User talk:Dylanwhs

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This user is a speaker of Hakka

[edit] Welcome

Hi, my name's Dylan, and if you've any messages about my articles or edits of articles, please don't hesitate to post them here.

Click here to find out what I've been up to User:Dylanwhs in Wikipedia, and here_(1) or here_(2) are places I reside in, when I'm elsewhere on the WWW.

[edit] Wikipedia

I've virtually stopped editing here, which is with great sadnessas my time is now taken up with personal and family matters, I am unable to fulfil requests by other wikipedians. It has been a pleasure though to help out, and I wish everyone well for 2006 Dylanwhs 00:25, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pluralization

Please take a look at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (pluralization). Since I am able to say "He performed a Hakka hill song", it should be in singular form. It should also not be capitalized since, as you said, there is more than one. --Jia ng 21:42, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Start w/ a definition

You should probably start your articles with a comprehensive definition. For example:

Shataukok (traditional Chinese: 沙頭角; simplified Chinese: 沙头角; pinyin: Shatoujiao) is found in the north eastern corner of Hong Kong Special Administrative Region.

is what? please insert something: "is [a bird? dog? person? place?] found..."

XiaoZhuan (小篆) was originally a work by Li Si during the reign of the First Emperor of China, Qin Shi Huangdi.

was what? It looks like a type of script, only inferred from the second paragraph. It would help to state it explicitly in the first sentence.

--Jia ng 01:50, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Nanshu

Just to say hello. Are you the guy who debeted the origin of Chinese characters with SG Jung at s.c.k? I was a participant. Keep great contributions about writing systems! --Nanshu 02:15, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hi, thanks, and yeah, that was me (I was at sci.lang, and had it never been cross posted, I wouldn't've known about it...). It kinda got bogged down at the end, but, the good thing is, it got me delving about for Shang Oracle Bone script literature, and last summer, I bought some books on it in Hong Kong. Can't be a bad thing if you learn something at the end of the day!

--Dylanwhs 08:39, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Greetings

I remember visiting your webpage on Kana's Chinese derivation 3 or 4 years ago. For some reason your website's name "Sapienti" has stuck in my mind all these years. The Web is a small place, huh? :-) Anyway, you're doing a great job here. Keep it up! --Menchi 06:04, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hi Menchi,

Thanks. The WWW is a cosy place, and you bump into folks you don't expect, and make good friends. Its a pleasure to contribute to Wikipedia, and it'll probably outlive my personal sites. The research that goes into some articles makes it all worthwhile because you learn at the same time as you make your notes, then rewrite it succinctly again in terms of what you understand, and hope new readers find it useful. Occasionally, a thank you email pops through, and you beam. That's the web author's delight.

Dylanwhs 06:35, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese language navigation box

Hi Dylan, here's the box: Template:Chinese language

-- ran 12:04, May 19, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Ran,Dylanwhs 21:25, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Tone name

I've moved Tone Name and Tone Contour to tone name and tone contour respectively. The fact that a word is in a article title is not a reason to capitalize it; see Wikipedia:Manual of Style. Michael Hardy 20:47, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The article titled seal script, used lower-case letters in that phrase, but capitals in the article title. Therefore I moved it. In others, like bronzeware script, I was unsure whether it was a proper name or not, but someone had already moved that one. But those articles use lots of incorrect capitals in section headings and such, so that suggests they should be corrected in the same way (see Wikipedia:Manual of Style). Michael Hardy 20:57, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] yi 夷

Hello. I wrote a bit about the character 夷 at Talk:Korea#Bowmen?. You may be interested. You noticed lots of tricks on Korean reinterpretation of ancient Chinese literature, but I think you missed this point.

An increasing number of South Korean youngsters, who cannot even write their own country's name in Chinese characters, believe such absurd ideas. The Dongyi fantasy can be found in South Korea's official site [1]. Another example is Chiyou. South Korea's football team supporters club named "Red Devil" uses Chiyou as its mascot [2]. I hope you will help prevent these "theories" from spreading in Wikipedia. --Nanshu 12:27, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the 'heads up'. I've read your comments. I also agree that the use of Dongyi in the literature from the late Zhou to Han and beyond, is a late usage for a peoples. In oracle bone inscriptions, the character yi is also found, however, I am not sure of it's exact usage. I bought the Jiaguwen Zidian a couple of weeks ago, and it's currently shipped back home. I won't be back until later this week, and will be a bit busy.

I cannot read Korean, so all the things I've responded to are via Chinese and English language sources. -- Dylanwhs 23:37, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You've already pointed out the character having a 'body/corpse' radical in earlier inscriptions. It is also a variant character for 'ren2' benevolance. See Kangxi. I think when Confucious mentions the Yi, the character may actually be referring to benevolance in the people, rather than the yi being a people are worthy of praise. It's somewhere in Analects, can't remember off hand. Chapter 17 right at the end seems to ring a bell, or one of the chapters, right at the end IIRC. -- Dylanwhs 15:49, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I took a look at Jiaguwen Zidian. The item of yi 夷 simply say, "卜辭夷字作**. ≪説文≫ *snip* Look at the entry of 尸." And the entry of shi 尸 states, 夷人多爲蹲居與中原之跪坐啟處不同, 故稱之爲**尸人. 尸復假夷爲之, 故蹲踞之夷, 或作跠, [尸/夷]廣雅釋詁三, 而尸則借爲屍.

And I also looked up yi at Kangxi Dictionary. Do you mean [尸/二]? --Nanshu 14:04, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm back home again and have access to all my dictionaries. The yi 夷 character is a variant for ren 仁 ('humanity'). In Confucious' Analects, 18.1, he refers to Weizi, Bigan and Jizi. 微子走之,箕子為之奴,比干諫而死.孔子曰:殷有三仁焉. These are the three "Ren/humane" people of the Shang Dynasty. SJ once pointed out this reference, and I suspect the ren/yi character may have something to do with the linkage of Yi and Shang peoples in some way, in Korean reinterpretation of history. -- Dylanwhs 23:37, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

BTW, I was delving into this after the first foray in sci.lang on a related topic (hehe). One of the claims was Korean culture derived from Shang, who created Chinese characters. The Shang link is via Jizi or Kija and his descendents. On line, you can find several versions of the genealogy for Jizi's descendants. The number of years of this socalled Kija dynasty is exactly 929 years, ending with the entry of Wiman (WeiMan) in 194BC from began his reign in the reign of the second Han emperor's inaugural year. The reign lengths of each ruler of Kija Chosen is recorded, including the sexagenary cycle dates. This latter dating scheme is said to be a later method of dating, and there were some revisions during the Han in the 60 year count, I believe. What's suspicious is the fact that if you add 928 to 194, you get 1122 (since the year 194BC is also the last year also of the 929 year Kija chosen dynasty. So, conveniently 1122BC the year at which Zhou defeats Shang, and the fleeing of Kijia/Jizi to Chosen to set up his kingdom.

What's more, you need to read the histories to find out that it wasn't until the third year of the first Zhou king's reign that Jizi was summoned and asked if he wanted to join in the governance of the people, to which he declined. It's said he took 5000 people with him.

Moreover, the source of such histories is the Shijing, a book written in the Han dynasty. And no where will you find reign lengths of the first few Zhou high kings. In fact, most Chinese sources you can reference usually have a concrete dating which begins in 841 BC.

Recently, with the aid of the Bamboo Annals and other historical documentation, in particular astronomical portents contained therein, people such as Nivenen has come up with a more plausible date which revolves around 1040 - 1046 BC as being the Shang-Zhou boundary. These are based upon the juxtapositioning of Jupiter, in the extract with reference to something called "quail fire".

So, the dating scheme of Jizi's reign is bogus on two counts, (i) the astronomical data doesn't fit, and (2) the beginning of the reign of Jizi Chosen occurs before he has been summoned and excused by the Zhou King.

Most historical written evidence from Korea is unavailable. SJ raised this carefully in the discussions. From what I've read, the oldest Korean history books extant today date from the 10th to the present centuries AD. Most of which are heavily influenced in the style of the Chinese Han work Shiji.

I consider them not useful in determining a native Korean history, because of these leanings.

I wish to mention is the Shang often battled against the "Yi" whoever they are. It appears in oracular inscriptions from Anyang. Apparently the last Shang King, DiZhou lead a number of campaigns to the east against the Yi and other inhabitants of the Huai valley areas. Thus I do not believe that the Yi are in anyway closely related to the Dongyi of Korean ancestry. I have mentioned on usenet's sci.lang that I believe the Shang are speakers of a Sinitic language. A far eastern outpost of Sinitic speakers, that is.

On looking into the bird myths (purportedly associated with Koreans mythical ancestry, well, all three of the old dynasties, the Xia, the Shang and the Zhou all mention events including either birds or birds eggs.

And the bird in the sun myth of why the character for day in ancient inscriptions has a dot is also wishful thinking. The character for moon has one vertical line not touching the crescent outer wrapper in Shang oracle bone inscriptions. Nothing is made of this in their arguments. -- Dylanwhs 16:17, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I created the article of Jizi. I hope you expand this.

What I know about Jizi is already mentioned therein, and I don't think I can expand upon it much more. -- Dylanwhs 23:37, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think that to make things straight, historical sources should be arranged in order of their dates rathar than those of events they explain. As for Jizi, examine 尚書大傳 and 史記 first, then 漢書, and then 魏略 by 魚豢 (quoted by other documents) and 三國志. It is interesting that newer sources contain more detailed accounts. By this stage, king 否 and his son 準 were treated as descendants of Jizi but there were no record about monarchs between Jizi and 否.

Yes, I read that the earliest histories such as Shiji does not contain the length of the reigns of the first few rulers of the Zhou dynasty. It was through reading of the Bamboo Annals and other historical sources that various dates have been put forward and favoured from time to time. Post Sima Qian sources tend to give more precise dates, and these are no doubt 'invented' by the scholars of the day. However, the closest we come to the exact reign length of the Western Zhou, is indirect, via the histories of the Lu Kingdom, the first ruler of that state being the son of Zhou Gong Dan, called Boqian and his heirs.

With regard to Jizi, he is only mentioned a few times in Shiji. I've read that he is then resurrected in later dynasties as a sino-centric historical figure who goes to Chaoxian/Chosen, whom some people have identified as a city state rather than some far flung Korean peninsula place. Note that after the first few years of Zhou, the states of Qi, and Yan were created, which are north of the old Shang territory, corresponding to modern Beijing to Helongjiang, I reckon. How does Jizi pass through uncommented via these states? I think the Jizi fantasy is thus a myth. -- Dylanwhs 23:37, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

BTW, grand kitsches were created during the Korean Joseon Dynasty (1392-1910). For example, the complete genealogy of the so-called Gija Joseon appeared. They are not useful at all for determining ancient history, but useful to see what Korean intellectuals of the era thought. For more information, see Kishi Chōsen densetsu kō 箕子朝鮮傳説考 by Imanishi Ryū 今西龍. --Nanshu 14:04, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I downloaded some scans from the internet a while ago of the supposed Kija genealogy. It contained a number of errors, especially in the dating. Such gan-zhi dating of years for reigns is said to be a later Han means of dating, and such precision could only have come from back calculating from a given date, towards the 1122 BC supposed arrival of Kija in GoChosen. -- Dylanwhs 23:37, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. I'm happy to have fruitful discussion here. --Nanshu 14:15, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rime and Rhyme

Hello. Thanks for your information on rime and rhyme when I erroneously renamed rime dictionary to rhyme dictionary. Now that I understand the distinction, I changed rhyme to rime in Pinyin. This change was reverted by Chamaeleon, who thinks they are identical (see my talk page please). Could you please show me some linguistic sources that distinguish them, to strengthen my pro-distinction position?

Shinji: In [3] p.946 "Chinese characters that share the same phonetic components can be homophones... rhyming syllables (e.g. [dzung]3 and [dung]6", and in the following paragraph, "In the cantonese syllable [dip]9, [d] is the onset, [ip]] is the rime and 9 indicates that the syllable is the ninth tone". The rhyming you'll notice refers to syllables of the same 'rime', where rime follows the 'onset'. In Thomas Chan's thesis on Cantonese [4] in section 2.4.1 "the -om [-Om] and -op [-Op] rimes" though it does not deal with rhyming of syllables.

I do concede though that in some English language sources such as Norman 'Chinese' (1988), he uses rhyme and rhyming throughout, but the rime/rhyme distinction may be a trend in Chinese linguistics. Yu NaeWing's "New Edition of Guangyun (Song Edition)" has a section in English describing the terminology, and he uses "rime" specifically to refer to the rhymming part of a syllable. The distinction was pointed out to me by a Chinese dialectologist, Dr. Lau Chunfat, who is currently serving a deputy professorship in Xiamen University when I met him in HK a few years ago, and to which I have since adhered to in all my writings on the subject here and elsewhere. The sources I cite are hopefully enough to strengthen the pro-distinction. (I will add this your talkpage also.) 09:11, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] HKWNB, HKCOTW, Current events

Hello. You might be interested to take a look at HK wikipedians' notice board, HK Collaboration of the Week and Current events in Hong Kong and Macao. Happy editing! — Insta ntnood 10:06, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I've begun Kuk Po, my roots. Dylanwhs 15:49, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for joining. :-) — Insta ntnood 09:12, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Vitasoy

Hi there! I've been writing this article for some time, and now it turns out to be a pretty long entry from nearly nothing! Hope you can drop me some comment, and, if possible, make any improvement as you wish.

Thanks for your attention. Jerry Crimson Mann 21:33, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Waitau Wah

Some editors are working on languages of Hong Kong, and we're a bit confused whether "Wai Tau Wah" (圍頭話) refers specifically to the Cantonese dialect of the Puntis in Hong Kong, or a mixture of Cantonese and Hakka dialects. Have you got any idea? :-) — Insta ntnood 13:39, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for making the changes. Are the She people and their language closely related to Hakka, or is it just a mistake to relate Hakka with She? Perhaps we can further the discussion at talk:Waitau. — Insta ntnood 20:35, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

I will incorporate ur information into the article, or u can just edit it, of course. ^_^ --K.C. Tang 01:44, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

I have revised the article, see see if it's ok. --K.C. Tang 12:49, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

From my own language/speech of Shataukok, the following Hakka vocabulary are cognates with those listed under WaiTau words in the article. I've provided the characters that I think best fits the pronunciations with its meanings.

Characters	English	Pronunciation (IPA)

烏	extinguished	vu₃₃
慌	afraid	k^hɔŋ₁₁
乾	dried	kɔn₃₃
綯	to tie, to fasten	t^hau₁₁
唔曾	not yet	m₃₃ ts^hen₁₁
求乎	as long as, provided that	k^hiu₁₁ fu₁₁
能太	clever	len₁₁ t^hai₅₃
貓	cat	miau₅₃
渠	him/her	ki₁₁

This table appears in the talk page for WaiTau speech. Dylanwhs 23:38, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

thanks for the reference! but could u give a brief guide for reading the tonal mark? I want to know how the words sound but i am unfamiliar with the symbols. --K.C. Tang 12:39, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

I've had a look at the article again, and had to rewrite bits of it so that the incorporation of the Hakka information makes sense. WaiTau Wah is therefore not solely a Cantonese dialect, as was suggested previously. I hope you can clean up my lax wording. In the table, I've added two columns of the information I have earlier on some of the vocabulary items. It does show including that Se Wah and Hakka Wah are closely related in the vocabulary, at least. Thanks. (This message appears also in K.C. Tang's user talk page.) Dylanwhs 16:54, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

The symbols are in IPA (International Phonetic Association) characters. Each character represents a sound, depending on the point and manner of artulation in the mouth, and the vowels depend on tongue positioning. I think the most accessible way to learn it, it to look at an IPA transcription of Cantonese. You can then branch out, and find out about the pronunciation of spoken English and other languages such as Mandarin. It is good practice when talking about linguistics and languages to know how to transcribe or at least read IPA. You have a common standard to communicate sounds with. For example if I asked you to pronounce bough and bought, slough and dough, they all sound different, and don't rhyme either, despite having "ough". In IPA one could write bau, bɔt, slʌf, deʊ, and they're all different. Dylanwhs 17:04, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Chow is also known to have spoken Hakka in at least one of his early comedic films. Buddy, I guess this sentence has to be removed if we can't really state in which movie Chow speaks the language. The examples u provide are really good, including the 中庸 one. ^_^ --K.C. Tang 15:51, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Buddy, could u also explain the following sentence? I can't quite get it: In Hong Kong Hakka, as well as in the Meixian Hakka, 知 is always pronounced [ti₃₃], transcribed phonemically in Hakka as di1, where the tone is a mid level tone in Hong Kong Hakka speech. --K.C. Tang 16:05, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Dylanwhs 23:00, 6 September 2005 (UTC) The Hakka pronunciation (using IPA characters to transcribe those sounds) is [ti₃₃]. It is [ti] in both Meixian and Hong Kong Hakka (with a slight tone pitch diffrence, but the word 知 is in the same tone type (yin ping) in both Hong Kong and Meixian dialects. Using a non-IPA transcription, ie. the phonemic one, it can be rendered as di¹. The tone pitch /33/ in [ti₃₃] is mid and level. In the Yuen Ren Chao scale of pitches, the highest pitch is 5, and the lowest pitch is 1. So a tone which varies as /33/ is mid level, /11/ low level, /55/ high level. If the pitch of a tone varies /31/ it is said to be mid falling, /13/ is said to be low rising, /35/ is said to be mid rising, /45/ can be said to be high rising, and so on. So the IPA transcription is formed of two parts, the syllable and the tone for Hakka (and other Chinese) dialects, just as the phonemic transcription uses a convenient romanised form and a tone accent or tone mark. It has been the practice in other wiki articles I've helped in to show tones in IPA as subscripts, and tone marks in the phonemic transcription as a superscript. Dylanwhs 23:00, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

We also need to figure out how to re-do the table. --K.C. Tang 16:21, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I think the comparison between Cantonese and Hakka is interesting, and the table has this. Perhaps the Hakka comments in the characters section ought to be split off into another column, but too many columns make it looked rather cramped as it does now... Dylanwhs 23:00, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Waitau revised

Hello, I've redone the table, making it as concise as possible, removing less significant terms such as 渠 and 貓 (since all Cantonese, Waitau and Hakka use the same word, only differ in pronunciations). Pls take a look. By the way, do u still live in Sha Tau Kok? (I'm not familiar with the area, but I live in Fanling, and sometimes my bicycle ride would lead me pass there. Curious to meet someone who live or once lived so close with me on Wiki!!!) :P --K.C. Tang 16:51, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

The notes should have indicated that the characters I suggested are for Hakka. Whether they correspond to the WaiTau characters, I don't know, as the sounds for WaiTau are different from Hakka.

since those Hakka and Waitau words sound to be cognates, i guess it is possible to let them share the characters. By the way, are those characters used in Hakka publications? the Hakka article mentions there are Hakka New Testatment and Hakka Le Petite Prince. --K.C. Tang 11:55, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

The only Hakka books I have are mostly concerned with linguistics. The couple which aren't are mostly published in Taiwan. Being in the UK is difficult to obtain books on Hakka. All the books I have concerning Chinese are for the most part bought in HK, and came back in the luggage with me here. Dylanwhs 07:37, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Shataukok is off limits to most non-locals (gam-kuei 禁區), so I guess it's hard to get a look in. I don't live there. I live in England. However, I'm familiar with Fanling, Luen Wo Hui and Sheung Shui. When the new library opened above the market in LWH a couple of years ago, it was marvellous. I didn't need to go all the way to Sheung Shui or Shatin. Dylanwhs 17:52, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I consider that more comfortable than the Hong Kong Central Library; and I can go to 群記 to eat 豬手 after going to the library. --K.C. Tang 11:55, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

I will try to add more terms to the table, u can check it occasionally to see if u can add the Hakka cognates if any. --K.C. Tang 11:55, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

OK, I pop in once or twice a week. Dylanwhs 07:37, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Friend, thanks for helping with Zhao Yuanren. I gotta go but I'm sure we'll talk again because it seems we have many interests in common. Belated Zhong Qiu Jie Kuai Le ;) How do you say that in Hakka or Cantonese? --Dpr 22:03, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hakka

Thanks for your work on Hakka. More assistance in the linguistic derivation area (perhaps in the future we could produce a table?) would be deeply appreciated. Good luck with your Wikiing --Dpr 18:10, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hakka pronounciation

Hi Dylanwhs, I'm working on the Yuan (surname) article and am collecting regional prounciations of the surname. Do you know the Hakka transliteration (in Moiyen, or other dialects)? I know of Yuan clans in Tongguan, Meixian, Xingning and Huiyang - these are all Hakka areas, right? Thanks in advance for your help. --Yeu Ninje 07:30, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

That list of IPA pronounciations you sent was extremely useful. I didn't know I could get such an extensive list from so many different regions. Thanks a million. One question though, would it be conventional to enter that list you gave me into a Wikipedia article? I'm thinking of something along the lines of: "The IPA pronounciation of "Yuan" in the Jinan dialect is 0 1 2 [y a z 42]." Is that understandable, or does it require more explanation? Also in terms of the Fanqie spelling, what's an acceptable way to present that information? --Yeu Ninje 21:41, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

The z in the listing actually represents a nasalisation. It is sometimes represented by a tilde over the main vowel [~]. The use of the square brackets indicates that what is within them is IPA. [yã₄₂] would be the correct rendering. Dylanwhs 21:10, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I've incorporated that list you gave into the Yuan (surname) article in the footnotes section. Could I trouble you to check if it's correct, I'm pretty sure some of it is non conventional. Also, I'm not sure how to characterise these two:

山合三平元云5913 2018

中 0 1 2 [ y e n P2 ]

Is the first one Middle Chinese? Thanks again for your expertise. Yeu Ninje 21:29, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Template for Hakka speakers

Hello could you convert the text in the {{user zh-hakka}}, {{user zh-hakka-1}}.. {{user zh-hakka-4}} templates into vernacular form of Hakka from standard written Chinese? Thanks. — Insta ntnood 17:17, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Now done, and added the English equivalent so that everyone can understanad it who come here to en.wiki... Dylanwhs 09:32, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] the character 費

hello, I'd like to ask about the pronunciation of the character 費. It has always been known to me to have the reading of bei (Cantonese: bi) when used as a surname, but recently i heard that every news broadcaster read that as fei, when they reported news concerning the astronaut 費俊龍. I have been confused. I'm not a purist, but i want to know that whether the reading has really been changed in recent years (decades)? and how about 單 and 翟? or it is that there are indeed people who are with the surname 費 but which has a different reading? i am confused, help... --K.C. Tang 07:03, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm interested to know too. I heard somebody saying bei/bi and fai/fei are of different origin, albeit the same character. Is that true? — Insta ntnood 17:28, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Instantnood is right in saying that there are two origins for the different pronunciations. In fact the character had two different readings in Old Chinese and subsequently inherited in Middle Chinese and through to modern Chinese dialects. The OC unaspirated unvoiced [p] initial continues and manifests itself in [p] reading in Cantonese "bi" [pi], whilst the OC voiced initial [b] went through the MC transformation and devoiced to form [f] which manifests itself as [f] in Cantonese [fai].

Quite often where characters have different pronunciations, they're due to fossilisation of pronunciations from earlier times, or as a result of borrowing the character for meanings which are related. Names are sometimes where the character pronunciation most differs from the usual everyday used pronunciation.

If the reader was reading the name wrongly, he probably used the everyday pronunciation. That's the state of journalism for you. Dylanwhs 21:21, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I've found this article, would u comment on that? --K.C. Tang 00:50, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] zh-Hakka

You removed the English translation of the tab, but I think this should be kept in. The site is the en.wikipedia.org, and I believe it would be helpful for English language readers to know what the script in Chinese means. If you leave it out, it becomes just a mystery for non-readers of Chinese text, and on an English language site, that is exclusionary. Dylanwhs 09:44, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't agree to add English translation unless all language tags do it. For example, French language tag only contains French and have no English. --Hello World! 11:49, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Follow-ups Template_talk:User_zh-hakka

[edit] kau4 kei4

hello, i just re-read the waitau article, i'm not sure kau4 kei4 should be 求祈 or 求其? (i prefer the latter) how do u think? --K.C. Tang 02:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Dragonbones. Your referencing and source noting is detailed and exemplary. Click on my name and look at my user contributions in regard to Chinese topics I have written and feel free to expand and correct. I notice your detail about oracle bones in the article on stroke order (which seems highly inappropriate hidden away only on the talk page). May I suggest you expand the section on oracle script. I am in the process of reading Keightley's Sources of Shang History at present. However, I'm too busy to edit much on wiki anymore. As it seems you have the same interests in this direction as I have, I wish you well. Dylanwhs 19:49, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi Dylanwhs! I had already noticed your name on a number of Chinese-related pages, as a high-quality and frequent contributor, and have come across your Sapienti and Dylan Sung materials on the web. Sorry to see you're so busy now! Yes, I plan to extensively work on the oracle bone page very shortly, but have first taken on the tasks of standardizing the terminology for the 六書 liu4shu1 character classification and calligraphic and historical script types, adding tone marks to pinyin, and fixing the rampant misusage of and confusion over the term 'radical', an unfortunate word if I ever saw one. I'm pleased to see you're reading Keightley. He doesn't really cover the story of their discovery, nor does Sources get into the OB textual contents much, but it's still the fundamental English introduction, IMO. After that, you might want to consider reading his Keightley, David N. (2000). The Ancestral Landscape: Time, Space, and Community in Late Shang China (ca. 1200 – 1045 B.C.). China Research Monograph 53, Institute of East Asian Studies, University of California – Berkeley. ISBN 1-55729-070-9. That delves into analyzing the content of the OB inscrips to learn about weather, geography, the calendar, etc. in the Shang world. Not focused on etymology, but interesting anyway. As for learning more about the story of the discovery of OB etc., consider reading Hsu Ya-wei (2002) Ancient Chinese Writing, Oracle Bone Inscriptions from the Ruins of Yin-- Illustrated guide to the Special Exhibition of Oracle Bone Inscriptions from the Institute of History and Philology, Academia Sinica. English translation by Mark Caltonhill and Jeff Moser. National Palace Museum, Taipei. Govt. Publ. No. 1009100250. I'll edit to add the Chinese edition info and the author's Chinese name shortly. Not sure if you can get this, but it briefly covers the apocryphal story of the discovery of the significance of 'dragon bones' in the Chinese medicine market, the scholars involved, and so on, topics which I'll cover in the OB page when I rewrite it.

BTW, have you read these? All highly recommended. --

Loewe, Michael (ed., 1993). Early Chinese Texts: A Bibliographical Guide, (Early China Special Monograph Series No. 2), Society for the Study of Early China, and the Institute of East Asian Studies, University of California, Berkeley, ISBN 1-55729-043-1. A long-needed, concise guide, written by a number of specialists in each text, to sixty-four important, early Chinese works from the Zhoū to the Hàn dynasties, many of which are frequently cited in etymologies for evidence of character usages. A highly recommended and indispensable reference work.

Woon, Wee Lee (1987). Chinese Writing: Its Origin and Evolution. In English. Explores in depth the early pottery inscriptions, from the Neolithic Banpo to the excavations at the last Shāng Dyn. capital at Xiaotun (Anyang, Henan Province) in light of OB (oracle bone) and bronze forms. Joint Publishing, fax: 852-28104201; email: jpchk@jointpublishing.com (attn: Edith Ho kit-sheung); be sure to send the author and title in Chinese by fax to get the right book: 作者: 雲惟利，書名: 漢字的原始和演變.

Serruys, Paul L-M. (1984) "On the System of the Pu Shou 部首 in the Shuo-wen chieh-tzu 說文解字", in 中央研究院歷史語言研究所集刊 Zhōngyāng yánjiùyuàn lìshĭ yǔyán yánjiùsuǒ jíkān, v.55:4, pp.651-754. In English. Prof. Serruys examines the underlying principles behind 許慎 Xŭ Shèn’s then-innovative system of 部首 bùshǒu, which he translates as Division Heads, (i.e., the parts of characters used as dictionary look-up keys, often mis-termed “radicals” ). Serruys then provides a full transcription and translation of the Shuōwén entries for all 540 部首 bùshǒu, along with his own brief commentary, in which he elucidates the organizational principles involved in their sequencing.

陳昭容 Chén Zhāoróng (2003) 秦系文字研究 ﹕从漢字史的角度考察 Research on the Qín (Ch'in) Lineage of Writing: An Examination from the Perspective of the History of Chinese Writing. 中央研究院歷史語言研究所專刊 Academia Sinica, Institute of History and Philology Monograph. ISBN 957-671-995-X. In Chinese. Invaluable for understanding the relationship of seal script to bronze script, and how the former was not a sudden Qin dyn. invention, but evolved organically out of the earlier Zhou script, as did the so-called gu3wen2 of the Eastern Warring States (these being two separate lineages that split from a common ancestor as exemplified in the 籀文 Zhou4wen2 graphs of ca. 800BC).

And have you read Qiu Xigui's Chinese Writing? There are editions in both English and Chinese. Sorry for the long reply; too much coffee! ;) Dragonbones 02:30, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] reply from Dragonbones

BTW, have you read these? All highly recommended. --

And have you read Qiu Xigui's Chinese Writing? There are editions in both English and Chinese. Sorry for the long reply; too much coffee! ;) Dragonbones 02:33, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyediting

Hi, I'm tyring to make an article on series of Chinese battle details in English, could you help me out? May I have your email, thank you. Eiorgiomugini 02:50, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry E, but I've cut down my editing on Wiki articles. You can however, ask for help from other Chinese editors in the Hong Kong noticeboard. Dylanwhs 10:05, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Eiorgiomugini 12:05, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where did I write something untrue?

I wonder where the message User:Phillip_J alludes to in his recent edit in Talk:Hakka_(linguistics) is.... I'm dying to know what I wrote which was untrue. Click on the History tab to see his comment to his edit of 04:51, 26 April 2006. Dylanwhs 08:16, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Apologies, my mistake - Your statements are all true.

The correct comment was supposed to read: "Removed untrue statement. See User:84.71.130.188's talk page."

This was because User:84.71.130.188 wrote this untrue statement (just right below your comments):[5]. Therefore I responded here:[6].

-- Phillip J, 10:18 Monday 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hakka Wikipedia

Good Morning Dylanwhs,

The Hakka Test Wikipedia has been created. --Phillip J 04:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Waitau

Hello, Dylanwhs, long time no see. Indeed I wanted to consult you before the move, but found that you said in your user page, sadly, you've "virtually stopped editing here". Anyway, I was being rash, and sorry for that. The vacabulary section indeed looks very interesting to me, and I was quite reluctant to remove it. But my rationale for removing it is that no one has made such a Waitau-Standard Cantonese-Hakka vacabulary list before (as far as I know - I don't know much of course, pls correct me if I'm wrong), so it is original work, and the policies of Wikipedia hold that we should not post original work here. I'm not sure if my rationale is strong enough, pls correct me if I'm wrong.

By the way, I've revised some Chinese linguistics articles which you began, such as rime dictionary and rime table, I'm afraid I've messed them up, pls take a look at them if you've got time. Hope you'll be back some day. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 14:44, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I think this is really a tricky case... I would imagine someone asking "what are the sources of that vacabulary list?" Then we may answer: "Well, it's based on our intimate knowledge of those languages." With this answer may come this retort: "So it's based on you guys' own knowledge, eh? pls read Wikipedia:No original research, it states that '... any facts... published by Wikipedia must already have been published by a reliable publication in relation to the topic of the article', you guys simply can't base the things on you own knowledge!" I would imagine such an embarrassing situation, or am I too cautious?

By the way, do you have some books to recommend if one wants to learn more about the Hakka language? The Hakka article here does not recommend any books. Cheers. --K.C. Tang 01:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

yeah you're right, there is some fundamental weakness to it, but when we cite a source, we don't mean that what the source says is correct (it may very well be crackpot!), we are doing that just for the sake of Wikipedia:Verifiability... yes, sometimes the policies sound contradictary, but what can we do? we only want to help to build up a useful and free encyclopedia, with this goal in view, we may want to choose to err on the side of being too cautious... I don't know... I must've expressed myself clumsily, forgive me Dylan... cheers :-) --K.C. Tang 09:26, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Teochew in Chinese wikipedia

Hi, Dylanwhs. I am a wikipedian from Hong Kong (and of Teochew descent). I have translated large parts of Teochew (dialect) into Chinese. This is my second attempt. Because of a serious lack of information and sources, besides translating the English text, I also borrowed some information from your site (the romanization scheme). I don't know if there is something wrong with my borrowing and with the text I submit on Chinese version. In particular, I actually have doubts about the finals' IPA and tone sandhi. I'm not a student of Linguistics or whatever, so I'd like to know if you would give some advice. :)

By the way, I am very glad to know that your site is one of few online resources on Teochew (to be frank, what a pity that so few online resources, and very few useful books can be found for Teochew)... and you are a wikipedian too! :)

--Fitzwilliam 04:54, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

The main article is done. A few questions on the Scheme page: Is the 潮汕方言韻母內部差異表 part of the scheme? When writing up the scheme as a new article, I suppose there should be some rearrangements. At the moment, I would just borrow large parts from what has been written in Chinese version.

Apart from that, the "sound changes" and the table of syllables may also be included. (btw, there seem to be a few typos in your page...) What do you think?--Fitzwilliam 09:45, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Happy New Year!

Happy New Year! Wish you all the best in the year of the pig. Wish you a year full of knowledge and energy. As nurtured as a pig, as content as a pig. Greetings from Hong Kong. --Der yck C. 16:57, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment back there in my talk page. --Der yck C. 10:17, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jiahu script

I am not sure what is it the picture about,this picture is uploaded in the article Jiahu as Jiahu Bone Markings.If it is not the Jiahu script,please to remove it.--Ksyrie 08:13, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

If you are not sure the authencity of this picture,tried to find the proof and remove it.--Ksyrie 16:39, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

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