Talk:Efraim Karsh

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article. [FAQ]

	Israel Portal Efraim Karsh is part of the WikiProject Israel, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, visit the project page where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. This template adds articles to Category:WikiProject Israel articles.
Project Israel To Do (Drop-Down Menu): edit purge watch Here are some tasks you can do: Copyedit: Yossi Sarid, Havlagah, Palestinian views of the peace process Cleanup: Israel Export Institute, Agricultural Research In Israel, Israel lobby in the United States Expand: Category:Companies of Israel, Teva Pharmaceutical Industries, Category:Israeli songs, Port of Haifa, Allon Plan, Israel Antiquities Authority, Secular Jewish culture#Dance, Carmel Winery, Goldstar, List of Egged bus lines, Cellcom, Bezeq, Diamond industry in Israel, Geneva Accord, Zman Tel-Aviv Stubs: Israel stubs Update: National Religious Party NPOV: Israel and the UN, Israeli military action in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict Other: update WP Israel banner to include rating scale Translate from Hebrew: Yuval Steinitz, Women in governments of Israel [1] Translate to Hebrew: Gemara, Chief Rabbi, Palestinophilia, David Gans, Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary, David Bar Hayim, Jacob of Lissa, Nosson Zvi Finkel, Bezalel Ashkenazi, Solomon Schechter, Av Beit Din, Howard Fast, Guardian of Zion Award, Martin Gilbert, Hasbara, Israeli wine, Pierre van Paassen, Uri Davis
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

Contents 1 Review of Karsh's books 2 Cole section 3 Hadith 4 Conflict / Islamic history

[edit] Review of Karsh's books

JSTOR has a few reviews of Karsh's books from academic journals. Not sure that they have direct hyperlinks, though.

[edit] Cole section

Isarig (talk • contribs) is censoring Cole's direct response to Karsh's criticism of Cole's blog, using the bogus reason that Cole's blog is not a WP:RS. (Ironically, he is at the same time insisting that a blog comment be included on the Cole page). I understand his point but I think it is invalid here - Karsh's article is called "Cole's bad blog," it is about Cole's blog, and Cole replies specifically to Karsh's arguments on his blog. Cole is a reputable source, and his blog is widely cited in the mainstream media, and this section of the Karsh article is specifically about Cole's blog. To erase Cole's response to Karsh's criticism of his blog just because the response appears on that blog smacks of censorship.--csloat 23:34, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

You are making it very hard for me to WP:AGF when you repeatedly misrepresent my positions and actions. So from the top: People are not WP, by definiton. Sources which publish people's opinions can be either RS or non-RS. When Cole is cited in Salon, or testifies before congress, those comments are in a WP:RS and can be reproduced here. When Cole rants on his personal, self-published, on-line partisan blog, those comments are not published by a WP:RS and have no place here. So, when Karsh criticizes Cole in TNR, those comments, being published by a WP:RS can be presented here. If TNR decided to publish a letter to them by Cole making the same arguments, it may be published here. But so long as they only palce they appear is on the blog - they're out. If you don't like it - take it up with WP:RS. And as a final point - the comment I'm insisting on keeping at Views and controversies concerning Juan Cole appears in Middle East Quarterly, a RS, not a blog. Isarig 23:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

First, read WP:RS, especially the part about self-published sources like blogs. I will quote relevant parts below. Second, Karsh is commenting specifically about Cole's blog - the title of the article is "Cole's bad blog." Clearly we have broached the topic of the blog here; to deny the blogger a response because it wasn't published in TNR is bogus. Third, WP:RS is a guideline, not a rule, and the page specifically says at the top that "it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception." This is clearly the occasional exception.

Now, looking specifically at the section of WP:RS in question here, we read first:

Exceptions to this may be when a well-known, professional researcher writing within their field of expertise, or a well-known professional journalist, has produced self-published material. In some cases, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as their work has been previously published by credible, third-party publications, and they are writing under their own name or known pen-name and not anonymously. [emph in orig]

Clearly, Cole fits this criteria; he is well-published, and he is writing in his field of expertise (in fact, he is writing about his blog, which is what the Karsh article was about!) For Isarig to wave around WP:RS as a cut and dried rule is wikilawyering; it is very obvious that the blog response to Karsh's criticism of the blog is both relevant and notable in this context.

Next, we read that:

Material from self-published sources, whether published online or as a book or pamphlet, may be used as sources of information about themselves in articles about themselves, so long as there is no reasonable doubt about who wrote it

Clearly, this condition is met as well; Cole's blog is a more than reasonable source of information about Cole's blog. These conditions are each presented as sufficient rather than necessary conditions for the inclusion of a blog citation and this particular citation from this particular blog meets both conditions.

Your final point - which is an aside that is neither here nor there - the source cited is the "sand box blog," so yuou are wrong that it was not published in a blog. However, you are right that the sandbox blog is quoted in MEQ; I had not noticed that originally, so I withdraw my aside about the irony here.--csloat 00:02, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Let me address the follwoignpoints in order

'to deny the blogger a response because it wasn't published in TNR is bogus' - no, it is not. There's a reason why WP:RS was written - self published sourced have no editorial oversight, while RS do. If Cole makes his arguments in a letter to the editors of TNR and they publish it - we know that someone has found these arguments , at a minimum, to be non-libelious, for example. We can't say the same for Cole's rant on his personal blog. If we make an exception here, we're making an end-run around WP:RS which renders it meaningless. You may think that "This is clearly the occasional exception", but I disagree.

It's ok, per 'professional researcher writing within their field of expertise' - no, criticism of Karsh and of WP editors is not Cole's field of expertise. Nor are antisemitism, nor neoconservative politics. These are the subjects of Karsh's criticism of Cole, and the topics of his repsonse. The only thing which , passably, may be considered "his field of expertise" is information related to his academic record. If you want to limit the Cole rebuttal to the sentence that says "Cole responded to Karsh, first noting his "extensive" publications on the twentieth century Middle East, including articles "in refereed academic venues on the Taliban, on September 11, the Ayatollahs of Iraq and democracy, on the historiography of the Muslim Brotherhood, on the Salafi leader Rashid Rida and many other twentieth century and twenty-first century subjects." - I'll be ok with it.

It's ok, per "sources of information about themselves " - do read the full sentence, , which ends "in articles about themselves". This article is not about COle or his blog, it is about Karsh. That's why we can't use the Cole quote here, but can use it in the Cole article, or the C&V article. Isarig 00:26, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, those arguments don't wash. Read WP:RS. It's not a "rule", it's a guideline, and in this case it is clear that Cole's arguments on his blog are directly relevant to Karsh's arguments about his blog. You're just wikilawyering (and doing a poor job of it) to make a weak case. If you want to remove the section on Cole from this page, fine, but if it's going to be here then the response should not be censored. Your claim that TNR publishing something makes it non-libelous is feeble. What is libelous that Cole said? If you have a question about something we can discuss it. TNR publishing Karsh's words does not guarantee that they are non-libelous. The only way to determine that is to sue someone for libel and see who wins in court. As for your second claim, you are doing a terrible job of trying to make a red herring out of this. The issue here is Cole's blog (again, that's the title of the article by Karsh! To pretend otherwise is laughable). Cole is responding to Karsh's criticism of his blog. The only reason for censoring it is you don't think Karsh is right but you want to hide the response so that maybe others will think he is right. Again, it's just feeble. Give it up. As for your final point, you're right this article is about Karsh, but the section in question is about Cole and his blog in particular. Cheers!--csloat 05:37, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Rather than endlessly debating these points, I'll follow your suggestion and remove the section entirely. It is a sideshow to Karsh's main controversies. Isarig 19:39, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

ISArIG, Isarig always always wikilawyering, i actually went to law school and practice law but avoid legal phrases, as they advised us in law school, and try to communicate using plain english and common sense. I've often wondered what you do for a living? Cole is kind to Karsh compared to Benny Morris, isn't he? Take Care! Will314159 18:16, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

What I do for a living is, not to put too fine a point on it, none of your business. This is not about me, but about Karsh. As you can see from the above exchange, the suggestion to remove the Cole section was not mine, but csloat's (I mistakingly named CSTAR in my edit summary). I agreed with that suggestion. If you want to make a case for why this sideshow, consisting of single article Karsh wrote is notable enough to take 1/2 of the Karsh biography. let's hear it. Isarig 19:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

ISRIG: quit wikilawyering. I adopt CSLOAT's logic IN TOTO. I will repeat it for you:

• Sorry, those arguments don't wash. Read WP:RS. It's not a "rule", it's a guideline, and in this case it is clear that Cole's arguments on his blog are directly relevant to Karsh's arguments about his blog. You're just wikilawyering (and doing a poor job of it) to make a weak case. If you want to remove the section on Cole from this page, fine, but if it's going to be here then the response should not be censored. Your claim that TNR publishing something makes it non-libelous is feeble. What is libelous that Cole said? If you have a question about something we can discuss it. TNR publishing Karsh's words does not guarantee that they are non-libelous. The only way to determine that is to sue someone for libel and see who wins in court. As for your second claim, you are doing a terrible job of trying to make a red herring out of this. The issue here is Cole's blog (again, that's the title of the article by Karsh! To pretend otherwise is laughable). Cole is responding to Karsh's criticism of his blog. The only reason for censoring it is you don't think Karsh is right but you want to hide the response so that maybe others will think he is right. Again, it's just feeble. Give it up. Cheers Will314159 21:08, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I am glad you claim to adopt csloat IN TOTO (your emphasis). Allow me to draw your attention to the following csloat comment: " If you want to remove the section on Cole from this page, fine". This is a sideshow, irrelevant to Karsh's notability. I do no twant it in, and csloat agrees wit h it being out. If you wnat to make a case for this section to be in - let's hear it. Isarig 04:07, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I adopt his reasoning but not his sentiment. Just reasons of reciprocity. Karsh appears on Cole, Cole appears on Karsh. Cole is not as deragatory to him as Benny Morris. Cheers. Will314159 14:49, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

You don't get it. I don't object to Cole because he's derogatpry. I object to him because he made his comments on a blog, which is not a WP:RS, and more importantly, because he's a trivial side show. Karsh's disagreement with the so-called "new historians", of which Morris is one, is what made Karsh notable. It is an academic debate, among researchers of Modern Israeli history, conducted for the most part in peer-reviewed journals and published books - that's what makes it notable and worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia. Cole's response to Karsh's criticism of him was delivered in a personal blog, which does not meet the encyclopedia's requirements, and Cole is not a subject matter expert in the area he was criticized on. If you want to avoid having what you and csloat describe as an "unfair" situation , where one critic (Karsh) gets his say (because it was published in TNR, a WP:RS), but Cole can't reply becuase his response was in a non-WP:RS source, I'm fine with keeping this side show out of the article. Isarig 15:01, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

ISARIG, u r wrong on WP:RS. It's aim is so we can rely on the source of facts. It is not directed at OPINIONS. In fact blogs make verifying the sources of opinions even easier. Especially when the source is juancole.com. It's a very elementary point but you don't get it. I feel for you. Cheers. Will314159 18:15, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I know you strongly believe this horseshit, since you've been repeating it endlessly. But it is not supported by the actual text of WP:RS, where no distinction is made between blogs as sources of fact vs. blogs as sources of opinions. Blogs are out, period (except very limited situations, of which the Cole blog is not one). That being said, the main point is not WP:RS, but the non-notable nature of the Cole sideshow to the Karsh biography. Isarig 20:28, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

WHEN a discussion descends to scatalogical (shxt) language it usually means one of the proponents is being very hardheaded. your interpretation of the rules as others have pointed out is idiosyncratic. Cheers. Will314159 13:17, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

First of all, I disagree with your analysis. Iti is just as often that a discussion descends to scatalogical language because that's all one of the proponents is capable of. Second, my interpretation of the rules is supported by the direct text of WP:RS. Your invention, that it does not apply to opinions, is nowehere to be found there. Isarig 14:44, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hadith

While I have not read Karsh's book "Islamic Imperialism," I have noticed that several columnists, including Max Boot, Suzanne Fields and Shulamit Reinharz (wife of the President of Brandeis University) have repeated Karsh's assertion that the words "I was ordered to fight all men" are to be found in Muhammad's farewell address. This is not their source. Karsh himself, months after the publication of the book, has continued to repeat this attribution, for example in his review of a book by Karen Armstrong. These are the opening words of "Islamic Imperialism." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.163.100.73 (talk • contribs). 13:51, 3 November 2006

[edit] Conflict / Islamic history

It is a grave ovesimplification to call the received wisdom of Middle Eastern studies to be that Muslims are victims. That's far from the case with most scholars and even where they are considered victims it's time and location bounded. It needs to be cleaned up and sourced. gren グレン 11:18, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

That's quite correct, but I believe the problem is with Karsh's simplistic representation of the received wisdom of Middle Eastern studies rather than with the reality. csloat 21:33, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Fixed by attributing the POV to Karsh. How "correct" he is, is beside the point. <<-armon->> 21:46, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Well done. csloat 21:50, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

The section inserted by an anon[2] is unsourced and reads like an attack piece. I wonder why it was not removed immediately per WP:BLP. Beit Or 21:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if I'd say it read like an attack piece, but it was unsourced, so we do need to do better. <<-armon->> 21:59, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I was referring to the version before your edits. Regardless, this discussion of one book overwhelms the articles and is, still, unsourced. Beit Or 22:01, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

A quick search turns up that the section was at least partly based on the "dust jacket" description of the book [3]. <<-armon->> 22:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

It's from two books, and it reads nothing like an attack. At all. The idea that there are BLP violations in there is quite absurd. But I agree it could be more specifically sourced, and dust jacket info really isn't all that useful, so I won't be restoring it. csloat 22:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)