Talk:Edward II of England
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[edit] Edward II
Is there any particular reason you removed all references to Edward II's homosexuality from his page? Although I am not an expert on this, it seems there's enough evidence that it at least warrents a mention.
Basil Fawlty 06:34, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Well, it's okay to say that it was alleged that he was a fag, but so long as we don't add him to the "gay, lesbian and bisexual" category on Wikipedia, I think is alright. He was a weak and exploited king because he didn't have the right focus. That did not make him gay. Some contrived stories to help attack and displace a king do not deserve primary consideration and focus in our articles as the basis of our opinion of them. Besides that, I believe the Gay community trys too dishonestly to attach fame to their perversion in order to normalise it in every vein of society. This is like Black people trying to attribute European inventions and etc to Africans. Perverting the truth will not save it. Edward II was not a gay hero, despite what gays want to do to claim he's one of their icons and his enemies holding onto the misinformation to justify their perks from his fall. Kenneth Alanson 08:12, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Your anti-gay rant reeks of homophobia. Let the FACTS fall where they may. There is ample evidence that King Edward II was gay.68.219.235.65 08:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
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- There are numerous stories on Edwards II alleged homosexuality and I think that they should be included here, as long as they are NPOV. The part Kenneth Alan removed was in place for 1.5 years and was written in a neutral way, so it should not have been deleted, IMHO. Kenneth Alan's message above shows that he is not very 'understanding of homosexuals' in general, by using the word 'pervert' in conjuction with gay people, which very well could be the reason he reverted it in the first place. Thorin 21:36, 22 September 2004 (UTC)
- No, my free usage of terminology makes me American. I did some recent studying of Eddy the second and it appears things aren't the way they were laid out in this article. I'm sure most gays would still love to plaster him as an icon in the cause for gayness today. This is historical revisionism based on an exaggeration of his opponents' claims in order to dispose of him. Today, anti-king statements often get the blessing on a similar level to what power a Pope says in reference to things. Truth be told, Ed couldn't fill his father's enormous shoes and was paled by him in every respect. Often, royals would develop mass amounts of stress to try and live up to the legacy of their forebears and this would come upon them as a sort of nihilism that Ed most assuredly had by not meeting the professionalism of his father. Besides, if you look at the website of the royals, you will see that it mentions nothing of homosexuality. I am absolutely sure that gay toleraters would try and turn it around to say that of course the royals wouldn't say the truth. However, if you look at it more lucidly, you will see that Ed gave out his power to a few close people in succession and this is because he trusted them as opposed to various powerful factions striving to take it from him, due to his personal disinterest in the responsibility of kingship. Much can be seen with James VI/I as well, where he invested the power in those he thought uncorruptible, despite how unorthodox it may seem to those who want to absolutely control the monarchy for themselves. Obviously, the side affect to small power concentration is the impossibility of holding the power together, the very opposite of the king's intent, yet it is what conspirators view as proof of his homosexuality, despite no hard evidence. Just think about it, when there are many wanting the power, what other way to try to gain it but by displacing the few who actually hold it with vastly discrediting any move the ruler makes and distorting it for their gain...? Ed was trying to be an absolute monarch in a different vein of his father(his father already fought most relevant battles and won them so Ed found little reason to do anything but store the power with confidants, obviously making him sort of a flake when it comes to wielding fearful power that makes people fall in line with respect-which one can only do by building a monopoly with himself at the top), and ultimately failed because he had few rewards to give, when he wanted only those close to him to share with it. He was obviously in contraversion to oligarchy and that didn't serve many monarchs well, which was against such things as the Magna Carta and also, the Constitutional Monarchy that later developed prevented all of this. Køn Olsen 22:08, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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- (The above notice was written by User:Kenneth Alan under a pseudonym. This user has a history of subverting Wikipedia content to please his personal agenda. Why would any honest person use a pseudonym, anyway? Wikipedia is too transparent for such naive subterfuge. The contemporaries of both Edward II of England and James I of England, as well as their modern biographers, judge that their affection for their male favorites went beyond contemporary decorum. Subverting information is always despicable, whoever does it. Wetman 22:17, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC))
- No, this stuffy, dank library book reader with no concept of the educational freedom of the time the stories of HM King Edward II were made, isn't privy to understanding the times and the media control. The retort by this last Wikipedia editor is extremely snide and refuses to recall several other editors who use pseudonyms on an ever constant basis and the difference is, IMHO, they aren't under any scrutiny, but I am at this present time. It's not the first time I've encountered such libel by him and I'm not a baby, I can handle it. Regardless, you who are spectators to this little frenzy that just happened, please keep your mind in your head and not lose perspective to the article, by forgetting this defamation to my character. Køn Olsen 22:32, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Aha, it seems that in the case of Edward II, he had a vengeful wife with a powerful lover to subvert the throne, which to me seems the big difference between the reigns of Edward and James VI/I. James didn't lose his throne because he had a more stable marriage with a more faithful wife not in much spite over James's time spent hard at work to control the kingdom via his favourites. Also, during James's time, it was often a priority for the King to attend the Kingship much as a career and not so much a family affair. However, his attempts to install the Divine Right Of Kings was barely convincing that he could enforce such power to the contemporary day English Peerage and was a direct recall to Edward's time in which Kings tried to appear godly. Interesting. Besides, aren't French women more promiscuous than Danish women? Aren't they more attracted to soap operas and the glam of feuds(a Mediterranean/Romance feature in their culture)? This could also account for Isabella's unfaithful affairs and Anne's relative peace with James's style of family life. User:Kenneth Alan 22:45, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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- I have reverted the article to include the section on homosexuality. Please note that using the phrase "fag", or referring to homosexuals as "perverts" is considered derogatory and therefore not NPOV. 81.156.181.197 18:50, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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- Hey, just because you think Braveheart is gospel, doesn't make Edward II the way Hollywood portrayed him. What type of sad scholarship is this?? Mind you, I am watching Braveheart right now and notice several exaggerations and/or distortions throughout the movie. There are many things invented and are the sole device for increasing the ideal of Scottish independence. This movie will not get me to believe that Edward was gay. I notice the argument above me as unproductive. It seems that the truth is decided by politics and popularity factors. I hope for some acknowledgement of the truth without speculation to be the standards of articles, because this article happens to rely on inferences. Inferences do not add up in court, because they are inadmissable. Inventing truth, why, now that's a FICTION and irrational pretext, a justification for motives I have just spoken of. 24.255.40.174 17:35, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
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- Whomever you are, Braveheart (in which the battle across a swamp traversable only by a very narrow bridge is portrayed as being on wide open fields) has nothing to do with it. Its a long considered academic fact that Edward II was gay. CheeseDreams 18:06, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
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I didn't think anyone considered themselves to be, or were considered to be, gay at that time. Slrubenstein
- There exist persons whom by our definition of the word "gay" were. Just because a word does not exist doesn't mean that the value of it doesnt. The colour "indigo" did not exist as a colour word before Newton. However, the colour did. There was no word for the Tea plant in the 212th century BC, that doesn't prevent tea plants from having existed. CheeseDreams 11:12, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Small aside
a small aside: is the story about Edward's allegedly gay lover being executed after his private parts were burnt in front of him, true?? i just read it on the internet. it's crazy what man will do to man.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.110.89.98 (talk • contribs) 08:41, 24 November 2004 (UTC).
Yes, it is true. Thats one version of the "drawn" bit of "hung, drawn, and quartered". CheeseDreams 16:46, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
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- Was Edward II gay? This dispute may never be solved, Why? Edward II (1284-1327) is in no condition to tells us if he was or not, (probably wouldn't tell us if he was). Mightberight/wrong 14:51, 27 October 2005
The simple fact that a google search of the term Edward II will bring up mostly sites suggesting he was homosexual requires it be addressed in the opening paragraph. If you have a problem with this perception, put it under a subheading of "Arguments over sexuality" and provide both POVs on the issue, but the fact that the public (rightly or wrongly) percieves it to be so requires that it be mentioned.
Suicidal mongoose 22:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Hot poker story?
I've long doubted the truth of the "hot poker story"; it bears too much resemblence to the death of Edward's brother-in-law, Humphrey de Bohun, 4th Earl of Hereford. Humphrey was speared through the anus while fighting on a drawbridge by a pikeman hidden under the drawbridge. It's my suspicion that some confusion arose, or the story was deliberately changed, so the victim changed from the Earl of Hereford to the King of England for a more "ironic" death.
When does the "hot poker" story first arise? Any contemporary or near-contemporary reports?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mississippienne (talk • contribs) 23:44, 2 March 2005 (UTC).
- Ouch, if (supposed gay) Edward II was murdered this way, he was probably used to the OTHER kind of hot pokers? 28 October 2005—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.176.117.234 (talk • contribs) 00:17, 29 October 2005 (UTC).
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- The poker story appeared 30 years after the supposed event. There are scholars who go as far as to suggest that Edward did not die in Berkely Castle, was alive in 1330, and the story was entirely concocted by Thomas Berkeley on Roger Mortimer's orders [1] and the discussion below seems to be reviewing those ideas also. --Alf melmac 09:52, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
- That may be so, but English records hold his death in this manner (I can't remember which encyclopedia I used, but I'll try to find it). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.255.130.104 (talk) 01:48, 6 January 2007 (UTC).
[edit] The Fieschi Letter
This section is written in a POV manner without sources. It needs complete rewriting and proper sourcing to be of encyclopædic standard. FearÉIREANN 20:58, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
I have tried not to give a POV, but the variance between the letter and previously accepted history has to be explained. If you want sources, I have pasted the text of Fieschi letter below. The letter was discovered by a French archivist in the binding of an official register dated 1368 which had been the property of Gaucelm de Deaux, Bishop of Maguelonne, and was preserved in the Archives Departmentales d'Herault at Montpelier. It is still there today. The letter has been tested and is not a later forgery. Fieschi is a well known historical figure. He had several livings in England and knew the country though the letter shows a confusion between the rank of a knight and that of a lord. The following is a faithful translation from the original Latin. I suggest that you read the letter and then send me your comments about where the article is faulty. Could it be that your concern is that the letter differs from what you thought you knew?
In the name of the Lord, amen Those things that I have heard from the confession of your father I have written with my own hand, and afterwards I have taken care to be known to Your Highness.
First, he has said that, feeling England in subversion against him after the threat from your mother, he departed from his followers in the castle of the Earl Marshal by the sea, which is called Chepstow. Later, driven by fear, he boarded a barque together with Lord Hugh Ie Despenser and the Earl of Arundel and several others, and made his way by sea to Glamorgan on the coast. There he was captured, together with the said Lord Hugh and Master Robert Baldock, and they were taken by Lord Henry of Lancaster. And they led him to Kenilworth Castle, and the others were taken to various other places. And there, many people demanding it, he lost the crown. Subsequently, you were crowned at the feast of Candlemas next following. Finally, they sent him to the castle of Berkeley. Afterwards, the servant who was guarding him, after some little time, said to your father, 'Sire, Lord Thomas Gurney and Lord Simon Barford, knights, have come with the purpose of killing you. If it pleases you, I shall give you my clothes that you may better be able to escape.' Then, wearing the said clothes, at twilight, he went out of the prison. And when he had reached the last door without resistance, because he was not recognised, he found the porter sleeping, whom he quickly killed. And, having got the keys out of the door, he opened it and went out, with his keeper. The said knights who had come to kill him, seeing that he had thus fled, and fearing the indignation of the Queen, for fear of their lives, thought to put that aforesaid porter in a chest, his heart having been extracted and maliciously presented to the Queen, as if they were the heart and body of your father; and, as the body of the King, the said porter was buried at Gloucester. Afer he had escaped from the prison of the aforesaid castle, he was received at Corte Castle together with his companion, who had guarded him in prison, by Lord Thomas, the castellan of the said castle, without the knowledge of Lord John Maltravers, lord of the said Thomas, in which castle he remained secretly for a year and a half. Afterwards, hearing that the Earl of Kent, for maintaining that he was alive, had been beheaded, he took a ship with his said keeper and, with the consent and counsel of the said Thomas, who had received him, crossed into Ireland, where he remained for nine months. Afterwards, fearing lest he be recognised there, and having taken the habit of a hermit, he came back to England and proceeded to the port of Sandwich, and in the same habit crossed the sea to Sluys.
Afterwards, he turned his steps in Normandy, and from Normandy, as many do, crossing through Languedoc, he came to Avignon, where he gave a florin to a Papal servant and sent, by the same servant, a note to Pope John. The Pope summoned him and kept him secretly and honourably for more than fifteen days. Finally, after various deliberations, all things having been considered, and after receiving permission to depart, he went to Paris, and from Paris to Brabant, and from Brabant to Cologne, so that, out of devotion, he might see the [shrine of] the Three Kings. And, leaving Cologne, he crossed over Germany and headed for Milan in Lombardy.
In Milan, he entered a certain hermitage in the castle of Milasci [Melazzo], in which hermitage he remained for two and a half years; and because war overran the said castle, he moved to the castle of Cecima in another hermitage of the diocese of Pavia in Lombardy. And he remained in this last hermitage for two years or thereabouts, always the recluse, doing penance or praying God for you and other sinners. In testimony of which I have caused my seal to be affixed for the consideration of Your Highness.
Your Manuele de Fieschi, notary of the Lord Pope, your devoted servant.
JMcC 09:56, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
FearÉIREANN has failed to respond to two messages asking about his doubts about factual accuracy. It is only possible to conclude that this user has no grounds for his objection. I have therefore removed the factual accuracy warning from this section. JMcC 09:55, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Supposed Life "After death"
I feel there should be some mention in the article about the belief that he was not killed and infact escapted. See the Letter section above. There is a fair amount of popular belief in this and even some scholars have argued this. Citing such things as the archetecutre at the hermitage that he supposedly lived out his life at, the above letter, and the manner which his body was displayed for viewing after his "death". There is also a fairly good argument that goes to debunking this, I have the articles somewhere but I have to find them so I don't want to add them myself just yet. If someone can remember them would you please add them. If the "hot-poker" story is included, which it should be since it is part of the mythology of Edward II, his supposed survival should be as well.
I also vaugley remember reading somewhere that Edward III supposedly met his father at some point later in his life but had no idea it was him as he was dressed as a hermit and did not let his son know. Anybody else remember anything like this? Or is this something I have come up with from something else? Some help with these things would be appreciated. FubarDac 16:59, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I've read a few times that another victim was used and Edward was smuggled out of the country to Lombardy and spent the rest of his life as a hermit. Maybe worth adding to the main article with a credible source? Lugnuts 18:31, 31 July 2006
[edit] Despensers
The sections on the Despensers needs to be rewritten as it takes a tone that makes them sound like they were friends of the people when historical research shows the greatest abuses came during thier time in power. I believe at least one historian has pointed out that the barons and the commoners would have gladly taken Gaveston over them. FubarDac 17:16, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed. I've removed two of the most obvious statements of opinion, but it needs considerably more work.
- —FlashSheridan 16:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] WHY ARE DEATH DATES INALTERABLE???
There's already a lot of speculation that Edward II survived the alleged assassination, but even then, the date was and is still uncertain.
Why, then, is there a "Sept 21 1327" as if carved in stone, inalterable? I've tried several times to add a "?" but to no avail.→ R Young {yakłtalk} 09:55, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The Letter
Where has the Fieschi letter gone? There don't seem to be any references to it in the article, and the death of Edward, poker and all, seems to be described as certain (despite the fact that historians today generally accept that that story is hardly based on eyewitness accounts). I'm sure I remember it being here a few months ago, and now it seems to have vanished. So where is it? Surely something so highly relevant to Edward should be mentioned there? Accordingly, unless someone can give me a good reason as to why it shouldn't be there, I am going to elaborate upon the doubts surrounding Edward's death, and add a section regarding the letter (using 'The Greatest Traitor', by Ian Mortimer). Michaelsanders 13:23, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Wikify template
I added this because I think the new sections of the article need some Wiki links. I realise it's "work in progress", of course. Andrew Dalby 14:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] This article needs better referencing
I know nothing about this period in British history, but it looks like the legacy of this figure is disputed. I can't help but noticing that we have a very long article without any inline references. If this person is disputed then inline referencing will be required. I don't understand why a blog that "wishes to save the reputation of a beloved monarch" (or something along those lines) is listed as a source. This article needs solid referencing from printed works. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 21:59, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- Don't know about blogs, or beloved Kings; I've been adding to the article over the last month or so, based on The Greatest Traitor, by Ian Mortimer - it's a biography of Roger Mortimer which also covers Edward II. That's the bit that the above note wants references for. Michaelsanders 22:04, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Sounds great. I just noticed the combination of a lack of inline references + an issue that looked slightly controversial, that's all. Good luck with the article. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 22:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry, I should have noticed that the blog was listed under "See also", not the references section. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 22:09, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- I've removed the blog. In fairness to it, when I had a look, it seem quite interesting, and it seemed source-based and informative; nonetheless, the premise, and the temporary nature of the link, makes me feel uneasy about keeping it. Which is not to say that links to of Edward II as a good person should be discouraged; but something a bit more 'high-class' (i.e. a reputable webpage, text by a reputable author, or even simply something more permanent) would, I think, be better. Michaelsanders 00:07, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- To clarify the above: if we are to be as fair and unbiased as possible, we need to include in the 'see also' section either links to an even spread of views of Edward II, or no links to such things. With the removal of the blog link, it is now slightly pointless - we have the Marlowe link (I seem to recall that Marlowe was pretty harsh to Edward), the link to historical sexuality (having looked, the wikipedia article there has practically nothing on Edward), and nothing of great value to anyone who wants to find out more online. So some links to anything which can tell us more about Edward - facts, views, etc - would be useful; but, I would think, it would have to be a 'good' site, whatever 'good' is (I also work in the Harry Potter articles, and the criteria there is that, for a site to be 'good', it must be endorsed by the author. For obvious reasons, Edward II can't endorse a website, but anything produced by/recommended by a reputable historian would seem a good idea - if there is such a thing). Just my views... Michaelsanders 00:18, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- It's my blog that you removed. It doesn't say anything about a 'beloved monarch'; the 'slogan' is "an attempt to salvage the reputation of one of England's most maligned kings". My aim is to provide a more balanced and sympathetic view of Edward, while remaining as objective as possible. I have a BA and an MA with Distinction in medieval history. I'm wondering what qualifications people posting here have for writing about Edward II? AlianoreD 11:54, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
- I've put the link back in and we'll see how it lasts ... In fairness to those who removed it, Wikipedia's general guidelines deprecate links to blogs; but they also say that rules are made to be broken, and I think that in this case the link is really useful. Andrew Dalby 12:26, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
- As I noted above when discussing the removal of the link, I said it seemed good. But the point remains, it is written as a blog. It is not user accessible (a reader can't easily look up a subject, merely has to trawl through the archived dates), it does not source its information particularly well, and the basis of writing according to immediate interest means that it jumps erratically from different subjects - from Edward's marriage to his deposition to the marriages of Margaret de Clare. It is a blog, temporary. Is there no way that you can make a proper website? Michaelsanders 13:54, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
- 'Erratic'? That's your opinion. I prefer to think of it as 'eclectic'. Everything in it is 'about' Edward II, his reign, his life, his family, in some way. It's intended to be both informative and entertaining. If you don't enjoy it, fine. But if you check the sidebar, you'll see that (most of) the posts are categorised to facilitate user access. Sources: I haven't figured out a way of adding them while keeping the interface readable and user-friendly. I don't want to add 'source: Vita Edwardi Secundi' or 'source: Annales Paulini' or whatever after every sentence. If any readers want to find out the original source, they're welcome to ask me in the comments. In fact, a lot of my posts quote directly from primary sources. And considering the Wiki article only references one primary source, one article of less than a page, and three books - and one or two more in the text not mentioned in the 'References' - I hardly think you're in a position to criticise. Where are the references to Haines, Dodd and Musson, Maddicott, Phillips, Johnstone? What about Edward II's Chamber and Wardrobe Accounts, Household Books, Patent/Close/Fine/etc Rolls, IPMs, other contemporary or near-contemporary chroniclers, etc etc? Why is Ian Mortimer's 'Greatest Traitor' quoted in the text but not mentioned in the 'References'? Why has his quote about the younger Despenser (the minister and bully one) been copied in the text without citation? By the way, I have no idea how to set up a website. AlianoreD 18:07, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
- To clarify the above: if we are to be as fair and unbiased as possible, we need to include in the 'see also' section either links to an even spread of views of Edward II, or no links to such things. With the removal of the blog link, it is now slightly pointless - we have the Marlowe link (I seem to recall that Marlowe was pretty harsh to Edward), the link to historical sexuality (having looked, the wikipedia article there has practically nothing on Edward), and nothing of great value to anyone who wants to find out more online. So some links to anything which can tell us more about Edward - facts, views, etc - would be useful; but, I would think, it would have to be a 'good' site, whatever 'good' is (I also work in the Harry Potter articles, and the criteria there is that, for a site to be 'good', it must be endorsed by the author. For obvious reasons, Edward II can't endorse a website, but anything produced by/recommended by a reputable historian would seem a good idea - if there is such a thing). Just my views... Michaelsanders 00:18, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- I've removed the blog. In fairness to it, when I had a look, it seem quite interesting, and it seemed source-based and informative; nonetheless, the premise, and the temporary nature of the link, makes me feel uneasy about keeping it. Which is not to say that links to of Edward II as a good person should be discouraged; but something a bit more 'high-class' (i.e. a reputable webpage, text by a reputable author, or even simply something more permanent) would, I think, be better. Michaelsanders 00:07, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry, I should have noticed that the blog was listed under "See also", not the references section. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 22:09, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- Sounds great. I just noticed the combination of a lack of inline references + an issue that looked slightly controversial, that's all. Good luck with the article. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 22:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
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