Talk:Elf

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In some mythologies there are also dark elves, sometimes known as Drow, which are wicked and evil. Elves are enemies of the goblins.

In what mythologies, outside of AD&D? AD&D is a gaming system, not a source of legitimate folklore. In much actual folklore, there is little distinction between elves, goblins, trolls, and other gremlins; they're all various kinds of little gremlins, or occasionally big gremlins, with (I think) no fixed speciation (as it were), as there is in Tolkien's works or those derivative of them. --LMS

While the term Drow may well be specific to D&D, I am quite sure that dark elves appear in other mythologies.

--71.193.137.200 05:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I have seen references to "dark elves" in books on Norse mythology.As for the name Drow, I have never heard of it. Your are quite correct that elves, goblins, trolls, etc blend together. I suspect that many are regional variants, e.g., trolls may be the Norwegian version of elves. Poor scholarship and migration of peoples have probably confused once-separate traditions. -- hajhouse

No, it is true that the "races" blend together. However, they are not regional variants. In the old days, a Scandinavian farmer distinguished between a variety of creatures, such as tomte, troll, Nixie, wight, elf, etc. The difference was that they represented different ideas. The Tomte lived at the farm and helped the farmer during the night. The Troll was the danger that lurked in the forest or in the mountain. The Nixie was the danger that dwelt in rivers and lakes, the wights was a general name for different spritits in nature, and the elves were females that could bee seen dancing over bogs, in the evening, when the mist rose. The Huldra was the female that seduced men who walked in the forest, etc. etc. Wiglaf

In norse mythology there also were dark elves called svartalfar. Ausir 20:56, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

In Norse mythology, the elves are regarded as the alfs and dwell in Alfheim, or the realm of the light elves. As recognized in J.R.R. Tolkien's literary masterpiece The Lord of the Rings, the elves are seen as tall and beautiful beings that are far superior to Men in lore, architecture, song, and magic. They too will have apart in Ragnarok as they fight their evil counterparts, the dark elves who dwell in the underground world of Svartalfheim.

                                           Sal Della Villa- June 4, 2004

Contents 1 Elves and Trolls... 2 The Drow. 3 Paolini? 4 Other 5 Fixed the link 6 Just A Comment 7 The Shoemaker and the Elves 8 Removed from Elves at Christmas 9 Revision to Fantasy Elves 10 Moving content to subarticles 11 Etymology 12 The "Elves in popular culture" article 13 Pointed Ears 14 Elves, not Christmas 15 Elvis 16 Yes, this needs peer review! 17 Tuatha Dé Danann 18 A slight problem 19 Mythology and morals 20 Elves in modern fantasy bible reference 21 How do we know elves are Norse? 22 Who Believes in Them???? 23 "Elves in computer games" section. 24 Legolas rather than Elrond?

[edit] Elves and Trolls...

There is a distinct difference between Elves and Trolls.

Elves in Norse Mythology are portrayed as fair to behold, slim and possessed of magical powers. A troll, or Grendel, is a large brutish creature with a love of human flesh.

In folklore Elves are portrayed as Pixies and are still generally better-looking then trolls. Personally, an Elf is Tolkien's representation, as are Trolls or Grendels. The 'Elves' and the shoe-maker are nothing more than pixies.

No offence to anyone, but these different races have only been merged and confused by people telling stories, folk who are not altogether interested in the true source. It's much like Chinese Whispers, where a little of the truth changes with each retelling.

When we're talking about fiction and folklore, every source is a true source. The shoe-maker elves and similar diminutive, industrious elf traditions (Santa's elves come to mind) actually have a lot more to do with Norse elves than English pixies. Likewise, Norse trolls varied between dwarf and giant, mischievous and evil. -- Perey 04:25, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] The Drow.

The Drow are chiefly in Dungeons and Dragons and do not appear in any myth or religion. They were based loosely on the concept of a Dark Elf... or Evil Elf.

They live underground, have black skin and white hair, practising torture frequantly.

See Drow for connections to real folklore, both in name and form. -- Perey 16:50, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Is an elf with its head between its legs a goblin?

[edit] Paolini?

This view is shared by Christopher Paolini "Eragon" who also believed in the Norse elves and has written about elves in his book.

Is this of particular significance? It seems like a poorly-written "me too" inclusion of someone's favoured author. Recommend that someone familiar with Paolini revises it, expands it to explain why Paolini's not just another author who's "written about elves", or deletes it entirely if need be.

Everybody has a prefrance of their"elf." However, I have seen very little where sites where a elf was there and it didn't have green skin, strong, slender body, swift, and magical. However, since these are imaginary, it is pretty hard to tell. The only thing we can acually include in this topic is origin of the word, and, what some of the common "forms" poeple like to think of them as. In short, there can be an infinite amount of "elves" since they live on in our minds, not in the forest. Heck, one can imagine one had a telephone morphed into them for a hand, green skin, lives in the forest, have a computer for a right arm, and call it an elf. Why? Simple. As different as most people think elves are, they all live in forests and are magical and strong, with the exception of the "Drow" elves. They live underground and hate all things living and good, which is why they often kill each other, simply for the fact they hate everything living. If an elf DID exist, you know where the drow went. That's right. At each other's throats with a big blade in their hands.

I have Paolini's eragon right next to me, according to the description of an elf he gave, he gave one of the most common. Green skin, young looking, slender bodies, strong, able to do magic, and, OLD. According to the most common legends, they live hundreds of years. Hundreds. Although, they look over 900 years youngerXD

[edit] Other

Less popular sources talk of a battle between the elves and other mystical creatures. Elves in these stories are often depicted as small defensless beings living in trees. They are forced to this new habitat by loss of battle between the gnomes and pixies. Also in this tale pixies are described as fearsome beings with claws and blades at the tips of there wings.

[edit] Fixed the link

To the Wiki Commons page. --Kross 06:42, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)

I just wanted to say that I very much appreciated this article; while there may be room for improvement, as it stands it's an excellent piece of work.

[edit] Just A Comment

This article is fantastic. I've begun research on a fantasy world that I am creating for a series of novels, and this article has set me on track as far as Elves are concerned. I have a number of books on Elves set to arrive at a later date for more in-depth research, but this article, again, has set me off with a great start. - Matt S.

I agree; this article really is quite good. Harkenbane 10:57, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Shoemaker and the Elves

I removed this section from German folklore:

The Brothers Grimm fairy tale The Shoemaker & the Elves is probably the most famous original elf tale. The elves are only one foot tall in this story, naked, and like to work on shoes, as leprechauns do. When the shoemaker rewards their work with little clothes, the elves are so delighted, that they run away and are never seen again. (This tale is echoed in J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter stories: see below.)

These are not Elves, they are Heinzelmännchen, which is translated as "elf" into English. If it absolutely has to be mentioned in the article, it would be more appropriate under English folklore, since that is the only folklore where they are Elves.--Wiglaf 4 July 2005 16:18 (UTC)

May I propose that the paragraph is reinserted at the bottom of the section as:

In the Brothers Grimm fairy tale Der Schuhmacher und die Heinzelmännchen, a group of naked, one foot tall beings called Heinzelmännchen help a shoemaker in his work. When he rewards their work with little clothes, they are so delighted, that they run away and are never seen again. Even though Heinzelmännchen are akin to beings such as kobolds and dwarves, the tale has been translated to English as The Shoemaker & the Elves, and is echoed in J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter stories: see below.)

Moreover, we have the problem with the nisser being described as elves, although if anything, they are descendants from Norse dwarves and landvaettir. As they are the Nordic equivalents to Santa's elves, I believe that they deserve a notice and a link, though, as long as they are not classified as elves. And by the way: where do the Santa-elves come from?

I also found out that H. C. Andersen's fairy tale The Goblin and the Huckster (Danish: Nissen hos Spekhøkeren) in German is Das Heinzelmännchen bei dem Krämer.

Andersen has also written about an alf in The Elf of the Rose (Rosen-Alfen) and about elvere in The Elfin Hill (Elverhøi). Should probably be mentioned. --Salleman 4 July 2005 18:06 (UTC)

Go for it! :)--Wiglaf 4 July 2005 19:55 (UTC)

[edit] Removed from Elves at Christmas

I, on my side, removed the following from the Elves at Christmas section:

However, the elf legends are in fact, even older than Saint Nicholas, the bishop on whom Santa Claus was originally based. (One modern fantasy shows Santa's Elves as being the children whom Saint Nicholas resurrected after they had been murdered. By this miracle, they became immortal, never growing older.)

According to the Santa Claus article "In some images of the early 20th century, Santa was depicted as personally making his toys by hand in a small workshop like a craftsman. Eventually, the idea emerged that he had numerous elves responsible for making the toys"

As for the remark in parenthesis, it would be nice to know in what modern fantasy. --Salleman 5 July 2005 00:21 (UTC)

"In Dutch founded New York City, the traditions concerning Sinterklaas (now Santa Claus) continued, even though the black Peters sometime during the 19th century were converted to elves."

Deleted it because it is impossible. Before 1945 the Saint operated solo or with one servant (That's traditionally Dutch), furthermore the name Pete was not given to this figure before 1891. His appearance can be fixed to 1850. Before that he seems to have been a rather hard to identify character. Theodore W.

[edit] Revision to Fantasy Elves

Just changed the wording of the introductory paragraph to the fantasy elves, as most of it was redundant (the lengthy sentence on hobs and brownies having already been dealt with in the article). I did remove the reference to fairies, as "fairy" does not exclusively mean "pillywiggin" (insect-winged flower fairy). If you want to revert it, be my guest, but remember that the image of insect-winged fairies used in this article is becoming increasingly different than that of the fairy article, in which many different types of faeries are being mentioned (including, but not limited to, the elf equivalents in western Europe). -Iro

I made some rewording of your edit. I think you deleted some good prose. --Salleman 17:44, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Moving content to subarticles

There is no limit to the production of elves in popular culture. I think this article should focus on traditional elves, and I have created two subarticles for people to add their favourite elves in.--Wiglaf 17:45, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

I don't know who contributed this bit,

Although there has been debate, the words elf, álf and their relatives almost certainly come from the same Indo-European root *albh as the Latin albus (white).

but it is reasonably correct (it really is disputed, tho').

I have enough material at hand to expanded this by a sentence or two. Essentially, it can be related to a Vedic word for 'divine workman' and perhaps an Old Church Slavonic term for 'worker'. My own private theory is that this was name for a people who brought metal-working into the PIE lands (miners burrowing in the ground, the shiny metal they made (copper, perhaps gold, silver), even the shinyness of the glow of the forge fire.

But this is not the place for an exercise in Indo-European reconstruction. In all of the elf articles, I see there is etymological information, and this might be nicely combined into a daughter article. This article is long as it is. --FourthAve 04:16, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Well the guideline for a good article is that it should contain a section on etymology. It would be a great idea if you could write a subarticle on the etymology of elf and then link to it from the various articles (where you keep a line on the etymology).--Wiglaf 06:59, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The "Elves in popular culture" article

This article really should be re-incorporated back into the main Elf article. Why should a section entitled "Elves in popular culture" be entirely devoted to elves in RPGs?

I've deleted the RPG paragraphs. They're all already in the "Elves in Popular culture" article anyway. I think, rather than looking at modern fantasy fiction or roleplay, a discussion of elves in popular culture should examine how they've manifested in everyday life. I've started a replacement paragraph but it needs work.

Serendipitous 11:11, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pointed Ears

What about modern mythical creatures based on Elves? Straczynski's Minbari are based on Tolkien's elves, so there's clearly a lineage, and the Vulcans of Star Trek do have a passing elf connection. Spock is even called an "elf" in jest. Of course, Spock's appearance was more consciously drawn from Christian depictions of the devil. The pointed ears of elves seem to appear in very late literature, and the pointed ears seem to be common to all folkloric creatures. According to late folklore tradition, the pointed ears indicate the lack of a soul (as only humans had them). Satan's pointed ears, from the 4th century CE, were probably meant to recall an ass, however, not unlike the cursed King Midas of Hellenic tradition.

There's a lot of discussion about elf size and color, but not much on the ears, which are such a distinctive feature from at least the 19th century on. Someone out there must know where this tradition originates. Do ancient depictions of Norse demigods sport them? (I doubt it.)

[edit] Elves, not Christmas

I removed the following passages from the article:

In the Netherlands, Saint Nicholas (Sinterklaas) has traditionally been held to live in Spain and be helped by a Moorish servant called the "Black Pete(r)" (Zwarte Pieten).

In the Nordic countries Santa is instead helped by nisser, dwarflike, bearded wights, dressed in red and gray. Traditionally it was believed that one such being lived on every farm and protected it from mishaps. On Christmas Eve, one must give him a bowl of porridge or rice pudding to reward him for his work. Stories were told of how the nisse might otherwise take his revenge for not getting porridge by killing a goat.

In Iceland, from December 12 until Christmas Eve, the thirteen Yule lads (jólasveinar) visit homes, a lad each day for 13 days, and play tricks on the children, as well as leaving presents for them. They first appeared in the 17th century and are reportedly the sons of Grýla and Leppalúði, two trolls with a taste for human children. However, the tradition is by some thought to be of pre-Christian origin, as it has much in common with the celebrations of Saint Lucy in Norway and Sweden on December 13. [1]

None of these have anything to do with elves, but are about Santa's helpers. While elves are associated with this role in the US, UK and Canada, this does not merit the inclusion of non-elf-related Santa-helpers in other countries.

Peter ^Isotalo 18:39, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

I support the removal.--Wiglaf 19:03, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Though few of us think of Santa as an elf, only as an elf employer, Santa himself has historically breen referred to as an elf. See here and here. He's also referred to as an elf in Dickins's Pickwick Papers and the poem "'Twas the night before Christmas". A Google for "Santa Claus as an elf" returns 59 pages, so it might be an interesting lead to follow up on. — J M Rice 22:17, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

I think links should be made to Nisse/Tomte, since the Santa's elves are mentioned on the same page as elves in Scandinavian culture. I put one such in the scandinavian part, but it might fit better on Santa's Elves -- Allan 00:39, 21 September 2005 (CET)

I read in a book from the 50's that scandanavian children leave porridge for the Julnisse on Christmas eve (it's that, or get pranked, kind of a sprite trick or treat). Aren't the US "elves" a sort of watered down version of Julnisse? After all, American children by tradition leave cookies for "Santa Claus". 13 May 2006

[edit] Elvis

In Elvis impersonator, Elves is suggested as a Latin plural for "Elvis impersonator" (!). --Error 15:10, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Yes, this needs peer review!

I just removed the spurious and illegal Lord of the Rings screen shots, and now they have been restored. I don't want to start an edit war, but we've got to stop articles from being taken over by a bunch of inane fans. To you who think having screen shots from copyrighted motion pictures is legal just because there are a lot of them on Wikipedia, think again: it only means that there are a lot of idiots who try to turn articles into Fanzines. The photos are also spurious because they add absolutely nothing to the article. Stop it NOW!

This article has already been tagged for peer review. Keep it up, and it will also be tagged for for Clean-up and NPOV. — J M Rice 21:36, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

You have to work on that attitude of yours, a lot. The same thing could have been said in a much more constructive and positive way, but no one reacts well to insults, diminishing their views and contributions, and threats. While something can be arranged on the matter, you're pushing it the wrong way. Shauri 00:01, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

If you had not done the reverting, I would. Contributors who write like J M Rice are either blocked into politeness or banned. I will leave him a formal warning about no personal attacks.--Wiglaf 17:43, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

JMR's attitude aside, I do agree that it is quite pathetic to have Kate Blanchett in this article's intro, or even on Elves (Middle-earth) (which I notice has no images at all). These are "Peter Jackson's elves" at best; sure, one may be shown Elves (Middle-earth), but I really object to the tendency to treat Jackson as the 'de-facto-standard' of Tolkien illustration. Why can we not replace Blanchett with some PD Preraphaelite painting? dab (ᛏ) 13:49, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Ok, so Blanchett is "Alan Lee's elf", too. There is still a 200 year tradition of illustrating Germanic mythology, so it should be simple enough to come up with something suitable. dab (ᛏ)

OK, I give in. The image has been replaced.--Wiglaf 14:01, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I think the change is for the better, and in fact, I had suggested it myself yesterday at JMR's Talk Page. As I said above, something could be easily arranged on the matter, if proposed properly. I really like the way the article is currently illustrated, both in quality and depiction of its contents. Of course, if any of you find something better, please add it! - Shauri 22:47, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry -- I didn't mean that the "mythological" "tall high-elf" should be replaced by a little "children's tale" elf; I did like the idea conveyed by the Blanchette image, I was just saying that a similar image could be found in 19th century art. I'm not involved in this article anyway, so I'm just giving an outsider's opinion here :) dab (ᛏ) 12:48, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

If I had found such an image, there would be one. I resign from the task of finding a suitable image for this article, and hope someone else will find an image that everyone likes.--Wiglaf 12:54, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tuatha Dé Danann

One thing I've noticed is that, in the late 20th century, there's been a marked tendency for works of fantasy literature to tie elves not to their Norse origins, but rather to the entirely unrelated Tuatha Dé Danann (aka sidhe) of Celtic folklore. Examples of this include the Shadowrun roleplaying game, Aaron Allston's Doc Sidhe, and Mercedes Lackey's "Elves on the Road" stories. I find this new connection to be very interesting--as well as somewhat counterintuitive; someone coming from reading one of those books might be confused by seeing Celtic folklore go entirely unmentioned in this entry.

I've asked a few people about how this came about and the consensus seems to be that Tolkien is (indirectly) responsible, just because he described his elves in much the same way that Irish lore described the Tuatha Dé Danann, and subsequent writers just sort of picked up on this. It would be nice if someone could research it a little and add a bit to the "Elves in Modern Fantasy" section explaining how this link came into being. --Robotech_Master 18:31, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

When I made my first edit on this article in 2003, it did indeed describe the elves as Celtic myth. I don't think that Tolkien was responsible for this. The confusion is probably based on the fact that elves and Tuatha De Dannan have certain similarities. This resemblance may not be coincidental. The Celtic Kelpie tradition appears to be borrowed from Norse mythology, and it is possible that these traditions are also related. Celtic and Germanic tribes were once in close contact in northern Germany.--Wiglaf 18:59, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Although I find it more likely that Tolkien based his elves off Norse elves rather than the Tuatha Dé Danann, his letters show he was still visiting Ireland regularly as late as 1965. Although he didn't care much for the Irish language. The only elf-like beings (That I know of) resembling Tolkien's elves are the Ljósálfar (Light Elves), or the Tuatha De Danann. The latter is only different in name. For example, the Tuatha De Danann are ageless, heroic, skilled in the arts, and usually beautiful. They can also pass between the Otherworld and this world, much like Tolkien's elves parting from the world to the Undying Lands. In The Lord Of The Rings, when the Fellowship passes in to Lorien, they note how it seemed that time had stopped, though they lingered for a while. This is much like the Irish Tír na nÓg, Land of the Young. It would seem to me that he might have based some of the characteristics of the Elves off of both the Ljósálfar and the Tuatha De Danann, although we'll likely never know. Perhaps, if that speculation is true, that would explain why more and more, Elves are being uprooted from their Norse beginnings.

But, the Tuatha De Danann are to an extent are related to the Elves of Norse mythology. The Norse Elves if I'm right, were lesser deities, to whom one might pray to for say, healing. An example would be Kormaks Saga, Kormak had wounded Thorvard. The witch Thordis advised Thorvard to allow the elves to heal him, he sacrificed a bull at the elf's mound. The Tuatha De Danann were gods in the eyes of the celts. So, they are related to each other in a way, If I have that correct. --PatrickOg 02:55, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A slight problem

The C-Cube in the Artemis Fowl series is described as being 'obsolete underground, but fifty years ahead of the humans' development schedule' or something fairly similar. This has led me to the conclusion that fairies aren't fifty years ahead of humans, but only the C-Cube is. (Personally, I believe the fairies are around a century ahead of humans technologically) --Aerodotus 17:48, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mythology and morals

The distinction between "light-elves" and "dark-elves" is similar to the distinction between friend and foe which is generalized into the distinction between good and evil. Ancient myths probably played a role in forming or reinforcing a moral code. The Icelandic sagas show a lot of concern for what is right and wrong. Folklore often gives advice on being wary of strangers. --Jbergquist 19:15, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Elves in modern fantasy bible reference

I have my doubt about describing Tolkien's elves as what man might have become if original sin had not happened. For two reasons:

• This seems like an allegorical interpretation. Tolkien disliked allegory with a passion, so it is unlikely he meant it that way.
• There is no reference to original sin (in the biblical sense, though the fall of Numenor is caused by Sauron-fed pride) in Tolkien's work (at least the part that I know) so this sentence brings two things together which are in a different frame of reference.

Anyone disagree, or should I change the sentence? - ovvldc 09:22, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I strongly agree, considering that some of Feanor's early blasphemies come closer to a representation of original sin than anything humans do.

Strongly agree—Tolkien described the temptations (and fall) of the elves as different to humans, not nonexistent. -- Perey 02:31, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Done - ovvldc 23:10, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How do we know elves are Norse?

Given that the word elf and its cognates in other Germanic languages all go back to Proto-Germanic, what is the evidence for the claim that elves are specifically from Norse mythology as opposed to Germanic mythology? --Pfold 23:08, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who Believes in Them????

I DO. I have qualities of them, including powers. If u believe me, or can relate, come 2 my page and talk to me. --Divya da animal lvr 20:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC)--Divya da animal lvr 20:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Elves in computer games" section.

Here's my rationale for removing it:

• It was vulnerable (if it had not already succumbed) to a mass of unneeded shoutouts for various games where their elves are unremarkable.
• It is better done above, in the "Elves in modern fantasy" section; games are not such a special branch of fantasy regarding their treatment of elves to have their own separate heading.

Abednigo 23:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Legolas rather than Elrond?

Wouldn't Legolas be a better representation of a Tolkienesque elf? Legolas is more well known and iconic, and is completely elf rather than half-elf. Borisblue 02:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean the picture from Peter Jackson's adaption? Well, firstly, Elrond was at the time one of the greatest elf-lords in Middle-earth (except for Galadriel and perhaps Celeborn). Legolas was just a Sindarin prince of Mirkwood. What is more, Legolas does not really represent the elves so well as Elrond does, because he represents several misconceptions: Elves (in Tolkien) prefer to live in trees, and elves favor the bow. Elrond is a picture of the elf-lords remaining from the First Age, during the time that the Elves were at their "height", so to speak. Legolas is born into a generation of passing away. Elrond, what is more, though a half-elf by birth, chose to be counted among the elven kindred: therefore he was an elf. --Narfil Palùrfalas 14:00, 18 October 2006 (