Talk:Edmund the Martyr

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The wording of this latest change appears confused, but it could imply there is a need for a large-scale revision of the dates in several articles dealing with English history around the time of the invasion of East Anglia and Wessex by the Great Heathen Army. Maybe there is, but this needs discussion and clear sources. PatGallacher 20:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

The Blackwell Encyclopedia of Anglo-Saxon England article "Edmund, St, King of East Anglia" [authored by Marco Mostert], begins:"The Anglo Saxon Chronicle (MS. A) notes the death of King Edmund of East Anglia at the hands of a Viking army under 870 (=869)." Seems pretty clear cut. Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Have we got the right dates for the Viking invasion of Wessex fairly soon afterwards then? PatGallacher 21:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

The attack on Alfred at Chippenham was on 6 January 878, Alfred collected an armyat Easter 878, and the battle of Eddington was fought in the summer of 878. As of 878, the Great Army had taken large parts of Mercia and Northumbria, but it wouldn't be true to say that they had conquered either completely. Ceolwulf (II) was still king in Mercia, probably until 879x881. Most likely he was killed in battle in north Wales, and not fighting Danes. Claims that Ceolwulf was a puppet king bear more than a passing resemblance to the blackening of King John Balliol's reputation after Bruce became king. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

As the person who inserted this edit, may I provide a reference? Follow the link to the Edmund pages of the Western Michigan University Medieval Institute (on the main page) and click on the article by Dorothy Whitelock Fact and Fiction in the Legend of St Edmund, where the dating of the martyrdom is discussed.Edmund869 22:42, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

That's here. Interesting stuff. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, actually what I was thinking about was the first major Viking invasion of Wessex, when Ethelred was king but he died and Alfred took over, which included battles like Ashdown and Marten. Was this in 870 or 871? Did the Great Heathen Army move on to Wessex more or less immediately after killing Edmund, or was there a gap of about a year? PatGallacher 00:21, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

According to the most recent scholarship, as exemplified by Michael Swanton's edition of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (revised edition 2000) the Great Army stayed in East Anglia for most of 870, arriving in Reading in the late Autumn. The first battle (Englefield ) is dated 870, the others you mention are given an 871 date.The Danes were reinforced by the Summer fleet that arrived in the Thames just before Easter, and Alfred's brother Aethelred was killed soon after Easter. Alfred therefore came to the throne of Wessex about 18 months after Edmund was killed in East Anglia. Towards the end of 871 the Danes left Reading for London.Edmund869 15:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

That answers some questions, but still leaves some others. I thought the "Great Summer Army" was Bagsecg's army, who was killed at Ashdown in January some year. So what year did he and his army arrive? Or is the "Summer fleet" something different and later from Bagsecg? PatGallacher 22:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

It is quite clear from the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle that the battle of Ashdown (and therefore the death of Bagsecg) preceded the arrival of the summer army (or fleet - the Old English word is sumerlida). Both events occurred between January and September 871, so there is no conflict between the Anglo-Saxon year (September to August) and the modern year.I do not know how the tradition that Bagsecg came over with a summer army arose, but I am not aware of any contemporary sources that would support this idea - which is not to say that they do not exist. As far as the Chronicle is concerned, Bagsecg is only mentioned once, when his death is recorded.Edmund869 15:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The Encyclopedia Britannica gives Edmund's death date as Nov. 20 870. PatGallacher 17:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

The Blackwell Enyclopedia of Anglo-Saxon England says 869. No contest. Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:06, 24 December 2006 (UTC)