Talk:Earth/All-1to10

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Diverse Topics

Geologically speaking, wouldn't the Earth have only six continents? Europe and Asia are actually one land mass; the are different 'continents' in a cultural sense only. - Stephen Gilbert

That depends on what you mean by continents. Usually it refers to a land-mass within a continental shelf, though by that definition some islands would be continents. Defining continents as being separate because of culture (and vice-versa) is error-prone, as Europeans live across swaves of Asia, there are Asiatic peoples in parts of Europe, and Arabs live on both Africa and Asia.

Geologically speaking, one might talk of the different tectonic plates the earth has. Geographically speaking, one might talk about continents. Thus, I would add "...geographically dividing it into five oceans and seven continents". --Grant

If an entity from another system within the known universe (or any other universe for that matter) were to read (assuming that was possible) the Earth page, ya gotta wonder what said entity might think! --Grant

The count of oceans is at least as arbitrary as that of continents; the Arctic Ocean is clearly distinct, but there's no obvious place to divide the Indian Ocean from the Pacific, or the Antarctic from the Atlantic, Pacific, and Indian Oceans.

And the Southern Ocean?:)

Also, are imports and exports even meaningful concepts here? --Vicki Rosenzweig

I think the exports and imports part has some interesting information ($5.6 trillion a year in production; shows who produces it and where it goes). Is there some easier and immediately understood way to phrase it? --KQ

I added a note explaining that imports and exports were actually internal trade among the nations of Earth, and that no significant extraterrestrial commerce is occurring at this time. Bryan Derksen

At this point the wikipedia is a compendium of human knowlege if an alien were to read the wikipedia he/she/it mighe find that it did not reach an ideal NPOV, but who cares? I'd argue that we can't possibly do this without the input of the aliens themselvs, and anyway if aliens start reading and getting involved in the wikipedia, we'll have to change a lot of things anyway... MRC

Yeah, like the You were NOT abducted by aliens, you damn drunk page. --Stephen Gilbert

Consistency or no, I'm not going to move most of Earth to Earth (planet) right now. From an astronomy point of view that would be logical, but I suspect its orbital parameters and suchlike aren't what people first think of when they think Earth. However, there is a slight ambiguity problem with Earth-as-our-world, Earth-as-a-planet, and earth-as-soil. Is this best left as-is, or is there a better way to handle it? -- April

  • Sounds good to me, to leave as is. Earth for the kind of information already there, Earth (planet) for any astronomical type thingies (yup, being technical today) and soil as the topic for the Earth (soil) type thingies (if it's already done that way). Rgamble


Deleted the reference to "intelligent species, including humans, apes, dolphins and maybe a few others". Ranking other species as "intelligent" gets into a whole load of complex debates that it's really not worth getting into here - for instance, there's research currently claiming some extremely impressive cognitive abilities for parrots that I'd imagine others working in the area would dispute hotly. --Robert Merkel

From the main article:

There is evidence that these processes are not balanced. Historical measurements of the mean sea level indicate that the Earth's ocean level is falling at a rate of approximately one foot per century, even in the face of warmer weather that should melt ice from the poles. This may be due to a combination of subductive trapping of water, and ultraviolet cracking.

At this rate of ocean level drop, over the past five billion years the ocean level would have fallen approximately 9,500 miles. Does anyone know the real rate at which water is being lost? Bryan Derksen

Don't know the real rate, but that statement doesn't seem right to me. The author will first have to define "historical" and then have to explain away the fact that at the pre-dawn of human history much of the continental shelfs' were exposed as the last of the continental glaciers receeded. Since that time there has been a continued and long term increase in sea level with some of the fastest rates of increase occuring in the last 100 years. It has been estimated that there are probably hundreds and maybe thousands of submerged human archeaological sites in the world. Earthquakes and local subsidence can't explain them all. The author may have misread the fact that water in our oceans are continually cycled through subduction zones of the Earth and may have thought that this water was somehow lost. Far from it. It is recycled by becoming so super (and I mean super) critically hot that it melts surrounding rock and eventually escapes through volcanoes as steam (in fact without water we would have no plate tectonics to speak of). In addition to this is the fact that the earth is being bombarded with millions of tiny coments (well, smallish snowballs of ice and dirt) that I've read actually adds a non-insignificant amount of water to the oceans each year. --maveric149
As I recall, the millions-of-mini-comets theory is still considered to be pretty speculative. It's main proponent is one guy, and he hasn't yet gathered enough evidence to convince a lot of other astronomers to take him seriously. But irregardless of that, I'm going to remove the paragraph I quoted above for the time being; it's sufficiently fishy that it should be off of the main article until fixed IMO. Bryan Derksen

---

I added in the obligatory Mostly Harmless to pay homage to Douglas Adams' "The Hithchiker's Guide to the Galaxy", where the description of Earth in the Guide is simply the two words, "Mostly Harmless." Trust me, people will understand.

---

A lot of this stuff is from the CIA World Factbook. Don't let that scare you, it's entirely unclassified info, but there may be some copyright issues. The factbook is available for browsing at www.odci.gov

The CIA World Factbook is in the public domain; there are no copyright issue because it is not copyrighted.
As for the "Mostly Harmless..." I doubt it's going to survive more than a few hours. Now, I admit, I like slipping an occasional subtle little joke into an encyclopedia article as much as the next guy, but the key is to make it subtle; slapstick humor sticks out like a sore thumb. Ideally, a Wikipedia joke is an easter egg that most people won't even notice. Bryan Derksen, Friday, June 14, 2002

---

I really feel it is remiss not to include the Mostly Harmless thing *somewhere* in the page. It's not a joke, it's something that deserves to be linked. How about at the "other names" area? Is that OK, or are you going to ban me again?

I wasn't the one who banned you, but I agreed with the sentiment. The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy may have been a fine book indeed, but look at the big picture; it was just a funny science fiction novel that happened to get a cult following in some parts of the world among certain groups. If "mostly harmless" goes in, then what about all the other hundreds or thousands of novels that have made up funny facts about Earth? Bear in mind that we're trying to create an actual encyclopedia here, something that students might use as a resource for serious assignments and such. Jokes are all well and good, but they shouldn't mislead or present irrelevant information. Bryan Derksen
I agree. The "mostly harmless" stuff is really only appropriate in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy article and maybe as a quick mention in the Douglas Adams one. --maveric149

---

Well let me further my point, then I'll put it to rest. There will be two types of people looking at the Planet Earth article: people who want statistics about the planet and people who just want to see the entry "mostly harmless," just like in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. This is already seen in everything2.com, hhg.com and a few other distributed encyclopedias like this one. What's the big deal? People expect it! I'm not the only one who has attempted that edit, according to your change history. With there being a demand and the likeliness that someone else will try it again, why not just put it in?--Anon

Because it is irrelevant to an article about the Earth and wikipedia is not everything2 or hhg. See above statements against this again. --maveric149

Whatever the CIA may think, it is false at present to speak of the Earth's economy as having imports and exports -- to say nothing of external debt! --FOo

Look a few lines farther down, where there's the following note: (Note: All exports, imports, debts and economic aid listed are between nations on Earth. There are currently no significant extraterrestrial imports or exports.). This is already taken care of. :) Bryan
  • Ha! The USA's Apollo program imported aproximately 381.7 kg of moon rock and dust. If you caught the story earlier this year of someone illegally trying to sell a one gram moon rock for $5million, you will see that the Earth has imported some $19085 Billion worth of moon! This far exceeds the millions of dollars of technological goods we have exported to the rest of the solar system in the form of satelites and probes. The Earth has a most favorable balance of trade indeed! ;-) --Infrogmation
I bet it's not so good when you total up the costs of all the space probes that we've sent out, never to return, over the past fifty years or so! NASA alone is spending $15 billion per year right now, and that was even higher back during Apollo times, and then there's inflation... add in an equivalent amount for the Soviets, and then some for ESA, and the Japanese and the Canadians and all the other countries with space programs, and you'll see that those 19 trillion dollars worth of moon rocks were hard-bought. And that doesn't even begin to consider the value of all the slave labor that aliens took from the Egyptians and Mayans thousands of years ago... :) Bryan
Yearly exports: $5.6 trillion (f.o.b., 1999 est.) - this begs the question, which planets are we exporting to? :) This should be marked as internal trade; interplanetary shipping isn't quite there yet ;)
it raises the question, it doesn't beg it. -- Tarquin 16:07 Mar 5, 2003 (UTC)

Describing Earth as the only planet known to be inhabited by living organisms is unacceptable and violates NPOV. There have been countless research teams claiming and disputing evidence from Mars meteorites and the Viking probes; some researchers still claim that the Viking probes successfully demonstrated the existence of life on Mars [1], [2]. To these researchers, the fact that there are microbes on Mars is "known", even if it is disputed by others. Referring to intelligent life lets us avoid the whole life on Mars controversy. --Eloquence 21:52 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

I strongly disagree, even if it's extremly probable that live exist elsewhere, Earth is the only place that we KNOW that live exist. Same for the microbes on Mars meteorites (although these are far from certain, the arguments are very tenous: strange form of crystallization which ressemble to what is sometimes formed by some bacteries), it is NOT certain. A remark concerning the possibility of microbes on Mars meteorites should be better. -- looxix 22:04 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)
Knowledge and certainty are far less, well, certain concepts than you may think. To Gil Levin, it is certain that the Viking experiments have revealed evidence of microbial life on Mars. To some scientists who studied ALH84001 and other meteorites, it is also certain that these rocks contain evidence of microbial life -- certain enough for the news that "life on Mars" was discovered to make international headlines. For some time, it was "common knowledge", that there was microbial life on Mars, until another research team disputed the ALH findings. The point of NPOV is to reflect these different opinions about what is or is not true accurately. The Earth article is not the place for it, so we can nicely sidestep the issue by referring to intelligent life, with a link to life where the problem is discussed in more detail. --Eloquence 22:19 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

Now we agree more or less on the content but it doesn't look OK. I think something like this is better:

the only one in the universe known to harbour life although it is possible that life/microbial life exist or have existed on Mars (see ALH84001).

I think this is OK form the correctness of the information, NPOVness and the presentation. -- Looxix 02:30 May 11, 2003 (UTC)

"It is possible" is a different statement from "some people think that ..". From what we know, "it is possible" that intelligent life exists in the universe. To say that "it is possible" that life exists on Mars is to ignore the POV of those who think that evidence of life on Mars is already sufficient. Compare: "It is possible that God exists" vs. "There is a continuing philosophical controversy regarding the existence of God".
Sure, it's why I use it is possible (from ascientific point od view) vs some people think (like in "some people think that the moon is made of green cheese"). -- Looxix 03:08 May 11, 2003 (UTC)
It is simply a very weak statement. Even most of those who disagreed with the ALH findings would agree that "it is possible" that life exists/has existed on Mars. It does not reflect the degree of the controvery. --Eloquence 03:15 May 11, 2003 (UTC)
Furthermore, ALH84001 is not the only element of the Mars life controversy. A link to the article about Mars is completely sufficient. See, this is why I wanted to keep this out: Because it leads us into off-topic territoriy. --Eloquence 02:52 May 11, 2003 (UTC)

As a casual reader, this article seems to be very uneven. It's missing sections on:

  • ecology (vegetation, animals, fungi, bacteria etc, and subsuming the existing Environment and Natural Hazards sections)
  • prehistory and history (probable emergence from the sun, development of land/ocean mix, evolution of plants and animals, mass extinctions, emergence of humans, tribal stability, aggressive agriculture spreading worldwide from Iraq, Sumerians, Greeks, Romans, China, Mayans, Dark Ages, Ottoman Empire, Renaissance, technology, colonialism, violent 20th century)
  • culture (religions, justice systems, art and music, broadcast and narrowcast media)
  • politics (the current ideas of "nation states" and subordinate cities; democracies and republics, monarchies, dictatorships; the UN, current dominance of the US and EU).

I am not suggesting the article should become much longer to fit these in. They should be brief summaries with lots of links, with a slight bias towards those subjects which don't fit easily into obviously named articles. (E.g. the History section should lean slightly more towards those phenomena, like war, which aren't conveniently confined to an article on one modern-day country).

In addition, there's a lot of stuff here which doesn't seem nearly important enough to be in an article of this size on Earth in general. Some examples:

  • the composition sections are far too detailed (get thee to mantle, biosphere, etc!)
  • the Moon (is the existence of total eclipses really more important than the existence of Antarctica or broadcasting or bacteria?)
  • the list of land-locked countries (why not a land-locked article?)
  • the International Space Station (space exploration)
  • human age structure (human)
  • electricity production and consumption (electricity)
  • Internet service providers (Internet)
  • railways (railways).

Perhaps the items in the latter list could be moved to their own articles first, shrivelling the relevant sections in Earth as you go (and adding links if necessary), before any new sections are added. That would avoid the article getting too unwieldy.

-- mpt, May 1, 2003

This article is about the Earth, not human history. Thus the composition of the Earth, the distribution of land, climate and such is most appropriate while the biosphere should be taken as a whole - just a part of what the Earth is. The human stuff should be very minimal and what is there should concentrate on how humans have changed the Earth (its climate, amount of arable land, desertification, deforestation, etc). --mav
I'm unsurprised by that argument, but still very troubled by it, in three directions. (1) If, eventually, entries were made for other well-studied planets where social beings live, surely those entries would have sections on the history, culture, politics, and economics of those planets. Why not for Earth? (2) If you regard that as too hypothetical: Why do we already do what I'm proposing for Earth, for smaller areas? Why do the articles on Detroit, Connecticut, New Zealand, or Africa (for some differently-sized examples) have sections on history, demographics, economy, etc, while Earth as a whole can't? (You could argue that such areas differ from Earth in that they're human demarcations, but many if not most of them are heavily influenced by geography.) (3) If the sections I'm proposing don't belong in Earth, where do they belong? World History sends me into ever-finer specificity without providing a potted outline; there is no Politics of Earth to tell me about the current dominance of the nation state, the US and the UN; and so on. Perhaps these should be separate articles, like the infant Economy of Earth, linked from this article; but as soon as you start a new article, there will be implicit pressure to make it more detailed than a casual reader might want.
And yes, I am volunteering to write such sections if necessary, because making them both informative and extremely concise would be a challenge I'd enjoy. -- mpt, May 17, 2003
If and when these other intelligently inhabited planets are found and if and when human cultures coalesces into a world culture under a world government, then, and only then, would we have the same type of info in this article as we have for political and cultural geography entities. We have no world culture and no world government - therefore we deal with physical geography (which includes climate, geology and oceanography). Beyond that we need to cover the biosphere as well and how it interacts with the non-living parts of the earth. --mav 07:56 17 May 2003 (UTC)
I wish that was a convincing way to draw the line. But we don't have a single African government or European government either, and their entries still have History and Politics sections (albeit Europe's sections don't have headings). That also sounds rather biased against, say, Anarchism -- if there were several anarchistic states in the world, would that political system not be mentioned in their entries, because it was neither unusual nor a Government? ... And as for claiming we don't have a "world culture", that sounds as strange as claiming we don't have a world economy. -- mpt

Eloquence removed

  • "In The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams, an Earthman is affronted to find that his planet's entry in the Guide consists only of the single word "Harmless". The Guide researcher reassures him that the next edition will improve upon this. The new entry will read, "Mostly harmless." The Guide also tells of the creation of earth by inhabitants of the planet Magrathea.

Maybe it is too wordy, but I think it is beneficial to at least have links to creation stories written by contemporary writers. Mythological information is provided in the Earth article. So should popular fictitious references. Maybe we can find a compromise. Kingturtle 02:36 May 14, 2003 (UTC)

Yes. Move it to Earth in fiction and link to it (we already have Mars in fiction, which is linked from Mars (planet)). --Eloquence 02:52 May 14, 2003 (UTC)
did it. Kingturtle 03:03 May 14, 2003 (UTC)

Kingturtle's quote of what Eloquence removed is incomplete. The opening sentence was, "There is a long-running joke relating to the treatment of the Earth in encyclopaedias." This is true, and arguably relevant to a treatment of the Earth in an encyclopaedia. I added the explanation which followed, just to explain what the joke was. It was not intended as "DNA fandom stuff". (The bit about Magrathea wasn't me...) As well as being arguably relevant, it would quite likely (as a minor bonus) stop random passers-by from adding the "Mostly harmless" phrase themselves, in a less encyclopaedic way, as they quite often do. -- Oliver P. 16:40 May 14, 2003 (UTC)

The idea that somehow Douglas Adams' (certainly entertaining) fiction should receive preferential treatment in an article about our home planet seems quite bizarre to me. You know how many jokes, stories and tales about Earth there are? You could fill gigabytes of harddisk space with them. And certainly Earth in fiction will ultimately grow to become a quite impressive article. But this kind of material is completely off-topic in the main article itself. The argument that we should add the reference so people don't add the "Mostly harmless" joke is a weak one -- we do not accommodate undesirable behavior to get rid of it. See Wikipedia:Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense. Wikipedia is not H2G2. --Eloquence 21:32 May 14, 2003 (UTC)
I was not proposing any preferential treatment of the joke on the basis of who its author was. It's the only well-known joke, by any author, on the subject of the encyclopaedic treatment of the Earth. That was my point. It's not just that it's any old joke that happens to be about the Earth, of which there are obviously many. And I wasn't proposing accommodating undesirable behaviour; I merely stated that as a minor bonus the paragraph would help ward off undesirable behaviour. There is a difference. However, I withdraw my suggestion, as the paragraph did look out of place, and nobody seems to have understood its intent anyway... -- Oliver P. 09:59 May 15, 2003 (UTC)
I vote for including "Mostly Harmless" at the end of the Earth article. Yes, Wikipedia is meant to be a factual site, but one little humorous reference won't destroy its credibility. Lighten up. --Lee M
And I vote against it. It's hardly relevant to the Earth article, though it may be relevant to one on Douglas Adams. Koyaanis Qatsi

The following irrelevant material has been removed from the article. This entry is about the planet Earth. This article is not about all facts and information about the human race! This article also is not the Main Page of an encyclopedia. We do not just jam every topic in the world into one entry, because the entry is titled "Earth". Get a grip! RK

(Moved to Economy of Earth by Bryan)

I really think the discussion of human civiliation here is very overblown, amd totally of place. Everything we have here, including the data, should be summarized in a paragraph. And in all seriousness, it wouldn't hurt to mention the Douglas Adams bit, next to the link about the Earth in fiction. RK

Where should this go? David J. Stevenson, Professor of Planetary Science at Cornell University, has just published "A Modest Proposal: Mission to Earth's Core", a paper published in Nature (May 15, 2003) A Modest Proposal: A Mission to the Earth's Core

I removed this from the article, for now:

Some scientists believe that the moon may be essential to the existence of life on the Earth. Without the moon, the Earth would freeze to a solid crust, as Venus and Mars have. As a result, carbon rock would cease to be recycled, eventually causing life to fix all gaseous Carbon and then die. Without life, Oxygen would slowly combine with surface rocks, and the ozone layer would disappear. At this point, sublimated water vapor would begin to be cracked by solar ultraviolet, and the Earth's hydrogen would be eliminated by the solar wind. In less than a hundred million years, Earth would resemble Mars.

What do you mean by "some scientists"? To the best of my knowledge, this is not a mainstream idea anymore; my reading is that such ideas did exist in the 1960s and 1970s, but they are no longer considered viabl arguments. Are you claiming that some form of this argument has resurfaced in the mainstream? I would like to see some references on this point. It seems to me that much of this article was written as an argument to show that life can't possibily exist on any planet except Earth, and that life here is due to one random chance that can't be counted on to occur anyplace else. RK

RK, I don't agree with your removal of the Earth-related data. Think about it: You open up a page in the Encyclopedia Galactica for a populated planet -- what do you expect to find? Certainly more than just a summary of the planet's physical characteristics. We may have to reorganize this stuff, but the article Earth should certainly be an entry point to many related subjects. Removing all information about the global economy while retaining a link to Earth in fiction is also blatantly inconsistent. --Eloquence 02:15 May 15, 2003 (UTC)

I second you on this one :-) -- Looxix 02:30 May 15, 2003 (UTC)

How about moving that material to a more specific article, for example Economy of Earth (in the same pattern as the CIA factbook pages for countries), and then linking to it in the same way that Earth in fiction is linked to? I agree with RK that there was a great deal of stuff in this article which didn't fit well here. Bryan

_____

I added a link to Chandler wobble - wasn't sure where else to put it! Planetary geology hasn't been done yet. - David Stewart 10:18 May 15, 2003 (UTC)

want to start polar motion? -- Looxix 21:09 May 15, 2003 (UTC)

Mostly Harmless

Please stop adding this to the earth article. It's getting really boring now and will just keep being removed. Secretlondon 12:10, Dec 3, 2003 (UTC)

Newbies wil keep on adding it forever unless some kind of filtering system is introduced to remove it. Anyway, "Mostly Harmless" is mostly harmless. --Werdle Sneng

"Nearly all humans live on the Earth." Indeed. Where do the rest live? Adam 10:47, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The International Space Station. Bryan 19:34, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Nobody "lives" on the Space Station. They live on Earth and spend tours of duty there. Adam
The definition of "lives" is quite debateable in this context. Perhaps simply mention in the article that this is where the off-Earth humans are located and leave it to the reader to decide whether they "live" there or not. Bryan 20:09, 26 Dec 2003 (UTC)
If someone spends a year on an oilrig, you'd say they're living there, wouldn't you? -- Tarquin 20:14, 26 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I would, personally, but others might not (such as Adam, above). Further complicating things is that I don't think anyone's spent a full year on the ISS, so it's even closer to the fuzzy borderline. I don't think the issue's big enough to worry about, myself. Bryan 20:31, 26 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I hate to be pedantic (!), but one "lives" in one's home. A work assignment, even a prolonged one, is not where one lives. There are naval personnel atm who have spent a year on an aircraft carrier - do they live there? They do not, they live at their homes. Ask them. The line is just someone being clever, which I don't mind, but it isn't encyclopaedic. Adam 01:32, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)


Also: "Earth has one natural satellite, "the Moon", which revolves around the Earth." Is this not a rather geocentric view? In fact the Earth and the Moon revolve around each other, or rather around a point between them, closer to the Earth than to the Moon because of the Earth's greater mass. If we were living on the Moon, the Earth would appear to be revolving around us, no? Adam 10:53, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The Earth-Moon barycenter is located well underneath the surface of Earth, so the Moon really can be said to be orbiting Earth. I see nothing overly "geocentric" about this, it's factual. Bryan 19:34, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

In contrast to the degree by which Luna orbits Terra; Terra's "orbit" of Luna is negligible. Lirath Q. Pynnor


Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

This is Archive_ 2 covering 2004.

Talk archives for Earth (current talk page)
<< 1 All-1to10 5 >>

Missing info

How did the Earth form? What aspect of the Earth or its location do astrobiologists hypothesize as having been crucial to the development of its most idiosyncratic feature--life. How did life emerge and when. Have there been any noteworthy biological events since the appearance of the first cell? How does the emergence and history of life relate to geological and climate evolution? How often is Earth hit by asteroids? What have been the consequences? Do we expect more?

How did scientists determine the average density of the earth? - The average density is Mass divided by Volume. To find the volume you need the radius which you can find by measuring the curvature of the Earth like Eratostenes did about 230BC. Then you know the volume of the Earth (assuming it is sufficiently spherical). To measure the mass you need to know the gravitational constant which was measured sometime I believe sometime in the 18th century. You apply Newton's law for gravity (the one with inverse-square radius) and you have the mass.

How many human-made satellites are there and when did the first one (sputnik) go up? If you count every single piece of manmade debris - millions. Sputnik - October 4th 1957.

How do people study the Earth? What kind of scientists study it? What questions plague us, if any? What are predicted fates of the Earth? What about the ozone hole? What about the Kyoto protocol? What about geomagnetic reversals?168... 05:22, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Humans living in orbit

Nearly all humans live on Earth: 6,327,152,352 inhabitants (November 1, 2003 est.)

Wow, that's an incredibly accurate "estimate"?? And what does it mean "nearly all humans live on Earth"?? Even those who are not on earth would not consider someplace outside earth their permanent residence. Certainly a more specific observation could be made (e.g. number of humans on average who are living in space at a given time). Revolver 01:19, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
This issue has been raised in talk: before. Note that the very next line of the article explains what "nearly" means; "In orbit about Earth: 2 astronauts (November 28, 2003), on board the International Space Station." Whether being on board a permanently manned space station for a portion of a year counts as "living" there is apparently a matter of debate, but I believe it should count; scientists who spend the winter at the Antarctic research base are often described as "living" there for the winter, and the situation is quite analogous IMO. Bryan 01:50, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Largest terrestrial planet

User:Cantus has twice removed this statement from the intro paragraph: "the largest terrestrial planet in the solar system." I disagree with the reasons he's stated in the edit summaries (first that Jupiter's core might be larger, and then that it was "anecdotal"), and think it is a totally reasonable thing to say in the intro. Cantus, could you explain in greater detail why you think it should be removed? Bryan 04:27, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I don't think there's any credible evidence of any terrestrial planet our solar system that is larger than earth. Cantus' objections are absurd. I say if it gets removed in the future, that should be considered vandalism unless there's a damn good explanation. --P3d0 01:45, Sep 23, 2004 (UTC)

Personally I'd re-phrase it to be: "largest of the inner planets in the solar system" --- but I tend to dislike the phrase "terrestrial planet" as used here in any event. To me a "terrestrial planet" is a term of science fiction and describes a planet with a breathable atmosphere. They are using a non-intuitive interpretation of the Latin root terra to equate Earth with a silicate crust. That implies that the moon is "terrestrial" (though not a "terrestrial planet"). I consider that to be counter-intuitive and the confusion caused by it to be wholly unnecessary.
Many would disagree with you on that. The term "terrestrial planet" is a well-defined scientific term. --P3d0 01:49, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
I personally don't think Jupiter's core counts as a terrestial planet. The huge layer of gases around it, forming most of Jupiter's volume, makes the physical conditions on Jupiter's core completely different from those on real terrestial planets. The same goes, of course, for Saturn, Neptune and Uranus as well. 193.167.132.66 11:46, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Personal opinions don't enter into it. The term is well-defined, and Earth is the largest of the four terrestrial planets, period. --P3d0 16:16, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
P3d0 is correct, except that NASA has a Terrestrial Planet Finder. Semantic questions should be settled by usage. Usage is determined by P3d0's Dictionary.com link, or by Googling "terrestrial planet". A planet's core is not called a planet, terrestrial or otherwise. Art LaPella 16:19, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
Excellent point. At least our own article on Terrestrial planets is clear enough. Whatever definition we use at Wikipedia, we should be consistent. --P3d0 16:51, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Temperature

Bryan Derksen, where are you getting that mean temperature from? Averaging the min and max gives 258, not 282... If that average temp. was obtained thru a different method, care to mention the source? --Cantus 06:00, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I don't know the source offhand, but the mean temperature of a planet is not necessarily just the max temperature plus the min temperature divided by two; those two extreme temperatures occur under exceptional conditions at just two particular locations on Earth's surface. Averaging them and calling that the mean would be like trying to determine sea level by averaging the height of Mt. Everest and the depth of the Mariannas Trench, so I'm not surprised it differs. :) Bryan 06:21, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
[3] has the mean temperature as 287 K, which is pretty close to the figure that was in the article. Bryan 06:28, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

natural satellite

the moon is not the only "natural satellite". E.g. the earth has captured an asteroid named Cruithne.

about mentioning the moon in a short article about earth: it's important. On this level, the earth is nothing than a planet among 9 others. The number of moons is characteristic and has to be meantioned.

No, Cruithne is not a moon of Earth; it's a co-orbital body at best. Trojan asteroids are not counted as moons of Jupiter and they're generally much more tightly bound than Cruithne is. I'm not sure what you mean about the importance of mentioning of the Moon in this article, since there's already a section all about it in here. Bryan 02:58, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Cruithne and the Trojan Asteroids are not "moons" but they are satellites.
You make it sound as though there were no controversy in that statement. --P3d0 01:54, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
They weren't put there by human effort ergo they are not artificial (hence, "natural"). Thus the original criticism seems valid; the Moon is not Earth's only natural satellite. One could argue that the Moon is Earth's only significant natural satellite; or that it's the only satellite visible to the naked eye from the Earth's surface.JimD 19:36, 2004 Sep 26 (UTC)
In the context of Cruithne, it is also worth mentioning the recently-discovered asteroid 2002 AA29. This is an asteroid that is co-orbital with the Earth. Occasionally, this asteroid is believed to enter into a quasi-satellite state, where it orbits the Earth and Sun in a period of 1 year. This asteroid is predicted to become a quasi-satellite in 2575.
More information on 2002 AA29: Earth’s New Travelling Companion: Quasi-Satellite Discovered --B.d.mills 10:57, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Year length ratio not right

I get 365.25636 / 365.2422 ≈ 1.00003877. Fredrik (talk) 19:25, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hmmm, that's a good point. Doing the calculation the other way around gives 365.25636 / 1.0000174 = 365.25 exactly. And likewise for the other planets: for Jupiter, 4330.595 days / 11.856523 years = 365.25 exactly.
It turns out that JPL is using a Julian year of exactly 365.25 days, which astronomers still use for ephemeris work because of the direct and simple conversion to the Julian date (which is really the fundamental way to mark a point in time in astronomy). So I edited Earth and the other planet pages to reflect this. -- Curps 20:08, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Magnetic field

The planet is big enough to have the core differentiated into a liquid outer core, which gives rise to a weak magnetic field due to the convection of its electrically conductive material, and a solid inner core.

It is generally believed that the rotation of the inner core (which is primarily composed of iron) creates the Earth's magnetic field. It is not known, exactly, why this occurs.

I think this is confusing. What is causing the magnetic field - inner or outer core? Are there two components of the field? This needs to be clarified. Paranoid 11:02, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It is not only confusing, but it would also appear to be inaccurate since it is the rotation of the outer core that creates the magnetic field. The solid inner core has a stablizing effect, but is probably not strictly necessary to maintaining the geodynamo. I will try to correct this section. Dragons flight 16:49, Jun 23, 2004 (UTC)
Thanks. Paranoid 18:15, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Irrelevant

Most of them have reported a heightened understanding of its value and importance, reverence for human life and amazement at its beauty, not usually achieved by those living on the surface.

Does this need to be in this article? Do we even have a source for it? Edward 10:01, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I was unsure about where to place it, the Earth actually felt like the most relevant. We probably don't have a source for the "most" bit - that would be 200+ people and there wasn't a study about it, but so far I've read such things said by both space tourists, by Glenn and a couple other American astronauts and by several Russian cosmonauts as well. Some of them mentioned that these feelings are common among other spacefarers too. I think this is quite important fact, even if it sounds a bit silly and pompous. This can also be connected to the (missing?) article about Pale Blue Dot. Paranoid 12:55, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Question about inclination

Inclination of Earth's orbit is given as 0.00005 degrees. Since this is the inclination to the Ecliptic, shouldn't this be 0 by definition? If the value given is related to some other plane, shouldn't that be made clear? Thanks. Amorim Parga 04:21, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

While I can't swear as to the origin of the particular number quoted, it is common to report orbital parameters with respect to either the J1950.0 or J2000.0 reference frames. In these reference frames the plane of the ecliptic and it's orientation is given by the orbit and position of the Earth at 12:00 AM, Jan 1, 1950 or 2000 respectively. So, at the moment that the plane is defined the inclination to the ecliptic is exactly 0, but because of perturbations from other planets, we will drift away from 0 (as measured in that frame) as time passes. Presumably this is the reason that the inclination is reported to be slightly non-zero, but I don't know at what time this was calculated or with respect to what reference frame. Dragons flight 04:41, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)
(grumble about ascending node self-deleted.) If, as I've come to suspect, it means WRT the mean plane of the orbit, then 1) meanness should be spec'd in ecliptic 2) this article should have the associated epoch included, because as the intersection of two damn near parallel planes surely the values change rapidly. 142.177.19.31 06:31, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Shouldn't the entry say "Mostly harmless." ?? Just drooling. ;-)

Torque Comparison

Someone attempted to add a comparison of the torques felt on the Earth by different astronomical objects in order to explain why the moon has a stabalizing effect on the axis of the Earth. For one thing, this is rather technical information and might not fit very well into this page, but worse than that, the numbers quoted were simply very wrong. It is clear from the scale of the numbers stated that the author was merely comparing the force exerted on the Earth from various astronomical objects. However the force is not the same as the torque. The torque depends not on the total force but on the difference in the force applied to one side of the equatorial bulge rather than the other. Because it is so close, the moon has the largest gravitational gradient across the Earth of any astronomical object (followed shortly thereafter by the sun). Hence, the Moon exerts the largest torque on the Earth and that is why the moon acts to stabilizes the Earth's axial tilt.

However, other factors are also important. For example, relatively constant torques, such as from the Moon and Sun tend to cause axial precession and not nutations or axial tilts. For other planets (e.g. Mars) the total torques exerted depend more significantly on where it is in its orbit with respect to its nearest neighbors (e.g. Earth and Jupiter). It is when such time varying torques are a significant component of the total torque that one tends to promote chaotic shifts in the planet's axis.

Dragons flight 18:56, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)

I agree that I did not take into account the variability of the torques (only the Sun and Moon apply constant torque), but that is a minor quibble --it is the very variability of these "pulse torques" that drives rotation into an eventual chaotic regime. After thinking about it some, I must admit Dragons flight is right that it is the tidal forces I should have used. It is thus right and proper to remove the erroneous sentence. It was a tad too technical anyway, and did'nt fit well with the flow of the text.
Urhixidur 03:01, 2004 Sep 12 (UTC)

Seems that the complex and as stated controversial subject of chaotic instability of Earth's axial tilt under moon should be moved to another article, maybe to axial tilt, rather than in this long general article. -Vsmith 01:49, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Humans/We

Cantus wrote: Encyclopedias are not written for aliens or animals.  So what's wrong with aliens (or animals) reading Wikipedia? — Monedula 11:55, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Population Estimate

Can we remove the specific number and round to the nearest 10,000? I'm pretty sure we haven't been able to get even that accurate as it is. Oberiko 17:10, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Round to nearest 1,000,000 IMHO. — David Remahl 20:32, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It's the classic distinction between accuracy vs. precision. Saying that the human population of the earth is approximately 6 billion (10^9 -- Americal billions) is accurate. Specifying a number with 8 or 9 significant digits is more precise but less accurate (as it implies a precision that is inappropriate to its scale). The fact is that the daily fluctuation in Earth's population is several thousand per day. There are thousands of births and deaths every day. I'd guess that the best precision would be on the order of 100,000 (since it's about one order of magnitude above the daily fluctuations which tend to cancel out with a slightly increasing trend that may be well documented in World population.JimD 19:47, 2004 Sep 26 (UTC)

Surface area

An anonymous user changed the surface area very slightly. I haven't done any calculations, but the change may even be within the error margin. However, I feared that this was one of the slashdot-inspired changes designed to evaluate the efficiency of Wikipedia peer review, so I'd like to find a recent supporting source for one of the numbers. However, my efforts of googling something up have been unsuccessful. Help? — David Remahl 20:32, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I can contribute some calculations. Hopefully it's good enough to assume an oblate spheroid with polar radius 6356.78km and equatorial radius 6378.14km, which are taken from our own Earth page (but which are more precise than the values listed in NASA's planetary fact sheet).

First, the eccentricity is defined by:

a2 = b2 + c2 = b2 + (ae)2

Solving for eccentricity e:

e^2 = \frac{a^2-b^2}{a^2}
e \approx 0.081772

Plugging into the formula for the area of an oblate spheroid:

S = 2 \pi a^2 + \pi \frac{b^2}{e} \ln(\frac{1+e}{1-e})
S = 510,067,420.24374628km^2\;

This is evidently the calculation performed by the anonymous editor. However, carrying it to the nearest square kilometer is excessive, since (for instance) that implies that the radius figures are accurate to the nearest centimeter (!!), and is also far beyond the accuracy of the oblate spheroid approximation. Certainly 510,067,000km² is more than enough precision. --P3d0 02:48, Sep 23, 2004 (UTC)

An unimportant point regarding the surface area of the Earth: the actual surface area of the Earth is slightly smaller than the surface area as calculated from its radius. This is due to the Earth's gravitational warping of space-time, and the difference is about an acre (about half a hectare).--B.d.mills 11:06, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Uranium Core

I recently read a rather interesting article in Science News or in New Scientist about a theory that the Earth may have a Uranium core deep inside our Iron core. The main thesis of this theory is that it accounts for otherwise inexplicable levels of energy.

Unfortunately I don't have the citations at hand and I'd be reluctant to add references to this theory without some discussion of it's merits. (In any event it would be posed only as a short counterpoint paragraph to the comment about the core's putative lack of heavier elements, especially uranium.

Here's one older link: Discover, August, 2002. (Normally I wouldn't consider Discover to be a compellingly credible source --- but I'm sure I read this elsewhere and was impressed with the logic of the theory).

JimD 20:11, 2004 Sep 26 (UTC)

The first line may be incorrect: Aliens may view this article

Where it says on the first line "Earth, the planet on which we live", that may be incorrect if aliens from another planet grasp satelite signals from our planet. In that case, we may offend them and they could sue Wikipedia for irrelevant information. I therefore feel we should change it to "Earth, the planet on which humans live". It's important that our information be as relevant as possible, and that is why we should change the first line.

Nonsense. Wikipedia is not written for aliens. Wikipedia is written for humans. Aliens who don't understand that must be very stupid aliens. Gerritholl 14:29, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Someone's been watching too much SciFi ;) Tom 04:23, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not written for aliens. But why not? What's wrong with aliens? — Monedula 06:41, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Regardless of our knowing about aliens reading this article or not, it surely would be the most factual characterisation of our home planet. I'd vote strongly for Earth, the planet on which humans live, with a correct link to an article explaining what a human is. The same should be applied to the solar system, the sun, which all should be called "our solar system", "our sun" instead. In this particular article only, of course. At least to emphasize our ability to not look at the baseline facts from the human-centric POV only. Maybe some kind of poll, ideas, anyone? Oneliner 19:52, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps a separate entry may be made for aliens to read: "Mostly Harmless".
Perhaps you should just bear in mind that fact that there's currently no evidence for past or current intelligent life or, in fact, any type of life in the Universe besides life on Earth. Wikipedia is supposed to deal with facts and established truths, not mere suggestions and controversial interpretations of incomplete data. For people keen on sharing knowledge with potential extraterrestrials, consider working in SETI. Smartech 00:59, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
But the phrase Earth, the planet on which humans live conveys a fact and an established truth, isn't it? — Monedula 07:22, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There is a moratorium on writing for extraterrestrials, which will be lifted simply by extraterrestrials participating in editing Wikipedia. (SEWilco 05:51, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC))
How do you know they are not already? Are you SURE none of the anons are aliens editing from Area 51? Of course, they and the govt would deny it. All your base are belong to us 13:52, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
If Aliens get Wikipedia off Satallite signals they must obviously be able to work out it is from another Planet, then they will find it is "Human Being", then they will realise by the time the signal got to them Earth will have exploded and 95% of Wikipedia will be irrelevant :) -Occono 15:46, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

Billion

I removed the word "billion" in the second most recent edit as of when this edit to the talk page was made, but then someone started to include both forms?? Any comments about whether the word "billion" should be kept?? 66.245.126.161 15:47, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Billion re-inserted along with scientific notation for clarity (for those who understand sci. not.). Billion is also used in several other places within the article and I inserted sci. not. with them also. May have missed some. Also did some more cleanup on this hodge-podge article at the same time. I'm the someone referred to in your note. Who are you? -Vsmith 16:40, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sol III

Earth is almost never called Sol III. Google hits:

Earth
11.100.000
Terra
4.650.000 (most indirectly related)
Sol III
4.340

The latter is almost exclusively science-fiction. It is not enough to be featured in the first line in the article about Earth. An obscure SF-term is not notable enough for that! Gerritholl 09:47, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

How about "Dirt"? Google shows 654 hits for "Planet Dirt" :) -- Arwel 22:50, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Third rock from the Sun
48.100

(SEWilco 05:54, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC))

Human life outside earth

Does anyone have any opinions about whether permanent human life outside earth can become possible?? Where in the universe is this?? (This question was brought to my attention based on something that Louis Epstein wrote a while ago about people living thousands of years, which he says advanced technology makes possible, but which can't become useful with human life staying completely on earth because earth will become too crowded.) (Also, if you have any external links that talk about doing so, feel free to include them.) 66.245.26.209 14:49, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm sure that most of us have opinions on that. In a galaxy of at least 100 billion (1.0E9) stars it seems pretty darn likely that there are a more than a few that have terrestial sized planets at suitable distances around Sol type stars for liquid water to pool on the surface. There is even some evidence to suggest that the distinctive ratio and distance between the Earth and the Moon could be quite common. (Simulations show that a planet forming from primordial gas would naturally form another body near the La Grangian point between the planet and its star. That would be at the L4 or L5 regions between Earth and Sol in this case. The presence of a Jovian sized and situated planet would rock the other body out of its La Grangian point, where it would collide with the major body (Earth) and probably form a moon like ours. This theory does account for the relatively large iron core on Earth with the correspondingly low iron content on the Moon, since the impact would vaporize and melt most of the material of both bodies and the heaviest elements would tend to sink to the center of the larger mass whild the light silica, aluminum, etc, would coalesce into the crust and into the sattellite).
So, in short, there are opinions and more importantly there are theories that describe the mechanics of how a terrestrial Earth/Moon system could readily form around any star similar to Sol with a Jovian planet at the appropriate distance. There are simulations that support these theories. (The fact that the Moon is so close and relatiively large might be vital to the evolution of terrestrial life due to tidal effects at least, and possibly due to the way that the Moon "sweeps" our orbits and apparently significantly reduces the number of meteoric and other collisions with Earth). From a cosmological point of view Earth and Sol and our entire Solar system shouldn't be remarkable. There are millions of other stars in this galaxy that are similar in all the respects that we can observe from here, and many of the models suggest that nearly identical planetary formations could readily occur in many of them. We only know of our Solar system's remarkable capacity to support terrestrial life because we happen to be here; and we know of know way that we could detect terrestial-similar life even as close as Alpha Centauri, much less further out.
I would find it likely that there are other planets that already support carbon, nitrogen, oxygen life forms. There might be thousands of them. It's possible that we are the only "intelligent" life form in this galaxy at this time. However, there are many superclusters, each consisting of tens of thousands of galaxies, each of which having at least hundreds of spiral galaxies like ours, and each of those containing billions of stars like ours. It would be the epitomy of arrogance to assume that this little bump on a speck in one of them is the only place in the observed universe were "we" can be found. However, that's just my opinion and an inkling of the reasoning upon which I've formed it.JimD 13:17, 2004 Dec 4 (UTC)

Artificial Satellites

I've seen no mention of the number of artificial satellites orbiting Earth. I think it is definitely worth noting that our planet has thousands of bits of metal that we put up there ourselves orbiting it, even if only from an astronomical standpoint. --Jacius 22:30, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't think it's possible to know how many "artificial satellites" there are, in the sense of separate objects in orbit which were put there by humans. Back in the 1960s there was an experiment which involved releasing millions of "needles" (or exploding a satellite into very small fragments, I forget which) into orbit to see how they behaved. This has polluted certain orbits ever since, and was a particularly stupid idea. -- Arwel 22:53, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

moon navigator

It would be good to link the various moon navigator's together, and provide a small page explaining them(it could be called Wikipedia:moon navigator). Right now, it's not obvious what purpose it serves. I don't have time to do it right now, but I'll do it if no one else gets to it. JesseW 13:39, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Infobox template

The template seems to have been corrupted. I don't know how to access it so I copied the infobox from before the template move (11-4) and pasted it back into the article. -Vsmith 01:00, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Looks like an anonymous user chopped off the last few lines of the template, which removed the table-termination code (as well as the "edit this template" link that would have made it easier to fix :). The entirety of the article wound up being engulfed by the table as a result. I've fixed it now. Bryan 02:04, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thanks. I had figured that was the likely problem, just couldn't find the template file to fix it. I'm learning... -Vsmith 03:20, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Whenever you see something in curly brackets like {{this}}, you can usually find it at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:this. The exception is when it's explicitly in another namespace, such as {{Wikipedia:this}}, a trick that's used in many of the "voting" administrative pages to keep things tidy. That doesn't come up in regular articles, though. Bryan 03:48, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That Image of Earth is 5 MBs...

Rather large for an article don't you think?

http://commons.wikimedia.org/upload/f/f4/The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.png

Zen Master 05:15, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The image that's actually displayed on Wikipedia is only 110kB, though, since it's been thumbnailed. You only download the 5MB version if you click through the thumbnail. Bryan 08:00, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
yeah but still too big, and links to too big of a file. I guess wikipedia gets their bandwidth for free. Zen Master 08:16, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think it's donated by Bomis. — David Remahl 08:21, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Personally, I think it's good both for the reason that extra resolution is always better for free content when possible(makes reuse easier), and the impression that the earth is as big as it is is strengthend by having an image that can't easily be displayed on one screen. ;-) JesseW 08:43, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree about the resolution, but what about modem or other slow users and if wikipedia's bandwidth really is free may I have some too? Zen Master 10:05, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I just added a note to the caption.(On Template:Planet Infobox/Earth) Re: free bandwidth; you just did, and do everytime someone looks at your User page. ;-) JesseW 05:47, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hollow Earth?

I've heard talk about a hollow Earth theory.. and I've done little research on it with Google. I'm not sure if it's complete bogus or if it's true, but some people seem to believe the theory (and some claim to have traveled inside Earth). Shouldn't something about this theory about Earth be included? --Mike 07:43, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There's an article about it at Hollow Earth. Oddly enough, it's not linked to from this article; I'll fix that. Bryan 08:47, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

This is Archive_3 covering March 25, 2006 - August, 8 2006.

Talk archives for Earth (current talk page)
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Tellus

Shouldn't we mention something about Tellus? [anon]

I noticed this after adding a short note to the intro. The OED attests Tellus from c. 1430. Its definition:
(tɛləs) [L. tellūs.]
In Roman mythology, the goddess of the earth; hence, the earth personified; the planet Earth, the terrestrial globe.
Examples:
The Spring swell'd by some smoaking Shower, That teeming Clouds on Tellus surface poure.
Reason, like Sol to Tellus kind, Ripens the products of the mind.
There are some adjectival forms, such as Tellural, that the OED has only attested from other dictionaries. Telluric of course is ambiguous as to whether it refers to Tellus or Tellurium, but was used for the Earth (and generic earth) in the 19th century:
The equal periods that are marked for us by the celestial and telluric revolutions.
The great problem of telluric magnetism.
Epidemic influences..dependent in a great measure upon obscure atmospheric or telluric conditions.
A ‘telluric poison’ is generated in [the Campagna] by the energy of the soil.
The form Tellurian is unambiguous. The OED has:
(tɛˈl(j)ʊərɪən) [f. L. tellūr-em the earth + -IAN.]
A. adj. Of or pertaining to the earth; earthly, terrestrial. B. n. An inhabitant of the earth.
Examples, again, all from the 19th century:
The stratified cemetery of the ‘tellurian’ crust.
There were..solar, lunar...[and] tellurian..methods of accounting for a myth.
If any distant worlds..are so far ahead of us Tellurians in optical resources.
Our own case, the case of poor mediocre Tellurians.
kwami 2005 July 7 21:13 (UTC)

Social statistics in the infobox

Identifying Earth with the human race seems rather inaccurate to me. There must be a more appropriate article for those stats to go in. I would recommend human. Bonalaw 09:55, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I say they should stay here. You might split out Earth (planet) (which now redirects here, move info to that article instead) with information similar to that in Mercury (planet) and Venus (planet) and the like, leaving only a little of that here with link. Gene Nygaard 10:36, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I dislike that new info box with human social statistics. The rest of the article is mostly on the physical characteristics of the earth, it seems as though the social statistics are out of place.

Also I would like to point out that there are exactly two (2) refferences for this article when I am typing this. This number should be far far higher for an article as important as this one. Harley peters 20:40, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the social statistics definitely needs to go. I suggest moving it to human. Fredrik | talk 18:49, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

New illustrations available

For the Swedish article I've created an illustration of Earth's interior. If you like it you might want to add it here as well. Have a look at:

  1. commons:Image:jordens_inre_med_siffror.jpg
  2. commons:Image:jordens_inre.jpg

/ Mats Halldin 06:00, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I like the carbon cycle diagram --Smartech 07:04, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Mostly Harmless needs to be put somewhere at the top of the page, as it would deter vandalism

Anyone else in favor of wiping out the article and replacing it with the words "mostly harmless"? I thought I'd survey public opinion before doing it myself. Halidecyphon 20:41, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I just resisted the temptation, myself. - RJ Mar 2005

It's been done over and over and over and over and over and over (deep breath) and over and over again. It was barely funny the first time. :) Bryan 07:43, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Before you do it you must file proper paperwork for "Interstellar Topic Bypass" at the regional Vogon consulate. (SEWilco 17:16, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC))
It is highly reccomended that you attend a vogon poetry recital while there, preferably before filing Kim Bruning 17:33, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
#REDIRECT H2G2 -- Solipsist 20:49, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I especially like the part of a recent valdalism stating GDP of $900 billion per capita, if inflation doesnt skyrocket as well :) Smartech 07:02, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I do think there should be "Listed as Mostly Harmless in The Hitchhickers Guide to the Galaxey" ;imWACC0
I put 'mostly harmless' in there at a lesser extreme. If you want to see it, go to the main page of this article. Nobody seems to mind, since it's not blanking. Well, before I did it, I got banninated for repeatedly blanking it. Hehehe. Flameviper12 13:13, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

List of people tempted to do this, who thought better of it after reading the note at the top of the page

  • 195.158.9.78 12:02, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
I say we should do it, but perhaps there should first be a poll, perhaps on the main page. Tribute to the greatest writer who ever lived is always important.
Above unsigned comment by 207.239.12.200, a user who has done the "blank and Mostly Harmless" thing several times, despite several warnings (including a specific request not to do so by me on May 13 here). --Deathphoenix 21:14, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
iT MUST BE DONE, but whoops, I left my Caps Lock on. Hahaha! I have been banninated for this before, I learned. Hehe. Flameviper12 13:15, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

How about this. Next time someone replaces it with "mostly harmless", we slap a copyvio template on it? --SPUI (talk) 22:44, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

The irony is that anyone who tries to describe Earth as "mostly harmless" in an encyclopedia is missing the point of the joke anyway. --Bonalaw 11:40, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

I considered changing it. Should I? Go on, let me. It'll be funny.

And I didn't even know you could put comments in articles like that...Fantom 19:31, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Why don't we just add it as a quotation like in the Italian page: [4] I know that the joke is replacing everything Ford Prefect fellow wikipedia contributors wrote with "mostly harmless"... but it should be mentioned --Lou Crazy 05:59, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

How about an article for the Hitchhiker's entry on Earth? Article name: 'Earth: 'Mostly Harmless'' Let's see how long this lasts. oneismany 13:33, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Shape

Recently 67.161.42.199 added:

The earth is a very slightly oblate spheriod, with a average diameter of approximately 12,742 kilometers. Since the highest point on the earth, the summit of Mount Everest is only 8,850 meters, the earth is spherical within a tolerance of one part in 1,439, or 0.00069 percent. The mass of the earth is approximately 6 sextillion metric tons.

The tolerance part of this is nonsense. We quote in the article "Equatorial diameter 12,756.28 km, Polar diameter 12,713.56 km", giving a difference equator to pole of 43 km at sea level. As I recall the point farthest from the center is actually at the top of some mountain in South America near the equator. Though the calculation is apparently wrong, it might still be worth having these few sentences, assuming someone here who isn't about to go bed can figure out how to accurately describe the shape of the Earth. Dragons flight 08:57, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

Mount Chimborazo, to be specific. This needs to be addressed. Fredrik | talk 15:06, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Image vs Infobox

User:Dragons_flight said that Image:Earth-crust-cutaway-english.png being placed on the right causes problems: "On wide screens, placing it on the right creates a huge gap between Core and Mantle." Not on my browser, even when expanding to span two monitors. Placing the image on the left can produce the text below on a more common width. (I'll work on the monster Infobox some to reduce various problems). (SEWilco)

[edit]
Mantle
Main
article:
Mantle
(geology)
Earth's
mantle
extends to
a depth of 2890 km. The pressure, at the bottom of the mantle, is

That looks better. I split the social box off, and moved it next to the Human section. Infoboxes tend to be at the top of an article, but that would widely separate the related text and box, with a lot of Earth_as_planet between. (SEWilco 05:33, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC))

What's Going on?

The first part of this article is total crap...I can't get rid of it cause I can't find it when I go to edit...something's wrong! Bremen 05:33, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

editnote template listed for deletion

In case someone is interested, the editnote template used in the Mostly Harmless reminder has been suggested for deletion: Templates_for_deletion#Template:Editnote Template author: (SEWilco 18:11, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC))

there are other solar systems

I really think the beginning of this article should be more general. (not signed by submitter)

If that's the case, the article for Solar system needs to be updated. It implies there is only one system centred on Sol. Notinasnaid 19:26, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
No, as this is about a specific planet. The beginning does have a link to solar system, which promptly mentions that if you are interested in bodies around other stars you should look at planetary system. (SEWilco 19:29, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC))

Featured article?

This article is great! Has it been featured yet? If it's not, then it should definitely be put up! LeoDV 7 July 2005 20:27 (UTC)

Okay, I nominated it. Let's see what happens. Dragons flight July 7, 2005 21:43 (UTC)
Prediction: Even more people will think it's cool to replace the article's contents with "Mostly harmless". :-)
Atlant 7 July 2005 22:13 (UTC)

Human social statistics Languages % table accurate?

The percentages (with the possible exception of Mandarin Chinese) seem seem to be way off compared to List of languages by total speakers or List of the most spoken native languages. Am I missing something here? --Slark July 9, 2005 06:45 (UTC)

Blue marble photo

How did the current blue marble photo get reverted to the old overly red image again? I don't even see it in the history! The version that I uploaded in place of it [5] seems gone now. --Deglr6328 21:48, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't know. The current image looks good to me: blue, white, and brown, just as it should. The one you just linked to comes out a horrible fluorescent green on my monitor. The problem with selecting colors that look good on one computer it that they won't look quite the same on anyone else's. kwami 22:46, 2005 July 10 (UTC)
I haven't tried to figure it out in the case of Earth, but based on the history of The Blue Marble, User:Reisio is clearly one person who had a problem with your version. You might go talk to him. Dragons flight 00:38, July 11, 2005 (UTC)
I guess what I want to know is how an image which was uploaded OVER antoher image can be reverted without anything in the history of that image's page....--Deglr6328 02:46, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Are you sure it was? There seem to be two images involved Image:The Blue Marble.jpg and Image:The Earth seen from Apollo 17.jpg? Also, did you upload it at commons or here? Sometimes when things are moved to commons part of the image history gets lost (which is really a very big no-no, but still happens). Dragons flight 03:00, July 11, 2005 (UTC)
Well back in March it was Image:Earth-apollo17.jpg that was a FeaturedPicture [6] but that one seems to have disappeared without trace. In the process, the {{FeaturedPicture}} tags have also been lost. I vaguely recall spending some time retouching NASA's scanning blemishes on one of these versions, but that record also seems to have disappeared. What I don't understand, is that I can't find any trace of the deleted edit histories. -- Solipsist 07:38, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Oblate/Oblique

I always thought it was an oblique spheroid, but this article calls it an oblate spheroid, how sure are you all about oblate? - (anon) 17:13, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

oh great, now someone's changed it to an ellipsoid )-: - (anon) 17:16, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Oblate is correct and is found in geodesy literature. Oblique would be incorrect. See the definitions that you linked to. (Don't know if spheroid is more correct than ellipsoid.) -- Kbh3rd 16:27, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

5270 K

This article, and the geothermal (geology) article it refers to, say the center of the Earth is 5270 degrees K. Looking at other websites, 5270 is in the right range but nobody else claims accuracy to the nearest 10 degrees, or even 100. Note that geothermal (geology) also offers the more reasonable guess of 4000 C or higher. I'll let somebody smarter decide what number to use, but I'm pretty sure 5270 has an overstated accuracy. Art LaPella 04:11, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

Nobody smarter has yet arisen, so I shall sally forth alone. Art LaPella 21:47, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

It's really pretty simple. The 5,270 K figure is obviously a conversion from 5,000 °C, by someone smart enough to realize not only that the factions are not significant but also that it clearly isn't accurate to the nearest degree either. I agree that it's probably not accurate to the nearest 10 kelvins either, but give the person who made that conversion credit for having some sense—it it points out the importance of retaining the original measurements when conversions are made, because they often provide the best clues as to the precision of the measurement. Gene Nygaard 03:51, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
I suppose this is the justification for the ridiculous accuracy given for the area of the earth as well, (since the two areas given in the same article don't even match EACH OTHER), which at the time of this writing, is 510,065,284.702 sq. km! The monthly change in the tidal bulge ALONE would wipe out that "0.702" by a mile, heheheh! Can't we use our high school science classes for SOMEthing? Can we at least round off the numbers to what is actually known, as opposed to what can be calculated on a computer? It leads people to presume more knowledge than we actually have. By the way, was that "factions" above supposed to be "fractions"? Change anything you want. I'm just another idiot, anyway. Aspie 23:56, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
I also find accuracy to within a thousandth of a square kilometre pretty unlikely, considering how bumpy this planet is. Yes, we can all apply equations from grade 10 maths, but it doesn't reflect reality.Kai 06:01, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Somebody smarter means somebody smarter than me. I hope it didn't sound like smarter than Mr. 5270. Art LaPella 05:05, August 6, 2005 (UTC)

Origin of word "earth"?

Obviously the planet's known as Terra in other languages, but how did the word "Earth" end up as the official title? What are its origins? When did it become widely accepted, rather than the mythological Roman name? --Marcg106 16:53, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Only in the Romance languages. "Terra" is "Earth", as in "Terra incognita". The mythological Roman name was "Tellus". Although that article claims our planet was named after the goddess Terra, the opposite is actually the case: she was simply the goddess "Earth". We call our planet the Earth for the same reason we call our star the Sun, and our moon the Moon: it's the English name for it. It's too familiar for foreign mythological names to have taken over. This is different from the case of the Morning Star/Even Star, which no longer seems appropriate as a name once you realize that it's a body of rock like the one we live on; this gave the name "Venus" a chance to take over. Even in Latin, the mythological names for the Earth, Moon, and Sun were probably not used in normal conversation. In Russian our planet is "Земля", which means Land/Earth. As for the history of its use, I'd imagine that it's "the world on which we dwell", metaphorically extended: from "living on earth" meaning being on land rather than in the heavens, it's come to mean being on our body of rock rather than in space; the whole rock is therefore "the Earth". kwami 08:50, 2005 August 7 (UTC)
My guess is that the tradition goes back to the Bible. Remember that Genesis has the "Earth separated from the waters" at creation (something probably borrowed from Egyptian creation myths), so even geocentric diagrams of our planet, the Sun and planets would naturallt have had the "Earth" rather than anything else. It's plainly because we're land-dwellers, nothing else.
Urhixidur 00:56, 2005 September 3 (UTC)

Neutrality

I am challenging the neutrality of this article. It states that the earth formed billions of years ago, and this is contrary to the beliefs of billions of people, in order for this article to present and represent information in an unbiased manor it should represent other theories and opinions. 68.248.33.155

THE ORIGIN OF PLANET EARTH IS NOT A VIEWPOINT. REPEAT, "NOT A VIEW POINT"! An encyclopedic entry on Earth is to contain factual, empirical truth. If you want to read about creationism, or any other mythological "theory", search for pages specifically dealing with them. You can't keep attacking scientific knowlege simply because it doesn't conform to whatever prefered reality you wish to live in. Seriously, it is just not acceptable for you to slip religious propaganda into the hard earned scientific knowlege accumulated by some of the greatest minds in human history. For shame!

An atheist, we have? Flameviper12 13:10, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
This is an article about the scientific understanding of the Earth. The proportion of scientists arguing for anything other than an Earth with billions of years of history is too neglible to be worth mentioning. Dragons flight 04:10, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
Do you want some cheese to go with your whine? Get just one billion of those "billions of people" to sign your petition. Actually, the portion of all people, nonscientists as well as scientists, arguing for anything other than an Earth with billions of years of history is also too negligible to be worth mentioning. Gene Nygaard 04:26, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Billions? Nonsense. Of the people who are educated enough to know that, for example, the Earth goes around the Sun, how many believe that the Earth is 6000 years old? It can't be more than a handful. --noösfractal 04:33, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry to report, but your HOPE that only a handful of people would believe such a thing is completely lacking any validity OR research on your part. I live in a tiny county, in a tiny town, full of tiny churches. I attended one tiny church until recently, and on one service alone, over 30 apparently rational adults burst out loud that they disagreed with the opinion of the adult school teacher that the creationist meaning of the Bible might not be 100% accurate. I live in a "liberal" state, not the Bible belt, so you can be sure, there are tens of thousands, if not millions, who ARE fervent believers. You MIGHT have to accomodate THEIR viewpoint
It is true that a large amount of people believe that the earth is less then a few thousand years old. However, more educated people do not believe in young earth ideas, because they are pseudoscience. It is important to note that 90% of Christian colleges believe and teach that the earth is 4.5 billion years old, dispite what the bible might suggest. -source 2 --146.244.138.72 19:27, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Feel free to delete whatever you want. This is all pointless anyway. The reason I am even here is because I am trying to find "somewhat" accurate figures for the surface area of the earth. I am horrified to report that even such an "easy" number to calculate (given scientific capabilities) differs by over 1% in most sources, (eh, what's a measly million square kilometers, anyway?). Our own, vaunted article (which IS truly wonderful, by the way), fails to even agree internally with itself, one place advocating a different surface area than another place. If we can't even agree on lies consistently ("Lies, Damned Lies, & Statistics..."), then how are we EVER to figure out the truth? Aspie 23:52, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

I assume our anon. is concerned that I twice removed the following: (according to some theories) (hover over that and see where it really leads) which I saw as a deceptive edit, hiding origin beliefs link behind according to some theories is sneaky editing. It has nothing to do with origin beliefs - it is about well founded scientific evidence and continuing testing. Vsmith 15:53, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I took it as a clear effort to slip in some creationist doubt as to the facts presented in the article. (I also reverted it once, but someone else beat me to it.)
Atlant 16:26, 19 August 2005 (UTC)


I totally agree, this article is NOT neutral neither is it factual. Science has not proven that the earth is old at all, to the contrary it has shown that it cannot be older than 6,000 years.
Science has not proven that the earth moves either (if anyone thinks that it has you might try collecting that $15,000 reward!)
NarrowPathPilgrim 08:36, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Sparing others the trouble of mistaking the above comment for dripping sarcasm—it's not, I'm afraid. Femto 13:36, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
You obviously don't understand relativity or occam's razor.--146.244.138.72 19:38, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Yep, science has long since given up on special reference frames. It developed a consistent set of laws that hold true for any observer, and has proven that it is impossible to prove the Earth is 'moving'. Asking otherwise is claptrap and putting up an unattainable reward is malarkey. (how's that related to the age anyway?) Femto 20:49, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

question about *-spheres

In school, I was taught that there is pedosphere in addition to lithosphere, biosphere, atmosphere and hydrosphere. There is also article on cryosphere. I wonder, these words are not referenced here, are they still used? Samohyl Jan 11:19, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Neutrality, Part II

That the earth is round does go contrary to the beliefs of a few people. Now, they are a tiny minority, so I'm not asking that the article insert caveats. However, like someone mentioned above, this is about scientific knowledge of the aspects of the earth. As such, the warning I keep trying to assert is totally appropriate. I goes as follows -

This data in this article reflect the current scientific consensus on those aspects. For alternate, non-mainstream perspectives, see earth shape debate.

I don't think it's unreasonable at all to mention the scientific nature of this article before stating a bunch of things some people totally reject. NPOV, guys, NPOV. MrVoluntarist 00:03, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

From WP:NPOV: "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not (see Wikipedia:Flat earth problem)." The fact that the Earth is round is used by no less than Jimbo himself as the canonical example of a view that is opposed by so few a number of people that opponents do not even deserve mention in normal articles. Hence, the "earth shape debate" should not be mentioned here. Dragons flight 00:23, September 3, 2005 (UTC)
Where does he say that? (And please, don't provide a re-link of the Wikipedia:Flat earth problem. I read the link. He does not say in taht, or in the NPOV page that the flat earth is a prototypical example of something that should not be included.) Moreover, the note at the top does not say anything about a flat earth. It just mentions that the article is providing scientific facts. This is necessary, because even people that agree the earth is round have a hard time accepting, for example, the age of the earth. And there are a lot more than you think. Simply stating that this is a scientific article is not harmful at all, I don't see what the problem is. MrVoluntarist 01:13, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
The problem with a link to the Earth shape debate is that the latter is not a scientific argument. Most of the "arguments" listed there fall under the category of sophistry, ad hominem arguments and the like.
Urhixidur 00:48, 2005 September 3 (UTC)
Really? "The earth appears flat" is a sophistical and/or ad hominem argument? That no roundness-skeptic has been allowed to examine the moon rocks is a sophistical and/or ad hominem argument? That no one has walked around the earth or dug through it is a sophistical and/or ad hominem argument? Please, use proper terminology. MrVoluntarist 01:13, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Either a bogus attempt to sneak creationist concepts upfront again in the article - or - someone just wanting to justify the existence of a poorly written debate article earth shape debate which is just flat earth nonsense trying to pose as a real rather than phoney debate. Is MrVoluntarist the anon who added Neutrality part I? Vsmith 01:55, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm not that anonymous poster; I just read his/her comment. See here[7] and then scroll up and down to see me posting as 24.162... before posting under my current name. Now, I'm sorry if you don't like creationist views, but you need to keep in mind that Wikipedia is written from a neutral point of view, not a scientific point of view. As such, we need to provide links to alternate views. No one's asking that we insert "what round-earthers believe to be ..." everywhere. All I ask is that there be mention that this is a scientific article and include a link to a non-scientific article. And I don't get why you say it's poorly-written. It's short maybe, but it presents the facts very well, if I do say so myself. And there is a debate. That one side is regarded as very victorious does not deny that there has historically been a debate and people have used the arguments listed. MrVoluntarist 03:04, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Hmm...OK, glad you're not that anon. Now - it seems odd that you would create a page about this so-called debate and then attempt to link to it from this page in such a prominent way - without even bothering to create a link from the flat Earth page. That makes me even more skeptical of your motives. As for the poorly written, it seems someone quickly slapped a cleanup tag to it, and I haven't seen any effort on your part to comply. Vsmith 03:27, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I was going to put a link from Flat Earth, but since someone suggested it be merged, I figured it was going to eventually happen, so what's the point? I haven't made massive improvements during the eternal ~48 hours that passed since the notice was placed because I really don't see what standard the person who placed it was referring to. It's not poorly writtin per se, it's just short and without documentation, i.e., like the zillion other stubs that don't have the cleanup warning. In my opinion, it's more appropriate to say it's a stub than to say it's written to a low standard of quality. My reason for linking it from the Earth page is because, well, this article needs to have mentioned that this is all scientific data (and thus may conflict with religious views), so I figured I might as well put a link to an "alternate" perspective. Would there be a better non-mainstream article to link to? MrVoluntarist 03:45, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

The link doesn't belong and the new page either needs to reflect the fact that this is a historic debate which is now settled or go to VfD. There is no contemporary debate--arguments otherwise I wouldn't even call pseudoscience, but patent nonsense. I'm willing to leave it because it could become a placeholder for interesting points; Magellan's expedition finally proving the round Earth for example. Marskell 07:47, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Scratch that. Flat Earth has this covered. I think the link should go to VfD. Marskell 09:45, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
You mean the article should go VfD? Links don't get VfD'd. I think the points should just be merged into the Flat earth page. MrVoluntarist 16:29, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Okay, Marskell, I obviously don't believe in a flat earth, but Magellan's voyage most certainly did not prove the Earth is round. On the flat Earth model, you can travel the exact same path he did. So if you're going to use an example to show why the flat-earthers lost, you need to pick another one. MrVoluntarist 16:29, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I must say I'm not familiar with the "flat-earth model" and I don't really want to get into it. The principle feature of pseudoscience is that it can't be falsified so debates are generally useless—i.e., I'm sure "the model" will have an answer for everything. How about the Global Flyer? The international space station? A hoax I suppose. Marskell 16:48, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Pseudoscience is not excluded from Wikipedia. Not that "having an answer for everything" makes it pseudoscience anyway, or else science is pseudoscientific. For future reference, by the way, the main flat earth model is with the northpole at center and Antarctica forming the edge of the disc. Kind of like the United Nations flag. MrVoluntarist 22:30, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Reverted move

I just reverted an undiscussed move of the article to Earth (planet). The move was made by User:Acid. I don't recall any discussion of such a proposed move. Vsmith 01:08, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Descriptions of Earth in Science Fiction

There's already a Earth in fiction article. I say move this section there. --kop 01:01, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Reverting NPOV?

Why do you people keep reverting my attempts to reveal that the information in the article is based on scientific study, rather than the Truth? MrVoluntarist 03:22, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Is that a serious question? Most articles in Wikipedia are similar (except of course the few that claim to be the Truth), and it would be extremely tedious to add "scientists believe" at the beginning of every single statement. Better to put marginal or crackpot ideas like the flat Earth or hollow Earth in marginal locations, such as at the end of the article. kwami 03:44, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm not asking that it be inserted at the beginning of every sentence. In fact, I tried to put a one-time notice at the top that this article is about scientific knowledge about the earth, but it got reverted. So I take it you'd be okay with a flat-earth link at the bottom? Because everyone else has objected even to this. MrVoluntarist 04:15, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I didn't read the previous discussion until after I posted that answer. I personally think it's just as appropriate to mention the flat and hollow earth ideas as it is to mention the Earth in fiction. After all, a flat earth on the back of a turtle is a more enduring idea than our ephemeral sci-fi novels. (Okay, the Earth in Fiction section has been split off to its own article, but there are such sections in the articles for the other planets.) The mythology section might be expanded to include such things. It does, however, already link to the flat earch article. If I were to expand it, I would describe the conception of the earth in various religious/mythological traditions, rather than just the "modern" flat earth idea. It would be especially interesting if any of these agreed with what we now know, but that could invite further edit wars: a common argument for the veracity of the Koran, for example, is that it is heliocentric, when in fact it appears to be just as geocentric as the Jewish and Christian bibles. Maybe it would be better to have a separate "Conceptions of the Earth in mythology" article? kwami 04:39, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Moving controversy into a separate article is not going to get rid of the controversey. I'd like to see some expansion, unless there's already another article that covers the topic. A 20,000 foot overview of the history of the notion/perception of the world. If it gets too big then it can be moved. --kop 07:22, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Flat earthism is already there in the Descriptions of Earth section. Bogus attempts to insert the nonsense more prominently are simple trollisms. Truth trolls have been there and done that already. Enough is enough. Vsmith 04:59, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Putting the mention of "flat earth" right in with mythology is not good enough. All I want is that somewhere upfront it be mentioned that the article is about scientific knowledge. Is that too much to ask? MrVoluntarist 20:54, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

At the risk of re-opening a can of worms, yes it is too much to ask. Wikipedia, like any resource of its sort, assumes the fundamental validaty of scientific consensus ahead of mythology or superstition (and thus does not demand a qualifier before any serious point of scientific import). Not that scientific debates or disagreements are not noted, but rather an idea regarding which the scientific method (read it carefully if you haven't) has been adhered to and for which scientific consensus is unanimous will be presented as "the Truth." The Earth is round. It is round and that is "the Truth." It is round according to any intuitive test or any serious epistemological test you want to apply. We don't need to qualify every statement in this article to note that. Marskell 22:56, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Wrong. First of all, I never asked that every statement in this article be qualified. All I've asked is that somewhere at the top it be mentioned that this article is about the scientific data. Second, Wikipedia is not written from a scientific point of view, but from a neutral point of view (read it carefully if you haven't, which obviously seems to be the case). Third, belief in a flat earth does not count as mythology or superstition. Now that I have specifically replied directly to you regarding my actual position, you no longer have a convenient excuse for attributing to me positions that I do not hold. You are now (hopefully) capable of providing a justification why the article should nowhere mention that the information presented here is based on the scientific consensus. MrVoluntarist 00:21, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I did not say it was written from a scientific point of view but that it assumes "the fundamental validity of scientific consensus" (there is a difference between the statements). Indeed, I have read NPOV and sir I would point you to the most important qualifier on the page, Undue Weight:

"If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not (see Wikipedia:Flat earth problem)."

The ancillary article, Flat Earth, already exists; no qualifier is needed here. Marskell 09:17, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Please point me to the place in Wikipedia policy where it says Wikipedia articles "assume the fundamental validty of scientific consensus". I would need to see the context because it's actually a rather vacuous statement. Is it saying that in Wikipedia, if scientists agree on something, no contrary view should be revealed? Surely not. Furthermore, it appears you are (surprise, surprise) attributing a position to me I don't hold. I am not saying that the flat earth position should also be asserted here, merely that somewhere the article should mention that the data are based on scientific consensus. This isn't a flat earth issue: it's also because of the Christian view that holds the earth is not 4.57 bajillion years old.
Now that I have specifically replied directly to you regarding my actual position, you no longer have a convenient excuse for attributing to me positions that I do not hold. You are now (hopefully) capable of providing a justification why the article should nowhere mention that the information presented here is based on the scientific consensus. MrVoluntarist 13:37, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

MrVoluntarist, we could preface every article (or even every statement) that focuses on scientific knowledge by writing "scientists believe", and it would be accurate (though often incomplete since many non-scientists believe the same thing). However, in most cases, including this one, it would also be entirely redundant. Can you imagine anyone (including young / flat Earthers) who would open up an encyclopedia article and expect it to focus on any perspective of Earth's history and shape other than the scientific one? After all, the vast majority of educated people, including many Christians, believe the Earth is old and round. Even those who hold the alternative viewpoints you are fond of defending must surely know they are in the minority and not expect to get much time in an encyclopedia article on the subject of Earth, right? I don't see any reason to add clauses like "scientists believe" unless there is some evidence that not having them is going to confuse people as to what the article is talking about. In this case, I can't imagine anyone reading this article would not realize it is focusing on the scientific perspective (as everyone ought to expect it to). Dragons flight 14:10, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

If people expect scientific opinions out of existing encyclopedias, it is because existing encyclopedias are written, and known to be written, from a scientific point of view. Wikipedia has decided to be different and instead be written from a neutral point of view. Thus, it must be held to a different standard. However, I believe I have thought of a way to satisfy both our wishes while adhering to Wikipedia standards. How about if at the bottom, we list "science" as a category to which this article belongs? Such a categorization should have probably been there in the first place. I think that change would be eminently fair. MrVoluntarist 23:44, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

While do I respect this is an attempt at a compromise, understand how the categories work: this article is already a "grand-daughter" of the Science cat. As it stands:

  • Science --> Earth Sciences --> Earth (as primary article in sub-cat).

It doesn't need to be re-classified. It's fine. Really.

"Held to a different standard?" Sure—it's absolutely more discursive and more in-depth than similar sources and should be held to that standard. But it almost seems you're suggesting that Wiki should buck what contemporary epistemological understanding is. You are truly misunderstanding NPOV—it does mean the door is open to every hypothetical criticism. I could start an article about a triangular Earth, swear by it, and try to get it included—it wouldn't and shouldn't be included. It, just like a Flat Earth, has no professional or public acceptance that is even marginally notable. And this is where I'm thumping my head with you. You want a guideline to prove that Wiki accepts the validity of scientific consensus? It's like asking for a guideline showing English Wiki must be written in English. Of course this article is written from a scientific perspective. Of course we don't need to state that. Marskell 00:08, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not supposed to endorse any specific epistemological standard (not that the one you desire to impose on all Wikipedia readers would lead straight to a round earth anyway). You are not allowed to insert triangular earth opinions because that would be original research: there is no independent account of triangular earth proponents (though, as I've tried to emphasize, there is a history of doubt on the roundness of the earth). Also, I don't see why it's at all obvious that Wikipedia accepts science as a standard for inclusion. If that were the case, we would have to litter all the religion articles with "This contradicts modern science." And, I suspect there is a guideline insisting that articles be writting in the Wikipedia's language.
Now, about my compromise: how about we expand the full hierarchy for categories for this article? At the bottom have "Science: Earth Sciences: Earth". I'm pretty sure I've seen that done in other articles, and if not, that's no argument against including it in one for clarity. MrVoluntarist 03:06, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Seeing no objections, I will make the change. MrVoluntarist 10:44, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry no one responded. Please look at the science category: the articles in there are sciences themselves or very general scientific concepts such as "mechanism" or "physical system." If we put Earth in there, we have to put Venus and Mars in, Ocean and Continent, and just about half of wiki. If you work backward from the Earth category you will arrive at Science—that is sufficient. Note, Earth science is there. Marskell 11:12, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Show me how to trace from earth back to science. And why does mentioning "science" in the categories at the bottom of the article imply "earth" has to be on any other page? Plus, even if it were out of the ordinary to do so, it's clearly justified on such a controversial topic. MrVoluntarist 12:12, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

1. Science --> Earth Sciences --> Earth (as primary article in sub-cat). I mentioned this above.

I know you mentioned it above. You didn't explain there how to trace back, which is what I was asking. And you didn't do it here either. (Thanks for that.) Luckily, I figured it out. 24.243.190.239 13:30, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

2. Placing Science in the categories does not imply Earth has to be on any other page but rather that other pages should also be categorized in Science. Again, the articles in Science are sciences themselves or very general scientific concepts not specific objects or subjects.

Great, then the problem you alluded to with placing "science" at the bottom doesn't exist. Moving on. 24.243.190.239 13:30, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

3. This isn't a controversial topic. Marskell 12:29, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it is. It contradicts most religions and every fundamentalist religion. Since Wikipedia is NPOV rather than SPOV, we have to label science as science where its conclusions are controversial. By the way, I made your numbering explicit rather than using Wikipedia code so I could reply at each point without messing up the numbering. 24.243.190.239 13:30, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

The above is from me. It logged me out for some reason in the middle of posting. MrVoluntarist 13:32, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

  1. I assumed you know how to click on links.
  2. You misunderstand the problem I asserted and are now side-stepping it: we allow this, we set a precedent for thousands of others in science and abrogate the purpose of sub-cats.
  3. None of the conclusions are controversial—the shape certainly isn't. Again, "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia." If there is some historical opinion that was once widely held or some pseudoscience opinion still widely held that isn't mentioned, a line or two in Descriptions at the bottom might accomodate it. Marskell 14:02, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
1. I assumed you knew how to answer a question.
2. No, I understand the problem just fine and I'm saying it's not a problem at all. We don't have to put earth or any of the others on the subcategory or category page, as you just realized. Also, I'm only asking that we do it on controversial issues so as to make sure people understand it's a scientific article. There's no slippery slope.
3. I told you this isn't just about the shape. It's about the age too. If you think it's okay to assert controversial scientific claims as fact, then you have to go through all of the religion articles and insert "This contradicts modern science" every other sentence. MrVoluntarist 14:25, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

"We don't have to put earth or any of the others on the subcategory or category page, as you just realized." Then what the hell are we debating? If you add the category at the bottom it automatically appears on the category page.

Further, I don't enjoy having my good faith sarcastically questioned ("You didn't explain there how to trace back, which is what I was asking. And you didn't do it here either. (Thanks for that.)", "I assumed you knew how to answer a question.")

Conversation over on this end. Add as you please and I will revert where I feel necessary. Marskell 14:37, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Of those two quotes from me, the second was exactly parallel to one you made, and the first was clearly not a questioning of your good faith. You have been far more sarcastic and rude to me than I have ever been to you. I guess you can dish it out, but you can't take it, right? One rule for you, one rule for me. I think I get it now.
Regarding whether putting the category notice on the bottom of the page makes it appear on the subcategory page, I thought you were referring to the customized part of the science category page, where that point wouldn't apply. But even if it appears in a list, my point still holds: as a controversial topic that can confuse a reader what kind of article this is, it's eminently fair to put it on the list. Hell, if "Rebecca J. Nelson" can go on the science list, I think Earth can go there too. MrVoluntarist 14:46, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

If either of you feel the need to continue in this vein, please do so on your user talk pages. Your debate is focusing more on each other's debating style than on the content of the Earth page. --P3d0 21:25, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

P3d0, do you have a justification why an article with controversial information should not be labeled as science? MrVoluntarist 21:50, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Anybody who believes the Earth is flat, or even believes that it is 6000 years old, is quite aware that they hold a minority opinion. They're hardly likely to be "confused" by not having a label warning them that this article claims the world is round, or old. Yes, MrVoluntarist, if you wish to continue your campaign to change the format of Wikipedia, please do it on your talk pages. kwami 00:26, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia is NPOV, not SPOV, so we have to make concessions to extremely significant minorities that hold alternate views. Putting "science" at the bottom is a pretty small thing to ask, all things considered. Or we could do it your way and fill every religion article with "science" that "corrects" it. MrVoluntarist 00:36, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
To clear up the category thing (Wikipedia guidelines stipulate redundant categorisations must be expunged from articles), here's the method: Click on the "Earth" that shows up at the very bottom of the page, right off of "Categories:". This'll take you to the Category:Earth page. At its bottom, you'll see it categorised in turn as "Planets of the Solar System" and "Earth sciences". Click on the latter. You'll see that the Earth sciences category is itself categorised under "Academic disciplines" and "Science". QED. (I've had to make a similar demonstration in the Talk:Astrology page)
Urhixidur 17:47, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

This debate is essentially about what can be stated unqualifiedly as fact. The consensus definition of fact is "something that can be demonstrated to be true", in other words, "something based on empirical evidence". I think that most dissenters would acknowledge that their views are not by this definition "fact", that is, they would not claim that their views are "built on empirical evidence". Frankly, the definition of fact is very much linked with the definition of science, as the goal of science is the establishment of fact. Thus, statements about which there is no fact-based debate, such as the roundness of the earth, can be stated as fact. Non-fact-based dissenting views can be stated as dissenting views, preferably in their own articles to avoid confusing the fact-seeking encyclopedia user. The alternative, as far as I can figure, is to not state anything at all as fact, which would make Wikipedia a useless hellish cauldron of boiling fat. As one who believes that Wikipedia is meant to be an encyclopedia, this isn't a very attractive prospect. If anyone can think of a different way to determine what can be stated as fact, go right on ahead. Kai 07:41, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Terametres?

Nobody uses terameters; why the hell are we? --Robert Merkel 05:49, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Because we can? No, seriously, it is just to allow orbital circumferences to be compared (see the various other planetary infoboxes, such as Mercury (planet)), using a common yardstick. The explanation of what a terametre is is just a click away, after all.
Urhixidur 17:51, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Why not, we use yottagrams Wow - what a yotta nonsense :-) The mass of the Earth is approximately 5,980 yottagrams.
On a related? note, the absurd values for surface area, etc. in the template do need attention: Surface area at 510,065,284.702 km²! Twelve significant figures - implies we know to within +or- one meter! Absurd (as pointed out by newly logged in User:Aspie above - hidden somewhere up there). Should probably be 5.1007 x 109 or some such. Let's see - a 200 acre (convert to sq. km if you like) farm here in the Ozarks has a lot more than 200 acres of surface area (think hills & valleys - some of that is vertical). Anyway the point is most of those numbers in the infobox are rather absurd, by contrast the volume and mass values are much more reasonable at only five significant figures. Vsmith 00:45, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

New image

1. Inner core (solid) 2. Outer core (liquid) 3. Mantle 4. Asthenosphere 5. Lithosphere (upper mantle) 6. Lithosphere (crust) 7. Lower atmosphere (troposphere, stratosphere, mesosphere) 8. Thermosphere
1. Inner core (solid) 2. Outer core (liquid) 3. Mantle 4. Asthenosphere 5. Lithosphere (upper mantle) 6. Lithosphere (crust) 7. Lower atmosphere (troposphere, stratosphere, mesosphere) 8. Thermosphere

Just made this. It's sort of better than the current cutaway image since it's (at least roughly) to scale, and shows a few more features. What do you think? - Fredrik | talk 20:06, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, it much better looking than the original one. And it doesn't have the unneccessary 3-d effects that mar many illustrations.
But I think the atmosphere is way too thick in the slice image at the center. It is true that thermosphere reaches at very high altitudes, but on the other hand it is extremely thin. It is now way too pronounced and makes the atmosphere look much thicker than it is in reality. Maybe thermosphere looks better with much darker blue. Only troposphere and stratosphere with light blue.
Also, you should include continental and oceanic crust on the image at right. I don't think the boundaries are really that rough, either.
I'd like to see things like convective cells and plumes on the middle image and atmospheric phenomena on the image at right, but they probably make the image too crowded and belong to more specific illustrations.
Otherwise, I really like the image. It has nice colors and is illustrative. I hope this helps.--Jyril 23:22, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback! I have tweaked it to address most of your concerns, and uploaded a new version. Please let me know if I got the changes right, and if there's anything else that should be modified. If there are no major issues, adding it to the article seems like a good idea. Fredrik | talk 23:28, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
It looks much better now.--Jyril 08:15, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

How about splitting the infobox?

The planet infobox is too large; it interferes with the page layout and crams lots of unrelated data into one small space. It would be best if it was only about as tall as the table of contents. How about moving the orbit data to the section on "Earth in the Solar System", and the atmospheric data to the "Atmosphere" section? The article is already a bit inconsistent; for example, the table on the Earth's composition is inlined but the list of atmospheric constituents is in the infobox. I think it would make most sense to put only the most important and general data in the table at the top, and move the rest to sections (where the information can also be better referred to from the text). Of course, this change would cause inconsistency with the other planet artices, but that's not necessarily a problem. For one thing, the article's focus should be slightly different since Earth is not primarily the target of astronomers. Fredrik | talk 23:52, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Agreed, infobox is way too large. If I could decide, I'd keep only the most important values on the infobox and move everything else to Earth fact sheet or whatever, which could include much more details than the infobox since its size wouldn't be limited. Same goes for other planets.
In my less humble opinion, this article should about Earth the planet only. There is already topic specific articles for Earth's atmosphere, geology and so on. I'd like to put all demographic and cultural stuff to the world article. There are humans only on one planet, after all.--Jyril 08:15, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
I have to admit that I found the infobox useful - I was able to find some stats very quickly because I assumed they'd be in there. As long as the box renders reasonably (and it did for me), then I like it.

Rewrite

Since huge parts of this article needs to be improved, I've put up talk:Earth/rewrite so people can do radical editing without worrying about breaking anything. This is based on a rewrite attempt I started a few months ago but never finished; some parts that were taken out are missing and others may need to be updated. Fredrik | talk 11:57, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Adjective

The adjective for Earth is "Earthling." Terrestrial is just our type of planet. — Hurricane Devon (Talk) 22:55, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Earthling means an inhabitant of Earth. You and me are both Earthlings.--Jyril 19:03, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Ling means child. We should be Terrians or something, I think. Flameviper12 13:08, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Age of the Earth

User:JQF wrote: It should be noted, however, that alternative theories regarding the date of formation do exist.

Before we start an edit war, could somebody describe the alternative scientific theories of Earth's age since I'm not aware of any.--Jyril 15:28, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Since the age of the earth cannot be reasonably agreed upon, it admits and must presuppose the existence of a disagreement of terms. Therefore I suggest, wherefore one cannot speak with certainty, one should be silent. -- [[User_talk::66.168.222.44]]

Ah, but the age can be reasonably agreed upon. Those who argue for something significantly shorter than 4 thousand million years base their argument on something other than reason. -- Kbh3rd 17:50, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I base my belief in God solely on reason, I am a deist thank you, not one of these brainless Christians. Read the "Summa Theologica" Proofs for the Existence of God.

read a physics book --146.244.138.72 19:13, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Structure of the Earth

The following comment to editors was left in the article; I used HTML commenting it to hide it from non-editors. This kind of self-referential comment should not be visible in the main article. FreplySpang (talk) 18:18, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

< This section has been moved to the article Structure of the Earth. A new 30-line summary section must be written from this main article to this "Physical characteristics" section. Help is welcome. >

Infobox overwhelming article

On Firefox 1.0.6 (MacOS 10.4.2) the infobox is flooding the article, appearing before just about everything... what's going on here? Alphax τεχ 01:16, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, looks like it's fixed now... Alphax τεχ 10:25, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Earth's core

Earth's core redirects to here, but there is virtually no information on Earth's core. Is this information anywhere else in Wikipedia? -Volfy 09:22, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Nevermind, fixed Earth's core redirection to go to Structure of the Earth. -Volfy 09:26, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Spheriod vs. Ellipsoid

(Moved to bottom of discussion page) 17:19, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

The Earth's shape is that of an oblate ellipsoid, with an average diameter of approximately 12,742 km.

I'm pretty sure the Earth is an oblate spheroid and not an oblate ellipsoid like the article says. Take a look at this.

Posted by User: 65.93.206.205
Moved to bottom of page. Vsmith 22:56, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Earth (with a capital "E") is a formal noun in English... and it doesn't need an article (meaning, "the") preceding it. I have always been intrigued as to when we started calling this planet "Earth" and not "the earth." Interesting to note is that in other forms of our planet's name, we don't use "the" as in "Terra." You never see "the terra". Ditto for the names of the other planets in our solar system... (Mars, never referred to as "the mars".)

Yes, this is my pet peeve, too! I think the problem is (E/e)arth is used three different ways:
  • Earth--the specific planet (like "Mars");
  • the earth--generalizing Earth as a planet (like generalizing a planet's satellites as "moons": Our moon is named Luna, so we look up and point at either "Luna" or "the moon" (or, for emphasis, "The Moon"), not "the Luna" or "moon"), hence, the proper expression should be "the planet Earth";
  • (the) earth--ground/soil ("we dug up five tons of earth");
To answer the original question, a spheroid is an "ellipsoid of revolution", so all spheroids are ellipsoids, but not all ellipsoids are spheroids. To further complicate things, a spheroid can be subcatagorized, based on the degree of ellipticity. See: (Pollen) shape classes. ~Kaimbridge~ 17:19, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Population

Should Earth's population be added in the infobox? --Revolución (talk) 23:46, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Orbital inclination

In the info box for this article it states that the orbital inclination of the earth is 0.00005° . Isnt the correct value for this is exactly 0° as the inclination of the Earths orbit is what the orbital inclinations of the other planets are measured relative to. Does anyone else know enough about this to be sure? --Timmywimmy 18:26, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

No History section?

History of the Earth would be a much needed addition. --Revolución (talk) 01:35, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Land Use: Arable land?

I checked several teacher aids on google, most of which gave arable land as 1/32 of the earth's surface (e.g., 1/8th of land). Anyone know where the 10% comes from?

Question 2: Anyone know if all the "land use" refer *only* to land?

Learning to see your own POV/biases

The section I deleted said "Large areas are subject to overpopulation, industrial disasters such as pollution of the air and water, acid rain and toxic substances, loss of vegetation (overgrazing, deforestation, desertification), loss of wildlife, species extinction, soil degradation, soil depletion, erosion, and introduction of invasive species." It's asserting all of this as fact, when all of it is heavily disputed. If the claim is only that these things are possible, it's undue emphasis, a POV violation. Whoever put this in was trying to slip in a plug for an environmentalist, scaremongering POV. For example, the entire concept of "overpopulation" is heavily contested, especially by economists. Whether or not overpopulation is the cause of any current ill is still debated, and it's talking like the debate has been settled. The assertions of threats in other areas is the POV of some environmentalists, disputed by high-profile environmentalists like, I don't know, Bjørn Lomborg and Patrick Moore. There's no reason to cite the possibilities of all these things unless you want to list every possible thing that could go wrong, and at that point, it's unclear how that's relevant to someone who wants to learn about "the earth". What you first need to learn is that these claims are a POV, and many people actually dispute them. Wikipedia is not a place to promote environmentalism. See Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. MrVoluntarist 04:14, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

There is no dispute as to whether introduction of invasive species, erosion, soil depletion, degradation, extinction, wildlife and habitat loss, desertification, deforestation, overgrazing, and manmade pollution are major concerns facing the Earth at this point. The line on overpopulation could be contested as POV, but I reccommend you start by finding a more authoritative source than "economists". How is their opinion on ecological mnatters relevant? - Randwicked 04:29, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Our flat earth proponent seems to feel the following paragraphs are POV and is insisting on their removal:
Large areas are subject to overpopulation, industrial disasters such as pollution of the air and water, acid rain and toxic substances, loss of vegetation (overgrazing, deforestation, desertification), loss of wildlife, species extinction, soil degradation, soil depletion, erosion, and introduction of invasive species.
Long-term climate alteration due to enhancement of the greenhouse effect by human industrial carbon dioxide emissions is an increasing concern, the focus of intense study and debate.
Our local flat earth proponent seems to feel these statements are heaven forbid pro-environmentalism. However, the hazards listed above are real and backed by substantial scientific evidence. Pointing out real hazards should be acceptable to anyone living in the modern world :-) Vsmith 04:40, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Whoa, flat-earther? Fo' real? - Randwicked 04:46, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
See the Neutrality, Part II and Reverting NPOV? sections above - you gotta have a sense of humor :-) Vsmith 04:53, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

VSmith, I can't but assume you're trying to personally insult me, but I'll hold off for a clarification. I never supported the flat earth position, and you know it. And "Randwicked" -- I didn't cite "economists" alone, I cited two prominent environmentalists. Ever heard of The Skeptical Environmentalist? Why don't we talk about what that portion is actually trying to say? Is it saying that overgrazing, deforestation, desertification, etc. are all possible? Okay, then fine, but lots of other things are possible -- genocide, war, famine, communism, etc. The list could go on for days, and you'd probably delete any chance to insert such balance. So what is it saying? Is it saying that all those things are likely? If so, then it is stating something as fact when there definitely is no consensus. The best science tells us that less than 1% of species will go extinct over the next 100 years. If you want to re-iterate the 50,000 species a year claim, you'll need to edit the biodiversity and extinction articles first, where such claims are roundly rejected. So no, you don't have science on your side for those claims. And insofar as those claims even have plausibility, they're definitely not worldwide problems (thus not meriting position in the "earth" article). There's just as much forest as there was in North America as there was 100 years ago. Would you care to give a mainstream source for any of those claims? Learning you have a bias is the first step toward being a productive Wikipedia contributor. MrVoluntarist 05:01, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

"MrVoluntarist", overgrazing, deforestation and desertification are not just possibilities, they are occuring all over the world on a daily basis. Marginal Australian rangelands, the Amazon and the Aral Sea basin are just respective examples of the above. The para you are complaining about is not talking about possibilites, it is talking about current events. And what claims have I made about actual numbers for extinction? Are you confusing me for someone else making a different comment on an unrelated article? - Randwicked 07:21, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Obviously, they're not happening "all over the world", re my point about N. American forests. If you want to claim it's happening in specific places, then say so, and back it up with mainstream sources. But then, it just becomes a long diatribe that doesn't belong in an article about the earth. Regarding extinction claims, what numbers do you claim for extinction to justify the claims in the article? Does 0.7% over the next 100 years constitute a crisis?MrVoluntarist 14:25, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
The article doesn't say that these events are happening "all over the world". However, they are common, serious and undebatable enough that they have a rightful place in a section entitled "Natural and environmental hazards" within the larger section "Environment and Ecosystem" of an article on Earth. And what number of extinctions do YOU feel constitute a crisis? - Randwicked 14:53, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
If they're not happening "all over the world", they don't quite belong in an article about the earth, now, do they? And they're certainly not "undebatable". They are debated -- heavily. What extinction constitutes a crisis? Irrelevant. Give the hard numbers and let the reader decide. You fail to understand that Wikipedia is not here to promote issues of concern to you. If it's relevant and factual, add it. Otherwise, don't look for opportunities to insert your bias. MrVoluntarist 15:39, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes they do, these things are happening in places all over the world and are of local, regional, national and global import. And as you are disputing this section as POV, can you point to some of this debate and address which of the mentioned issues you have trouble with? You cite Lomborg. I am interested for example in what he has said about land degradation?
Also, please don't go telling me How It Is. It's impolite. - Randwicked 16:22, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Don't tell you How It Is??? Excuse me? You're asserting all kinds of things without basis, and then calling me impolite for stating known facts? Well, let no one say you don't have ba guts. I'm sure you feel that your pet environmental issues are things everyone should be concerned about, but that doesn't make it so. And don't ask me for evidence -- you're the one advocating controversial statements be added as fact. You need to cite your sources, if there even are any. If you can't understand how "everything's going to hell" might be POV and maybe original research, I don't know what to tell you. MrVoluntarist 17:21, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Dear oh dear, looks like I'll have to clarify. Please don't go telling me that I fail to understand what Wikipedia is here for, or that I am just looking for opportunities to insert my bias. I'm not advocating controversial statements be added, I'm calling for the continued inclusion of information on human impacts, a segment which if you will look was not added by me, but has been present largely unchanged since the creation of this article over four years ago. To me, that is a devastating argument for consensus for continued inclusion. If you want to fight such a precedent I suggest you start by citing some credible source to your claim that the given human impacts on the Earth are seriously debated or are POV. The burden rests on you, friend. - Randwicked 17:36, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Wow, this is interesting. Because no one bothered to delete something for four years, it must be true. Can't be that the Wikipedia editors of the earth article have a bias in favor of believing it's true... naw, can't be that at all. I'd be glad to show sources, but not because any "burden" rests on me. I shouldn't have to cite my own sources every time some do-gooder that stumbled upon Wikipedia wants to use it to promote issues he's concerned about, but, just because I like watching people squirm, I will. But before I do so, I have to ask: is the claim that "everything's going downhill" what you regard as a NPOV statement? Is the whole concept of overpopulation undisputed? MrVoluntarist 18:11, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Where does it say "everything's going downhill"? Hint: IT DOESN'T. That's the third or fourth time you've raised objections to things that aren't even in the article. Should I conclude you are trolling? Even if you're not you're not making any viable suggestions or indicating you're interested in providing any. If you want to call this section POV please provide evidence of some major debate over any of the issues. Also, please see my prior comments on overpopulation (and read the article again before commenting. Please). - Randwicked 00:13, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
It alleges, without citation (but with proponents of the passage refusing to reference even one work) that all of those things are global problems. That's extremely debatable. The article on The Skeptical Environmentalist shows why. And you, really, really have quite some nerve to claim I'm trolling. You're trying to hijack Wikipedia to promote environmental issues you like, and if I object and suggest an NPOV passage, I'm "trolling". Un. Believable. VSmith has already agreed with me that at the very least, overpopulation is debatable. Ergo, it should not be stated as fact. But then, if we suggest there's debate about it, it's harder to whip people into fervor and support policies you like, isn't it? Ay, there's the rub. MrVoluntarist 20:52, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
If the current rate of deforestation continues, the world's rain forests will vanish within 100 years-causing unknown effects on global climate and eliminating the majority of plant and animal species on the planet. - NASA Earth Observatory Tropical Deforestation Fact Sheet.
Desertification does not refer to the expansion of existing deserts. It occurs because dryland ecosystems, which cover over one third of the world‘s land area, are extremely vulnerable to over-exploitation and inappropriate land use. Poverty, political instability, deforestation, overgrazing and bad irrigation practices can all undermine the productivity of the land. Over 250 million people are directly affected by desertification, and about one billion people in over one hundred countries are at risk. These people include many of the world‘s poorest, most marginalized and politically weak citizens. - United Nations Convention to Combat Desertification (PDF)
In 1996 it was revealed that one in eight birds (12%) and one in four mammals (23%) were threatened with extinction (falling into the Critically Endangered, Endangered or Vulnerable categories). This infamous line-up has now been joined by one in three amphibians (32%) and almost half (42%) of turtles and tortoises. With amphibians relying on freshwater, their catastrophic decline is a warning about the state of the planet’s water resources. Even though the situation in freshwater habitats is less well known than for terrestrial, early signs show it is equally serious. More than half (53%) of Madagascar’s freshwater fish are threatened with extinction. The vast ocean depths are providing little refuge to many marine species which are being over-exploited to the point of extinction. Nearly one in five (18%) of assessed sharks and rays are threatened. Many plants have also been assessed, but only conifers and cycads have been completely evaluated with 25% and 52% threatened respectively. [...] “Although 15,589 species are known to be threatened with extinction, this greatly underestimates the true number as only a fraction of known species have been assessed. There is still much to be discovered about key species-rich habitats, such as tropical forests, marine and freshwater systems or particular groups, such as invertebrates, plants and fungi, which make up the majority of biodiversity,” says Craig Hilton-Taylor, IUCN’s Red List Programme Officer. - World Conservation Union 2004 Red List press release
"You're trying to hijack Wikipedia to promote environmental issues you like, and if I object and suggest an NPOV passage"
Dude, if you want to suggest an NPOV passage, I suggest you start suggesting one instead of just raging against what you think my motives are.
"VSmith has already agreed with me that at the very least, overpopulation is debatable."
That was me. Please reread the talk page as well so you understand what exactly is being argued. - Randwicked 06:03, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Aw - no insult intended, just an attempt at humor re your previous stand in the sections above. As for Lomborg: he is maybe a statistician who wrote a tome about stuff beyond his expertise, hardly qualifies as a prominent environmentalist. No one is claiming the 50,000 bit - why would you think that? - reading stuff that isn't there? Is that your reason for deleting? And yeah we all have biases - kinda like a result of our life experiences. I know mine - do you know yours? Cheers Vsmith 05:30, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

He's just some dude who wrote a tome? He's not a "prominent environmentalist"? What are you disputing there? That's he's prominent or that he's an environmentalist? I can't see anyone making a case for either with a straight face. The book had ~2000 citations that documented every claim, any one of which I could cite to dispute the blatant assertions in the article. And re:50,000 species -- the sentence is claiming that loss of species is a problem. The figure is 0.7% over the next 100 years. If you want to cite that specific figure and let the reader decide for him/herself if that's a problem, go ahead, but I doubt you want to, as when people learn the facts they tend to start to see through the smokescreen. I deleted that sentence because it doesn't belong. A random sentence in the earth article about some problems we (debatably) face belongs, at best, in the human article. And more importantly, the claims aren't even true -- not to the same standard expected on the rest of Wikipedia. I can give you citation after citation mined from TSE if you want. It's obviously an attempt by someone to get a plug in for their pet causes and hope people won't delete it. And I'd love to leave it in and add balance, but like I said, it's largely irrelevant. Even if I balance it, it would be so bulky with so many caveats, people would wonder why it's even in there. Sure we should prefer improvement to deletion, but I don't see an alternative.
And contrary to the intellectually honest "Randwicked" I didn't remove the second sentence. I change it from saying "humans cause global warming and that's a problem" to "global warming and the extent to which it's caused by humans is debate" ... and of course, at that point, you begin to wonder what it's doing in the article, but that's never stopped you. MrVoluntarist 14:25, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
What one must remember is that stating that something is "bad for the earth" or "a problem for the earth" is making a value judgement, that the earth is somehow "better off" without these things. This can stem from two possible standpoints, as near as I can reckon: one, that the 'ideal earth' is one without any sort of human impact; and two, that the value of the earth is measured by its ability to sustain life. I personally tend to agree with the latter of those two, but it is POV nonetheless. So don't say "bad for the earth" or "a problem for the earth"; say "could harm the earth's ability to sustain life". Remember, on Venus it rains sulfuric acid -- is this a bad thing? No!Kai 06:51, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Kai Miller, well done! Excellent argument, and it seemed to stop this debate in its tracks. Is there an award that be be offered, like a Barnstar award, but an award for managing to put forward a good argument that diffuses debate? If not, I think one should be created for this purpose! :) --User:Rebroad 13:58, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Introduce a section on the fate of Earth?

Should a section on the fate of Earth be added? It is widely theorized that the Earth will either be consumed by the Sun or turned into a Venus or Mercury environment as the Sun expands into a red giant in a few billion years. Then, once the Sun releases it's outer layers as a planetary nebula, it may very well destroy Earth or at least severely damage it. --tomf688{talk} 16:45, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Definetely! Actually, that's why I dropped by the article in the first place and I must say I was a bit disappointed when it didn't mention 'the end' at all. If I can remember my physics classes properly, the sun is approx halfway in its lifetime and will in some five billion years become a red giant, engulfing the earth.. I guess the question will be whether the article should discuss the probability of meteoroids hitting the earth, killing all life, stopping photosynthesis and the like. Superdix 00:03, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I took physics, chemistry, and 2 biologies, and they never said anything about that. Maybe because they were in high school. Flameviper12 13:06, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Why are the north and south pole so cold?

Can anyone answer this? I've checked the articles on both poles and didn't see the answer if it was there. Initially I suspected that the colder areas at the poles were caused by less intense sun light in those regions. Is that what causes those areas to be so cold?

That's it. Sunlight strikes the poles at a much lower angle, so the same energy is spread over a wider area than at the equator. - Redwicked 23:09, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
No, it's because of capitalist exploitation. And because we didn't sign Kyoto. Right? Isn't that how it goes? MrVoluntarist 17:11, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Now you're catching on. There's hope for you yet, comrade! - Redwicked

I think this is a funny statement

and the only planetary body that modern science confirms as harboring life.

so sceince has to confirm that there is life on earth. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.245.2.222 (talk • contribs) .

Trivial though it is on Earth, the point of the sentence is, science has not confirmed life anywhere else. The really funny thing is, science indeed has objectively affirmed there is life on Earth. As a control experiment, the Galileo spacecraft confirmed in its 1990 fly-by that Earth meets the Sagan criteria for harboring life. Femto 14:42, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I think what's tricky is deciding what counts as life. I bet there's an article somewhere on definitions of life, probably at life, but it's way too almost-two-in-the-morning for me to follow my own link. If memory serves, the Sagan criteria were for garden-variety life-as-we-know-it life? I'm going for the record in the hundred-meter excessive-unnecessary-hyphenation-style write-off. Kai 06:55, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Science isn't neutral?

To the flat Earth advocate,

Since when isn't science neutral? Scientific theories must be testable and falsifiable, and subjected to peer review. Sometimes science is faked, but fake science can be disproved by better science, and the process is neutral. If the scientific method is not neutral, then what basis do we have to discuss neutrality? The flat Earth is a well known theory, but it is widely regarded as an inferior theory to the spherical Earth (and related cosmos), because the modern theory makes better predictions. If your theory makes better predictions than the sidereal theory, then cite your sources. If your flat Earth theory makes no predictions, and accounts for nothing that the modern theory does not, then how is it relevant? Should we assume that you have equal objections to the human article, since it describes people as a species of animal, rather the descendents of deities? But science does not contradict any alternative theory of the cosmos, and it is neutral on the subject of religion, because untestable hypotheses are not the subject of science. Science is the activity of finding neutral grounds for which to debate the subjects of empirical inquiry. Wikipedia is not a source of the truth, it is a secondary source which reports the consensus of verifiable primary sources. Disagreements on a scientific basis would perhaps be relevant, but disagreements on a basis that is untestable are unwinnable arguments and do not form the subject of an encyclopedia article. oneismany 14:23, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

This article conforms nicely to NPOV as far as I can tell. The allegations of POV based on religious reasons are groundless. Just as pro-science editors do not slap NPOV tags on religious articles for stating the earth is 6000 years old in those articles, biblical literalist editors should reciprocate that courtesy.--JohnDO|Speak your mind 18:24, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Physical Characteristics

The bit which lists the geologic components and their depths seems to imply that the atmosphere is less a part of the earth than the solid bit, which varies from standard. Perhaps it should list all layers of the earth and their altitudes, with the sub-solid-surface layers in negative altitudes? I felt I ought to get feedback from more qualified parties before I made a rash change to a good article. Kai 07:06, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Location in the Universe

Just wondering if it would be a good idea to describe the location of the Earth within the universe as best we can. It seems like a major omission that the article doesn't even mention that the Earth is in the Milky Way galaxy. There is also no mention of nearby stars. Let's write the article in such a way that a reader who is not from Earth would be able to come visit.

I think this would be a good idea. Also sorely lacking is a "History" section which I plan to add as I work on History of Earth. — Knowledge Seeker দ 00:37, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


  • Just changed third planet form the sun to third planet of the sol system, I think its more specific, i.e. "Sun" is a relative term and could pretty much apply to any star. "Sol" the latin name for our sun is the generally accepted name.cros13 15:51, 3 April 2006

Albedo

I notice that Albedo in the infobox seems to be the Geometric Albedo of the Earth, not the Bond Albedo. Should Bond Albedo be included as well? - Bill3000 16:53, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

History

(Practically) every article deserves a "history" section, in my opinion. I just added one, but it is not easy to condense 4.5 billion years into a single paragraph. Feel free to add or trim as necessary. — Knowledge Seeker দ 06:31, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Mostly harmless!

Flameviper12 12:59, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Age

This article starts out saying the scientific evidence indicates the Earth was formed 4.57 billion years ago and refers the reader to Age of the Earth, which lists the formation at 4.55 billion years ago. What is the source for this age? — Knowledge Seeker দ 17:57, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

4.53 to 4.58 billion years from Canyon Diablo section of Age of the Earth, if that helps. Vsmith
It comes from 4.56717 +/- 0.0007 Gyr which is a high precision date for the earliest CAI formation from Amelin, Krot, Hutcheon, and Ulyanov, "Lead Isotopic Ages of Chondrules and Calcium-Aluminum-Rich Inclusions", Science 297, Sept. 6, 2002. It technically provides an approximate bound for the age for solar ignition, but the bulk of the Earth coalesced not more than a few tens of millions of years after that. Dragons flight 21:29, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Population should be included in infobox

Don't you agree? --Revolución hablar ver 20:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

If I could decide, I'd devote this article only to the planet Earth. Demographics and other data not related directly to our planet as astronomical body should belong to other articles. The world article (after heavy improvement) is perhaps the most suitable for that.--Jyril 20:40, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't see anything wrong with the inclusion of world population in the infobox because yes this is a planet, but it is also OUR planet. Earth is different from Mars, from Venus, from Jupiter, from Pluto, because people actually live here. 6.5 billion humans live on this planet, so I think that's notable.
IMHO that's the very reason why mentioning the number of people is unnecessary. But this is just a matter of opinion.--Jyril 11:09, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
We have the whole Human geography subsection devoted to us. I wouldn't think people who don't know which planet they live on (I know some…) will have much use for some number in an infobox either. In this context the actual number is no more notable than the number of ants. Or the overall biomass; I'd rather see that than only the humans. Femto 11:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

This is Archive_ 4 covering August 8, 2006 - August, 23, 2006 .

Talk archives for Earth (current talk page)
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Known by Humans

Isn't it redundant to describe the earth as the only place known by humans to support life? Most readers assume that encyclopedia articles reflect human knowledge... Sceptre Seven 14:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Earth#The_Moon

Te picture states that "Earth and Moon to scale." ,Distance included in the scale? if so ,it should be stated in the article...

After a quick ruler check, I've updated the caption to reflect that both the sizes and distances appear to be to scale. Specifically, on my display, an 8-mm Earth = 8,000 miles => 223 mm distance = 223,000 miles, which is about right for a rough check. A similarly rough check on sizes (8-mm Earth to 3-mm Moon) seems to have the Moon a bit bigger than it should be (0.273 Earth diameter, according to The Moon, instead of 0.38), but I'll assume the image creator was more accurate than my quick measurements for now. In any case, we should update the image description to confirm exactly what is to scale. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 15:52, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


The surface area of the Earth

Hey. Sorry, I'm not very good with editing page but I think this is what I'm suppposed to do when making a discussion...?

Anyhow, it says the surface area of the Earth is 510,065,284.702 km². How can this be measured to such a degree of accuracy? It is obviously not true because I could dig a hole in my back-garden and spread the soil evenly across my lawn. This would change the surface area...

Because the surface area = 4\pi r^2\,\! and the "surface area radius" is known as the authalic radius, which equals about 6371.005076123 km. Of course the precision/accuracy is theoretical——but since everything else is measured to .001 km, we might as well be consistent, especially as a reference source (in most cases the reader will probably round it to 510,000,000 km, but the theoretically-precise-to-the-meter value is given for the record). ~Kaimbridge~ 13:55, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
That's fantastically dumb. All of those numbers should be cropped down to something consistent with their uncertainty. Dragons flight 01:10, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Well if that's the case, given the variation in terrain, why not just let a = 6380 and b = 6355? P=/
Because these specific values have been refined (via GPS and other means) to theoretically less than .001 km. If one is using a specific model (be it GRS-80/84, Hayford/International, Clarke or whatever) involving other data based on it (e.g., such as in dealing with the direct problem of geodesy), then that specific model should be used throughout. But this article is meant as a planetary overview——most planetary sources round a and b to only .01 km [8]: Given the extensive refinement over time made, I see no reason why the rounding shouldn't be extended to .005 km, which is real close to the most recent, established models, and provides the same general ellipticity of these established models (including IUGG's GRS-80/84):
               a,b          b/a
           (6380,6355 = 0.996081505)
           (6378,6357 = 0.996707432)
      6378.14,6356.75 = 0.996646358
  6378.2064,6356.5838 = 0.996609925
    6378.388,6356.912 = 0.996633005
     6378.16,6356.775 = 0.996647152
    6378.137,6356.752 = 0.996647140
    6378.136,6356.749 = 0.996646826
    6378.135,6356.750 = 0.996647139
    6378.134,6356.751 = 0.996647452
I have updated the physical characteristic section to reflect reference values and reasonable precision, which for the surface area came out to a few hundred km^2 rather than 0.001 km^2. Dragons flight 02:23, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
You seem to be arguing both ends: On one hand you're saying GRS-80/84 should be used since it is IUGG established (I think that is being too model specific, given the other models still in widespread use——.005 km is adequate for a general purpose, non-datum specific model for Earth, particularly since it is so close to the most recent established values), and on the other hand you are saying the subsequent values found (surface area, etc.) should be rounded to 100s of km2——let the READER round it! P=) I certainly have no problem, though, with a disclaimer pointing out uncertainties and precision practicality! P=) P=) P=) ~Kaimbridge~ 09:38, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Kaimbridge, it is basic error propogation. If A = a*b (obviously not the Earth, but a simple example), then the uncertainty in A is dA = ((b*da)^2)+(a*db)^2)^(1/2) where da and db are the uncertainties on a and b respectively. With an uncertainty of order 5 m in the edge length, the uncertainty in the area is magnified by the length scale (e.g. 6400 km) to give dA of order 50 km^2. Now this is just an approximation, working it out correctly (and keeping things like factors of 4 pi) gives an uncertainty in the area of a few hundred km2. Hence having more precision than that is simply false advertising. We shouldn't be feeding the reader meaningless digits. Dragons flight 15:55, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
PS. I'm not wedded to any particular set of reference values, but I used what I had at hand when updated. I am however committed to cropping measurements down to a level consistent with what is known rather than offering as many digits as a calculator will display. For the record, if f(a,b,c) is a function of independent variables a, b, and c with normally distributed uncorrelated errors da, db, and dc respectively, then the error in f is given by df = \sqrt{({\partial f \over \partial a} da)^2+({\partial f \over \partial b} db)^2+({\partial f \over \partial c} dc)^2}. Dragons flight 17:39, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

The poor quality animated GIF image

Look you all I'm not vandalizing the article....I'm just removeing an eyesore from it to improve its quality. How about this if I find a better one would that work? 138.163.0.37 00:36, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Yes. Danny Lilithborne 00:40, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
  • User 138.163.0.37 I have put a silghtly better image on the Earth page. DO NOT DELETE IT without discussing it here.....it is only fair Aeon 00:41, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
  • The old image definitely was sub-par, and I agree with its removal, 138. Aeon's image is better, but I still think the article would look better without it. Also, with an unknown copyright status, the image will likely be deleted soon anyway. — Knowledge Seeker দ 01:25, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Adding a caption to the rotating earth image

New satellite.
New satellite.

Hey how do I add a caption to that image? any help would be great Aeon 00:45, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Use something like [[Image:IAstronaut-EVA.jpg|thumb|right|200px|New satellite.]], which I used to display the image at right. Aeon, where did you get the animation of the rotating Earth? — Knowledge Seeker দ 01:28, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I did a google search....I will find the site and get the copyright status of it....Aeon 02:24, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I change the image found one that was not copyrighted and added a caption. Aeon 02:32, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Where did you get this image? Could you supply the URL? — Knowledge Seeker দ 02:35, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Need help correcting factual error re age of Earth

Article states: "Scientific evidence indicates that the Earth and the moon were formed around 7,000-10,000 years ago." Obviously, this is not true.

In fact, all scientific evidence points to an earth that is about 4.6 billion years old, along with the rest of the solar system. An earth younger than 10,000 years exists only in the belief system of certain religions, and is not based on scientific analysis. If someone experienced with Wikipedia could correct this, we would all appreciate it. Thanks.66.243.43.98 21:13, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

You're correct; an anonymous user changed it and I didn't notice it until fifteen minutes later. It should be correct now. Thanks for pointing it out! — Knowledge Seeker দ 21:31, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

two hemispheres

(near the winter and summer solstices, which are on about December 21 and June 21, respectively).

With respect the Earth had two hemispheres last time I check and that this statement referrs only to the northern hemisphere, for the southern Hemisphere this is factually incorrect as summer solstice occurs about December 21 and the winter solstice occurs about June 21. Gnangarra 14:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Earth's future

In the chapter named "Earth's future" it says both "billion years" and "Gyr". I believe it should be corrected. Only one term should be used. --Idan Yelin 04:42, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I tried to clarify the use of the term in the text. Repeatedly saying a "thousand million" seems excessively wordy. Thanks. — RJH 17:44, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

the use of "GYR" should be explained better. I followed the link to the page it refers me to and yet I cannot find any reference to the abbreviation used. I can only find "gaussian year" and "great year". the one that is in use is not specified. this seems a very strange measurement of time anyway. why not simply use the standard units of time? and add trillions or billions or whatever you need to. if this article is supposed to be for everyone it should use terms that normal people can understand. it should be standard. 17:08, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Pangaea

The section of Pangaea, while well written, doesn't really belong in this article, in my opinion. It seems out of place and a bit arbitrary—why a section on Pangaea and none of the other continents or supercontinents? Perhaps a section on continental movements could be included instead, or perhaps relevant information discussed briefly in the Earth#History section. — Knowledge Seeker দ 08:36, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The subject is already covered at a higher level in the History section. I think the Pangaea section should be merged into the Pangaea page. — RJH 19:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
As it appears to be the introduction of that article, I removed the section. — Knowledge Seeker দ 21:40, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Moon and the Earth's Axial tilt

Perhaps somebody knows the answer to this question: If the Moon continues to recede from the Earth, at what point (time or distance) will it no longer exert a significant influence in stabilizing the axial tilt of our planet? Thank you. — RJH 03:01, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

~2 Gyr. [9]. Dragons flight 04:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Mostly Harmless.

Pressure

Isn't the pressure 101.325 kPa? 203.218.86.162 11:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

How about removing the adverbs?

Is anybody but me struck by how silly it is to write Precipitation patterns vary widely ... or The Earth's terrain can vary greatly ...? Precipitation varies widely compared to what? Precipitation on Mars? Jupiter? My back yard? I could be wrong here but I bet Jupiter has a lot more variation in precipitation, just becuase it probably has a lot more precipitation overall. Things can only vary widely or greatly in comparison to something else. When you're talking about the whole Earth itself there really isn't much to compare against. Just making the sentences longer to make them look good buys us nothing.

I tried removing an adverb once, writing just Precipitation patterns vary ... but somebody put it back. Rather than start an edit war I figured I'd point out the sillyness here. --kop 05:57, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I see what you're trying to say here. I agree with you that it's absolute rubbish to compare something with... absolutely nothing. People should rather stop writing BS on all the articles in order to express their ideologies. We want a Wikipedia with factuous information that can be and has already been proven. People should also be more careful when edititing articles because they never know what simple-minded person they might influence with this BS of them. --Scotteh 17:58, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Ideology

"The Earth was formed around 4.57 billion (4.57×109)[1] years ago (see Age of the Earth) and its largest natural satellite, the Moon, was orbiting it shortly thereafter, around 4.533 billion years ago."
This part is nonsense and cannot be proven. Therefore I have removed it. --Scotteh 17:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Do not remove well sourced valid content. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 17:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Are you saying that because some fool wrote a book about how old the planets are that is enough reason to believe this nonsense? I believe you are ignorant, therefore you are ignorant. What's the logic within that? Stating the Earth is how many ever billion years old, is foolish because the author of this hypothesis has not beared in mind the factors of thermodynamics, to say the least. Also, stating that the Earth is so many billions of years old, is in contrast with the beliefs of Christians, and is therefore discriminating that specific group. Until someone climbed into a time machine and visited the time when the Earth began existing, and confirmed it's age, the "billions of years"-statement is bogus. Therefore such utter nonsense must be removed off this Wikipedia. I will not go on an immature edit war, so I'll leave ignorant Wikipedia articles to the ignorant Wikipedia community. Also, I do not understand who tagged that citing as well sourced and valid. Must be the author himself. --Scotteh 18:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I would say, if you want to challange the scientific evidence, provide alternative scientific evidence that shows the page is incorrect. Just your assertion will not do. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 18:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
And who suddenly gave science so much authority? This planet is not inhabited solely by scientists. It seems Europeans always want to do away with what God says, nevermind their own contrasting so called evidence. Why, you know I'm just a kid and I don't have much knowledge about these stuff, but if you go ask other people who don't lurk around Wikipedia for their whole lives, you'd be surprised about what you'd found. Hereby I settle this. Wikipedia has proven itself unworthy of providing sourceful information, and it's only reason for existense is to be a message board for atheists to agree on nonsense. Unless this would change in any way, Wikipedia would remain a foolish resource, or dumpsite, for any reasarch done. --Scotteh 18:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, if that is your view of wikipedia, so be it. Because if we would base the entries in religeon, we will need a long discussion about which religeon, because mine gives a very different picture than yours for example. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 18:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough. --Scotteh 18:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
So, until that is settled in this world, I suggest to leave religeon out of the equation for articles like this. :-) -- Kim van der Linde at venus 19:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, you win. For now. --Scotteh 19:15, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It is not about winning as far as I am concerned. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 20:15, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
And as far as I am concerned, it is. So then it is all about winning. Oh please, you know what I mean. --Scotteh 20:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, if that is the way you want to see it. In my view, winning is with a loser, and I do not view you as the loser of our discussion. In this context, you might be interested in Age of the Earth page, especially under prescientific concepts. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 21:01, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually I was the loser. But thanks anyway. And thanks for the articles. --Scotteh 21:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

My troll detection unit is blinking. Should I be concerned? :-) — RJH (talk) 22:22, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Names for the planet Earth?

The Lexicography section gives cognates to "earth" which is interesting in its own right (although it might show the need for an article on earth - although this might be too similar to soil) but what I'd be interested in names other cultures use for "Earth". I assume most Indo-European languages also use their equivalent to "earth" but what about elsewhere? Some of it is touched on in the first paragraph of the Descriptions of Earth section but are there more? It may be that it is all as mundane as our own naming system but there may also be interesting information that could be drawn together. So would some kind of new section ("Names for the planet Earth" perhaps?) be worth considering? (Emperor 17:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC))


RV problem

For some reason, whenever I try to RV some edits, I get redirected to an edit conflict with Simon Harcourt, peculiar... 惑乱 分からん 10:00, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Me too - anybody have any idea what's causing this? Bob 11:01, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Right now, I even have trouble to view the page, if I don't check out the history. But it doesn't seem to be a user-related problem. (I think I even saw one user RV that religious edit, on one occasion, can't get back to that now, however...)
Might be some software conflict, where two pages have the same ID or something... (Uhhh, what am I saying?) 惑乱 分からん 11:36, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Same problem on Age of the Earth - can't get edit to revert, methinks someone is playing Vsmith 12:17, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

comment in opening paragraph

"distance from the Sun, and the fifth in order of size. We are mostly harmless." what is that comment about? --Dan 20:42, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

It's a reference to the Earth's entry in the fictional book Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, although it's very out of place.


MASS

can we have some different measurements for mass? I spent AGES trying to figure out how many teratons the earth was..... I now know it to be roughly 5 billion teratons, but it took me a LOT of searching and a LOT of (what I consider) complex maths...


Should we add units in English/Imperial?

It's a great article, however it contains units of measure that are virtually meaningless to roughly 5% or so of the world's population. I propose to add English/Imperial measurements to all the figures given, using google calculator. Any objections? Supercam 21:25, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Given the number of units in the article, it will make it longer (particularly the infobox) and possibly harder to read. Who are the 5% who would find them meaningless? Perhaps a link to a page about the units would be better. I'm sure there's one here somewhere. Kevin 21:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
As an American who has difficulty with with metric/SI units, I still strongly support their use in scientific (and other) contexts. In my opinion, providing conversions for all the units would make the article needlessly bloated; readers who are unfamiliar with SI units may use Google Calculator or their method of choice to convert to their desired measurement system. — Knowledge Seeker দ 03:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Word for "Earth" in other languages

Added a brief paragraph on the word for "Earth" in other languages, since I was curious about this and couldn't find it in other articles, or via Wiktionary. The best that I could come up with is this, via Google search. The examples are therefore all transliterated into English. Anyone with more experience in these languages or with linguistics, please feel free to add or revise the paragraph. --Brasswatchman 22:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)


Earth's Equator

Am I at all correct or am I simply mistaken to think that the approximate mileage around the equator of the earth is something short of like 8000 miles in distance in the circle round the equator. I think (although I am not sure) that the actual mileage is something possibly close to 7,480 miles. I try to relate and to comprehend this number in such a way as to think as to how and to break it all down. Well ( i think to myself) if I drove 1000 miles then I would need to drive about another 6 and half times that distance around the earth to complete a full circle. And that is of course assuming my automobile could travel over the water and not sink to the bottom of the ocean. Maybe the Wikipedians out there could help to illuminate the precise expanse of the mileage and distance around the equator of the earth. I tend to comprehend the concept of actual miles better than I do kilometers or any other system of measurement. Is there a precise and a confident consensus for the number of miles starting from point A and either going west or east until you finally reach point B when you travel around the globe in a nice straight line. www.geocities.com/berniethomas68 02:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Not even close! P=)
The distance around the equator equals 2\pi\,\! times the equatorial radius, a, which——for Earth——equals about 6378.135 km/3963.19 mi, so the equatorial circumference equals about 40,075.0 km/24,901.5 mi (if you're looking for the north-south, meridional circumference, that's an ellipse requiring the elliptic integral of the second kind, but works out for Earth to be about 40,007.9 km/24,859.7 mi——and the average circumference, as a whole, is about 40,041.5 km/ 24,880.6 mi!).  ~Kaimbridge~ 14:23, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Kaimbridge, therefore, is it correct to say of that the equator is 24,901.5 miles around ? www.geocities.com/berniethomas68 18:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

It depends whether you want the nominal distance around an imaginary flat surface around the equator at its average height (which is probably about what you said, but you gave it too many significant figures: I would write 24,900 miles), or the actual distance, which will be very difficult to measure accurately, because of going up and down hills. (Consider: it may be a mile in a straight line, but if you drive over a hill, even in a totally straight line on the ground, you will cover more than a mile on the road). Notinasnaid 18:14, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually I did round it to reflect a radius of between 6378.135 - 6378.137, which appears to be the most advanced and "accurate" value known. Of course it doesn't take into account local terrain——it is based on a smooth, "sea level" ellipsoid. So distances found, likewise, reflect a mathematically defined "smooth, sea level surface" (as opposed to the geoidal) surface, which takes into account gravity based, regional sea level variations). If the reference radius is good to .001, then the "reference distance" is also good to at least .001. Of course, once you calculate the distance, you can then round it to whatever precision serves your needs. Informally, if you want to include local terrain (Terr), find the "sea level distance" (DxE) and apply the Pythagorean theorem (making sure DxE and Terr are worked in the same measuring unit——i.e., meters, feet, km or miles):
DxE_{adj}=\sqrt{DxE^2+Terr^2};\,\!
Keep in mind, though, this equation is vertically loxodromical in nature, so it degrades as the length grows (but should be good enough for tens of miles P=).  ~Kaimbridge~ 15:07, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Name Terra

Shouldn't this page be titled Terra? Its the scientifically and politically correct term for Earth,same for the moon being called Luna. While some think it's just Latin, its also the proper scientific term.

There's nothing scientific correctness in the name Terra, as our planet does not happen to have an "official" name. Terra it is the Latin name for Earth, however this is the English Wikipedia and we should use English names if possible.--JyriL talk 21:34, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

POV

This section has been returned to the main talk page[10]

Some changes

I change the whole layout, added hydrosphere, changed plate tectonics (which is theory) to facts about tectonic plates on Earth, added pedosphere and some other minor changes. To write article about Earth is quite though task. There's too much information taht should be included and many other articles on Wikipedia related. GeoW 16:55, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Time for another archive soon

I beleive that most current discussions are resolved. HighInBC 19:38, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
Talk archives for Earth (current talk page)
<< 1 All-1to10 5 >>

Pop culture section

This entry needs a section called "Earth in popular culture", to keep it in line with every other wikipedia entry. Simbachu 20:32, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree it can consolidate some of the loose refences such as the Hitchhiker reference HighInBC 20:42, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The section made by this request, "Earth in Modern Culture", seems to lack proper, accurate information of any kind that could provide a reader with proper greater knowledge about the Earth in said context, to be precise the conclusion that Earth implies "reason" or "life" is subject to discussion and more a matter of perspective that proper information, that is to say that up to now the section is not only a stub, but a piece of accumulated junk, unless something can be done about its content to be something more than meaningless I would say said article better deserves deletion.---GTB 6:29 am Lima Peru 20/10/2006

A Very Special Note from the Management

Q. Should I replace this article with the words "mostly harmless" or "harmless", as per The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?

A. No. Every other vandalism to this article is just that, and people who do this will be the first against the wall when the revolution comes. Share and enjoy!

I was thinking about doing this myself, but I had a feeling it would have been done before. Oh wells :-) Bennity 11:50, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Damn! Karlusss 22:21, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Heh, I thought out it too, but couldn't bring myself to do it... great minds think alike apparently. 149.161.20.23 15:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Yet another archive

I have archived the talk page as it was getting long, please move any discussion still active back here. HighInBC 20:00, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

POV (evolution/age of earth)

Sorry for bringing this up again, but I was still going to ask something. --Scotteh 20:06, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

This article is pathetic - I'm sorry to say. Someone please change it. The whole article is written in the evolutionist's perspective and cites rubbish referances. Are we now forgetting that there exist other theories over the age of the earth, etc.? Howcome this article only contains the theories of the evolutionists? Half the world does not even support evolution! This is pathetic. With articles such as these, Wikipedia is only going to become more and more unreliable. --Scotteh 19:02, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

This article is written on the basis of science. Which other point of view are you trying to get into this article?? Please provide citations. HighInBC 20:38, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
You can't ignore that evolution is the only theory in existence. Have you ever heard of Creationism? Intelligent Design? I'm sure there are many more, but I'm just taking them for examples. --Scotteh 05:03, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Technical topics are expected to reflect the views of experts in the field. You'd be hard pressed to find credible experts on the history of the Earth who believe in either creationism or intelligent design. While many people do accept those views as a matter of faith, from an evidentiary standpoint they are not credible alternatives to describing the history and evolution of the Earth. Though perhaps the article could benefit from a section on origin beliefs and other faith based views. Dragons flight 05:46, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
...Just so long as Turtles all the way down gets its fair share of attention! ;-)
Atlant 14:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why they aren't credible. Whoever said that science was the only credible theory to the age of the earth? No one will ever prove the age of the earth and therefore it's idiotic to exclusively note science's opinion on this. It's situations like this that continue to make Wikipaedia further and further away from being an encyclopaedia, let alone a notable encyclopaedia. --Scotteh 14:09, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is part of the fact-based, not faith-based, community. In articles dealing with physical matters, we deal in actual scientific facts, not various religious mythologies. There are plenty of other articles where you can espouse your particular creation mythology all you like (may I suggest Religious cosmology and Cosmology (metaphysics)), but the Earth article will stay based on the facts as we know them
Atlant 14:37, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Rubbish. How can you say these are facts? None of them has been proven, and if they were "proved" it's not the exact finding that comes out. Stop coming with your fucking mythology crap, I'm not a fucking retard. If you can't argue like a mature person I suggest you keep yourself to your job and stop lurking around Wikipaedia. Now, for anyone who wants to talk about this without fucking about bull shit, I am suggesting that the so-called facts in this article be preceded by "tests has shown" or "it is believed that", you know, stuff in that direction. --Scotteh 17:46, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
This is not personal. It is about reliable sources and verifyability. The information put forward is the most accurate information that can be demonstrated by observable events. There is nothing wrong with believing in any number of things, but that does not mean it is encyclopedic. As far as I know there are no actual experimental results that back up intellegent design. Simply beleiving something does not qualify it as encyclopedic.
This is not an attack on religeon, this is simply not a faith based venue. HighInBC 17:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Sensible, but if it is the most accurate it doesn't mean it is completely accurate. Therefore, saying the earth is so and so many years old, is a lie. --Scotteh 18:14, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Not a lie, just the best of our knowledge. From the official wikipedia policy WP:Verifiability:
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, because Wikipedia does not publish original thought or original research.
As you can see we are not seeking to know what cannot be known, we are demonstrating what the current published sources currently beleive. HighInBC 18:27, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Lots of published sources believe otherwise. This is not good enough a reason. What qualifies as a reliable source? Something that rejects religion? Seems like it to me. Hmpf, that's pathetic. What a sad "encyclopaedia" Wikipaedia is then... --Scotteh 18:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Scotteh, please keep mindful of WP:CIV and WP:NPA. You're pretty far across the line on your reply to me. Meanwhile, you'll also want to keep mindful of WP:AWW. We don't need to qualify every value with "scientists believe that...".

Atlant 18:43, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Who the hell are you???? Do not remove comments that didn't disclose clasified information. --Scotteh 19:11, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Scotteh, I understand that you are upset at having your post removed. Personally I think it is strange that Atlant (talk • contribs) removed this[11] edit, as it only verged on personal attack. This[12] edit is the one that he should have removed, as nobody has the right to use wikipedia for personal attacks. Please we are here to discuss the subject, not the editor. HighInBC 19:27, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I realize now this removal of information was a mistake due to a bug. The edit in question[13] has been returned HighInBC 20:24, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
You are a bunch of religiousless people trying to force your ideologoies down the throats of the religious people. --Scotteh 19:33, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
No force, you can go to another website. Also you will find many articles do delve into religeon when it is on-topic. You are trying to call this some sort of personal campaign against your beliefs but this is just not so. Our refusal you beleive and proffess what you beleive is not an attack on your beliefs. This wiki has clearly defines standards that are made public and these are the standards we abide by. No amount of insisting will change our minds we need relaible citations that clearly illustrate your point of view. HighInBC 19:36, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

(FYI: I didn't deliberately remove anything. But there is some sort of bug in the Wikimedia software where it fails to flag "edit conflicts" on talk pages and so person A's contribution ends up replacing person B's contribution. I believe that is what happened here, but if an apology will help, then: "I apologize; I did not deliberately remove anyone's comments from this talk page."

Atlant 19:39, 23 August 2006 (UTC))

I am beginning to wonder if Atlant is human. It sounds as if it is a computer. Also, this discussion isn't about beliefs. It's about what is right and what's not the truth. Also, if it were about beliefs, then it would include science, because the exclusive noting of evolutionistic beliefs is nothing more than the propagandanization of an unlisted religion trying to diliberately attack other religions through suggestion, and not straight to the face. --Scotteh 19:46, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry Scotteh but this discussion has ceased to be productive. Please present new evidence or put this argument to bed. Simply repeating yourself and attacking your opponents will not change our minds. You are on the verge of being ignored. I would prefer to listen, but only if it is productive. HighInBC 19:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

In that case, I will be back soon (like a week or so) with some evidence and new argumentations. PS: Thanks High in bc for your tolerable and neutral argumentation. --Scotteh 19:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Excellent, also I will leave you with this helpful hint from WP:Reliable_sources:

An opinion is a view that someone holds, the content of which may or may not be verifiable. However, that a certain person or group expressed a certain opinion is a fact (that is, it is true that the person expressed the opinion) and it may be included in Wikipedia if it can be verified; that is, if you can cite a good source showing that the person or group expressed the opinion.

This means that while opinion itself is not welcome, facts about opinion are. HighInBC 19:57, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

So basically you are saying I can come on here and provide a cite, and say that these certain group of people believe that the earth is more than 6 000 years old? Or will evolution always be regarded more factuous than the rest of the beliefs? Ok, what I'm trying to say is, that if I provide a cite which states that there are people believing that the age of the earth is 6 000 years old, would this be mentioned in the article somewhere down below where no one ever reads, or would it get as much attention as the other beliefs, such as evolution, get? --Scotteh 20:06, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, here is how it works. There is scientific evidence that directly supports evolution, so we can say that. Since, as far as I know, there is no scientific evidence for intellegent design you can only prove that people believe in it.

As for it's position in the article I am imagining something along the lines of Despite faith based beleifs that the earth is considerably younger(citation goes here), the majority of scientific evidence suggest that the Earth is approximatly 4.5 billions years old..

Notice I didn't put the 6000 years there? That is because different faith based groups give different estimates. This is of course just my opinion, others may has different views. HighInBC 20:14, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok then. PS: keep this here, I'm going to provide some stuff in the next few hours, maybe days, that could perhaps be included in the article. I also want to see what other users say when they comment on this. --Scotteh 20:22, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Wow, this is like the first time I actually read the article, and it seems that several statements need the {{citation needed}} tag. I don't think it matters how important the statement is, but what about suggesting that someone cite all of these stuff? --Scotteh 20:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
On the to-do list is Implement suggestions from Featured Article review, which includes the need for more citations, this is a wonderful way to improve the article. Also, you may wish to find and place some of those citations there yourself. HighInBC 20:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Just wanted to mention that evolution does not deal with the age of the Earth. -AlexJohnc3 My Talk Page 23:04, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I wanted to point out, that this article is already very long and only briefly touches upon subjects that are covered more in depth in other related articles. Have you taken a look at the Age of the Earth article? Also, Dating Creation and Origin belief deal with this. HighInBC 14:34, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I CANT BELIEVE

Why do so many religionists (mainly), always screw up discussion pages with their holier than thou rants. Is it because they have no proof of their own beliefs and are frustrated that everyone doesn't arbitrarily accept the same faith system to which they were indoctrinated.

Is it because they intuitively know (correctly I might add) that there really is a power greater than mankind, and are so frustrated that the quantum nature of creator cannot be proven but only experienced?

Or is it that after reading scripture translated by those with an agenda, they feel so empty that they must verify their weak position by trying to convince others of its validity? Apparently they keep forgetting the part that suggests your relationship with your maker is a private one, not to be taken to the streets.

Are they wanting answers so desparately they are willing to look foolish as if an attempt to get the attention of someone who really knows something and can give them those answers?

Could it be all of the above? I cant believe I read all that. Scotteh: may I suggest reading more to increase your vocabulary? You had a beginning. You will have an end. The creature should know they were created. The proof is in the mirror. Or not there (a light is on, but no one is home). Alphaquad 14:04, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

This a bit off topic, this is the talk page for discussion the Earth. HighInBC 14:06, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
But relevant to "discussion style" perhaps? And "discussion the Earth" might include a wide range of subjects. Pedantry at its best. Now we've both stated the obvious and have something in common. Now I am thinking off-topic only makes sense in the case of articles. I emphasize the term discussion defined as clear communication unclouded by unstable emotion, that all can benefit, that young ones (and aliens) don't accidentally learn this is the way intelligent people of Earth interact. Understanding causes is critical to a solution. Alphaquad 16:27, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Evolution is just a theory and has very little if not no proof to back it up. This planet is incredible. The trees, the ocean, the sunset. There is no way this planet just appeared and everything just gradually formed. No, im going with intelligent design. Someone has got to change it. Crion Naxx

Perhaps Earth#Notes will interest you, it is full of, well not proof, but citations to the information in this article. Please know that the threshold of inclusion in this enclycopiedia is not truth, but verifiablity. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 04:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
You are free to edit the article to include any theory, so long as evidence is provided and the article remains NPOV. A theory in itself is not POV unless it explicitly demeans another point of view - stating the reasoning behind a theory DOES NOT demean another. Provide respectable evidence for your arguments and it deserves the airtime. --Danlibbo 03:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Opening paragraph

Going back to the previous discussion .... I don't like the opening paragraph:

"The Earth was created by God around 5,000 years ago[1] (see Age of the Earth) and its largest natural satellite, the Moon, was orbiting it shortly thereafter, around 5,000 years ago."

That is a way too biased religious statement. The earth is millions of years old, not 5000. Why can't we just state the age of the earth based on geological fact and add a section specifically for religious beliefs? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.125.115.183 (talk • contribs) .

You are of course right. And it has been reverted to the correct way, such edits are only there for a short time. HighInBC 17:51, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Have another point, isn't Moon is Earth's ONLY natural satellite? If that's the case, why is the word largest is required? It implies that there is more than one natural satellite.... --Cyktsui 01:10, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Sarcasm can be highest or lowest form of humour, I think you pull it off though. Kris 10:58, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Maybe I should have made it a bit clearer, the current sentence is "the Earth was formed around 4.57 billion years ago[1] and its largest natural satellite, the Moon, was orbiting it shortly thereafter, around 4.53 billion years ago."" so there is no 5000 years in there anymore. My point is whether it is more appropriate to remove the word largest. Please comment --Cyktsui 12:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh yeah well that's been fixed anyway now. I thought you were referring to an isolated vandalism attempt ages ago, and making a joke out of a newbie's confusion over it, didn't realize it still said "largest natural satellite". Of course the Moon is Earth's only known true natural satellite, although there may be a little confusion over Cruithne and 2002 AA29. It should stay as is without "largest" being in there, you're right. Kris 13:13, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Talking about the moon section now: On this page 3753 Cruithne is called a co-orbital satellite and on the quasi-satellite page it is listed as one of them. Are these both correct? Also the quasi-satellite page has some more bodies that could go with them. CaspianM
It's a good point and well spotted – I couldn't claim to be an expert, but it would seem there is conflicting information between some pages regarding Cruithne. It is in a horseshoe orbit, which the quasi-satellite article states would disqualify it from being a quasi-satellite. The same article lists Cruithne shortly after as a quasi-satellite, so perhaps it needs to be taken out of that list. By definition it is a co-orbital satellite, as I understand, since it orbits in the Earth's neighbourhood at a similar distance. Kris 19:24, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Composition of the Earth

This is a relatively minor point, but the section on "Composition of the Earth" cannot be quite correct. The percent by mass of the earth that is iron, oxygen, etc. is given; if one adds the percentages of these seven major constituents, one gets 101.1%. Even if each of the percentages were rounded, that still would not be enough to make the real value <= 100%, and one would in fact expect these to add up to slightly LESS than 100%. I went to the referenced source, and the percentages that I found there did not agree with the ones on this page. But I was puzzled as to why someone would have mistranscribed them, and wasn't sure "bulk earth" was the correct category to be looking under. Perhaps someone can look into this and fix it?

Thank you for noticing that. I will look into it tommorow if nobody else does and I remember. HighInBC 18:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone looked at this problem yet? Another thought -- apparently much of earth's large density is due to compression; sources seem to say that the density of the inner core is 13 or even 15 gm/cm^3. This is surprising, since the density of iron is usually around 8 gm/cm^3. How does this work; does iron under extremely high pressures form an unusual crystalline structure or something? How high does the pressure have to be -- would a planet have to be approximately earth-sized for the pressure at the core to be high enough? It would be nice if someone knowledgeable wrote about this or looked into it. Kier07 22:54, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

It could just be a degree of error. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 19:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Clearing the neighbourhood

Removed newly added Clearing the neighbourhood section which linked to planetologists squabbling (see: Clearing the neighbourhood). The article is long enough already without adding their trivial naming squabbles or whatever. Vsmith 00:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Mostly harmless

I'm starting to think people who pull that joke for the umpteenth time should be immediately blocked. Thoughts? Danny Lilithborne 06:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I beleive they are... problem is.. its just random IP addresses most of the time, so unless they have an internet account with static IP, next time they connect they can get back to their old tricks -- Nbound 06:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
IPvandals usually aren't blocked for one incident, but you could always look over the history of this article to see if special beatings are applied to people who re-apply the over-worn joke. The few articles that will get you immediately whacked are usually labled as such in an easily-visible header.
Atlant 22:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
A 'fix' for this may be including a 'mostly harmless' paragraph, which included the HGTTG quote and some information about why the entire Earth entry is not simply 'mostly harmless' Tigger-oN 10:10, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Diameter of earth now vs. 4.5 BYA?

Hi, does anyone have any data or know of references regarding how the diameter of the earth has changes over its evolution? That is, has the diameter of the earth increased or decrease since its inception? I know, according to solar growth rates stored in fossil records, that it's rotation rate is slowing, e.g. at the 2.5 BYA mark the earth rotated once every ten hours, and that at the 4.5 BYA mark it would have been revolving faster than one rotation per hour (Source: Whitrow's What is Time (1972), pg. 63.) Thanks: --Sadi Carnot 12:55, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Id assume the diameter would have shrunk due to cooling -- Nbound 09:45, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

And if we're talking about diametric evolution, the planet will have been more markedly oblate in the past due to faster rotation coupled with lower density, so the polar and equatorial diameters are approaching each other (although they will never be equal). Kris 10:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Lunar age

Just a thought, in the first paragraph the Moon is said to be 4.533Ga old. Firstly, I would like to know where that figure came from, and secondly how come we seem to know it so accurately? I'm not questioning it – I'm sure whoever wrote it knows more about it than me, I would just like to know. Would it not be more correct to state the ages of Earth and the Moon to the same number of significant figures if possible? Kris 08:23, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Surface

In the section surface it writes

  • If all of the land on Earth were spread evenly, then water would rise higher than the Statue of Liberty.

Which is obviously false: simple maths shows that the depth would be "average depth of the seas as they are now" x "percentage of land surface in water". Taking the figures from the article, this yields 3,794x0.708=2686.152. Something like this is noted in the footnote:

  • The average depth is, in fact, significantly greater than the statue of liberty. Letting the average depth be approximately equal to water volume divided by the Earth's surface area: the total volume of water is about 1.4 × 109 km3; the total area of Earth is about 5.1 × 108 km². So the average depth would be roughly 2.8 km, whereas the statue of liberty is only 0.093 km, including the pedestal.

I find this setup rather confusing - wouldn't it make more sense to leave out the Statue of Liberty altogether, because it is nowhere close to comparable?80.109.92.235 00:05, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

  • I changed it include an approximate figure in the text directly, in place of the off-topic comparision with the SoL. The sentence still feels a bit awkward, though.80.109.92.235 00:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Why is the Earth round?

Why is the Earth round? Ok. Get this. Think of a ball. You are on a ship going down the curve. Wouldn't you suddenly be upside down? But that isnt the case. Therefore, I will reword my question. Why don't ships go upside down when traversing down the curve of Earth if it were round? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.89.40.251 (talk • contribs) .

See Gravity. -- Arwel (talk) 00:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Gravitational attraction is always towards the center of mass of any object. For a round planet, that point is somewhere near the center of the planet, so gravitational attraction is always roughly towards the center of the planet as well (that is, "down" into the ground).
Atlant 00:30, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Yep... else id be floating off into space about now... (Im in Australia) -- Nbound
Given that this question is not completely dumb, how would you know you were upside-down, anyway? Danny Lilithborne 00:46, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Quite true... how do we know this isnt how it really is? :P -- Nbound 00:55, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
That map is as valid as any other.
Atlant 01:13, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

"often incorrectly referred to as Terra"

On what basis is "Tellus" to be considered "correct" and "Terra" incorrect?

This seems like yet another case of bringing in a lesser-known bit of knowledge (in this case that "Tellus" is also a name of the Latin earth goddess) and arbitrarily declaring that a particular interpretation based on it is "correct."

"Terra" is Latin for earth, as in soil, but also land in the sense of territory (e.g., the new world, "terra nova") and the earth as a whole (notably, "In principio creavit Deus caelum et terram."). English partly follows this very pattern. We talk about tilling the earth, or an earthy smell, but also of the earth as a whole. This sort of metaphoric extension is fundamental in language. Further, Terra is the earth goddess and by extension the earth itself. For example, from Bullfinch's Mythology: "A celebrated exploit of Hercules was his victory over Antaeus. Antaeus, the son of Terra, the Earth, was a mighty giant and wrestler [...]"

"Tellus" appears to be another name for the earth goddess. Bullfinch has (in the story of Medea and AEson) "To the stars she addressed her incantations, and to the moon; to Hecate, the goddess of the underworld, and to Tellus the goddess of the earth, by whose power plants potent for enchantment are produced."

It's not clear how to pick a "correct" choice between the two. "Terra" and "Tellus" appear to be simple alternations and are almost certainly cognate to begin with. Either that, or there were actually two earth goddesses, with suspiciously similar names and attributes, in which case on what basis do we decide that one is "correctly" considered as representing the planet as a whole?

Modern usage at least seems to strongly prefer "Terra", so if one is to be considered "correct" it should be "Terra". -Dmh 17:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I see your point, I support removing any uncited material stating something is incorrect. A bold statement like that needs a citation. HighInBC 18:07, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
It appears someone has re-introduced a milder version of this statement, referencing the entry for Terra (mythology). This in turn flatly states that the disticntion is technically correct Classical Latin. I did a little digging and — bearing in mind that I'm no expert in Latin — found that Ovid tends to contradict this. I won't mess with the Earth article until this resolves, but it's not clear to me why it's important to note a technical distinction in Classical Latin here, even assuming it to be accurate. There's no end of English usage of Terra as earth, and as far as I can tell some Latin usage as well. -Dmh 06:12, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Good catch, wikipedia does not use itself as a reference, so I have removed the reference in question. I attempted to use the citations from the Terra (mythology) article, but one was a dead link and the other provided next to no information. HighInBC 14:20, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I've taken out the statement in Terra (mythology). There appears to be a grain of truth, in that the notion has been around for a while (e.g., Aquinas asserts that the Romans held such a distinction), but there doesn't seem to be much evidence that the Romans themselves cared that much, except perhaps in some limited context. In any case, it seems at best a rather technical point not worth mentioning here. I'm taking it back out -Dmh 21:27, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

global warming

humans love cars. stop it. think about global warming. lets all protest the stinking oil. ok? walk to work . just walk. forget cars. screw anything that involves mass greenhouse emissions. now if youre just addicted to cars, then screw you. you will get drowned by the oceans. (and wait im not talking nonsense) with more ice caps melting... the oceans will cool and then they will absorb more heat and technically there could be another ice age. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.142.143.42 (talk • contribs) .

not everyone lives within walking distance of work -- Nbound 04:01, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

And this has to do with the article at hand how? -66.57.45.134 23:55, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

In any case, global warming is a myth, according to reliable scientific data. 222.153.235.96 04:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Rotating Earth animation

Sorry to be a bit pedantic, but this animation is incorrect: it does not take into account the Earth's axial tilt. Should it therefore be removed?

Martin.Budden 17:15, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's incorrect though- it shows the rotation of the Earth on a equinox.WolfKeeper 22:01, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
At equinox the sun is indeed directly above the equator, but the Earth's axis is still inclined to the orbital plane. In terms of the animation this means that one of the poles should be "nearer" the viewer and one of the poles "further away". Martin.Budden 21:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I chose this camera angle for viewing as much detail as possible. Camera bearing spacecraft could theoretically be anywhere. We cannot call it an impossible view. Thanks for the comment Martin. At this point I am wondering if a Wiki Planetarium project is underway. I have collected all the data and matrix math needed for the project and put it in one place. Most of the data available is of our little corner, so a working Planetarium should be linked to Alpha_Quadrant and certainly to Planetarium. Even an Opengl applet is possible with certain browsers. What will we title the page and where should it be discussed? A picture[14] is worth 1000 words - Working version nearly complete. "Don't bite the newcomers!" Alphaquad 02:18, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Sorry the delayed reply. I agree that the animation, strictly speaking, is not incorrect. However I assumed the "camera" would be in the Earth's orbital plane and I expect the average high school student would make the same assumption. I don't think you would loose any detail if the camera was moved into the Earth's orbital plane and the animation would then also illustrate the Earth's axial tilt - so in fact you would be showing more detail. Martin.Budden 23:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Fulfilled Request

As requested in the priority one to do list since September 4th 2006 regarding implementing suggestions from featured article review for this article I have taken action to implement on October 1st 2006. Only minor action was taken for a few examples of grammar, as well as changing the word simular to similar which appeared to have a meaning closer to its paragraph in context. Please read, discuss, and keep as the consensus of the group here sees fit. I now go to the next priority one to do list. Absolutely no worries at all. Neutralaccounting 05:45, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Images

I am from Earth, atleast I will be staying here a while, anybody want me to take some specific pictures while I am here? HighInBC 14:23, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Earth Infobox

Template:Planet Infobox/Earth was placed on TFD by someone who doesn't like the fact that it stands alone by itself. Please visit the TFD and express your opinion on this issue. Dragons flight 17:47, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

sure take pics of all the landmarks, i hear u have weird substances here on earth qantas goes to venus!

Words for Earth in other languages

I think it interesting that people have made the effort to write the word for Earth in other languages, but why is there no transliteration of the Sanskrit word? "Words for Earth in other languages include: पृथ्वी pr̥thvī (Sanskrit)".DDD DDD 01:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I am from another planet and was wondering if someone could tell me about life on Planet Earth?

Composition

This section needs some lengthening. That, or actually put some relevent information in the link to another article. This section states composition, but doesn't even state if this is composition by mass or by number of atoms. I recall this information used to be on wikipedia, however now it is on neither page. Harley peters 21:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


region?

There should be more info. about which regions prefer "earthing", "earthing system", as compared to "ground", "grounding", "grounded", "grounding system"?

This does seem extremely dependent on dialect, region, neighborhood.

earth_ground;

ground_(electricity);

ground_(electrical);

ground_(power);

ground_and_neutral.

Then there is "earthling".

hopiakuta ; [[ <nowiki> </nowiki> { [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] } ;]] 22:30, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Pedosphere

I was taking a quick scroll of the article and saw the section Pedosphere and thought it was vandalism so hit history to revert it but couldn't find the diff very quickly - so I clicked on the link for it and turns out there's such thing as a pedosphere lol. I wonder if anyone has incorrectly deleted this before. --WikiSlasher 11:40, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Image caption

An image caption currently reads:

A part of the earth as it looks in its round shape. This is not how it looks from space, however it is what the earth's shape is.

To which my reaction is basically "uhh... what?". This needs more explanation, as it is apparently self-contradictory; how can something have a different shape from what it appears to have? JulesH 07:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

There are several reasons that caption needs nuking and replacing:
"...in its round shape." – Why, what does it look like in its other shapes? I understood it had only one shape, an oblate spheroid.
"This is not how it looks from space..." – Well it isn't, unless Earth was experiencing its best ever weather, but this is a bad way to word it.
"...however it is what the earth's shape is." - Do I really need to break this down? Rubbish.
It's hard to say whether whoever wrote it is a subtle vandal or just a bit encyclopaedically green. Kris 10:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I've re-written the caption but it could probably still use some fine-tuning. Kris 11:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Your Mom

Since when is Earth ever called 'Your Mom'? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.107.7.189 (talk • contribs) 20:29, November 12, 2006 (UTC)

Hehe, that particular edit was there for less than a minute before being repaired, it was vandalism. You just happened to look during the short time it was like that. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 04:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I thought as much. ^_^ A brief part of me thought it was maybe someone trying to describe the Earth as mother of us all, but got a bit confused. Ah well, no bother.


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  • Talk:Earth/Archive 8


  • Talk:Earth/Archive 9


  • Talk:Earth/Archive 10




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