Talk:Elf (Middle-earth)

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Contents 1 Not a single elf... 2 Thranduil 3 Middle-earth -> Arda 4 "not to be found in Tolkien's writings" ...except in LotR ,and the Etymologies, and... 5 spelling choices 6 Hair color 7 Capitalisation: Elves, elves, elf, Elf etc 8 What does this means? 9 Elfs? 10 Alcohol 11 Arwen the lastborn of her folk (in Jackson)? 12 Maeglin's non-grey eyes 13 Proposed move 14 Elves are Germanium based life forms? 15 "convenient rendering" 16 Definitions; Jargon 17 Expert help needed 18 Proposed merge 19 Sundering - the image 20 Elves first appear in The Hobbit  ??? 21 Elvish vs Elven

[edit] Not a single elf...

"it is specifically told that not a single Elf joined Morgoth or Sauron, the Enemies"

How about Maeglin? Ausir 23:57, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Or what about the entire Elvish origin of Orcs for that matter. — Jor (Darkelf) 00:19, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'll just delete this sentence. Ausir 00:21, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

And another edit conflict ;-) I was busy rewriting it. — Jor (Darkelf) 00:23, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

(cough). The elves where captured by Morgoth, and tortured and "brain washed" until they were faithful only to his service under the condition that he released them to Middle Earth. Try the Silmarrilion. I've read it three times.

[edit] Thranduil

What about Thranduil, of the Mirkwood Elves? He held one of the three rings... --Timo 23:59, Mar 13, 2004 (UTC)

No, he didn't. Ausir 00:01, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Are you sure? I think its in the appendix of LOTR. However, he was still important, as he ruled one of the elven forests, then after the Wars of the Rings, he and Elrond cured Mirkwood from the gloom --Timo 00:02, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)

It's not in the appendix. Mirkwood was mainly cleared by Celeborn of Lórien. Thranduil was mainly a fringe figure, a Sindar who had become almost like his Silvan subjects. Thranduil was not even king at the time of the forging of the Rings of Power: his father Oropher was. The holders of the Elves were Gil-galad (two rings) and Galadriel: Gil-galad's rings went to his lieutenants Elrond and Círdan. Círdan then gave his ring to Gandalf. — Jor (Darkelf) 00:19, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

To be more precise, there where many elven rings, but only three remained , the others where taken back by Sauron, when he saw, that the elves were getting to know, how to control these rings. DJ 08:45, 17 Aug 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Middle-earth -> Arda

Could someone move it back to Elves (Middle-earth)? While this disambiguation is not entirely correct, we chose it some time ago because Middle-earth is more commonly known than Arda. Besides, it's a bitch fixing all those double redirects :>. Ausir 09:59, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Seconded. The article ought to use the same disambiguation as the other M-e articles. [[User:Anárion|Image:Anarion.png]] 16:42, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Another option I’d be happy with is to move the main article to Quendi, making all other links redirects. [[User:Anárion|Image:Anarion.png]] 16:43, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Moved back. [[User:Anárion|Image:Anarion.png]] 21:58, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "not to be found in Tolkien's writings" ...except in LotR ,and the Etymologies, and...

"...for example the now clichéd special affinity with nature and bows, as well as explicit references to "pointy ears", are not to be found in Tolkien's writings..."

This is not entirely accurate. The Elves of LotR are and The Hobbit are mostly woodland Elves (from Lórien and Mirkwood). The Noldor in the Silmarillion have very little to do with the woods, but the Sindarin Elves of Doriath certainly had a strong affinity for nature. Anyway, the most prominent Elf in LotR is Legolas, a Wood-Elf with a bow, so the associations come rather naturally from that, even though it isn't fair to assume that all haves have an affinity with nature and bows (although the former more than the latter has some real basis in fact).

As for pointy ears, there are two distinct references. In Letters, at one point Tolkien refers to Hobbits as having "ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'" (27), though of course that doesn't have to imply that his own Elves have pointed ears. However, the Etymologies in The Lost Road are quite explicit: "(Some think this is related to the next and *lasse 'ear'. The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than [?human].)"

Basically, the pointy ear question has been a subject of some debate, but unlike the great mystery of the Balrog's wings, the evidence is actually fairly conclusive. They probably did have pointed ears, although based on practical considerations they must have been only slightly pointed and "leaf-shaped", not the huge, spiky things common especially in Anime.

Anyway, I'm not exactly sure how to correct this without going into great depth. I will probably add something about the pointy-ear thing eventually. --[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 17:52, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The pointed ears: yes, the [las]/[lassë]] quote is probably enough evidence. Also Tolkien's pictures of Elves seem to depict them with prominently drawn ears — suggesting they were pointed.

However, the Elves' affinity with nature is different than it is in AD&D: Elves simply were more in touch with it than Men, not as clichéd as the AD&D Silvan Elves.

Bows are not necessarily "fixed" on Elves either: with the exception of Beleg there is no special mention of bowmen under the Elves, and the Ñoldor in particular seem to have favoured swords and spears. [[User:Anárion|АПА́ДІОП]] 18:25, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that it's unfair to say that Tolkien's Elves necessarily have any special affinity with woods or with bows. But I think that the AD&D clichés most likely come from perceptions of Elves in LotR (specifically Legolas), and these perceptions are not entirely groundless. --[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 23:33, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I was bold and went ahead and added some material about this. Feel free to edit. --[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 00:04, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Good rewrites there. No need to change. [[User:Anárion|АПА́ДІОП]] 09:54, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] spelling choices

I noticed that the spelling Ñoldor has been used after a recent change. I don't think this is appropriate. The canonical spelling, used in all the books that people actually read (apart from the hardcore fans) is Noldor.

The spelling Ñoldor is also unnecessarily confusing, since most people know the letter ñ from Spanish, and will not know how it is pronounced here.

In general, I think that articles about Tolkien in Wikipedia should use the conventions of LotR and Silm unless they are specifically discussing earlier stages of the mythology. JulianBradfield 14:20, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The conventions in The Lord of the Rings were, in rare cases, later changed by Tolkien. The conventions in The Silmarillion are sometimes just plain wrong. There are places where Christopher Tolkien admits that he made mistakes (no one is blaming him, considering the difficult of the task). There is some discussion of the form Ñoldor at Talk:Ñoldor. If you want to discuss the current convention for dealing with such issues (which was the clear consensus at the time, but there is always room for improvement), under which the Ñ spelling is preferred, the discussion at the moment seems to be at Template talk:Mecanon (but see also Talk:Middle-earth and Middle-earth canon for some of the previous discussions). [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 19:14, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Hair color

Especially given the films' "all elves are blonde" simplification, it might be nice to include a summary of exactly what is said in the various texts about elven hair color. (See e.g. the discussions [1] and [2] and [3].) —Steven G. Johnson 22:34, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

Elves are not all blonde. If you look at the scene in LOTR-TFOTR where the elves dwarves and men etc. are at council deciding who is to take the ring to mordor, you can clearly see a darked haired elve sitting down. He is supposedly names figwit.

And what about Orcs and Goblins, whose origion are Elves?

All elves are blonde in the films? What about Arwen? Elrond? A large number of the extras in Rivendell? --UrbaneLegend 11:54, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Celegorm's hair colour is heavily contested given the context of the word usage of 'fair' in his work. Never did Tolkien state to have Celegorm to have a golden colour of his hair, J.R.R. Tolkien in History of Middle Earth, Shaping of Middle-earth (part 4) of him being 'Fairfax', i.e. fair-haired. What strikes me is that in that certain parts of the series, characters with blond hair are described golden haired, where as Tolkien himself also wrote dark-haired elves as being fair. The fairfax relates to an translation into of the Quenta Noldorinwa into Old English, but in the translation, there is a clear translation to golden-haired, namely: his daughter is Fripuswip Fealuleome (i.e. Finduilas Failivrin; fealuleome perhaps 'golden light'). In HOME XII, the often the correct context is given and this is just one example because I can come up with more references of fair-haired in correlation to dark hair colours: There were fair-haired men and women among the Folk of Beor, but most of them had brown hair (going usually with brown eyes), and many were less fair in skin, some indeed being swarthy. To equal fair-haired to blonde is just incredibly wrong and I cannot imagine it would be the purpose of this article to give incorrect information. 21:35, 2 January 2007 (UTC) Citations used from HOME IV and Home XII, Rhapsody

As stereotypical it is, the movies did portrait many elves as blonde. However, professor T never once said that the majority was such, nor any other colour. The term "fair" does not mean the archaic form (always) and might even refer to their skin. The Vanyar were descrobed as "golden-haired", the Noldor as "dark" and the Teleri as "of many colours" though their unique rademark was their silverhair (Galadriel's mother and Celeborn most noteably). It... was mostly a mistake Jacksson made with all the blonde elves since the only blonde Elf that had no Vanyar blood ever described was Thranduil ("... and a circlet of red leaves lay around his golden hair" or something, the Hobbit) and he was of Sindar origin. ---Hackeru

[edit] Capitalisation: Elves, elves, elf, Elf etc

My instinct tells me that Elvish, the Elves, Elven should be capitalied, but "Legolas is an elf", "two elves are dead" should not ("Lupin is a Man" seems wrong to me). Why is every Elf* and Elv* word capitalized? (This is not a rhetorical question - I speak from ignorance and a desire to know the answer). Lupin 21:54, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Consistency: Tolkien used lowercase "man" to describe any male (even non-humans), but always used uppercase Men when referring to humans. Other race names (Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, Ents etc.) were also always capitalized. Therefore when within a Middle-earth context, and referring to the Middle-earth races, uppercase should be used. Thus: Oberon was king of the elves or fairies, and Thingol was (a) king of the Elves. Jordi·✆ 23:47, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. Interestingly, hobbits is often not capitalized in LOTR, though. Also, we have "elven-cloak", "elven-fingers", "elven-song", "elven-blood" and "elven-blades", but "Elven-tongue", "Elven-lore", "Elven-stars" and "Elven-lords". Lupin 01:15, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hobbits-as-a-race is questionable: they're clearly an offshoot of Men. Also, LotR is supposed to be Frodo's story: he would not have capitalized the word. Hobbits don't appear in the Silm or in other texts (asides from the occasional origin or footnote, where they *are* Hobbits, not hobbits). The examples you mention such as elven-cloak are not supposed to mean "Elven cloak" (cloak belonging to an Elf), but rather "elven-cloak" (cloak of an Elvish style, cloak coming from the Elves). Again these occurences are all from LotR (I can't recall or quickly find any from the Silm or HoME), and most of them in dialog. Jordi·✆ 01:25, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

So do you think we should capitalize "hobbits" here? How about "orcs" (capitalized in LoTR) or "trolls" (not capitalized in LoTR)? Lupin 01:39, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'd capitalize them all—in a M-e context of course. It's what both J.R.R. and Christopher Tolkien did/do (most of the time), and it's consistent. Trolls by the way is capitalized in the appendices (see the end of appendix F-I for example): "some held that they were not Trolls but giant Orcs". Note also the "troll-race" in the sentence before: the troll-race are the Trolls. Jordi·✆ 01:53, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Hobbits-as-a-race is questionable: they're clearly an offshoot of Men." Yes, so clearly that hobbits are half our size and have pointed ears. =P On an unrelated note, I'd never heard about elves dying after being raped. Source? --71.112.234.168 10:10, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I've never heard of elves dying from being raped, or being raped at all. I've read all of the published books and history of middle earth series, I'm deleting the sentence.

I think there is a reference to Elves dying from being raped somewhere in the last three volumes of HoMe -- in fact, almost certainly in Morgoth's Ring, probably in "Laws and Customs Among the Eldar". Unfortunately, I don't have the exact reference, but I think the passage is written in a very dignified, tasteful way, like all of Tolkien's references to sex, and therefore may not be clear to some readers. I also seem to recall that the reference is in one of the notes to the essay rather than the essay itself, so it's not particularly prominent. Gildir

The torture and torment of Celebrian (Elrond's wife, Galadriel's daughter, Arwen's mother) by the orcs is clearly implied as having been of a sexual nature. She is unable to recover from the horror of it after her rescue and leaves Middle-earth to seek healing in Valinor. --David

Above Jordi said, "Other race names (Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, Ents etc.) were also always capitalized." This is incorrect. When referring to the race (or sub-races, kindreds) directly as a whole, he capitalized them because they are proper nouns. When referring just a group of them, especially an unspecialized group, as a creature or creatures, he didn't capitalize them because they aren't proper nouns.

Tolkien explained it well when he commented on this capitalization style in Letter No. 21, a note to an employee at his publisher: "Men with a capital is, I think, used in text when 'human kind' are specifically intended; and man, men with a minuscule are occasionally and loosely used as 'adult male' and 'people'."

'Hobbits' is capitalized on many occasions, but throughout the story you usually don't see it capitalized because it is being used in reference to the four in the Fellowship, or hobbits generically - not the entire 'hobbit kind.' It's capitalized in the very first sentence of the prologue, and several times afterwards: "This book is largely concerned with Hobbits, and from its pages a reader may discover much of their character and a little of their history."

While it is not capitalized in instances such as these:
"Then they went round the hole, and evicted three young hobbits (two Boffins and a Bolger) who were knocking holes in the walls of one of the cellars."

Here are some other examples to illustrate the difference between This and this.

Elves/elves:
"He could dimly see the grey forms of two elves sitting motionless with their arms about their knees, speaking in whispers."
"Not Elves; for the woodland folk were altogether noiseless in their movements. "

Dwarves/dwarves:
"As is told in The Hobbit, there came one day to Bilbo's door the great Wizard, Gandalf the Grey, and thirteen dwarves with him: none other, indeed, than Thorin Oakenshield, descendant of kings, and his twelve companions in exile."
"‘Beyond the eyes of the Dwarves are such foretellings,’ said Gimli." - Slow Graffiti 06:47, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What does this means?

"The bride’s mother gives the groom a jewel to be worn, but the marriage is achieved with its consummation" The consumation of what?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Sex. --CBD _☎ ^✉ 12:24, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Elfs?

When is "elf" ever pluralised as "elfs"? It's ungrammatical; and I've never seen it done. "Dwarves" is a different kettle of fish. --UrbaneLegend 12:33, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

The writer could be speaking of different elf races, in which case I suppose "elfs" could be correct, but it still sounds rather strange. I think it should be changed, any objections? --Eruhildo 21:04, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alcohol

I've deleted this paragraph. It stated that in "Jackson's Middle-earth" elves are immune to alcohol. This is not demonstrated, as the paragraph claimed it was, in the drinking game scene. The beer does have a (very mild) effect on Legolas - he says he can feel it, and that it makes his fingers tingle. It is not claimed that he is completely immune to alcohol. A small point, but it's not a misconception on the part of Jackson. --UrbaneLegend 12:42, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Elves are certainly not immune to the effects of alcohol. In the Hobbit both the butler and the chief guard drink themselves into a stupor. -- Jordi·✆ 20:19, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arwen the lastborn of her folk (in Jackson)?

I'm sort of sure this exists, and Jackson and company made this up, but then again... I was going to add the following because of a statement building on bodiless spirits Lingering - that at the end of the world, only young Elves would remain visible since they really won't stop reproducing:

Theoretically, if the Elves did exist, at the end of the world the youngest of them would still be visible, since for them all to become invisible would logically require that all Elves stop reproducing at some point. Incidentally, this voluntary cessation of reproduction appeared in material related to the Jackson films. In the material (not explicitly stated in the films themselves), Arwen is supposed to be the lastborn of her people, thus her being called "the Evenstar" (evening star). However, this does not appear in the books.

202.78.127.202 03:44, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Maeglin's non-grey eyes

Could anyone please provide a quote? I'm sure he had grey eyes. If not, my mistake. 202.78.127.202 03:52, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Elves are Germanium based life forms?

Is it true that elves are Ge-77 based life forms, and this explains their apparent immortality? --The1exile - Talk - Contribs - 10:53, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "convenient rendering"

Is it accurate to describe "Elf" as a convenient rendering of "Eldar" and "Quendi"? Wouldn't "Elf" in fact be a convenient rendering of whatever the Westron word for the Quendi/Eldar is? john k 00:31, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Tolkien stated that he used 'elf' because it was 'close enough' to his 'Quendi' to provide a general idea... like 'wizards' was a reasonably similar term for describing his 'Istari'. Thus 'elf' is a "convenient rendering" of 'Eldar', 'Quendi', and any/all other terms for them in any language. However, since the article specifically references the 'Red Book of Westmarch', which was ostensibly written in Westron, it would in that instance have been being used in place of the Westron term. It's an 'approximate English translation' from any language though. --CBDunkerson 12:35, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. But when it is used in Tolkien's own works that are supposedly from the Red Book, it is used as the equivalent of the Westron, presumably, since references to the Eldar or the Quendi are not translated, but left in the original Sindarin (or Quenya?) The reference ought to be clarified. john k 14:59, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

The Westron word for Elf is known, by the way: Nimîr (directly from early Adûnaic). There are no indications in Westron there were different terms for Quendi vs Eldar, and thus Nimîr is clearly the word translated by Elf. We can thus presume that Tolkien's "convenient rendering" of 'Quendi/Eldar' as 'Elves' is also present in the Red Book: where Tolkien used 'Elf' Frodo (Bilbo) used 'Nimîr'. -- Jordi·✆ 18:20, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Ah, nice. If we can source that, it would be useful to include, I think. john k 02:04, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Definitions; Jargon

This is a fascinating Wiki entry, but it includes a lot of words from Tolkien that are either not defined in this entry, are defined several paragraphs later, or you have to follow a link to find the definition. This makes the article seem jargony and hard to follow for the reader. Can you put in a short definition when you need a new term, and then the reader can understand, or, if they want more detail, they can follow the link? Just my 2 cents. Regards, Ssilvers 04:09, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd love to give a hand, but I'm such a Tolkien fan I don't always see stuff like that. Could you point some out for me? --Eruhildo 08:42, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expert help needed

This article is one step up from list form in places, with much essay-style conjecture and a preoccupation, in places, in criticising Peter Jackson's interpretation. The tone of the article needs formalizing. I don't have the specific expertise necessary myself! ▫ Urbane Legend ^talk 09:54, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I am working on it. It is however an enormous rewrite, so am doing it in my sandbox, but I do not plan to be finished in the next few days. Bryan 13:35, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed merge

I propose to merge the Fate of the Elves of Middle-earth into Elf (Middle-earth). The former is still mainly filled with speculation, which is frowned upon in Wikipedia. It is a well-written essay worthy of the authoring of a respected Tolkien scholar with plausible guesses derived from hints to "what presumably happened" to the Elves of Middle-earth; however, much of the information there could be condensed in length as well as speculation (along with adding inline citations) to fit into the history section. Comments? —Mirlen 11:45, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

In full agreement with this. -- Jordi·✆ 14:12, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Since there doesn't seem to be any more objections, can we considered this as merge? —Mirlen 14:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

agree —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bryan Tong Minh (talk • contribs).

I just did a quick merge of the text from there to here. Obviously it should be cleaned up and verified. The stuff about 'Arwen being the last Elf' was actually on this page previously (see discussion about it above) almost verbatim, so it looks like this content has moved back and forth a bit. --CBD 13:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sundering - the image

I propose that we make a new more correct and better image, the current one is wrong. It shows Falathrim as being separate from Sindar while Falathrim were a subgroup of Sindar as were the Eglath (later Iahtrim) and Mithrim (who merged with Gondolin Elves). The Laiquendi/Laegrim also weren't separte group that came of Nandor but were in fact a subgroup of Nandor like the Silvan Elves/Twarwaith (later merged with Avari who came to west). Also the Teleri->Falmari connection isn't quite clear on this picture, more correctly it doesn't show that Teleri split into three groups. Also it would be good if we could somehow show how the three main groups came to be (Eldar) along with the 'Unwilling' (Avari). --Factanista 12:37, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Elves first appear in The Hobbit  ???

Tolkiens concept of Elves were first published in the Hobbit, but surely they appeared in The Cottage of Lost Play and other writings long before then? Why is this not mentioned, nor the rest of HOME? --Davémon 22:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Elvish vs Elven

I always wondered if there was an "official" difference between these two adjectives. Is elvish used exclusively for languages? Or can one say "elvish sword" in the same manner as "elven sword"? If there is an official source, it might be interesting to add it to the article. --DarthMuffin 02:30, 30 March 2007 (UTC)