Talk:Elián González

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Particularly, the claim that Cuban police execute those who attempt to leave Cuba is ENTIRELY false, and if it was going to be displayed, ought to have a source. The Cuban government may imprison them, and certainly excludes them from being able to partake in social or political roles or find jobs, but there are no executions as of the last few years.

"Last few years"? Thank God the murdering of people who wish to flee communist Cuba has slowed down. Jtpaladin 13:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

zxDoes anyone know his father's name? The article doesn't mention it. ? kcar1986

"Escaped"? He was kidnapped at great risk to his life, for chrissakes.

"Kidnapped"? Yes, everyone who escapes tyranny has been kidnapped. Jtpaladin 13:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

How do we know Mr. Gonzalez was loyal to the Cuban government? Bear in mind that criticism of the goverment is a crime in Cuba, so merely not making anti-government statements is no proof of loyalty: it may be motivated entirely by fear of imprisonment. Also, there were newspaper reports that Mr. Gonzalez's parents (2 of the boy's grandparents) were arrested and kept in custody during the man's trip to the US. Also, no Americans (other than those who agreed with forcible repatriation) were ever allowed to speak to the man without a Cuban handler present.

  • There's another issue besides US-Cuban relations, too. The boy's father had legal custody of the child, and the mother had attempted to flee with the boy without his consent. (Whether she had a political/economic motive or was just doing the same kind of parental kidnapping unfortunately common elsewhere is left to one's own judgement.) As a result, those interested in "Father's Rights" issues took up this particular cause as well.
No, the mother had legal custody of the child. She and the father were legally separated.
  • As far as Mr. Gonzalez's loyalties, no one can really know them but him - still, I think one can make a clear case that he had no desire to emigrate, as he had ample opportunity to do so while in the US. (As I recall, the child's grandparents also made trips here to see Elian, which rather casts the "in custody" story in a questionable light.) -- April

The grandparents came under Cuban supervision.

Summary of arguments on each side:

Stay in US

  1. Mother died to save son from totalitarian regime, and her wishes should be respected.
  2. Boy will enjoy freedom in US
  3. Legal appeals had not yet been exhausted; issue should be settled by courts, not federal agency.
  4. No way to tell father's wishes, as Cuban gov't forbade any unmonitored communication.
  5. Father may have been pressured, as his parents were put in gov't custody during the affair.

Return to Cuba

  1. Children should be with their father (if mother is dead).
  2. Federal agency has jurisdiction, not courts.

I changed all references from "Elián" to "Elian". I believe "Elian" is correct, and a search of Cuban web pages has a preponderance using "Elian". Tempshill 02:54, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Elián González is correct. If you need proof, Google shows:
elián -elian site:cu - 3,610
elian -elián site:cu - 247

--Wik 22:58, Nov 7, 2003 (UTC)

  • "Elián González" (accents on both) is correct (conforme a aclaración solicitada en w:es). –Hajor 04:47, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  • "Elián González" is correct, as shown in CNN in Spanish and the NY Times. Ruiz 05:12, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  • "Elián González" Is the correct form in spanish...but, I'm not sure of the policy finally taken with foreing names, to keep the spelling, or to eliminate the graphic accents? Of one thing I'm sure, either you put both accents, or you eliminate both (and also all the accents in all other foreing names) --User:AstroNomer
Excellent; thanks everyone for the help. Tempshill 05:49, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Anti-Cuba bias

I removed this comment from the article:

Ironically, Cuba's official ideology calls for the abolition of the family.

It is blatantly false. The Cuban constitution explicitly endorses the family as the fundamental unit of society and treats it as the basis of economic activity and child-rearing. The only thing that could be interpreted as "anti-family" is the provision of state funded child-care. [1]. Unfortunately, I could not find any other english translation of the constitution, but based on my limited Spanish, this seems to be accurate. AdamRetchless 02:29, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

I think that this article is incredibly biased and probably contains a lot of anti-Cuba/Castro misinformation. This was introduced on May 8. I pulled out the most blatant lies, but I don't have the time to do all the research to identify the rest of it. Maybe the "old-timers" would care to clean this up? AdamRetchless 02:40, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

  • With so many hot button topics touched by this article, the only way to address the bias accusations is write it so that both sides see it as equally biased against them. B.Wind 05:47, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mired in POV

This article makes global warming look pristine. It's highly biased in favor of the Florida Cuban communitiy viewpoints and against the view of a majority of U.S. citizens of that time that Elian belonged with his natural father, no matter where his father came from. The Cuban community indeed had very strong political motivations to prevent the boy's transfer back to a land they vehemently and justifiably hated. The political pressures from this community influenced the Gonzalez family to break federal law (or at best, flout it). The cries about some atrocity to "liberty" being perpetrated are laughable--a liberty to keep other people's children doesn't quite exist and never will.

Someone needs to get out their NPOV scissors and go to work here. -- Stevietheman 04:20, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Interestingly, the "official ideology calls for the abolition of the family" bit is still in the article. What the hell? glasperlenspiel 08:34, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)

This is clearly a non-NPOV article. I'm placing the NPOV template, and adding a link to Gabriel Garcia Marquez's account of the story.Orzetto 12:23, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What is the section on "Stereotypes" doing there? It has nothing to do with the actual controversy, and seems to be just another attempt to sway sympathy towards the Batista Cubans. (It's not accurate to call them "Miami Cubans" or "Florida Cubans"; there are Cubans in Miami who are not members of the Batista group, they just aren't very vocal.) It's easy to pick and choose out-of-context statements that don't show the full picture.

I agree, and I removed the way-over-the-top Castro comparisons. I think the whole section should be deleted, or perhaps reworked into a discussion of the heated discussion in the media, and quotes from some of the critics of the tone of the discussion. No copouts like "some argue..." Also, calling a bunch of people "crazies" is not stereotyping. Pfalstad 20:42, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete the section and pare all political arguments on both sides to a minimum. If there is going to be a discussion on the news coverage of the matter, there should be a comparison of the national coverage in the US vs. coverage in the Miami area, which was very different. Miami's news coverage bordered on advocacy for the "Miami family." B.Wind 04:29, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 'Stereotypes'

Some argue that the media coverage of the affair couched their reports with stereotypes which would not have been tolerated toward any other ethnic group: Time magazine described the Cuban-led Miami city government as a "banana republic"; the May 1 issue of Newsweek contained phrases like "the fiery Marisleysis" (Elián's cousin, who was seen as a maternal figure to the boy) and "the hotheads around Lázaro"; the New York Times called the Miami Cubans "haters"; the Chicago Tribune called them "crazies"; Pat Oliphant, America's most widely syndicated editorial cartoonist, drew an ape-like Lázaro thumping his chest.

'Haters', 'Crazies' - nothing to do with 'stereotypes'. This may as well sit here until someone is willing to rewrite it, or the talk page is cleared. I like Pfalstad's suggestion re: 'the heated discussion in the media'. Colonel Mustard 23:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I think though a legitimate argument could be made for including the "banana republic" remark and the "ape-like Lazaro" caricature in the article. I could not imagine a mainstream newspaper in another case portraying a black person as an oversized monkey or call a minority neighborhood in a major city a banana republic. Thats just me, but it seems pretty unique to this matter and the Cuban-American community in Miami. Because they are conservative Republicans, possibly? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]]).

  • No, not because of their conservatism or being Republicans (at least one of the "Miami family" is a registered Democrat), but because the media outside of southern Florida could not relate to the passion of the Cuban (exile) community, which felt genuine pain, first in the battle for custody, and then after the Elián "retrieval."
    • The arguments on both sides are straightforward: Juan Miguel had custody of Elián, and once he requested the son's return, international law required that the US government comply with his request; Elizabeth Brotons sacrificed her life so that her son could escape Castro's clutches and taste the cup of freedom.
    • While the local English-language media played it fairly down the middle (but to some of the residents, it was mainly favoring the "Miami family"'s position), Spanish-language media in southern Florida had equally stereotypical representations of the "Ugly American" US government and how the father was a "puppet on Castro's strings." 147.70.242.39 22:19, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, it is easy for people outside of Florida to overlook: the majority of Miami-Dade County is Hispanic (in Hialeah, it's 90%). Furthermore, about half of the residents of the city of Miami were either born in, or descended from people who were born in, Cuba. 147.70.242.39 22:19, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ed Poor tries to balance pro-Castro POV with anti-Castro POV

I made a number of edits. Here is the latest:

Deleted from article:

But, instead of following procedure and placing him at a facility until his status could be resolved ...

This sounds like someone's point of view. It should be omitted or attributed.

I mean, really! Is there some policy AGAINST letting a young child whose mother died saving him from tyranny to live with relatives while his case goes through the courts?

Or is the advocate who wrote the above implying that procedure should have been followed for EVERY ASPECT of Elian's case? (If so, why did the federal government by-pass the courts and deport the boy without waiting for his relatives to finish the appeals process? Since when are family disputes settled by the executive branch?) --user:Ed Poor|Uncle Ed (talk) 18:33, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)

Answering Ed's parenthetical question: international treaty trumps state law, according to Article Six (and others) in the United States Constitution, and the US is a signatory to a treaty that requires the return of an unattended international child to a custodial parent upon the parent's request. Also, Elián was never formally admitted to the United States (under wet foot/dry foot he was supposed to be repatriated immediately, but the Coast Guard took him to a medical facility first). In addition, the "Miami family"'s appeals made it to the Supreme Court twice, and the Justices disposed of them promptly each time. 147.70.242.39 22:26, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edgardo Mortara

This reminds me of the infamous Edgardo Mortara case of the nineteenth century. 204.52.215.107 13:53, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

I don't see the parallel or the relevance. B.Wind 05:28, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Effect on the election of 2000?

Could this event have had an effect on the outcome of the 2000 election? Bush won Florida by a razor thin margin, and the White House's handling of the Gonzalez situation. Could the retribution have cost Gore the election? An interesting question.

  • Considering that the official "winning margin" in Florida was only 527 votes, it is quite conceivable. On the other hand, there are some who assert that the Gonzalez situation was irrelevant since it was the US Supreme Court that decided the Florida outcome, and therefore the Presidential election, by a 7-2 vote and a 5-4 vote in Bush v. Gore. B.Wind 05:36, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

One must consider the percentage of Democrat vs Republican voters in the Miami-Dade area. Traditionaly, Democrats have outnumbered Republicans by more than 80%, and this fact is expressed in voting history since 1960. However, a voter of any party will likely never vote for his/her favorite candidate if such an individual does something to damage the relationship, i.e. the damage done to the Cuban community by the Clinton Administration in the wake of Elian Gonzales. The more than half the population of that area who traditionally voted Democrat instead voted for Bush or the other candidates.

Considering that Al Gore took the position that Elian should be allowed to remain in the U.S., in contrast with Clinton, I doubt that this issue had that much effect. Jtpaladin 13:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Happy Elian" picture

The article claims the white house released the "happy Elian" photos. It's easy to find them via a Google image search, but the pics I found claimed copyright by the AP or by UPI. If anyone ever finds a US Government photo of "happy Elian", it'd be a good picture to insert in the article. Tempshill 18:54, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Hey, how about a nice picture of a happy Elian wearing his Young Communist uniform with Fidel Castro hovering over him? Will that make the grade? Jtpaladin 13:37, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Birthday?

His birthday is also listed on January 19th. ???

[edit] Penis incident

Does anyone have any information on this odd situation wher ehis grandmother pinched his penis? I heard this a while ago and it sounds so odd that I can't believe it really happened.

  • According to the local (Miami) media, it did happen... but this article should stick as closely as possible to the main points of the matter. For that reason, I applaud the authors for not delving into the apparent emotional instabilities that were exhibited by Marisleysis while Elián was living with her. B.Wind 05:42, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Emotional instabilities? Do you know anything about Cuban family culture at all? --TJive 21:06, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
That was the term that was bandied about the press (along with "emotional breakdowns") - and is very perjorative, not to say POV, regardless of the personal attack by the previous post. B.Wind's knowledge (or lack thereof) of Cuban family culture is irrelevant as he(?) was pointing out a plus on the article in the POV department. 147.70.242.39 22:33, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Marisleysis/Psychological treatment

The confinement of the "fiery" Marisleysis to the mental facility several times during this episode should be included though. When someone gets checked into a mental asylum and kids are involved, that is a legitimate news story.

  • Please sign with ~~~~ whenever you post to a talk page, even if you haven't logged in.
Please see my comment about the lack of mentions of the emotional breakdowns of Marisleysis and the "penis incident," amongst others in the previous section. If there is a mention of her "breakdowns," the impact should be minimized to reduce POV. 147.70.242.39 22:36, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rewritten for neutrality

I have rewritten the article to eliminate many words like "claimed", which was, by the way, uniquely applied to the Government position, never to that of the relatives. I have cut out many diversions which were really not to the point, and tried to take as neutral a tone as possible in this difficult matter. I've also eliminated as many errors as possible, such as the "federal family court judge". There are no such things.--Wehwalt 17:12, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Movie

I believe there was a movie made about this whole story, but I can't remember what it was called, only that it has aired on Fox/ABC Family and I think Lifetime, but beyond that, I'm not sure. Perhaps someone who knows more could add something about that. Morhange 07:40, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] =

There's some mention, not sure where, in a news site, that Elian is now currently a member of the Communist Youth in Cuba, and sent a get-well card to Fidel Castro, addressing him as "grandpa fidel"

[edit] Missing information about political context

Many news articles and editorials at the time wrote that the reason elected officials were so concerned with the affair was that Florida was a swing state, and the votes of the Cuban-American population in Florida was therefore very important — as indeed turned out to be the case in the 2000 U.S. presidential election. The article needs to discuss this, which it currently does not. —Lowellian (reply) 02:42, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

At one time it included some such information. Most of it violated WP:WEASEL and there was very few if any sources from the time. It is easy to see the affair through the prism of the 2000 election. But editors who posted such things as the Elian affair made the difference in the 2000 election found their posts challenged and deleted as impossible to prove. Give it a try if you like; we'll see what editors think of what is posted.--Wehwalt 02:57, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Bush v. Gore rendered such supposition moot. It was the 7-2 and 5-4 Supreme Court votes, not any "increased turnout of Cuban-American voters," that ultimately decided the U.S. Presidential election of 2000, and the controversy extended far beyond the borders of Miami-Dade County in Florida (remember the "butterfly ballot"?).147.70.242.40 20:34, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some references for Elain's impact on the 2000 election.

For those that have been trying without success to get Elain's impact in the article, here are some references that appear to be "fair and balanced", or at least impartial.

Pre-Election discussion of Elian impact. 400,000 voters, 14 % shift, is 56,000 additional votes for Bush and against Gore. http://www.sptimes.com/News/110500/Worldandnation/Elian_swings_Cuban_vo.shtml

Another pre-election discussion of the Elian impact. http://www.fairvote.org/op_eds/elian.htm

FIU report of the Elian impact on the 2000 Election and on Gore not campaigning in the Cuban-American community. http://metropolitan.fiu.edu/downloads/battleground_20florida.pdf

Textbook excerpt about the Elian impact. "However, in 2000, in the wake of Elián's forcible return to Cuba, more than 80 percent of Miami Cubans voted for Bush, who won Florida, and thus the presidency, by only a few hundred votes." http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/9742/9742.ch01.html

Some non-Cubans in Miami (at least me) were offended not by the return of Elian, but by the WAY it was done. An armed ambush on Easter weekend without even an attempt at getting him through more polite means, after Waco and the FBI shooting, seemed like overkill. The boy's face seeing that gun did not help Gore's chances. Not likely to be a strong factor in the non-Cuban vote results, but likely more than 527 votes worth of impact. However, that is POV and I will not add it in the article. CodeCarpenter 20:30, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RFC: Cuban Rafter Phenomenon link

Can I ask editor Wehwalt why he/she thinks that the University of Miami's excellently constructed site - The Cuban Rafter Phenomenon: A Unique Sea Exodus, which is a detailed study of the rafter phenomenon of the 1990s, is of no interest to readers here? This site provides essential background information. Given that the article itself attempts to describe some of the back story behind this, it is clear that the link meets Wikipedia:External links criteria. Giving people access to excellent, relevant resources like this is exactly what Wikipedia is all about.-- Zleitzen(talk) 06:33, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd be fine with it if it were in the rafter article. I do not think it is appropriate for Elian's article, which should be as closely focused on him as possible. I suggest you add it, if it is not already, to the rafter article and put a see also to that WP article. But I have fought to keep this article narrowly focused on Elian, including the external resources. Additionally, Elian wasn't a rafter in the 1990's. What do others think?--Wehwalt 12:25, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

To clarify, you are saying that this extensive University of Miami archive site [2], obviously designed with great care as an educational tool to help us learn and understand the rafter situation in the 1990s, is not appropriate for the Elián González page who was a rafter himself in the 1990s? [3]. Every lengthy study of González's story including our article includes a summary of the events described in the website - which has all manner of features such as timelines, maps, historical documents, analysis of the phenomenon etc. Here is the introduction to the site;

Welcome to The Cuban Rafter Phenomenon: A Unique Sea Exodus. In this digital archive you can explore the experiences of tens of thousands of citizens who have left Cuba in small boats, homemade rafts and other unusual craft.

I'll pass this on for other users to comment.-- Zleitzen(talk) 14:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Third opinion. The link in question is not specifically about Elian Gonzalez, and doesn't seem to mention him at all on first glance. It is not relevant to this article, so it doesn't matter how well it was designed. You should add it somewhere else, if anywhere. Grouse 15:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Elian does not fit into the link, but the link would be a great start on a currently non-existent article, Cuban Rafters or Balseros (rafters). There is plenty of information on the Mariel Boatlift page, and specifics on the wet foot/dry foot policy, but no general page for the rafters and their history. Your document could fit well there, and the page itself would be able to tie in many of these other topics, and reference the plight of other rafters from Haiti for example. Do you think you could make that page? You appear to be able to find the details and write coherently, so it would be a good project for you. I have created three pages and one project, and those have felt much better when done than just adding links that might not get noticed at all. Be Bold and give it a try! CodeCarpenter 16:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

You are right that a Balseros (rafters) article is necessary. But presently I don't really need another project as I have enough on my plate. I've made over 10,000 edits to Cuba articles so far - created scores of articles on the subject - I work on Portal:Cuba and Wikipedia:WikiProject Cuba - have worked to bring Cuba articles to featured status - have written Cuba-United States relations from scratch and currently monitor over 1300 Cuban related articles on my watchlist. With that in mind, and having what I think is a good idea of what is relevant to these topics and how to educate readers about subjects, I believe the link is relevant, refers to material within the article, meets Wikipedia policy and fits with wikipedia's goal of providing free access to educational information. If people consider that they have a better understanding of link policies, and how to develop articles on Cuba related topics, then I'll bow to their better judgement and not restore the link, which I personally think is a needlessly pedantic assessment and a shame to readers, who will be less able to access the relevant resource.-- Zleitzen(talk) 17:38, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Fifth opinion. (I am commenting here in response to the request for impartial editorial input as requested at Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/History_and_geography.) A dilemma here is that there is in-depth wiki information on the Elian case, but hardly any information on the overall Cuban exile phenomenon. Indeed, the “rafter” entry in both wiki and wiktionary fails to mention this alternate meaning of the word. The external website appears to be informative and useful, but I agree that it is not about Elian in any significant way. However, the Elian page had no pointer to Cuban_exile, which I have now added to the “see also” section and that page (though very brief) in turn has a pointer to the external rafter web site. That, in my opinion, is a more suitable location for that pointer, and it will allow anybody who is interested in the rafter aspect of Elian’s story to find the information. Indeed if you do a google search on "wiki cuban rafter" you will find that page and hence in turn the external site (if you do "cuban rafter" in google the site will come second, so it's not as if it's hard to find for people). If a new article is written on rafters in general, then Elian’s page could have that as well in the “see also” section. --Psm 00:23, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I created a stub for Balseros (rafters). BTW, there´s a documentary with that title: Balseros (film). It is a superb documentary Randroide 15:07, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment via RfC: Neutral party, came via RfC. The site is good but not for the Elián page, it goes on Cuban exile, where it is now, or related articles on the rafter phenomenon should they be created. I added a link to this page to the "See also" on the exile page as well. Hope that helps. IvoShandor 12:31, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment via RfC: If the site does not talk specifically about Elian, IMHO it should no be linked. An easy solution: To write in the Elian article that "Elian was a Balsero". I pasted the link there. Randroide 15:07, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the link does not belong here; a link to the article where it is linked is much better. --NE2 00:12, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Whilst I'm here

Whilst we're here discussing the removal of an external link, could Wehwalt explain why he/she removed the well sourced section which detailed the impact the case had on the 2000 election added by Code Carpenter? Also, a "see also" link to a similar case added by someone was removed without sufficient reason, and with no policy precedent. Is this page operating in a vacuum, where wikipedia norms and standards do not apply? If further sources are required, which meet WP:V, linking the Elián case to the 2000 election, how about this which states;

The Elian Gonzalez episode resulting in Cuban-Americans voting for Bush in 2000 to an extent not accounted for by neither their past voting behavior, demographic characteristics nor changes in party registration between 1996 and 2000.

-- Zleitzen(talk) 22:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Because after discussion upstream, such info was not added or was deleted from the article. I'm simply following what I believe to be the editorial consensus on this point. In addition, this article is about ELIAN GONZALEZ. It is narrowly focused on the boy. With the exception of a contextual introductory section, it is all about Elian. Such material may do well in the various articles about the election.--Wehwalt 22:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Hrm. The last I saw of the discussion upstream was that there was the use of weasel words and a lack of citations. Two months back, I provided in this talk page the citations used, and noone commented on their lack of suitability. Therefore, the last thrust of the discussion upstream was that these sources and their commets could be used. You called my section speculation, implying there is no speculation in Wikipedia, but I can point to plenty of other well-sourced speculations in 9-11, Pearl Harbor, Napolean Bonaparte, William Shakespeare, and let's say on the random button as well. I will not revert, but I will offer to others to revert if they feel the section did not merit removal. The idea is valid, pollable, and therefore in my opinion encyclopedic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CodeCarpenter (talk • contribs) 23:00, 14 March 2007 (UTC).

The Political ramifications are the essence of Elián's story. It is why there is an article on him in the first place, and not on the many others who either made the journey or failed, including children in identical situations. There are numerous other factors which should be added the article as well, the intense Cuban American political climate in Miami during the 1990s, the grandmother's trip, the Sister O'Laughlin connection, the role of the CANF and many more. But the impact on the 2000 election is so important, tangible and verifiable that it seems extraordinary that someone took the trouble to give it some context - with sources that met WP:RS - only to see it removed as irrelevant.-- Zleitzen(talk) 23:42, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I take your points. But by your logic, Zleitzen, the Elian article could have Elian as an active character in only a small part of it, with a long run up and a long wind down, including in the latter the studies as to what part the affair may have had on the 2000 Election, the lawsuits, the museum, who knows what else. I think this is a fine article at present dealing with Elian himself and concentrating on the time when he was in the US. I continue to maintain that such studies are inherantly speculative, but I will of course bow to the collective wisdom, if any (ha ha) of wikipedians. So lets see what other views are posited.--Wehwalt 00:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry but I don't think its a fine article. It's OK but it barely covers the period he spent in the US. There's no mention of the situation in the hospital concerning phonecalls and the channelling of the boy by a small section of the Miami family, there's no mention of the grandmothers week long trip which was at the centre of the story, there's barely a mention of Marisleysis and her dramatic role, there's no mention of the religious fervour that surrounded Elián wherever he travelled, Sister O'Laughlin is not mentioned, a key figure in the drama who "negotiated" between Elián's warring family and was suspected of taking payments and/or being intimidated by local activists etc etc.
The problem is, some of these points were mentioned in previous edits, but have been inexplicably removed. The way wikipedia works is that material is added, sometimes its poorly sourced and a bit rough. Provided it is not badly POV, false or off topic - which none of these were - it can be built on to create a better article. I don't have time to detail a fraction of the omissions, and this is not a priority article for me, but if someone else does - as Code Carpenter has with the impact on Florida politics - with sources - then they should remain to allow this article to grow. At present, the article is stifled and key details are being overlooked, I remember Beardo adding mention of the grandmothers that was removed without cause. My ideal article would be a thorough featured article that properly detailed Elian's life and time in the US, of which the raid was only one episode, alongside the surrounding political situation. That is what any detailed piece on Elián would be expected to provide. In cases such as this, where there is too much work and not enough time, my method is to wait for drive-by editors to add detail, which, providing it is helpful, can be cleaned up and sourced. I know the story inside out so I can tell if an addition is appropriate or not.-- Zleitzen(talk) 01:17, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I would tend to agree that details such as the grandmothers' trip, as well as details you haven't mentioned--Donato's journey from fisherman to family confidante, and even as talked-about possible mayoral candidate--should be included. But you have to build the body before you can build the wings, and what you are supporting is putting in material that may or may not be extraneous to the full article you envision, but certainly are extraneous today. Put in the details, and let's worry about the 2000 election later. Frankly, Zleitzen, given the expertise you tell us about in your previous post (I don't doubt it, people tend to get passionate about what they know about), you could have done a lot of what you propose in the time and space you have devoted to kvetching about my edits. I think there is a point at which this article could become overdetailed--i.e. it becomes a day by day chronology, but we aren't there by any means!--Wehwalt 01:29, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Just a thought, but what do you think of the idea of two articles? Keeping this one narrowly focused on Elian, with the additional materials I proposed, and having a second "Elian Gonzalez affair" or "Causes and effects of the Elian Gonzales affair".--Wehwalt 19:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV article

So many facts about the entire incident have been left out of the article in order to tilt it towards a pro-Castro and Clinton Administration point of view that it's an utter atrocity to call this a Wikipedia article. I added some details about the Federal break into the home where Elian lived and added the fact that Janet Reno lied about negotiations having broken down prior to the raid. No where does the article mention that Castro claimed he wouldn't use Elian for propaganda purposes yet that's exactly what he has been doing since he got Elian back into his hands. Nor does anyone mention that Castro ordered that the street that Elian lived on be fixed up and painted so the media would show what a "nice" place it is for Elian to live. There's also no mention that Al Gore broke ranks with Clinton and supported Elian remaining in the U.S. More needs to be done to balance this article. Jtpaladin 14:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I've reverted your edits. Your edits, which included deleting the info that a family court judge had revoked Lazaro's temporary custody, and your inserts, which included a comment that in Communist Cuba parents do not have parental rights like in the U.S., are wildly POV. I'm sure they are well intentioned, but please be more neutral.--Wehwalt 04:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
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