Talk:Dutch Empire

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[edit] earlier conversations

What a load of crap! Pardon my french. The Netherlands reigned supreme from 1600-1840? I'd say it was 1598-1702 when William III died. With the war of the spanish succession it was all over and England had taken the lead. Eastern Timor has always been Potuguese, to my knowledge. The Netherlands Antilles is still a part of the kingdom so 1986 is absolutely not correct. Maybe Aruba got status aparate in 1986, i don't know. South Africa was conceded to the british in 1806. To say that Belgium and Luxemburg were ever really part of the Dutch empire is an overstatement. They were never really effectively under Dutch rule. Belgium was a part of the Spanish-Habsburg empire and Luxemburg was a posession of the Dutch King but was never under Dutch government rule. The few years after the Vienna convention that Belgium and Luxemburg were 'Dutch' don't make them part of any dutch empire. If this is the angle from which to approach empire-theory i'd say that between 1689 and 1702 England, Ireland and Scotland would have been part of the Dutch empire as well. Swaziland and Lesotho raise question marks with me. Maybe the Boer-population settled there but they were never considered to be dutch citizens. New Zealand? Never! I don't care to check but I think the New York / Albany / Kingston years don't match.

I'm missing Ceylon and Taiwan, Brazil, goldcoast/slavecoast/ivorycoast Angola and the malabar and coromandel coasts in India.

Don't quote me on this because I don't have all the info handy but this story should be removed immediately.

A concerned dutchman with a passion for colonial history.

I've created a new, better map. --Mixcoatl 13:57, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)


Netherlands empire? I'm ready now to see United Kingdomian Empire. A scan through the standard history books might suggest the norm. --Wetman 02:23, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Malaya & Deshima

The map is inaccurate. The Dutch never ruled all of Malaya (now West Malaysia), just Malacca. Also, what's that spot on Japan? Is it supposed to be Deshima? If so, it's on the wrong island — Nagasaki is on Kyushu Island, not Shikoku!

Also, what are those spots on the south coast of China and on the north coast of New Zealand? I can't figure out what those are supposed to be.

-- ran (talk) 03:01, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Raction on the former

@Ran >> The fact that Malakka is coloured as a whole is no problem. The Dutch had ultimate control not just over Malakka as you state, but also a lot of other forts were built as for example in Selangor, Fort Altingburg, Fort Utrecht >> 1784 - 1824 and Tanjungpinang (Riouw) The real control stretched maybe only along the coastline, but in the end, the Dutch traded the entire Mallakka peninsula for Aceh (Sumatra) with the English. So politically, the hole peninsula was in Dutch hands for almost 200 years. That why the map IS accurate. Or maybe you want to state that the British ruled the entire Sudan or Afghanistan. Off course not, but it still is coloured as though was a fully controled area. So theres no problem here.

@Ran2 >> The spots on the southcoast of China must represent the cities of Amoy (of Xiamen), Canton (1728/1749-1803) or Hoksieu (Fuzhou), 1662-?.

@Mixcoall >> I totally agree; Belgium and Luxembourg should be removed from the map. Its nonsense. --Islanublar 16:07, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dutch Colonial History

I initially got to this page because I was in favor of merging the two sections... But on reading what you guys wrote I indeed have to agree, the articles need to be changed into one and, more importantly, accurately portray the Colonial History of the Netherlands. My father is an historian and I've always been interested in my country's colonial history, but that doesn't mean I'm qualified to rewrite the article. I don't know who wrote it initially, but it isn't really an article, more like an attempt at a list of all the colonies that The United Netherlands had. I would continue complaining about the article, but I don't like ANY of it. Trade posts don't count as colonies, the Dutch had a trading post in Japan, but we never colonized it. Finally, I have never heard of the use of the term Dutch Empire, nobody inside the Netherlands considers and Empire part of our history, so I would suggest we delete those titles and replace it with a new article named Dutch Colonial History, or something along those lines. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this, especially from concerned Dutchmen.

@ Wetman; the British Empire ring a bell? United Kingdomian Empire... lol


I've just removed a fragment from this section, "I love spaghetti." Does this suggest something weird about the section? (Is this a code/test?) I'd like to see some verification for the claims about Netherlandish Aborigines in Australia, claims about which look particularly suspect when ending with "I love spaghetti."

[edit] New Zealand

Yes the Dutch came by in the form of Abel Tasman, but they didn't even land! I hardly think New Zealand can be considered a colony... So I'm taking it out..

[edit] Empire vs Factories

There is an unbelievable amount of guff in this article. 132.229.165.88 - trading factories are not imperial posessions. Most of this list belongs in the Dutch East India Company or Dutch West India Company articles. Certainly the trading posts in Thailand and Vietnam don't belong here. Gsd2000 23:53, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Dutch "Empire"

To the person above who disputes the usage of the term Dutch "Empire", renowned historian Charles R. Boxer wrote a book entitled ["The Dutch Seaborne Empire"]. Searching for the term "Dutch Empire" in Google returns 26,000 hits. Gsd2000 21:51, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup Mania

I've spent several hours of my Saturday afternoon trying to get this article cleaned up. The three things I have done are (1) add a section about the controversy relating to the term "Dutch Empire". Though I myself find this very uncontroversial, I see that others disagree. An anonymous user had added a large and far too subjective chunk of text to the beginning of this article which I have condensed into this section. (2) I moved all the Dutch company trading posts to their own page. It was getting very long, and cluttering up the article. (3) I have tried to start restructuring the bona fide Dutch possessions into more meaningful sections - Far East, New Netherland, South America, South Africa etc, such that the text can become more fleshed out, rather than simply being a list. Gsd2000 00:08, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map inacuracies

Whoever drew that map did not know what he was doing.

- The area showed in Indonesia was never completely held by the VOC, as the map seems to claim. Their controll did not extend much beyond Java and the Moluccas.

- To my fairly certain knowledge the Netherlands never held any part of what is today Germany, the map seems to claim otherwise. Am i mistaken? did the Netherlands hold part of Ostfriesland?

- Deshima is indeed shown on the wrong island.

- There was never a permamenent Dutch settlment, not even a trading post, in Kanton. Although some traders might have been permanently present in (Portugese) Macauo.

- When did we ever colonise New Zealand?

- I have severe doubts about the extent of the Cape Colony but i cannot check right now. Some of the other African and American bits look suspicious to me but someone more familiar then me with that part of Dutch history would have to check on that. Zotlan 21:43, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

This map shows territories controlled by the Dutch at any time, the colour coding shows territories that originated from a particular VOC (hence the Indonesia colouring). I removed Germany, moved Deshima to the right island, removed Macao, removed New Zealand. I also fixed colouring of Malay peninsula and Formosa - Dutch control never extended outside Melaka and Fort Zeelandia respectively. Gsd2000 02:38, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Can you do the same with inland (former British-) Guyana? Delete it? The Dutch only went into the Surinam jungle. Boudewijn8 17:38, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
"the colour coding shows territories that originated from a particular VOC (hence the Indonesia colouring)" My point was that the VOC never controlled all of what is now Indonesia. Most of those areas did not become Dutch untill the latter half of the 19th century. The VOC was abolished on the first day of 1800.
Yes but the Netherlands did control all of Indonesia. This article is about the Dutch Empire from start to end. Not just the VOC. My point is that control of all of Indonesia originated from control of parts of it by the VOC. Gsd2000 12:14, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] To the person who insists on adding their POV to this article about the term 'Empire', but who during the discussion luckily has abandoned anonymity

Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought. I have never seen the debate that your edits suggest is such a matter of contention, and as I pointed out above, "renowned historian Charles R. Boxer wrote a book entitled ["The Dutch Seaborne Empire"]. Searching for the term "Dutch Empire" in Google returns 26,000 hits.". Also, try searching for "Dutch Empire" in books.google.com: http://books.google.com/books?q=%22dutch+empire%22 and see all the books that refer to this without the controversy you portray. You are quibbling over nomenclature that is pretty commonplace, and this article is not a soapbox for your views, or a staging post for an essay by you on the subject.

Answer: This is absolutely not an original thought. It is a thought based on several years of study of colonial history. For discussions on colonialism, the nature of the Dutch Empire, the tendency of Dutch historians to avoid the term "Empire", I can refer you to books written by Maarten Kuitenbrouwer, and many more (want a list?).
Actually, yes, I would be interested in a list. If possible, a few apt quotes would provide substance to your argument. Gsd2000 23:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
See point on Dutch language articles below. Boudewijn8 17:08, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Although it is nowadays more accepted to speak about the Dutch Empire, many do only so by comparing it with the other Empires with whom it shared a lot. But the Dutch seldomly referred to it as an 'Empire' (compare with article on Belgian Empire, the same idea), but as a the colonial part of the kingdom. There was no emperor, like the German Wilhelm II, the French Napoleon III, or even Queen Victoria, the Empress of India. The Dutch king was a king. I understand the pragmatic concept of using the word "Empire", but I only labelled it "problematic", also wanting to show the problematic aspect of "Dutch" before the 1800s. I want to refer to books written by Knippenberg en De Pater, Van Sas and many others.
Hold on, the British Empire predates usage of the term Empress of India, and anyway India was only part of the British Empire, and Queen Victoria was Empress of India, not Empress of the British Empire. The King and President of Portugal and the President of France were not Emporers but Portugal and France had Empires. Japan has an Emporer but is no longer an Empire. You can have one without the other. I notice that your sources are all Dutch. I fully accept that the Dutch may have never really referred to their possessions as the "Dutch Empire" and may prefer the term "Nederlandse koloniën", but I do not accept that there is a debate amongst English language historians about use of the title, or use of the term "Dutch" to describe your ancestors before a certain date (unless you can provide English language texts proving the contrary). Gsd2000 23:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
As I repeat, I label it "problematic". I do not say I do not want to use it. I agree that the term Empire should be maintained to describe the Dutch colonies, for the sake of making comparative history possible. In the Dutch language, indeed, I can give you a list, but I agree that this would not help you very much convincing you of a debate between "english language historians". I have added an extra work written by H. L. Wesseling in the article, with an essay about the character of Dutch imperialism. I think it is ironic in what kind of a position I am now in. In the Netherlands I would defend the use of the term Empire for the period 1800-1975, for I feel that many Dutch are too much focused (like the Americans and Belgians) to name their Empire just "colonies". But before 1800, since it was not the Dutch government governing the colonies and since Dutchness was not really something worth mentioning before the 1800s, I am seriously in doubt about using the word Empire to describe the early phase. It is benefit of hindsight-history. It is ironic, however, that one is now accusing me of dislabelling the Dutch colonial history of the term 'Empire'. I merely -I cannot stress this too much- want to say, that it is a highly problematic term. Boudewijn8 17:08, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Boxer wrote his book a long time ago and is considered out-dated! But I understand your comments on my piece being to much essayistic. But please consider opening the article with some sentences about the nature of Empire, or refer the reader in the opening sentences (as I had done) to the section in the end. It does not help just to censure everything I wrote. We do not want a game of articles being placed in and placed out. I expect a more generous treatment of this issue. For now I will leave it to you to do so, since you do not like others to mingle in 'your' article.
I in no way consider this to be 'my' article. It's everyone's article. I was concerned by an anonymous user injecting what I considered to be too much content devoted to arguing one side of a debate that my own reading of European colonial histories suggests is really a non-debate. Gsd2000 23:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
You are right about being upset by the injection of too much info by an anonymous user. That is why I have registered now. Boudewijn8 17:08, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
But I will "be back" soon. To keep you from spending all your saturdays to writing and censuring this article, it is wiser to give other people more space. It is not "your" article. It is not "your empire".
Thankyou for pointing out that it is not my empire. I was seriously under the impression that I owned territories abroad from the late 1500s to 1975 for a moment there. Gsd2000 23:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Please do not do as if you are not familiar with irony. Boudewijn8 17:08, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
It is not even "my empire", even considering that my nationality (dutch) at least might me more claim to write about it than yours (english) (but luckily it does not).
The fact that you say this worries me, for two reasons. (1) no serious academic would even hint at the possibility that nationals are better placed to write about their own nation's history than foreigners are. (2) you mention your nationality is Dutch, and that you are quibbling over usage of the term "Dutch Empire" to describe your own country's overseas possessions smacks exactly like the repeated comments on the American Empire (term) page. Go see for yourself the Americans who deny that America ever had an empire. Furthermore, have you considered that I am a native English speaker, this is the English Wikipedia, "Dutch Empire" are English terms, and therefore I might be more qualified than you to write about it? NB I am only replying in kind to illustrate the childishness of your argument - this is not a thought that I am seriously entertaining. Gsd2000 23:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Hasn't it occurred to you that the sentence "but luckily it does not" illustrates that my 'childish' argument is not a thought I am seriously entertaining as well? So, do not let it worry you then. I agree that this is maybe the weakest point of my argument. It is an argument of "Look, I do not mean it, but I am saying it, so, still, I remind you of it". But I see, that you have done the same in your answer. But you are right on this point. I can imagine it must be hard for you that the language of your country has become a global language and therefore can be 'claimed' by many more people than just Americans, English and Commonwealth people. Euro-english has become a new language and within 100 years will develop into a literary language maybe. Boudewijn8 17:08, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
And stop referring to my article as being "subjective" or "POV". It is highly irritating. Your attributions are more subjective than mine; full objectivity is nonsense, but I at least tried to introduce the contemporary (!) debate.
At least I am keeping my POV to the talk page where it belongs. Yours is spilling out onto the article. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE DISCUSSION PAGE. You are blind if you cannot see that your edits were POV. You were turning a factual article about Dutch colonial possessions into an essay arguing (ie POV) that usage of the term "Empire" is "problematic". I frankly do not care how irritated you get at me labelling your edits as POV, and I will continue to do so as long as your edits are POV. Gsd2000 23:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
As stated, your article is not factual as well. I do not think it is wise not to be concerned by people being irritated. Irritated people can do a lot of havoc to wikipedia and I think that being irritated should be avoided by people like me, but that the behaviour of people "guarding" certain lemmas should also be more focused on appeasing critics instead of damning them. For, example, I do not feel the need to stress my point with capitals and bold letters. That worries me! Have I irritated you? That has not been my intention. Boudewijn8 17:08, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Your quotation of Boxer (who is considered quite old-fashioned, at least in the Netherlands, and is not taught at university anymore) is not the end of the discussion. Facts are not simply facts. But I know, this is an encyclopedia, and not a post-modern essay. I know that, but at least acknowledge the existence of debates. Like the great Dutch historian Pieter Geyl wrote: "history is a discussion without an end."

Boudewijn8 15:14, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Boxer remains to this day an authority on the history of Portuguese activities in the Far East, especially Macao. Gsd2000 23:40, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Read again: "Portuguese". This lemma is about ...? This argument is fallacious because it suggest that books remain up-to-date as long its author is still considered an authority in other terrains. Boudewijn8 17:08, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
By the way, a lot of my irritation was due to the fact that, despite me before putting my reasoning on the talk page, you never contributed to it, simply reverting large chunks of the article using an anonymous IP address. I am pleased to see that you have now contributed to the debate. Gsd2000 23:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Thank you. As far as I can see, you were right on two points: my being anonymous at first stage, and my argument-which-was-not-an-argument about the Dutch nationality of the author of the lemma. My task is to look for a nice quote for you on the problems of the term Empire and your task is to appease the critics. It works better in the long term, I think. Within a few years many more Dutch people (it is I think the 6th language in Wikipedia, although it will not stay that way I think (other languages growing faster)) will realise that there is also an English wikipedia-site and they will feel entitled to change everything they see that is 'wrong' in the lemmas on 'their' history. Or worse, they read this site and do not change it and think the information is true and that the Dutch should be the truthful heirs to the places listed above. You know, one of the reasons that many university-based Dutch and Belgians do not like to name their colonial possessions an 'Empire', is because they feel guilty about it and do not want to claim past 'mastery' of such a large group of people or see it as an anomaly -such small countries!- . In that way they differ from the Americans who do not think of their possessions as an 'Empire' because they see themselves wrongly as champions of anticolonialism (but one should look at the history of the Philippines ;-) ). For the English and the French the aspect of Empire is much more strongly developed in the education curricula. They still are in charge of remnants of it today (forgetting the 6 small islands that are still part of the Dutch kingdom) or watered-down institutions like the Commonwealth and the Francophone. National agency in France and England have longer histories than those in the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany or Italy. Well, to end the debate, I think it is therefore better if we both co-operate in writing a text which is unproblematic to both Dutch as English language readers, although that does not mean "keep out the truth if it hurts", but to make it more true than it is now, to both English and Dutch and the rest (Indonesians, Americans, Norwegians, Irish etc...) Truth and diplomacy are better bedfellows than you think. Boudewijn8 17:08, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
So how did the Dutch refer to their overseas possessions? Why don't you just add a simple statement in the "debate" section stating that the Dutch never referred to it as an Empire (if that is really the case), and leave it at that? It doesn't need a huge section on the subject, because it is not the main point of the article, though reflection on how the empire was viewed by inhabitants of the mother country, both past and present, is fair game. And whilst I agree with you that using the term "Dutch" can be "problematic" before a certain date, it is - for better or for worse - the way English speakers describe your countrymen. You might be interested to learn that the Japanese call the whole of the United Kingdom "igirisu", or "England". But that is what they say, and a discussion in Japanese on "igirisu" should not be clouded by a side debate aboout the fact that it is technically incorrect. Gsd2000 18:09, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Interesting that you come up with the Japanese. Do you know that for a long period, during the seventeenth till nineteenth centuries, the word for science in Japan was "rangaku", which means "dutch studies" or something close to that, since it were the Dutch (sometimes via German scholars) who introduced Japan to Western science and medicine, being the only nation (except for the Chinese) being allowed to trade with isolationist Japan? Indeed, it is technically incorrect, to honour the Dutch with all that has been written about science and technology in that age. Another comparison: in England and the rest of Europe everyone names the Netherlands "Holland". Holland, technically is only a small part (only two provinces) of the Netherlands. But we ourselves use Holland as well to describe the nation. Spanish people used to call this country Flanders -when the Low countries were dominated by the county of Flanders, not a part of the Netherlands (or Holland) anymore-, so, there is a lot going on with terminology. But one can conclude two things: 1) if the Japanese are 'wrong' about the UK, or we are all 'wrong' about Holland, should we use it as an excuse to be wrong about everything else as well? 2) Say, we accept that "igirisu" and "Holland" are correct now, we are dealing with history. What is correct now, might be wrong in the past. 3) In the end it is not "dutch" or even "empire" I want to make problematic, but "dutch empire". That is something different, although problematizing "dutch" can be a way of beginning to problematize "dutch empire". But, it is not very wise to do this too much. Then I should change all wiki-articles on all nations here. The same goes for many other countries. What is a nation, one can ask. What is a nation's empire? But, you are right, that should not be included in the article. Boudewijn8 19:47, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] on Google

One should not use google to prove that the Dutch Empire exists. First, since today there must be some 26,001 hits on "Dutch Empire", this page being the extra one. Compare this one: "Limburg Empire", 17 hits. "Cambridge Empire" 526 hits.

Well, I beg to differ. I hardly consider 17 or even 526 hits on the whole internet to be a substantial number. It's hard to argue with 26,000 though. I also suggest you read Google_test. But anyway, now that Google has scanned in the text of many books in books.google.com, you can do a very rapid search yourself and see the huge number of books that use this term without the anxiety it so obviously causes you. Gsd2000 23:42, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree. But there is no Cambridge Empire. Why 526 hits? If there is a debate on the usage of the term "Dutch Empire", I would understand that there are 26.000 hits. You also would get al the hits "there is no Dutch Empire" with your search. SO, it is no proof. I cannot falsify your statement with the counter search "no Dutch Empire", since "no Cambridge Empire" would also result in less or no hits.Boudewijn8 17:27, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I do agree with your logic there, if you only go by the number of hits. But if you read some of the text of the hits (particularly in books.google.com) you will see that the context in which the term is used is as a way of describing the Dutch overseas colonial possessions, in the same manner that this article does. I could not find any reference to a English language debate around usage of the term. Gsd2000 17:57, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
And I have read the article on google. Clever article, pointing out that to use google can be higly problematic, and it certainly does not devaluate my critical assessment of your google-supported evidence. ;-) Boudewijn8 17:27, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
What about books.google.com, where one is searching published books? That is no different to going into a library and reading the books themselves, except it is a million times faster and far easier to accomplish from the comfort of one's living room. Gsd2000 17:57, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I am aware of the fast growing online library of books.google and its immense opening-up capacities, but still, one needs to balance it with "real libraries". In that (or one should be able to browse through the online books only possible when permitted by the publishers (not often is this the case)) one is able to use the so-called "snowball method": browsing pages of a book, looking at footnotes, sources, references, looking up the book referred to, browse through the pages of another book. Searching with keywords should not be the only thing to do. Also, sometimes you never know that there is a debate going on, even in the English language, on another page, in another article in the same book in which you have found the "proof"! Imagine, I am writing an essay in which I state: "In contrary to the Cambridge scholar Gsd2000, I do not believe that the Dutch had an Empire from the 1600s till recent.", tell me, how are you going to find this in google? Your answer has not challenged this basic assumption of my paragraphs above. Boudewijn8
Fair points. I agree that I cannot prove that no English language book exists that criticises this term for the reasons you mentioned above, unless we both sit down together and read every single word of every single book ever published in English! The onus is on you to find and cite one :) NB I realise that there are Nederlands authors who debate this term who you have cited above, but we're talking about authors writing in Engels here. I do have a couple of shelves worth of books on European empires, and I have never seen this mentioned. Gsd2000 01:36, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] on Amsterdam and The Hague

Amsterdam is the ceremonial capital and the largest city of the Netherlands. The government seat is in The Hague, however. When using cities to describe the actions of the government, The Hague is always used.

[edit] Belgium

I think it's ridiculous to add Belgium in an article about the Dutch empire. The United Kingdom of the Netherlands was a merger of the Kingdom of the Netherlands with the Southern Netherlands (present day Belgium). The Belgian population was larger than the Dutch one, half of the time the capital was in Brussels, the parliament spoke French etc etc. It was the start of a new country.

[edit] Borneo

Maybe I'm being blind, but there doesn't appear to be any mention of Dutch Borneo (now Kalimantan) here. Or have I got it massively wrong? 86.133.246.224 19:37, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chronological theme

I'm surverying various states and empires across global history, and I've just got to remark on the structure of this article. As it stands, it's difficult to easily find sections describing the origin, high water marks, and dissolution of the various organizations that collectively equal the Dutch Empire. Rather, overall presentation is of a geographic nature, which is awkward given the French colonial empires, Russian Empire, and others, but I think the Italian Empire might offer the most parallels for the Dutch Empire.

And rather than leave this talk page as my only edit, I'll just be bold and rearrange some stuff and see where it leads.... I'd put a short chrono-summary of events at the Colonies section stub, but I'm not familiar, eloquent, or sourceful enough. Xaxafrad 00:57, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. It was actually a lot lot worse, about a year ago. The article was essentially a list [1]. Gsd2000 03:54, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dutch Empire Infobox

It has a typo: Artic instead of Arctic. Not sure who created the box and I'm not sure how to edit it either. ArchonMeld 22:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

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