Talk:Eagle Scout (Boy Scouts of America)/Archive 2

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name

What's the purpose of the word "rank" in the title? The rank is called "Eagle Scout", not "Eagle Scout rank". — Dan | talk 23:20, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

To distinguish Eagle Scout as used here from a person who is an Eagle Scout, the Eagle Scout badge and medal, etc. Rlevse 23:31, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Originally, there were separate articles for each rank. After combining the other articles, rank got left in the Eagle Scout article. It's been moved now. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:29, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

GA to FA

  • Eagle Scout (Boy Scouts of America) was made a Good Article. Rlevse thinks it has FA potential.
  • Rebelguys2 doesn't think it's a very well-written article at all, but it is well cited. These were some of his other comments:
    • The main problem is that the text is extremely choppy.
    • There's really not that much content in there; we should expand the article so that it's comprehensive
      • expand the history
      • perhaps add more data about how to obtain the rank
      • add a section about the Eagle Scout rank and how it relates to how it's perceived by the public, in pop culture, in history, etc.)
      • rewrite it so it's not just a long list.

What then do we need to do next? --evrik 21:11, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

  • Actually, I agree with Rebelguys2...it has the potential, but it needs work first. Rlevse 21:16, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
    • The next step is to work on one of Rebelguys2's suggestions one at a time. Rlevse 21:17, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
      • The grammar and choppiness of this article are easy to fix. I think the main problem will still be comprehensiveness...I recommend sending this article to Wikipedia:Peer review soon, to get new sets of non-Scouting-affilitated eyes give some suggestions of what's missing to the general reader. — Rebelguys2 talk 17:53, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
      • Great idea. Let's plan on that by the end of the week. Rlevse 20:36, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Evolution of the Eagle Scout Badge

It appears that much of this section (prior to my last edits) is copied from Dr Murray's The Eagle Badge page. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:20, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

The section from "The types and years of the badges are" are and a footnote crediting the website as such (#15). Perhaps each type should also be credited. Any summarization or re-write of the information would have a look of outright plagiarism. So the question becomes…

  • Should the article include information on the changes in the patch?
  • If so, do we continue using the work and crediting Dr. Murray or do we move try to re-phrase and summarize his work with the four other sites that describe the patch through the years?
  • If not, does this section stand alone without the describing the changes and rely on the scans?

I have also written to Dr. Murray requesting permission to use several scans of his Eagle Medals for this article and will ask his assistance to update this article.--dep369 17:41, 22 May 2006 (UTC)Dep369

  • I think if we credit him (which we already did), that would suffice for crediting purposes. If we get permission for the medals, that'd be great. I like the way Gadget850 left the wording as of this moment. Rlevse 17:50, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
  • We still have to fix the text. Before I started to fiddle with it, most of it was copied directly, and I only made a few changes. Please look at WP:CP and WP:NPS. There is more room for improvement in this section. I'm still wiped out from 4 days of Wood Badge staff, so I'm going to let it lay for now (I was just making too many typos). --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Hot tub! After reflection (and a long soak), the text of this section MUST be deleted and replaced with text that is not in violation. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 23:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
  • I put a line with a ref to a footnote. However, I am not sure this is the best way to do this. Perhaps we should just put it in the reference section OR if we get his permission, it be okay to use. I think it'd be hard to rewrite what he wrote and do justice to the badge variations. Rlevse 01:49, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
  • I took a stab at it- let me know what you think. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:46, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
    • I like it. Rlevse 13:57, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I think this closes this issue. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:26, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Improvements

Lead-in:

  • Needs a bit more polish. Wimvandorst worked this
Needs more work. Not sure about the title of the new section. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
  • "only Boy Scout rank held for life." This is nagging me. If someone slapped a cite tag on it, I couldn't answer for it. reworded to worn on adult uniform and added uniform manual ref
Of course- it has the knot for adults! --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

History:

  • When did Eagle go from a merit badge to a rank? added
  • When did the badge move from the sash to the pocket?
Interesting. My 3rd edition handbook (1933) has Eagle as a rank, but it's still in the merit badge section. The illustration of the uniform shows Star and Life on the bottom of the merit badge sash and Life on the left pocket. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:06, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, very interesting; I've left a question on this on the forum at USScouts. When we get this answer, I think we should submit this for peer review, then later FAC. Rlevse 11:47, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Badge introduced in 1924. added
  • Palms in 1927. added
  • Square knot in 1947. added

Insignia

  • Polish

Evolution

  • Re-write to clean up copyvio issues.
  • Fold beginning paragraphs into the types.
  • Move wear on sash to history.
  • The Type 1 shown does not have a Good Turn knot, contrary to the text. However, [[1]] does show a T1 with knot. figured it out

--Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:18, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

  • Section name: How about History of the Eagle Scout badge. This would match other Scouting article titles.
    • Then what about badge vs rank? Rlevse 18:46, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm proposing a change of the section name from Evolution of the Eagle Scout Badge to History of the Eagle Scout badge. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:50, 23 May 2006 (UTC) someone changed it already --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:27, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


Could the wide badges picture be done differently, e.g., two rows of four badges? Then it'll fit much better on the average screen. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC).

Good idea. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:53, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
It's a bit shorter now that I merged the type 8 series. What do you think? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Better although not complete yet. I split the table to show what I mean, which comes out better in narrow windows (or large print). Perhaps a completely different layout altogether, e.g., separate pictures all right aligned? Give it a try if you feel like it. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:01, 23 May 2006 (UTC).

Copyright issues

And another thing is that the text of the Type 1 to 8 is a literal copy of Ref-12 (Craig Murray's website). This is probably a blatant copyright infringement, isn't it? Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:53, 22 May 2006 (UTC).
Fraid so, except for some edits I made before I noticed. See the section above. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:53, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

If you spent anytime reading the pages by Dr. Murray you would soon see 1. No Copyright on the text, only the scans by a third party. 2. The front page of the Eagle Badge states "It is my intention to bring you a little history about early scout badges. This is research by me and others who have spent a great deal of time learning about and categorizing these early scout badges. It is my hope that what you learn from these pages, you will pass on to others for the greater enjoyment of scouting. I welcome any questions, so please feel free to e-mail me." It encourages others to "spread the word". Dr Murray has been contacted and I will let everyone know of his thoughts on this matter.--dep369 02:16, 23 May 2006 (UTC)Dep369

Lack of a copyright statement is not enough. To use text from another source like this, there must be an explicit statement of use. In addition, the page does note "The information about the badges was obtained from A Comprehensive Guide to the EAGLE SCOUT AWARD by Terry Grove." We have no idea how much text was used from the Grove source. Please: let's just get past this and do it in our OWN words. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:06, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the Type 1 image. If you read the text, it states that the first patches issued for the World Jamboree contingent was the only one of the TYPE 1 Patches to have the "Good Turn" knot. Hence all other Type 1 patches would not have the knot. If you look at the scans om Dr. Murray's site, you will notice this also. I did not include a scan of every subtype, but tried to keep it simple. Aside from the few badges issued to the Jamboree contingent, everyone else was awarded the patch that is shown. Maybe it's time for everyone to read everything before jumping to conclusions.--dep369 02:31, 23 May 2006 (UTC)Dep369

I finally figured that out after looking at the list of sub-types. That link wasn't real obvious at first. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:06, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Issue resolved --Gadget850 ( Ed) 10:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

ebay

We made it to ebay! Take a look at items 7768944704 and 7769471125! --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:45, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Improvements (2)

  • The lead-in got chopped and needs work. did minor work
  • The "everday life" section needs work, starting with the title. combined with lead
    • did some tweaking myself- much better --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:27, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Needs a reference to Eagle Scouts in pop culture, perhaps drawing from Scouting in popular culture made direct link in See also section
  • Photos: Eagle ceremony; presentation kit
  • History of medals to match the badge history this can come at a later time--Ed; done, didn't see your comment, need photos with approval, which I asked for--Rlevse
Looks good. I think it should be simplified to match the badge history.
I reorged it by manufacturer, so that the names were not repeated on every line. I then cleaned it up to make it match the badge history in style. At least I now know what "925" means.

--Gadget850 ( Ed) 12:38, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

  • I've been thinking that the badge and medal history really pulls the focus away from the subject proper. Perhaps this should be split to History of Eagle Scout insignia. Thoughts? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:53, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
    • Some of the Eagle Insignia only mentioned here: hat pin, ribbon, knot, father's pin, mother's pin, mentor pin, lapel pin. Then there's a bazillion other bits of memorabilia produced over the years. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 12:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
  • If so, why don't we set up a new article dedicated to the history of all the rank and postion patches? I have patches for most types and probably can have other contribute to the cause. With that said, should the notable eagle list be merged with this article? It would be nice to name some great American's that received their Eagle badge, like President Ford and Astronaut Neil Armstrong, Baseball Player Hank Aaron, Director Steven Spielberg and Sam Walton of the Wal*Mart fame. Your thoughts.

--dep369 16:32, 27 May 2006 (UTC)Dep369

    • I've been thinking that too Gadget850. I also feel put the notalbe Eagle list would cause the same problem, so it should remain separate. At most, I'd only mention a very few of the most famous Eagles, with a link to the main list, which is too big too merge anyway. Rlevse 18:56, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
      • I think that we should just leave a link to the list of Eagle Scouts – it's extremely long, which is justification for giving it it's own article. At the same time, mentioning just a handful of Eagles would likely force someone to cry that the article is biased, since we'll be keeping some names and leaving out others. As a side note – the list of Eagle Scouts notes that Hank Aaron is not an Eagle.
      • I really don't mind either way about the history, as I think it really fleshes out this article at the moment and isn't overbearing like a list of notable Eagles would be. At the same time, the order of sections seems a little random, so I'm going to flip the Insignia section with the opportunities section, so that the Insignia section immediately segues into information about the medal and patch.
      • Finally, I've been thinking about pruning the Similar Awards section; in particular, the list of awards in other BSA programs. Is the Arrow of Light really comparable to Eagle Scout? I haven't heard of anyone really thinking that. At the same time, the list is really sparse – I'm sure we could draw a parallel to the highest award in every Scouting organization in the world. — Rebelguys2 talk 19:45, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
        • Considering that Arrow of Light, Eagle Scout, Silver and Quartermaster are the only current youth program knots that adults can wear, then I would consider them to be comparable. I think Wood Badge might not belong here though. I've added every similar non-BSA award that I can find. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:19, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I replaced the image in the table in the lead, Image:BSA eagle.jpg, with Image:Ctf3.jpg, which Rlevse recently uploaded. Revert me if I'm wrong; I'm going from his edits to the table that it's the most recent version. Is Image:BSA eagle.jpg going to be useful as another medal version? — Rebelguys2 talk 19:54, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

    • THe image you replaced would be useful as a medal version if we can figure out which one it is. Rlevse 21:12, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Eagle Scout outside Boy Scouting

At lease half the text is about the Eagle in Scouting. This needs a better name. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:59, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Apparently you missed the details, so I agree that it needs a better name: the whole text is about the Eagle Scout outside BOY Scouting. This 'boy' word was inserted intentionally. How about things like:
  • Eagle Scout beyond boyhood
  • Eagle Scout in later life
  • Eagle Scout in adult life
Met vriendelijke groeten, Wim van Dorst (Talk) 10:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC).

Pruning of the lead text

It is my perception that the lead text should define and summarize. The previous text did IMHO do that well. The pruning of the lead text gives me the impression of a downgrading edit without purpose. Would you please explain the edit? Wim van Dorst (Talk) 10:24, 31 May 2006 (UTC).

  • You are going to have to define "previous", as there have been a number of edits lately. Statements with "weasle words" were removed. My last edit as of yesterday was to remove the reference to Palms and wear of the medal and badge. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 12:36, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm writing of the edit that removes the reference to Palsm and to the wear of the medal and badge. The version before that was of my own hand. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:35, 1 June 2006 (UTC).
  • Ah: so many changes in the last week.
<opinion mode> The badge and the medal are NOT the Eagle Scout. The lead-in should be a quick overview of the subject, and these are not the core. Indeed, the image at the top should be of an Eagle Scout Court of Honor or of a service project in action (I've been looking through my archives). The lead-in does need at least one more sentence, but I have not been able to visualize it.</opinion mode> --Gadget850 ( Ed) 01:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
But also note Featured Article criteria specify the intro should be an overview of the whole article. I suggest we leave the medal and patch in, put something in the intro about it, and see what happens when we submit for FA. Aside from that, I also agree the intro needs 1-2 more sentences but haven't come up with anything good yet. Everyone feel free to take a try at it. Rlevse 01:46, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Aha, Ed I see your point. As Rlevse points out, this article is mostly about the rank or award of Eagle Scout (with the requirements and insignia that come with it, and much less about the boy or person Eagle Scout. It would make an interesting section, though, probably just before 'After becoming an Eagle Scout', indicating what makes a boy to stand out and why he does the things you must do for becoming an Eagle Scout. Tricky, though, as that would definitely incur a lot of weasle words and very difficult NPOV discussion. Personally, I feel that this encyclopedic article must just stick to the hard facts, and the palms (it redirects here) and other insignia are a significant part of that. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 07:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC).
  • Thus my use of <opinion>. I have a number of other opinons on Eagle Scout, but they don't belong here. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Added the badge and medal: thoughts? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:12, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I like it. I still think 1-2 sentences more would be good, but again, I'm having trouble coming up with something good.Rlevse 13:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Better, but not there yet. I'll give it another try. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 19:55, 3 June 2006 (UTC).

So, I redid it the opening text. My intention is as follows:

  • First a defining sentence: rank as well as boy
  • Then putting the picture in the US society: since 1911 over 1.5M Eagle Scouts. This whole paragraph is about the Scout, and not the badge and medal, which I'm intending to be facilitating Ed's opinion (I agree with him)
  • Following a new paragraph about requirements and insignia, including Palms (they're defined in this article so must be in)

How about that? This is IMHO a balanced intro-text, so I would appreciate further changes to be supported by a good explanation here. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:15, 3 June 2006 (UTC).

I really like the intro now. I think we should go to FAC when I have the medal photos done, which should be in a few days. Rlevse 15:54, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Did you forget to add merit badge requirements for palms. As stated "Additional recognition can be awarded with Eagle Palms for completing tenure and leadership requirements" one would think that staying in Scouting and being a leader is all you have to do, where there is actual work that had to be done to recieve the additional honors. Just a thought.--dep369 16:00, 4 June 2006 (UTC)Dep369
Good point, I just added it. Rlevse 17:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I reworded the first sentence again, to even better summarize and define. The title of the article is Eagle Scout, and therefore I followed the line of Ed's opinion further to explicitly word the phrase about the Boy Scout and not the the rank. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC).

Medal Photos

A Scouting buddy of mine here in my local area has a full set of Eagle medals I can scan and use to complete our medal graphics--just as the patch graphics are complete. My suggestion is that when I complete that (expect 1 week or less), and assuming we're not working any major article issues, that we take this article off peer review and submit for FAC. Rlevse 13:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

  • Cool! Any more thoughts on splitting this off? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:56, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Hmm. I think we should leave the medals and patches in and see what is said about it during FAC.Rlevse 15:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
  • BTW: I broke down and ordered the Terry Grove book from Amazon. Should have it in a few days. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 15:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I see that the medals picture collection is complete. That is good, but the variety between them is very minimal: to an untrained eye they are effectively nearly all exactly the same, unlike the badges where even an ordinary interested reader can spot the obvious changes. Although it is worthwhile to have a complete collection somewhere, could a smaller number of pictures be considered for this article, e.g., one per producer? Perhaps a medal dedicated article could give all the pictures and details? Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC).

And on a more technical note: the 9-pic wide table is too wide to fit even on my full screen browser window, inducing unwanted horizontal scrolling. And normally I don't even use full screen windows, and/or use a well readable (larger than standard MSIE I guess) fonts, so that even the 8-pic wide table of badges is too wide. That was the reason I split the badges table into two: if they do not fit next to eachother the browser will display the above eachother. I would think we'll have to give the picture presentations of medals and badges some serious thought. Please comment. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC).

Good points. I'll mull this over. Rlevse 22:05, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I just received the Grove book from an Amazon seller. At 182 pages, I've just skimmed through this, but the mass of information and detail is astounding. Per the preface, this is the last version- the next volume will cover from 2000 on; so if you want one, make sure it's the 20th Century Edition. I'll have to do a mini-review later. The Amazon feedback page is probably a good place for that. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 23:56, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

This book is amazing. It starts off with a history (nothing really new by now) including a breakdown of requirement changes. It lists the first nine Eagles and their merit badges earned, including a 33 year-old Scoutmaster and four of his Scouts. Then we have history of the medals, the badges, hat pins, boxes, presentation kits, wallet cards, certificates and presidential letters and more. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 12:55, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
User:Rebelguys2 is an Eagle Scout and superb copyeditor. If it weren't for him, my History of merit badges (Boy Scouts of America) article would not have made FA. He says he'll give this Eagle Scout article a good copyedit. Let's see where we're at after he's done. Rlevse 13:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
There's a few things that I found a little unclear while wading through the article. I'm pretty sure I know what they all refer to, but I'd rather someone with a little more knowledge make the actual changes.
  • In 1 History, we should explain what a gold eagle "device" is.
  • In 2.1 Development, is there a better term we can use than "super" merit badge?
  • Further in 2.1 Development, the meaning of, "to 16 of the 21," is a little hazy.
  • In the inter-wiki list, there's a link to what I'm assuming is a Dutch article, nl:Kroonverkenner. It doesn't look like an article about the BSA's Eagle Scout, but an equivalent Dutch rank. Therefore, this one should go, while the Hebrew one looks good. Can anyone clear this up before it's removed? — Rebelguys2 talk 00:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Worked 1 History and 2.1 Development 16 to 21. For the "super" merit badge, that is what was used in the Scouting magazine article and I can't think of another way to word it yet. For inter-wiki, I ask Wimvandorst to work on that one. Rlevse 01:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Indeed, the NL:kroonverkenner is the Dutch variant of the Eagle Scout. If someone could move it from interwiki to 'see also' that's fine with me, but I technically don't know how. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 16:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC).
  • I suppose we could add it to the equivalent list- what does kroonverkenner mean in English? (I'm guessing 'kroon' is 'crown'). --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
It's already in the equivalent list, but without a link. As far as I know, you can't do a regular wiki link to an interwiki on an article page, just on talk pages--I don't understand why. WIM: Since it's short, could you translate it into English-and maybe expand a little, create the article on en wiki, and put it in the "Scouting by country" category? Then we can easily put it into the equivalent section as a link.Rlevse 17:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)...another reason to do it this way is people often object to FACs with foreign language links. Rlevse 17:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Dutch link is solved here. But the overwide picture tables are still there... Wim van Dorst (Talk) 22:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC).

  • I think that's it for major stuff except we need to decide what to do with the images in the medal and patch section. I'd like to at least figure out how to get the label and image lined up. Wim suggested groups of four for lower resolutions, but if they float, it'll misalign on higher resolutions. Rlevse 22:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Yep, I vote for working on the layout of medals and patches and then going for FAC. Wim's idea of groups of 4 patches and 1 image per medal company may be the way to go. Seventeen medal images can be a bit overwhelming. I also feel the those sections don't warrant a separate article. PLEASE FEEL FREE TO USE MY SANDBOX for layout experiments. I've copied the sections there. Rlevse 23:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • I got the lines in the tables straight. I'm ok with putting it for FAC now if the other users are. If there is some other bit of info you'd like in the article, please add it soon. Rlevse 13:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
    • How would it look if you split the tables by manufacturer?
    • I have to agree with a comment made earlier: these look very similar; especially when compared to the badge section. This is not intended for the serious collector, so would it be better to show only samples with major differences? Perhaps a collage or blowup with major changes.

--Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

      • There are 5 manufacturers, so there'd be 5 images, all in one row. To make the narrative match the images, a rewrite would be required. Then what would we do with the 12 unused images? I think the badge section is just fine. It's only the medals we need to tweak. Rlevse 16:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)...Going this route, the sample Foley and Clust medals are almost identical, the final group could go to 4. Rlevse 16:43, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I know it hurts, but I did it: I simply reduced the medals table to just the one for each producer (five makes it stand out from the two foursomes for the badges. I retained the producers' names to make the distinction, and I just took a nice looking one from the producers with several, albeit I intentionally took CFJ3 as it being the really current one. And it think the article FAC-ready now too. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 19:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC).

  • I want to try to center the tables for medal and badge. Gadget is working on an alternate write up for the medals too....later on...got them centered using html blank tables. Waiting on possible write up change. Rlevse 22:08, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I wondered if you were still watching my sandbox :-). What do you think? I believe Murray's site is based on an older version of the Grove book, thus I going with Grove on some details. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
      • I like it. I think if you make the CTF section like the rest of it, it will be fine. Rlevse 22:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Hey- I had to do some work today! I kept getting interrupted this afternoon, so I took it to the sandbox. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 23:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Done. Guys- have at it! --Gadget850 ( Ed) 00:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  • The new prose, non-list version is a very good improvement. That's for keeping. The centering of the tables doesn't come out optimally, though, so that needs further tweaking. Personally, I prefer left alignment, and notably the combined badges box Rlevse made yesterday or so, but is seems to have been changed for table centering again? Wim van Dorst (Talk) 07:16, 15 June 2006 (UTC).
  • Thanks. As a list it was good, but it just didn't work as prose. I'm going to work the badge section as well. Since these are major re-writes, I'm doing them in my sandbox then moving them over. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:04, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

done --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:43, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Notable or cruft?

  • The 4th Eagle was a 31 year-old scoutmaster, followed by four of his Scouts.
  • BSA quietly dropped the signature of the President of the US from 1999 to 2002 on Eagle certificates.

--Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

What version was that in? I can't find it. Right now, I'd say cruft for the 4th Eagle and interesting for the Pres' sig (I didn't know they'd dropped it for awhile). Rlevse 13:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

They dropped the signature after Eagle Scouts complained they didn't want Bill Clinton's signature on their certificates because of the Monica thing.

Check this news article out:http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=13204

Also from this site (http://members.aol.com/coffeeweb/LO/faq16.htm) I found this to be interesting:

The Medal and badge legally, are the property of the Boy Scouts of America and the BSA, through a local Council, can ask for those items back at any time. Have they? Only in extreme cases dealing with a massive child abuse or other unusual reasons. In most cases, if the Badge belongs to you, you may do whatever it is you would like with it. --dep369 14:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)--dep369 13:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)Dep369--dep369 14:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)Dep369

    • EAGLE ADULTS-BSA passed a rule change in 1952 to end adults becoming Eagles, but many councils kept allowing it anyway, so in 1965 they put in the troop job requirement, putting an end to troop scouts becoming Eagles. Until 1971 or so, Explorers could get Eagle until they were 21. Then the adult Eagle saga was over for once and for all. Rlevse 02:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
  • The Grove book has a section on the history of the wallet cards and the certificates. It notes that the signature was quietly dropped. It speculates that this was in response to the Clinton issues, and the rumour that Eagle Scouts were returning their certificates to National. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I guess that wasn't a rumour.
I'd say the 4th Eagle being an adult is notable, especially since it has been quite some time since adults were allowed to earn ranks in the BSA. --Habap 15:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
We already mention elsewhere that adults could earn the award and during what years. Rlevse 15:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Perhap, since we mention that 8 of the first 9 eagles did not get star or life we could mention that one of the nine was an adult. (End of first Paragraph)Just a thought. --dep369 22:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)Dep369
  • The fourth Eagle Scout was Sidney Clapp of West Shokan, NY. Clapp, a 31 year-old scoutmaster was followed by four of the Scouts from his troop. The Eagle Scout badge issued to Clapp was a Foley with a "double drop ribbon"– the ribbon was folded through the scroll and dropped behind and below the eagle pendant and was cut in a swallowtail. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 00:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Patch/badge/emblem

Patch is a generic term. Per the Language of Scouting:

badge
Usually lowercase when referred to badges that Scouts can earn: "Webelos activity badge," "Wolf badge," "Boy Scout badge," "merit badge"; however, "Wood Badge."
emblem
Do not capitalize: jamboree emblem, compass points emblem, Trained Leader emblem, and all of the religious emblems (God and Me emblem, Alpha Omega emblem).

BSA documents are consistent: ranks are badges. Other patches such as leadership are emblems. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

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