Talk:Elvish languages

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Contents 1 Initial discussions 2 Elven? Language or merely writing? 3 Hard G 4 About the Tree. 5 WP:EL 6 Pronunciation

[edit] Initial discussions

In the worlds of Tolkien, the adjective "elven" is widely used: elven lore, elven kings, etc. I am not an expert in Tolkien's worlds, so I am wondering whether all wiki-Tolkien articles must replace "elvish" by "elven", or there is a delicate difference in the terms, invisible to a non-native Elvish and English speaker :-) (ha-ha only serious) Mikkalai 06:54, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

According to the English language, "Elvish" is the correct term. Tolkien's "Elven" is 'incorrect'. Then again so was Dwarves before the professor introduced this plural instead of Dwarfs. Personally I use 'An Elven King', 'Elven folk' etc. when referring to Tolkien's Elves, but use 'Elvish language', 'Elvish folk' etc. when referring to Elves in general. — Jor 10:00, Jan 7, 2004 (UTC)

I don't think people'd mind either of the terms (my English - Dutch dictionary includes both 'Elven' and 'Elvish'), but please don't use Elfin… — Jor 10:09, Jan 7, 2004 (UTC)

Tolkien did use elvish, and was quite annoyed when the publisher "corrected" it to elfish for the first edition (see the Note on the Text in current Houghton Mifflin editions of FotR). Salsa Shark 10:11, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

He used both Elvish and Elven in his text. Earlier texts used Elvish only, later text used mainly Elven, except in the term 'Elvish language'. — Jor 10:20, Jan 7, 2004 (UTC)

From Elfling: The English adjective for "of or relating to Elves" is "Elvish" (or "Elven" in certain cases, but for languages, endings in -ish are preferred). — Jor 10:23, Jan 7, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Elven? Language or merely writing?

As far as i've understood he merely created a new set of writing not a language? but maybe thats not what the article meant! Anyone care to update me on current events? They spoke Elven in LOTR but maybe that was not the language he wrote? Anyone care to give some simple translations or commonly used phrases? if they exist? I'm lost :(!

Resources for Tolkienian Linguistics Tolkien created both a language and a script, though I don't think the language was developed enough to really use. I don't know if what they spoke in the movies was anything Tolkien would have understood. Elvish script is fairly easy to learn and they're used to be a lot about it on Wikipedia. Where is that? - Chatoyant 16:33, 25 June 2005 (UTC)

Tolkien created several languages actually. In LOTR two Elven languages appear, Sindarin and Quenya. He also created at least three alphabets, two of which were used inside his fiction by the Elves (Tengwar and Sarati). The third was a "new English alphabet". Jordi·✆ 19:20, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A sample of Sindarin Elvish: "Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo!" Translation: "A star shines upon the hour of our meeting." It's a common, if beautiful and ornate, greeting amongst the Elves in Middle-Earth. -Kasreyn 08:51, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Factually incorrect. This is Quenya, as spoken in the 3rd Age (QE)--Elistir 10:10, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

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"Josh, "The Emperor", from Gene Simmons' Rock School spoke Elvish."

Should this be included? The question really needs to be asked: Which one? If this cannot be correctly answered, then this piece of trivia should be deleted.

The elvish languages of Tolkien are not limited to Middle Earth. Would it be more proper to call them the "Elvish Languages of Arda"?

The link to the "The Tolkienian Linguistics FAQ" is somewhat idiosyncratic in its presentation and perhaps should not have such a prominent position in the link list? Maybe it can stay where it is and be named "Elvish Linguistic Fellowship’s Tolkienian Linguistics FAQ" (or something similar) to reflect its singular viewpoint?

I think I have to disagree about calling them "The Elvish Languages of Arda". While you're right that within the Tolkien milieau, it is more correct to say they are of Arda, it's probably less encyclopedic. It's confusing to the layperson (ie., people who don't reread the Silmarillion yearly like some of us ;), and plus "Middle-Earth" is a pretty widely-accepted identifying term for the entire corpus of Tolkien's works, not just the actual geography of his worlds. I know, it's not exactly that correct from an Elf's viewpoint, but from the viewpoint of someone who has only seen the Peter Jackson movies and wants to learn more, we would do a disservice to introduce confusing terms like "Arda" too quickly. Just my 2 cents... -Kasreyn 05:25, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hard G

"The letter g is always pronounced in the hard form, as in giant. For instance, go is pronounced Joe."

That just doesn't seem right. The g in giant is IPA [ʤ] (voiced postalveolar affricate), and is traditionally called "soft G" in English. The hard form of G is IPA [g] (voiced velar plosive), like the initial consonant of get.

The problem is that I am not familiar with "Elvish languages" so I don't know if the description or the examples are wrong, but something needs to be fixed here. --Adolar von Csobánka (Talk) 18:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The article on Sindarin suggests that the IPA value is [g] so the description is correct and the examples are not - but I'd be happy if someone checked this @ a more reliable source before I correct this in the article. --Adolar von Csobánka (Talk) 18:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

To quote Tolkien;

"G has only the sound of g in give, get: gil 'star', in Gildor, Gilraen, Osgiliath, begins as in English gild." - LotR, Appendix E

I don't know IPA, but it is 'g' as in 'give' rather than as in 'gem'. Thus, the examples in the article are wrong. --CBD 15:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About the Tree.

a) Quenya. There's should be a difference between Pre-record Quenya (as sucessfully examined by HF) that leadst to Quenya Vanyarin (Quendya) and Quenya Noldorin (Classic Quenya). The latter will lead also to the Exilic Quenya (and possibile if we want to insert it, Quenya 3rd Age).

b) Common Eldarin. With the division of the CE branch, we have the Pre-record Quenya and the Common Lindarin. The latter will differentiate in Common Nandorin and Common Telerin.

c) Common Telerin > Old Sindarin >

a)North Sindarin Branch > Mithrim

b)South Sindarin Branch >

a)Doriathrim (Doriathrin is another language devised before the 40s)

b)Falathrim (which is the Western Branch of the Sindarin family, this branch is the one we usaully call "Sindarin". | Falathrin is another language present in the Etym.)

--Elistir 10:08, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:EL

The external links of many and varied flavours need to be reviewed with WP:EL, particularly in the light of "WP is not a link farm" and the nature of the article, while biased towards Tolkien, is about elven languages, of which Tolkiens are just the most famous there of. Any comments or should I just dive right in? Shot info 03:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

This entire section is irrelevant to a broadbrush discussion on elvish (elven) languages across fantasy literature. I probably should be removed to an article on Tolkien's invented languages, specifically Quenya or Sindarin. Shot info 04:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)