Talk:Earth-616

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Contents 1 Name of article 2 Alan Moore's answer 3 Alternate universes 4 You're All Wrong 5 1602 6 Dude, I thought.. 7 Far-fetched

[edit] Name of article

It's also been called "Earth 123488" and "the Prime Reality" (and of course there's the question as to why it's named after Earth...). Is there anything to say which is the most common/most accurate? User:Timrollpickering

Timrollpickering, please sign your comments. I have done so for you above. Anyway, the article is correctly named; Earth 616 is a far, far more common name than Earth 123488. "Prime Reality" doesn't have exactly the same, or as specific, a meaning. --Lowellian 21:58, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)

Oops, thought I had. I've not heard the 616 designation much - where has it been used long term? 123488 was in use a bit in the late 1980s, particularly in Avengers, whilst the "Prime Reality" was used a bit c1993-94. And I'm sure many other terms have cropped up - has anything been said that 616 is anything more than just another writer's own designation? Timrollpickering 22:03, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Try reading the article. Or, use Google: 3 hits for "Earth 123488"; 1900 hits for "Earth 616". --Lowellian 22:10, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Alan Moore's answer

I see you have undone the edit I made clarifying where Alan Moore got the number 616 from, stating you would like me to cite a source. My source is Alan Moore himself; his daughter Leah Moore and her partner John Reppion are online at http://johnreppion.proboards33.com/ I asked them if they could check with Leah's father to finally lay the debate to rest; they did, and he told them 616 "was just a random number of no significance chosen because people always seemed to be talking about "earth 2" or "earth 4" but never any higher numbers." If you don't want to believe me, feel free to go on their boards and ask them yourself. User:81.6.219.143

I assume you are talking about this edit [1] by User:82.133.101.56, who has a different IP address. You might consider logging in at Special:Userlogin; it's fast and easy and will make it easier to communicate on Wikipedia. Anyway, whether I believe you is irrelevant; the point is that such a claim cannot be unsourced (see Wikipedia:Cite sources), so could you please provide a direct link to the post? Thanks! —Lowellian (talk) 05:26, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

I don't know why the IP addresses are different, because both are me, on the same computer, using the same internet provider to log online. I find it interesting that I need to provide a source for the "claim", as the various theories espoused about where Alan Moore got the number are not sourced. Up until today, I could not provide a link to a post, as the information was provided in a private e-mail; however someone asked Leah Moore and John Reppion that same question today on their boards. You can read the answer there, confirming what I posted here: http://johnreppion.proboards33.com/index.cgi?board=Comics&action=display&num=1115772466 User:82.133.111.104

Okay, I have added the information to the page. The reason it is a good idea to provide a source in this instance is that the claim is that an authoritative source has stated something definitive about the subject. We don't want to put words in the mouth of an authoritative source. Keep contributing to Wikipedia! —Lowellian (talk) 15:34, May 12, 2005 (UTC)

You added the information, but have left the page inaccurate. John Reppion, who confirmed the number was randomly chosen on the aforementioned thread, is the husband of Leah Moore, Alan's daughter. http://uk.geocities.com/moore_reppion@btinternet.com/Lbiog.html

They asked him why he picked the number - he told them it was just a random number. The thread on their boards confirms that. Since Alan Moore himself does not do public appearances, nor does he post online, there is no more accurate and authoritive source available, but given their connection to Mr.Moore, there shouldn't need to be; unless someone wishes to doubt their word, there is no longer any uncertainty as to why Alan chose the number. User:84.12.61.102

I did not make clear the relationship between John Reppion and Alan Moore because I was unsure of it myself. Above you stated that Reppion was Leah's "partner", which could be interpreted as anything from casual significant other to spouse. In any case, User:SoM has added the information to the page that Reppion is Moore's son-in-law, so that issue should be settled. —Lowellian (talk) 18:54, May 13, 2005 (UTC)

"the issue should be settled" - well, not entirely, but I've given up hoping to make this entry accurate. The entry still says Alan Moore's reason for picking the number is uncertain, and then puts forward a number of fan speculations as to where he got the number from before mentioning as an afterthought, given less prominence than a bunch of unsubstantiated fan guesses, what Alan Moore himself said to his daughter on the matter (which was then recounted by his son-in-law). This isn't Leah Moore guessing why her father chose the number, or vaguely recalling what she thought was the reason years after the fact; this was her specifically asking him why he picked it only a couple of weeks ago. The fan theories have now been discredited, much as some people seem desperate to hang on to them; to now say Alan Moore's reasons for picking 616 is "uncertain" is to imply that either John Reppion or Alan Moore himself are lying, because they've supplied a fairly unequivocal, very "certain", answer to the question. The truly sad thing is that so many people and other sites rely on Wikipedia to be an accurate resource, which means the misinformation this entry currently maintains will continue to be propagated. User:81.6.240.115

The speculation belongs on the page for its historical importance: for twenty-something years, fans have been speculating on the meaning. Is that not historically significant? The geocentric model is rejected by virtually all modern scientists; however, it nevertheless has an article on Wikipedia because it is historically important. The plate tectonics article discusses the idea of continents plowing through ocean crust despite the fact that modern continental drift posits a different mechanism of continental plate movement. The Earth-616 page should state the facts clearly. These facts include first, that theories related to the Number of the Beast and the release of FF #1 were proposed for 20+ years, and secondly, that John Reppion issued a statement on the matter in 2005. Readers of this article can then evaluate the evidence for themselves. We have no reason to doubt Reppion's word, but writers have been known to be reluctant to reveal the reasons behind choices in their writing in the past, either because they consider the true meaning to be deeply personal or because they wish to avoid giving an explanation which would be offensive or uncomfortable to some person or group (in this case, those with Christian sensibilities might find the idea of the Number of the Beast being associated with the Marvel Universe uncomfortable). —Lowellian (talk) 02:01, May 18, 2005 (UTC)

Incidentally, I have changed the sentence "The reason Alan Moore chose to name the Marvel Earth '616' is uncertain" to "Since the name was first used, fans have put forth many theories on why Alan Moore chose to name the Marvel Earth '616'"; hope that helps. —Lowellian (talk) 02:07, May 18, 2005 (UTC)

For the record, before I comment further, I just want to say that I can live with the current version of the page, because we no longer have the "Alan Moore's reasons for choosing 616 are uncertain" comment, which gave weight to the fan theories over what Mr.Moore had said himself. Your last modification does indeed help. In answer to the rest of your points: Yes, the fan speculations could be considered historically important, much like the geocentric model but until you amended the page, it was akin to having a page on the Earth which went on at great length about the geocentric model, ratifying it, before mentioning as an afterthought "oh yes, some people think the Earth isn't at the centre of the universe". As to your comment "We have no reason to doubt Reppion's word", which you immediately follow with what you consider as a possible reason to doubt his (or Alan's) word, contradicting yourself, let's just consider why Alan Moore might deny a hidden meaning if it were there:

1. He's worried it might offend those with Christian sensibilities? But this is the same guy who had battles at the gates of Heaven in Swamp Thing, and lots of pagan mythology in Promethea, so I seriously doubt he cares one whit about what any religious group thinks of him.
2. He's worried it might upset Marvel by saying their universe is the "Number of the Beast"? I doubt a man who has made clear his intention never to work for Marvel again some two decades ago would care enough to deny it.
3. He's worried it might hurt sales of his books? He's planning on retiring, and has blocked reprintings of older work in the past on points of principle, so again, financial concerns about losing sales would seem to be of little concern to him.

Frankly, he has no reason whatsoever to lie about why he picked the number, and if he was "reluctant to reveal" some hidden meaning, the easiest way for him to do that would have been to simply refuse to comment. User:84.12.84.97

Actually, Alan Moore does refuse to comment, correct? As you stated earlier, "Since Alan Moore himself does not do public appearances, nor does he post online..." So we must rely on second-hand accounts of those close to him to learn what he thinks, and as the telephone game demonstrates, often secondhand accounts may feature some distortion, even when the players are trying their best to preserve the message.

Anyway, I'm okay with the revision by User:SoM, which divides the section up into a speculation and an answer section. I also changed more instances of "it is possible" to phrasing along the lines of "fans speculated that...". I hope the page is okay now. —Lowellian (talk) 22:01, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

"Actually, Alan Moore does refuse to comment" - well, no, he doesn't refuse to comment, he's just less accessible than many because he dislikes doing public appearances and isn't online; he still does interviews readily enough. It's just that up till now, no one thought to ask him this question; as soon as he was asked, he quite happily answered. As for the information being second-hand, if Comics International or Wizard Magazine had run this information as part of an interview with him, I doubt I'd have had such a hard time convincing anyone to amend this page, yet that is easily as second-hand (and probably more likely to contain errors) as this information from John Reppion and Leah Moore. A second-hand account may feature distortion, but there's unlikely to be much distortion that can creep into "616 is a random number".

However, this debate aside, I too am okay with the current version of the page. User:195.149.28.23

[edit] Alternate universes

Official Handbook to the Marvel Universe: Alternate Universes provides a lot of information and numberings. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.213.92.196 (talk • contribs) 05:03, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] You're All Wrong

You're All Wrong, Really. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.167.58.37 (talk • contribs) 03:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1602

Uatu didn't mistakenly refer to it as 616, there was an event that was affecting earth 616 into that state, at the end of the series that new universe was transformed into a new earth of its own.

This is indeed true. Have altered page so. Morwen - Talk 14:40, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dude, I thought..

I heard somewhere that it was because at the time Marvel had precisely 616 superheroes. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.72.21.221 (talk) 23:28, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Far-fetched

This seems so far-fetched that I'm fairly certain it'll never be substantiated:

For many years, the headquarters of DC Comics was located at 666 Fifth Avenue in New York City. Thus, the name could be a subtle joke that the DC Universe was Earth-666 while the Marvel Universe was Earth-616.

How long does it remain as an uncited statement before it's removed?

(Of course, if someone can cite an article, interview, or text that substantiates the point, I'll withdraw my objection to it.)--Galliaz 11:52, 26 February 2007 (UTC)