Talk:Earth (Dragon Ball)

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The Earth is also destroyed in Dragonball GT and everybody is moved to the Tuffle planet.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.214.212.90 (talk • contribs).

That is Non-Canon.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.16.231.21 (talk • contribs).
WTF happend to Human_(Dragon_Ball) ??? 81.18.52.160 17:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Dispute

There was a recent dispute about whether Human (Dragon Ball) should be a separate article or a redirect to Dragon World. Apparently it was merged back into Dragon World with the reason being on an edit summary that it didn't have enough content to warrant a page, therefore, it was utterly merged into Dragon World. I am going to have a survey made right here since I believe that the article should be a separate article and a stub that can be expanded by us Wikipedians. Power level (Dragon Ball) 15:21, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add "* Support" if you believe that Human (Dragon Ball) should be a separate article stub that can be expanded. Add "* Oppose" if you agree with it's merger to Dragon World. Your defense must be followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~ --Power level (Dragon Ball) 15:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Support- I most definitely agree to having the article because I believe that the article itself can be expanded. Even if it bears a striking resemblance to Dragon World, it tends to focus more on the types of human-hybrids, people with fictional ki, similarities to Saiyans and other aliens, magic and science, etc. I really don't see why it should utterly be merged with Dragon World. Power level (Dragon Ball) 15:21, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Support in that the redirect of "Human (Dragon Ball)" to "Dragon World" makes no sense. Whether "Human (Dragon Ball)" deserves it's own article or should simply be a redirect to "List of Humans in Dragon Ball" is not at issue here. There is simply no logical reason why "Human (Dragon Ball)" would redirect here. --DesireCampbell 16:02, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Support- Dragon World is about the planet. Human (Dragon Ball) is about one particular race that lives on said planet. Namek and Namekian are separated, so why should these articles be any different?Son Goharotto 16:51, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Support - Articles on fictionalized versions of the human race are allowed, so long as they diffrent enough from the real human race. If suffiecient technological advancement is enough to warrent this, then surely being able to learn how to fly and shoot lazers from your hands is enough, something normal humans CANNOT do. Humans in the Dragon Ball world haveboth this AND advanced technology. Human (Babylon 5) is a sperate article than Earth (Babylon 5) and Human (Star Wars) is a seperate article than Coruscant. Several diffrent varients of the human race are listed here Category:Fictional human races. —The preceding comment is by Animedude360 (talk • contribs) : Please sign your posts!
  • Support - If anything, other races should be merged into this page too. But they' re not, so Human (Dragon Ball) stays =)VelocityEX 19:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Polls are evil. --Deskana talk 19:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Deskana, if you've got an argument for us, you're welcome to share it under the 'discussion' section. --DesireCampbell 20:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Deskana, don't bother putting in redundant little remarks if you're not even gonna vote. Power level (Dragon Ball) 20:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
If you don't like what I said, then I'd say I conveyed my feelings well. My point is that just discussing things is better than taking a poll. Sometimes discussing things makes it more confusing, then a poll would probably be a good idea. --Deskana talk 00:28, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose- I know I'm being out voted, but I just don't think it's necessary.--SUIT 23:04, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
At this point it's an eternal stub. I'm sure guidelines/policies probably supersede the consensus on this one. Nemu 23:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose per User:Deskana and User:SUIT. Also your edit summary for this page was not good: stop it Deskana, I'm tired of you doing that all the time "POLLS ARE EVIL! POLLS ARE EVILS! I"M GONNA CRY! ARGH!!!" That's so annoying.... Please consider being more WP:CIVIL. Yuser31415@?#&help! 03:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose There isn't enough information on this topic to support a stand-alone article. I'd also like to agree that we don't decide things by voting, the discussion is more important. Jay32183 03:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose Per above -- bulletproof 3:16 03:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose per previous. Nothing worth noting that wouldn't be original research or copied content. Furthermore, polls are evil and are merely being used to justify this inclusionist trend between a few users. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 03:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Support As per above arguements. CurlyJ 06:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - actually I think this poll is biased and unformal, and any consensus reached would not guarantee that the result should remain. From what I can see PowerLevel's just trying to disrupt Wikipedia to make a point after a disagreement with another editor (although I have no proof). I'd just like to point out that the result of this informal poll is not definite, and as far as I can see anyone may change the result afterward. Policy should be a higher guideline than this evil poll. Sorry, Yuser31415@?#&help! 07:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Support - I haven't actually seen the page, but in theory the humans of Dragon Ball are just as deserving as any other race. More on discussion. Onikage725 13:29, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Support - If Saiyans have a page why Human's shoudn't have one ... SSJ 5 14:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Support - I have the same feelings as Onikage725. This page is about the Dragon World, not about the humans inhabiting it. Eat Snow 02:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Support - I agree, if Saiyans have their own page, Humans deserve as well. Muchi 17:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

I've reverted Human (Dragon Ball) back with a note on the Talk page. --DesireCampbell 16:17, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, but do you think you're able to expand the article a bit? I'm trying to get more support for its' expanditure. Power level (Dragon Ball) 16:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I can try. But I don't think there's a lot to cover on the article. There could be information about history, technology, and such, but that seems more applicable to an article about Earth (Dragon Ball) rather than an article about one species.
Similarly, I think this article (Dragon World) should be reworked. It seems strange that it's about Earth and not the fictional universe as a whole. I've never heard of "Dragon World" used to describe just the Earth, I've only ever heard the term used to describe the setting as a whole. But that's another discussion altogether. :p --DesireCampbell 16:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The subject is definitely notable enough to be discussed, but I have no idea if there is enough information for it to stand on its own. We don't want to make a permantant stub article. Remember that the poll should not be used to make a binding choice, the discussion should lead to a consensus. Jay32183 21:24, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The subject will not expand because humans at their base level in most fictional series are the same as their real-life counterparts. We don't have an article on humans in Naruto because they can do cool things with chakra, so why have an article on humans who can do cool things with ki in Dragon Ball? The article is at best an eternal stub. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 22:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with all those points. There seems to be very little information regarding humans in Dragon Ball. However, without allowing for at least some time we'll never know if anyone can expand it or not. I'm not saying we should keep the page around forever, just give it a week or so. If nothing improves by then, then bring it up on the Talk page again. If noone is working on it, then merge it with Earth (Dragon Ball). Don't jump the gun, give it time. --DesireCampbell 23:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I hate this argument. It's just a stupid excuse to justify keeping a page and not a real reason at all. We could give it all the time and the world and nothing will happen. Do you want to know why? Because the only people who care are the people who never do anything about it. If there's really something to add, then you could have added it already. It will remain this way indefinitely because the series is over and there's nothing left to add. This isn't like Stargate or Bablyon 5 where the human race is flushed out and given some super-rich historical context for the series. Humans here just exist. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 23:25, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
To further make a point, let's look at the article when it was created to the state it's in now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Human_%28Dragon_Ball%29&diff=92093225&oldid=4921263
See? There's barely anything different. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 23:51, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

IS there actually anything else to say about humans in the Dragon Ball universe? I'd definitely say wait if the issue were tracking down a good source, but having nothing to say is different. Jay32183 00:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I think there's as much as any other race article for DB. Different variants, some anthropomorphic (the president of Earth is a anthro dog for example), unique skills that some can learn like shapechanging, ability to channel ki, ability to crossbreed with Saiyans, high levels of tech (flying cars, time travel, seemingly infinite matter compression) mixed with low levels (large swaths of grassland, relatively few major cities compared to real Earth, required a space vessel to reverse engineer before being capable of space travel, armed forces about equivolent to our own). Like other race pages there could be a list of notable humans, like the other races have (RR, Z Senshi, others like Baba, Grandpa Gohan, Mutaito). Dont forget that before Z there was an entire series that focussed on human-kind. Emperor Pilafs quest, the Red Ribbon Armies campaign, Mutaito saving the world, I'm just throwing some things out there but yea. Also while generally weak they seem to have potential. Kuririn and Gohan (a half human) had their power greatly increased by having their potential drawn out. Half-breeds in general are shown to have great potential, a recurring theme in the series. I would also argue that they deserve mention. I dont mean clutter this page with info stated on the Saiyan page, but being Half-Saiyan they are also Half-Human, and the potential from that mix is brought up numerous times in the series (Raditz states Gohan at PL 710 is stronger than any Saiyan child, and when fully enraged Gohan's stronger than Raditz himself at a mere 4 yrs old).

I think the comment above about humans in Naruto is flawed, because DB is in part sci fi and the series deals with a number of races. None of them (humans included) are "normal." And most of the others have articles.

I agree with this much- there probably isn't enough that can be said divided between the Earth and Human page. It might be prudent to merge one into the other, but I'm not sure of that.

That's my 2 cents anyway. Onikage725 14:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

In order:
Anthro-animals are not humans.
Ki is not unique to humans and neither can they shapeshift (as far as I remember).
Everything else you mention is random details about the civilization, not humankind, and aren't even indicative of the race as a whole. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 16:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
The term used in the original version is "Chikyuu-jin" which means "Earthling" which is defined as "an inhabitant of the earth." Since the indigenous population of Earth is made up of mixes of normal "humans," mutants (i.e. Tenshinhan), and anthros, they would all factor into the article. Perhaps the article should be renamed if anything. To say that a character like Oolong is 100% dissimilar to say Yajirobe to the point of needing either a whole seperate article of no mention at all is splitting hairs. I mentioned shapeshifting in reference to Oolong and Puar as an example of the various mystical aspects and abilities we saw in Z that the average species encountered doesn't demonstrate an ability for. Earthlings in Dragon Ball have aren't as powerful as other species' but they are shown to be versatile and adaptable. And what does ki not being unique to humans have to do with anything? It isn't unique to Saiyans, but there is a whole paragraph on it on their page. And most of the properties listed there (levitation, bukujutsu, energy blasts and waves, boosting physical power, etc.) we first saw in Dragon Ball. Onikage725 17:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Saiyans have a section on how they evolved to be adept in the use of ki. The ability to train with it is a given. It's not unique to the race. As for human's adapatability, try reading other articles on fictional humanity. Can you honestly say there is that much to write about Dragon Ball's humanity, because I know there isn't. Also, blanket terming several different species is even worse. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 17:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
One, prove to me that they aren't. Toriyama never said anything about it. He's even openly admitted that he didn't put much thought into it. He figured animal-people would be cool so he drew some animal people in addition to normal people. It was that same manner of thinking that scored Tenshinhan a third eye. It symbolizes something he thought was cool, and the question of DNA was secondary to drawing a cool character. This is the same world were Goku having a tail was at most slightly odd, and Piccolo Ma Junior could enter a Tenkaichi Budokai without drawing attention so long as he wasn't identified (Green skin, 4 fingers, strange skin tones on arms be damned). The fact that aliens could blend in easily on Earth shows how diversified Earth's population is. Toriyama never drew distinctions, so to draw that distinction ourselves would, it seems to me, be original research.
Two, are we discussing or are you just trying to be right? I was under the impression we were supposed to lay out our opinions on the matter but you seem more interested in pointing out all the ways in which I'm "wrong." My opinion is my opinion. yours differs, that's cool, and I've long since gotten the point. Make some arguments of your own instead of just jumping on other peoples opinions. Onikage725 20:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Even with all that, is it enough to stand on it's own as an article? By your own statement we won't be able to get any information about the concept and creation of the race. So this article would just be a rehashing of the plot then? Jay32183 20:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map of Earth

So, what's the problem with the map of the Dragon World's Earth? --DesireCampbell 04:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

As stated several times, it's a self-drawn map of what a user thinks Dragon World looks like. That makes it OR. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 04:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Huh? It's basically a re-trace of the map out of, shit, I can't remember, Landmark maybe? [1] --DesireCampbell 04:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

If you can find a manga chapter or anime episode that shows that map, feel free to upload it. That image, however, has no source given as to what makes it an accurate depiction of Dragon World, and as such at best an uncited approximation. Until a citation accompanies it, it's just original research. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 04:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I have the Daizenshuu where there is a map of Earth. If no one objects, I'll scan it and upload later. --Son Goharotto 14:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

That'd be great! :) I'm trying to track down someone to scan the map from Landmark as well. --DesireCampbell 18:25, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Perfect! That's all that was needed. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 21:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Okey dokey, here's the scan: Daizenshuu Vol.4 World Guide p74-75. It's more detailed than the map from Landmark (which I don't have), but since it spans two pages, I wasn't able to match it up perfectly in the middle. No information is cut off, fortunately. Any help on getting the event tags (properly) translated would be greatly appreciated. Here's a high-resolution version, if anyone needs it. --Son Goharotto 21:12, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Go ahead and upload if you want to. It be translated later. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 21:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Nevermind, I finished the translations myself. I uploaded the map and added everything to the article. If anyone has a better method of including the information, please feel free to make tweaks. --Son Goharotto 01:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


I already made note of this in the edit history, but it's worth bringing up in discussion before someone makes anymore significant edits. The whole point of adding a map of Dragon World's Earth is to be a reference for where certain events in Dragon Ball take place. Being in Japanese, the map is useless without a translation, hence the Map Locations section. I personally think details about characters and story events are unnecessary, since all that is covered in other articles already. But if you wish to add something, please do so by including a brief summary after the according entry in the existing Map Locations section. I repeat: Do not remove the translations. Son Goharotto 15:13, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What can humans do?

"Due to the similarity saiyans have to humans, the two races are able to interbreed, producing hybrids. Humans in Dragon Ball seem to be capable of feats and abilities not seen in real-life humans. They are able to utilize ki energy, magic, werewolfism, become undead, return from the dead, or live far longer than would be considered normal. Muten-Rôshi and his sister, Uranai Baba, are the best example of this, as both are several hundred years old yet have the physical appearance of people in their eighties. "

There is apparently some contention about these lines, lets look at them specifically:

  • "Humans in Dragon Ball seem to be capable of feats and abilities not seen in real-life humans"

There's no problem there, right?

  • "They are able to utilize "

Is there a problem with this? Is it not clear that while it's not common, humansd are able to do these things? Should it be made more clear?

  • "ki energy "

This is no surprise, right?

  • "magic "

The only human we see using magic is Baba, but that makes it clear that it is possible for humans to do it.

Actually, it was a man-wolf (a wolf that turns into a man, or something), but I guess it's close enough.

There was 'Akuman', that vampire and mummy...

  • "return from the dead "

We see that a lot in the Buu saga, but Granpa Gohan does it early on.

  • "live far longer than would be considered normal "

This may be the most contentious matter. Let's make this clear: the article is not saying this is commonplace, only that such is possible by normal humans (ie: without use of magic, or robotics, or super science, etc). We know that Baba, Kame sennin, Tsuru sennin, and Tao Pai Pai (even before becoming a cyborg) are hundreds of years old, and nothing is ever even hinted at about them using any 'unnatural' means to achieve such age. Nothing, in fact, is ever said about it (expect that Roshi was going to use a pheonix to make him immortal, but it died).
Is there anything still contested here? --DesireCampbell 13:55, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

All besides ki have only a few examples of those. We only know those individuals are able to do those things, not all humans. Magic, "wearwolfism", and living long could easily be special cases. We don't know either way, so that's why they should be left out. Becoming undead and returning from the dead have nothing to do with being human. Those involve grants from deities or magic. Nemu 20:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
We see humans doing something without the apparent aid of anything unnatural. Nothing else is needed to prove that humans are capable of thi. I can't even fathom why you think otherwise. 'How can we tell if some amazing feat is capable of being performed by a human being?' 'Well, a good test would be to see if it's ever been done by a human.' 'Well, golly, it has been done, several times, by humans. So it's clear that such a feat is capable of being done by human.'
Is that clearer? I just can't make this any simpler to understand: if something is done by a human, then it can be done by a human. I really, really, can't cut that dow aymore for you.
Again, no one is saying such acts are commonplace, just that such acts are possible for humans. --DesireCampbell 15:48, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Your argument makes no sense to me. How does one or three humans doing something mean all are capable of it? So if one human learns to regenerate, all can do it? To assume they're natural things that could happen to any person without any sort of rational is weird. One example does not automatically prove anything. If a scientific study came out with some huge descovery, but only tested four people, would you beleive it? How is this any different? Nemu 16:32, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
If one person can benchpress 860 lbs, and noone else can, does that mean that humans are incapable of that feat? No, by the very fact that a person has done it proves that humans are capable of such a feat.
" So if one human learns to regenerate, all can do it?"
YES! Unless he uses a method that affects him in some way to make him 'non-human', then "a human did it = humans can do it".
"To assume they're natural things that could happen to any person without any sort of rational is weird. "
To assume that any action of ability is 'unnatural' simply because only a few people have done so is, quite simply, wrong. If even one person has successfully done some 'strange feat', then it is absolute insanity to suggest that other people are incapble of it. To assume that any action must be specifically stated as natural is "Weird". How often do you go around saying what is, and is not, capable by humans?
"One example does not automatically prove anything. "
It proves that humans are capable of doing it. Why? Because humans did it! I can't understand how that isn't blatently clear to you. "How do we know humans can do it? Because humans can do it!!"
"If a scientific study came out with some huge descovery, but only tested four people, would you beleive it? How is this any different? "
If one person is shown to do something. Then I would believe that people can do it. The world-record for benchpress is 860 pounds. By your logic we cannot assume that such a feat is humanly possible. Does your line of thinking still make sense to you?
"How is this any different? "
Exactly. This is no different. If a human is reported and shown to be able to do something, then (by definition) such an act is humanly possible.
I'm begining to think you simply don't have a good enough grasp of the English language. That is the only explaination as to why you don't understand this. If a human does it, a human can do it.
I REPEAT: Whether or not such a feat is common, or easy to acheive, is not at issue here. Simply, and only, that such feats are possible. We know that these feats are possible, because we know humans have done thwm before. --DesireCampbell 17:41, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Benching a certain amount of weight it totally different than what we're talking about. That just has to do with obtaining a freakish amount of strength, which is something genetically possible. We have Roshi, Baba, Tao, Crane Guy, and Man-Wolf doing these specific things. We don't know if these are genetics, freak mutations or whatever.
They could be part of a bloodline thing like the Namekians. If it wasn't stated, you would assume all Namekians could create Dragon Balls, fight and heal even though only certain ones show these certain things. This could be the same for our select five. We don't know, so it should be left out. Nemu 18:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Basically, I'm saying that we know it's possible for a selct group. Just because said group can do it, doesn't mean everyone else can. Nemu 18:20, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Muten Roshi was born in the year 430, according to the official timeline, but we don't meet him until some 300 years later. As I recall, this was never definitively explained, though it would seem to be related to his mastery of the martial arts. And what about these other characters? Baba is Roshi's sister and a fortune teller who has dealings with the supernatural. The brothers Crane Hermit and Tao Pai Pai are also master martial artists. (Man-Wolf I would consider to be one of the anthropomorphic Earthlings, not a human per se.)
Real-life practitioners of the martial arts have shown that such training can provide the benefit of good health and longer-than-average lifespan. And just as with real-life martial arts, it is also clearly stated in Dragon Ball that anyone can use ki, as long as they have the the proper training (or incentive). Early on in DB, it was fairly common to see people using strange techniques and abilities. By the end of Z, the majority of people we see are quite plain and ordinary. The "hero of Earth" is a man no mightier than the sort of guys you see in real-life strongman competitions.
There was certainly nothing inhuman about Yamcha or Kuririn when we first meet them. One was a bandit and the other a monk. They reached heights of strength unheard of for a human only through their association with trainers like Roshi and Kaio, as well as battles against beings that were ordinarily far beyond human strength themselves. They did not become a "select group" until AFTER meeting each other, not before. Rather, it would appear that the knowledge to attain such feats have been lost to the ages, closely held by the masters and passed only to a lucky few.
Such as it is in real-life, where certain skills were passed on from master to apprentice, but eventually lost to history as technology replaced the craftsman's hands. Can you cobble a shoe? No, because the knowledge of how to do such a thing did not need to be passed from person to person once machines were created to automate the manufacturing. By the same token, could you duplicate Stone Henge, the Great Pyramids, or Machu Picchu? Such architectural marvels would be almost impossible to achieve, even with modern technology. Clearly, they are the work of humans, but the knowledge of how exactly they were done is lost.
So, where as it is specifically stated that only a certain bloodline of Namekians may create Dragon Balls, there is no evidence to deny the logical assertion that any human may be capable of achieving greatness, so to speak, even if not everyone does. At the very least, I would advise that we include the provision "certain notable humans have achieved ..." so there's no further misunderstanding. Son Goharotto 20:14, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
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