Talk:Easter

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  1. through June 2006
  2. July 2006 to March 2007

Contents

[edit] Parts of the UK?

"Canada and the United States and parts of UK". I would say that the UK is more secular than the US - which parts of the UK don't have a secular easter? Northern Ireland and some bits of Scotland? I'm going to change this to the UK unless anyone disagrees. Secretlondon 05:09, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion agreed with wholeheartedly here. Tomjol 23:16, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Netherlands section

Hey there, can't edit the page myself. Can someone please change the Netherlands section to include Northern Germany where Easter fires are also quite common. thanks :) Marco (Northern Germany) Bonteburg 20:26, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not in ########## of John

Under "Etymology", the meaning of the word "Passover" in John 28:8 is mentioned. If this is referring to ########## of John, there is no John 28:8; ########## of John is only 21 chapters long. I can't edit this; perhaps someone can. However, I haven't found an alternative verse to cite. John 19:8 and 20:8 don't have the word "Passover" in the New International Version. There is a Matthew 28:8, but no reference to the word "Passover" there either (using the same version). Perhaps someone can find the right Gospel of John reference. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by John ISEM (talk • contribs) 14:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC).

I provide more appropriate citations. — Joe Kress 20:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology: Interpretations of chronologies in the gospels

There are varying interoperations of when the gospels state that the Last Supper took place. There is wide-spread agreement that the Synoptic Gospels say is was the Passover meal, so that is easy. The more difficult issue with the Gospel of John. One main interpretation is that says the same thing as the other gospels; another main interpretation is that says the Last Supper was earlier. A good, reliable source that I found that provides insight into the breadth of each opinion is the NIV Study Bible. The authors sift through the various theological writings and digest scholars opinions and includes a sense of how popular a given interpretation is. Using a source like this is a big step up from past versions of this article that didn’t provide any source regarding the popularity of an article. Still, if someone can find an even better sources to help with providing an unbiased overview, there is room for further improvement. --Ed Brey 11:23, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I didn't mention John 19:14 regarding the interpretation that John differs because it's not clear as to the rationale for the interpretation. Does anyone have a source for that? --Ed Brey 11:23, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


The "last supper" was not the Passover Seder meal as mentioned in this entry. Why? This is determined quite simply by common sense as applied to the manner in which God commaded that Passover was to be kept. (Read Exodus chapter 12) Jesus was OUR Passover lamb. His shed blood redeemed us from our sinful state of bondage in the same manner that the original Passover lamb redeemed the Israelites from bondage in Egypt. He was sacrified on preparation day (Nisan 14), at the same time the High Priest was sacrificing the lambs, as our full and final sacrifice. At sundown, which began Nissan 15, the Passover meal was to be eaten. Now read very carefully, the Lamb is eaten AT the Passover meal, it is the main course. You cannot have the Passover Seder while the lamb is still alive. So again, since Jesus is our Passover Lamb he was dead and buried by the time the nation of Israel, including the disciples, was sitting down to the Passover meal. The last supper was simply that, the last meal he sat down to partake with his disciples. Without doubt, he included elements of the Seder meal which pointed to his fulfillment of the Passover sacrifice. But it was not the seder which he ate on the evening of Nisan 13. This would have been contrary to God's commands. Disobeying God is sin. Jesus was without sin. So he would not have broken his Father's command regarding the keeping of the annual Passover feast. I have had fellow religious scholars debate me and try to prove that it was the Passover feast and Jesus was alive for it. BUT, if you can prove that Jesus was alive on Nisan 15 and ate the Passover meal then you also prove that He IS NOT our Passover Lamb. And as such, his death means nothing. Why? Because God's law regarding the sacrificial system is very specific. No where in scripture does it allow for an offering to be sacrificed on Passover day itself. A sacrifice so offered would be an abomination to God and his law. So let's review the facts. The "last supper" was just a last meal with the 12 before his crucifixion. This meal took place late Nisan 13/early Nisan 14. He was crucified on Nisan 14 and died around 3pm. He was quickly buried before sunset, at which time Nisan 15 began and commenced the High Sabbath of Passover. <tww, apr-04-2007>

A masterpiece of a priori logic. I look forward to your defense of the ptolemaic universe. Doops | talk 04:13, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
tww, are you saying that the Last Supper was a Passover meal, but not the Passover Seder? Or perhaps some other meal? The biblical sources refer to "eating the passover". In light of the principle you brought up that Jesus is the passover sacrifice, what are you saying that Matthew 26:17, Mark 14:12, etc. are referring to? Can you point to any reliable sources that expound upon the interpretation? --Ed Brey 11:20, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I can, but not according to tww's reasoning. More to the point, the required elements of a seder seem to be missing even from the synoptic accounts. In the original language, they are clearly using leavened bread. (The bread is called "artos" in Greek. Unleavened bread is everywhere else called "azymos".) At least Eastern Orthodoxy (if not other traditions) uses the chronology in John as normative. See the answer to Question 1 here. TCC (talk) (contribs) 17:46, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
There are two mentions (the redundency is a problem in itself) in the article that the Last Supper was a Passover Seder, neither of which cites specific sources, nor does the Last Supper article cite specific sources (only general references). The NIV Study Bible source cited in the Etymology section refers to the Last Supper as "a Passover meal", without calling out one way or the other whether it was a Seder. Given your exegesis and the lack of specific sources indicating it is a "Seder", I would lean toward more sure text, such as replacing "a Passover Seder" with "a Passover meal". --Ed Brey 11:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
TCC, you are absolutely correct in your observation on the bread. I too, have used this point as well to prove that the "last supper" was not the Passover meal. To cite an additional point, the narrative in John 13:29 indicates that the other disciples thought that Judas was perhaps leaving to buy things for the Passover meal/feast, or to give to the poor. IF, they had just finished the Passover meal with Jesus, and it was now early on Nisan 15, they NEVER would have consider that Judas left for those reasons. Why? First, the meal would already be over. Second, Passover is a High Holy Sabbath, so no buying or selling takes place. I'll try to add some clarity to my previous entry on the date of the crucifixion... I entered that late at night after a long day of Passover preparations. I will simply say this... Many have "proven" to me that the last supper was the Passover Meal that Jesus ate with the disciples on Nisan 15. If this IS the case, then following the chronological order of events recorded in the Gospels, Jesus would have been crucified the following afternoon which would still be PASSOVER. But, the Gospels also clearly recount that Jesus was crucified on PREPARATION day, Nisan 14 (John 19:31). Therefore, the last supper occured late Nisan13/early Nisan14. [Note: For those not familiar with Biblical timing, God's day has always been measured from sunset to sunset. NOT a 24hr period beginning at midnight] The argument for the last supper being Passover DOES NOT fit the chronological test. In addition, God's law regarding the sacrifical system is very precise. (See the enire book of Leviticus) The Passover Lamb MUST be chosen on Nisan 10, observed for four days, and sacrificed on Nisan 14. (Exodus 12)In order for Jesus to be an acceptable sacrifice as our Passover Lamb, he MUST meet these same criteria. Therefore, if the last supper was the Passover Meal eaten on Nisan 15 with Jesus in attendance, then He obviously WAS NOT crucified on Nisan 14. Again, this possible scenario is disproved by Scripture. So my answer to my unlearned religous colleagues has been this... IF you manipulate facts and prove to me that Jesus was alive and ate the Passover Meal on Nisan 15, then you also prove to yourself that He IS NOT the Messiah. I personally believe He is our Messiah and Savior. He did fit the model and criteria of the Passover Lamb. And He was crucified on Nisan 14, the day of preparation for Passover. The facts (Scriptural, historical, and cultural) support this viewpoint. Too Doops, this is not a stretch of deduction or a hypothetical scenario. Stick to commenting on topics you know somehting about. <tww apr-07-2007 15:30US-EDT>
Ed, please clarify your definitions of Passover Meal and Passover Seder. I assume from context you are understanding a Seder to be a symbolic observance of the Passover Meal, but not the actual meal itself. For instance, we have held symbolic/teaching Seders that explore the ways in which Christ fulfills the prophetic pictures given us in the Passover Feast. We use all the required elements and go through the complete Haggadah. These typically occur AROUND Nisan 15, but not on Nisan 15. On that night, we are home with our families actually celebrating the Passover Feast. I will point out, however, that we use the SAME ELEMENTS. To this point, I find it hard to believe that Jesus would have used LEAVENED bread as part of a symbolic Passover Seder on Nisan 13 to represent His sinless body. So again, I must stand by the facts which support my position. The last supper was simply that, the last meal he had with the disciples. Moreover, it was the meeting where he finally let them know WHY they have been keeping the Passover Feast (now only a day away) for generations and what it truly means to them. <tww apr-02-2007 15:33US-EDT> —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.63.102.120 (talk) 19:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Format

I had to remove the "double curvy bracket" christianity}} tag because it messed up the formatting of the page - made everything centered and other things. I do not know how to edit such a thing. Ellimist 00:25, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I put the template back because I really don't see anything wrong with it. Could you be specific? Carlo 02:30, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
It had been vandalized a short time ago. No doubt Ellimist was seeing either the vandalized version or a cached copy of it. TCC (talk) (contribs) 17:49, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, it is fine now. I had looked back in the history, but the same error kept popping up. Oh well. Whatever it was is fixed now. Thanks. Ellimist 19:15, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pascha

Since Pascha redirects here, I am adding it to the beginning of the article. Majoreditor 03:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] When does Lent end?

The Easter Triduum article declares that Lent ends on Holy Thursday, but the Lent article states that it ends either at the dusk of Holy Saturday (Easter Vigil) or the morning of Easter Sunday. These seem to conflict, so which one is right??74.62.177.140 20:05, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Lent ends on Holy Saturday in the Western churches. It may end earlier in Eastern Orthodox churches; I'm not sure. (I know it starts earlier there). —Angr 11:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Easter and Hitler

Every 14 years, the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the birth of Hitler occurs on the same day. Next Occurrence will be on April 20th 2014 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Funkadelic1 (talk • contribs) 14:57, 6 April 2007 (UTC).

Unlike Jesus, Hitler will not come again . . . in 2014 or at any other time.

[edit] Easter in Bulgarian

Regarding the name : the article mentions bulgarian easter translation but it is wrong. In Bulgarian easter is Velikden (or "Великден"), which is selebrated on Sunday and the night before is called Bydni Vecher("Бъдни Вечер")which is the expectation of Easter. Also, in those countries the official days off are Friday through Monday, not as in catholic world, where it starts with good friday and end on sunday. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.80.41.47 (talk) 12:28, 7 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Cults?

I don't think that calling certain groups "cults" is an NPOV sort of thing. 141.152.79.93 15:25, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I have removed it. --BigDT 00:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Easter Fires

Easter Fires (Påskbrasor) is tradition in Scandinavia (Sweden specifically) and this is not reflected in the text.


Not just Scandinavia, but much of Northen Europe, including Germany and Britain. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.230.73.2 (talk) 12:13, 8 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] s-protection

Is there any reason for the pre-emptive protection of this article? There's a definite reason to leave it not protected - we want someone googling Easter to be able to edit it and potentially become a user. If every high profile page is s-protected preemptively, then potential new users get the idea that they can't "edit this page right now". --BigDT 00:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)


Agree with protection. The high volume of vandalism is not worth the slight possibility that someone might add something useful during the next day or two. Academic Challenger 01:01, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I removed the protection. As a general rule, pages linked from the main page should not be protected unless the vandalism gets so bad we can't keep on top of it (i.e. reverting vandalism actually results in edit conflicts with the vandals). —Angr 11:04, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Three Days?

This might sound like a stupid question, but I'm unsure of something. the article states:

"Easter, the Sunday of the Resurrection...It celebrates the resurrection of Jesus, 
which his followers believe occurred on the third day after his death 
by crucifixion...Good Friday."

If he was killed on Friday, and he was resurrected three days later, wouldn't that be Monday? Friday to Saturday is one day, Saturday to Sunday is two days, and Sunday to Monday is three days. The text says 'the third day after his death', so Saturday is the first day after, Sunday is the second day after, and so Monday is the third day after. Is there an error in the article, or can I not count? 須藤 04:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on the topic, but I think that Friday is counted as the first day, Saturday is the second day and Easter is the third day. Anyway, the idea of Jesus rising on the third day is in the bible. I'm sure there have been lots of debates on this. Another thing to remember is that at that time, days were considered to have begun at sunset. That's all I know about it, I've wondered about that also. Academic Challenger 05:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

It's the third day if we count inclusively, which is how the ancients tended to count (the day, the second day, the third day, etc.). Of course, the problem is the word "after" since to our modern ears it implies exclusive counting (the day, the first day after, the second day after, etc.). We can't change "third" to "second" — "the third" is too traditional — but maybe there's a way to cut the word "after." Doops | talk 05:07, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Eh, I couldn't figure out how to remove the word "after"; so I just put in a parenthetical note. Doops | talk 05:15, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, many conservative Protestants believe that Good Friday is wrong and that Christ was crucified on Thursday. He was crucified on the "preparation day" before a Sabbath, but, the first day of Passover was a Sabbath, over and above the Saturday Sabbath (Exodus 12:16). John 19:14 says in no uncertain terms, "And it was the preparation of the passover". So the day Jesus was crucified was the day before Passover, not necessarily on a Friday. So if we're going to get 3 days + 3 nights, that makes it a Thursday. --BigDT 12:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, most all of the above is not supported by my research, except for the statement that God's day does run from sunset to sunset. In order to fulfill the OT prophecy of Jonah, Christ had to be dead and buried in the grave for 3 nights and 3 days. These are literal days. The reasoning supplied by Doops is not scripturaly or culturally correct but one most often espoused by the Seventh Day Adventist movement for counting three days from Friday to Sunday. It doesn't work. Not culturally. Not scripturally. The problem is this, in our perverted western religious system, we have been taught nothing of the OT and Hebrew culture and customs. When we see 'Sabbath' most all of us think of the only Sabbath we are familiar with... the weekly seventh-day Sabbath of the Ten Commandments. This was my narrow-minded level of understanding for almost 30 years of study and research. The fact is that God ordained His High Holy days throughout the year... these days are Sabbath days as well... and Passover is one of these Sabbath days. John 19:31 clearly indicates that the 'preparation day' on which Christ was crucified was the preparation day for the High Sabbath of Pesach (Passover). According to ancient lunar calendars, the month of the Abib barley would have begun on a Wednesday night in the year 28CE, this would be Nisan 1. Fourteen days later on Wednesday Nisan 14, the nation of Israel was preparing for the High Sabbath of Passover. It was on this preparation day, that Jesus was crucified and died at appox 3pm in the afternoon. His body was quickly prepared and buried prior to sunset which marked the beginning of the Passover on Nisan 15. He layed in the grave from sunset Wednesday to sunset Thursday. DAY ONE. Sunset Thursday to sunset Friday. DAY TWO. and Sunset Friday to sunset Saturday. DAY THREE. The scriptural, historical, astronomical and cultural evidence supports this chronology for the prophetic three nights and three days in the grave. At the end of the weekly Sabbath (on Saturday) He was resurrected to life again. John 20:1 tells us that Mary came early on the first day of the week while it was still dark. In historically and culturally correct terms, "early on the first day of the week while it was still dark" is equivalent to our Saturday evening/night. By the time the sun rises on Sunday morning, the first day of the week is half-over. We need to think outside the teachings that are being continually regurgitated at our theological seminaries. We are no longer taught to think, search, and reason for ourselves... but to only do so within the confines of the "box" in which a particular denomination or religious movement places us. Jesus told us to keep asking, keep seeking, and keep knocking. Proverbs and Ecclesiates tell us to seek wisdom above all else. If we stop seeking God for ourselves and simply accept the spoon-feeding from religious leaders, we set ourselves up for the false teachings of false prophets to come in the latter days. —The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages <tww, Apr-08-2007>|unsigned]] comment was added by 71.63.102.120 (talk) 18:58, 8 April 2007 (UTC).

The issue of what actually did or did not happen two milennia ago is not what my response was concerned with; I was simply explaining how it is that the crucifixion is by tradition commemorated on a Friday, Easter on a Sunday, and yet "on the third day" is always the wording. Doops | talk 19:23, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Doops, Your point is now made and understood with more clarity. But unfortunately, it is still grossly incorrect and unsupported by fact. The statement that Christ arose on the "third day" is a truncation of the actual prophetic message. It is also very dangerous and misleading to use this terminology out of context because it begs the question... "what third day?" Ridiculous arguments can be made to support any "third day" scenario. Scripture is the final authority and very specific. Jesus did not say that He would simply be raised on the "third day" and leave it at that. He very specifically said the only sign given would be that of Jonah... THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS. (see Jonah 1:17 and Matthew 12:40) You cannot get three days and three nights with a Friday crucifixion and a Sunday morning resurrection. It doesn't work. I supported my position by Scriptural, cultural, historical, agricultural evidences. I see you are a young Harvard grad and probably not without intellectual merit. I applaude your effort to give time and concern to the value Wikipidea brings to the web. But I will say to you again, stick to commenting on Wikipedia topics about which you possess Godly, scholarly knowledge. In matters where you are lacking, read, study, and research to gain years of knowledge and wisdom; then enter into the fray. This venue needs to present valid, well thought-out topics of discussion and dissention for people to contemplate in light of their own spritual and intellectual growth. <tww, 08-Apr-2007> —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.63.102.120 (talk) 20:22, 8 April 2007 (UTC).
This is all quite interesting, but it's utterly irrelevant to this article, since Wikipedia does not allow original research. The fact, quite apart from anyone's interpretation of anything, is that the vast majority of Christians commemorate the Crucifixion on a Friday and the Resurrection on a Sunday. That's all that matters to this article. —Angr 21:13, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
It also seems to me that Christians have been commemorating the crucifixion on Friday for as long as Christianity has existed, and no one ever suggested that it was the wrong day until some fundamentalists sometime around 1975. So why would anyone take it seriously?
"The Day of Preparation and the next day was to be a special Sabbath" seems pretty clear to most people who don't have some weird anti-Catholic axe to grind. Carlo 21:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

It's quite simple really: this is an encyclopedia. We describe things. Spiritual and intellectual growth aren't in the job description. Doops | talk 22:27, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Egg roll

I know much of the easter egg tradition is included in the easter bunny article however, what about adding the American?(not sure if it originated elsewhere.) tradition of the egg roll in the "Non-religious Easter traditions" section.

the Wikipedia entry is [1]

By egg roll I mean the tradition of racing others while propelling an egg with your nose or a spoon not the Chinese appetizer.

Sdumont 13:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

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