Talk:Dungeons & Dragons

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Contents

[edit] "The game's commercial success led to lawsuits"

This sounds like there's a general rule that when something is a commercial success, lawsuits will follow. I don't think that is necessarily the case. I know what is meant, but it could be expressed more clearly. Unfortunately I can't think of a better way to express it right now. Perhaps you can. --Nczempin 13:03, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

When a sentence such as that implies causality, I usually make a simple edit like "was a factor of" or "was an element which" instead of only "led to." This is my solution to the problem. Just a simple change in syntax to make it sound more like a portion of the reason for an action and less like correlating events. Omnidragdor 04:02, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Lawsuits about royalties require some level of income, but a prerequisite is not the same as a cause. Better to simply date the various lawsuits and let the reader draw their own conclusions. Tussock 16:42, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Splitting the article

Since the amount of information legally reproducible greatly varies, I suggest that we split the article into this and "Older Versions." This would also make the article more accessible to a wider audience, who are looking for current information as opposed to a grand, detailed, legally questionable history. Piuro 23:46, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but can you explain in greater detain your concerns? /wangi 23:48, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Read the above section reguarding the OGL. Piuro 00:03, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I do not see the the problem (consider at least WP:NOT along with other guidelines), specifically make do you think warrants a split? Thanks/wangi 00:06, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Basically the article is concered with the latest edition and not gerenalizing about the game. Some of the specifics are directed at the d20 system allowed by the SRD/OGL. The game being 30 years old includes more than jsut the specifics of the last 6 years worth and its edition. This goes for more than jsut the main article, but any other articles such as the game mechanics one that specifiy for only the newest edition instead of being neutral and generalizing about the game itself. the "Editions" articles tells the differences, but the main article should be more general and not edition specific since it is not legal, nor appropriate to include all editions information within the main articles they should be in their own articles whatever is allowed them by copyright. shadzar|Talk|contribs 00:16, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

No offence meant, but could you clarify where you stand on that? Piuro 00:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I think what he's trying to say is that this article is more concerned about 3rd edition/3.5 and nothing earlier, so 1st and 2nd editions should be split into their own article. -Jeske (Complaints Hotline) 00:56, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
This article shoukd be a summary/overview of all editions. Thanks/wangi 01:01, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Right. But there is where the SRD/OGL comes into play. It only allows for the 3rd/d20 system edition to be reproduced under it guidliens or something. So the question would be then what specific information about other editions can/shoudl be included as a generalization of the game. OR what should be removed that represents only the 3rd/d20 system edition itself? shadzar|Talk|contribs 01:29, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I've not read into the situation, are you saying that because they have the CR on the 1st edition we cannot include the generic meaning under this term? Thanks/wangi 01:37, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
The OGL and d20 license are irrelevant. They are licenses; you, I, and other Wikipedians have not agreed to them (generally speaking, I'm sure some Wikipedians have). You only need to agree to it if you want to publish our own derivative works and don't have a fair use claim. Players and other "users" don't need to agree to it or even read it. Wikipedia needs no such license; it reproduces information under fair use. Ignore the OGL and maintain the article as though it was any other topic. — Alan De Smet | Talk 04:51, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Like here for example...

In the core rules available races are dwarf, elf, gnome, halfling, half-orc, half-elf, or human and available classes are barbarian, bard, cleric, druid, fighter, monk, paladin, ranger, rogue, sorcerer, or wizard, though many others of each are available from different supplements

This is specific to 3rd/d20, not the whole of (A)D&D. The races are the same in most version, but the classes listed are specifically biased towards a simgle edition...the latest edition of rules. That is where the question comes into play. Since the OGL/SRD allows for some things to be reproduced from the 3rd/d20 system editon of the rules and not other edition, how can the article be made neutral where it doesn't give the impression that the newest edition is the best or only version of the game? Change the classes back to broad groups of: Warrior, Wizard, Priest, and Rogue. These are in all editions, even though they have more specific names for certain classes within the group. Sorcerer, to stay with the same example; is new to the core rules for 3rd/d20 core rules as a name of character class. So should it be included in the main overview article of the game? Is there a way to be les specific about all edition and more general about the game itself, or does some thing in the article need to be split into their own edition specific articles? That is the question. How specific with each edition should the main article be? shadzar|Talk|contribs 02:10, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

We could probably manage two articles of equal size, one for the current ruleset, and one for the previous two. Piuro 04:37, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps what we need is a discussion of the commonalities between all of the rulesets, followed by a summary of the key differences. For the average reader, all of the rulesets describe essentially the same game, and certainly the "essence" of D&D is independent of what ruleset you are using. I think it would be most helpful for the reader if the differences between different versions of the game could be explained in relation to their practical function. In other words, why were these changes made in subsequent editions of the rules? Perhaps some were more oriented toward players with different styles of play and some were more oriented toward increasing profitability of the enterprise, etc. Gsmagassy 16:19, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Um, folks, Editions of Dungeons & Dragons already exists and does most of what is suggested here. My suggestion would be to improve that article and possibly shunt some material over to it over anything my quick skim of this section picked up. PurplePlatypus 19:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Right, I switched the template, saddly, there isnt a better one. Piuro 21:38, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
The problem is, PurplePlatypus, it isnt just this article, but ALL articles on (A)D&D are mostly specific to 3rd and later editions, forsaking the fact that earlier editions do not function the same way. So again the way to rectify it is what? Does fair use allow for the comparisions of the editions on their individual article pages like, game mechanics etc. And for those that are specific to only 3rd shouldn't the be noted as 3rd edition only and not true to previous editions? With so many articles how do we remove the systemic bias? I think I made the main article edition neutral by removing specifics held true only to 3rd+. But that doesn't help all the other articles. Supposed a 4th edition does come out and changes things greatly. Then people will have to go through and edit the specifics from 3rd to the new 4th. That is where I see the problem with any related article to being specific to any edition over the others. Why I suggest being as general as possible. Another concern made on RPG wikiproject was that D&D has so many pages while other games have but one main page to describe the game in general without going into specifics. Which might be the best route for D&D as well, rather than what appears to be someone or many people just throwing the entire SRD for 3rd onto Wikipedia as individual articles. Maybe a split isn't needed as much as removing related articles with excess details. shadzar|Talk|contribs 01:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Whoa, wait a minute. Just because other RPGs have less coverage does not mean we should be deleting D&D-related articles. The solution there, if you are concerned with balance, is to expand the articles on other RPGs. But I wouldn't be too worried about this issue in any case, because D&D is by far the most popular RPG, so it is natural that the coverage in Wikipedia of D&D would be more extensive than other RPGs. Put simply, D&D is a more notable subject for an encyclopedia, so deserves a more detailed treatment. Fairsing 05:25, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

For my 2 cents, I think the article is just the right length for a general overview of the game. Tobya 19:46, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I too think it is close to right size as well from a reading point of view. At 33 KB the page is slightly longer than the Wikipedia recommended maximum of 32 KB. Maybe a a little more trimming of the edition history (which already has it's own article) would bring it down to 32KB. The only part that looks too large relative to the rest of the article is the Influence subsection, maybe it could be expanded into it's own article and sumarised in the section here. - Waza 01:53, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Sticking previous edition information into a seperate article is a bad idea. The copyright situation is completely irrelevant (and silly; Wikipedia never agreed to the OGL or d20 licenses, it can include any information it would normally under fair use.) The strong bias of the current article toward 3e/d20 is unfortunate, but the fix is to include more historical information, not ghettoize the historical information into other articles. If simple length is an issue, then the 3e details should be pulled into their article, leaving this as a general overview and history that links to the details of each specific edition. — Alan De Smet | Talk 04:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I think most are in agreement that splitting the article into edition based articles is not the way to go, and no other obvious opportunities are apparent. While the article is still on the longish side it has now streamlined to 31KB just under the Wikpedia recommended maximum. While a bit more streamline and moving some info to linked articles may be approriate I can see no need for a split and think it is probably time to remove the split tag unless lots of people object. The split tag has been in place for 4 months and it has been almost a month since anyone commented on it. - Waza 03:08, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Concencus above is article should not be split along edition lines. as no further concencus has been reach on how to split or even wether to split I will remove tag from main article. - Waza 22:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] By the numbers

Am I right D&D was the first RPG to offer random character skill values? Trekphiler 01:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, since it was the first RPG in the modern sense period, that would stand to reason. (Depending, of course, on what you mean by "skill values". If you're using that phrase broadly enough to encompass ability scores, yes; if you're using it in the sense that D&D and many other RPGs currently define "skill", then no, on the grounds that D&D has never assigned such things randomly, and in fact I can only think of one RPG system that does off the top of my head.) PurplePlatypus 18:50, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] list of species in D&D

i think theres need for such an article. i find it strange there isnt one--Lygophile 07:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

No need, each creature/significant race has its own article. -Jeske (Mail goes here) 21:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
It would have to be a hell of a long article to contain every species listed in the various Monster Manuals and other source books in a meaningful way. BreathingMeat 21:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
so then they only need a template no?. I have spoken 19:22, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
We're discussing that on the Wikiproject D&D page. Discuss it there, not here. Regards, Jeske (Complaints Dept.) 05:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is D and D Satanic?

I have many freinds who think D&D is "satanic". I have asked "How?", but they can't give me a good argument. I just don't see were these petifile preists and deranged old geezers get off calling my favorite passtime "satanic". If anyone can find me a reason that they could even point or associate D&D to the religion of Satanism, then I will be obliged to listen to what Lavey has in common with Gygax. Thank you.

This is not a forum for general discussion on the subject, sorry. Try looking up some Dungeons and Dragons forums, and I believe there is a website specifically for Christian role-players. -Jeske (Mail goes here) 17:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Also see the subarticle Dungeons & Dragons controversies, which discusses religious complaints about the game in a little more detail. Dugwiki 17:46, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What gives?

Why are all these anons (and single-purpose accounts) trying to shorten the (already-small) section on Controversy and Notoriety by removing the Chick Tract pic? My guess is that they're trying to censor it out to keep parents from throwing slack at their kids (based off of one edit summary from someone who removed the image), despite Wikipedia not being censored for the purpose of minors. -Jeske (Complaints Dept.) 04:37, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

This is especially odd, since most of the D&D players I know have seen this tract, and laugh at it because it is so obsurd. I can't imagine why a player of the game would want to remove it. Trysha (talk) 07:41, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it's a D&D player doing it; the edit summary suggested he was trying to keep parents who could possibly have religious objections to the game from seeing it, implying that these people are either would-be players or just copycatting the original removal of the tract pic. -Jeske (Complaints Dept.) 08:00, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Campaign settings

I added a subsection of the different DnD campaign settings, please add/ develop it some more —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.211.249.230 (talk • contribs).

I would strongly suggest that any expansion should occur in the Dungeons & Dragons campaign settings article instead. Cheers --Pak21 19:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jack Chick Cartoon - To Remove?

Reading through this for the first time, I can't see any value in the cartoon frame towards the end. There is not really any reference to this particular item in the text, nor any real detail on links to satanism anyway - and it depicts a fictional event, not any real event. I propose that it be removed as it really seems to be there just as "a nice picture" at this point (and a handy plug for the book). If it has any great significance (I'm no expert after all) then it should be referred to in the text in some way.--Alecr 13:28, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I think it can be removed here - since it's in the article for criticism of D&D. Read through the Dungeons & Dragons controversies article for the context, then judge it. -Jeske (v^_^v) 13:59, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
OK. Looking at the other article it is relevant there, but if there is an article for controversies, why is the entire criticism section present in the main article? Any reason why this can't replaced with a link to the Dungeons & Dragons controversies instead? This would reduce the length of this main article and get it a bit more specific. Any objections please let me know and I'll probably do this around this time tomorrow if there are none. Cheers --Alecr 14:08, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
The "Criticism" section already links to it and is an overview of the article it's linked to. You really can't remove all but the link and hope someone can put two-and-two together - "criticism" is different from "Controversy" to the layman. -Jeske (v^_^v) 14:26, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Point taken. I will remove the picture only from this article, for the above reasons. In addition I feel that the use here does not really come under fair use of copyrighted material as it does not depict the subject of the article--ALECR 11:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reducing deleteing the "See Also" section

Some of my recent deletions to the "see also" section were readded. As there is only limited space in comments I have started this section to explain why I believe they should be deleted (and also deleting them one at if I believe I have a very strong justification). I have not been able to find a lot of information about how see also is ment to be used, but it seems to me it is not to have a long list of somewhat related topics. I believe it should be a brief list of topics of related interest to whole article with no otherwise appropriate place to link available in the article. Justification for readding links was that they were on the disambiguation page was not sufficient grounds to remove them. While I still believe that being different games and other things with the same name being on the disambig page is grounds, I also believe all these deletes can be justified on other grounds. Think about people reading the article if you are looking for something that is not a "fantasy tabletop role-playing game" as described in the first scentence of the article, are you going to scroll down to the "see also" section or follow the link to the disambig page from the top of the article. Which is more appropriate to contain the information. Having a long see also section simply adds unnecessary length to the article when the information is already easily available - Waza 21:30, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Dungeons and Dragons page keeps signing me out of Wikipedia

Very strange! Everytime I am on the actual Dungeon and Dragons page, but not including this it's talk page I am not signed into wikipedia. Every time I click off it I am signed in. No matter what I try I not signed in on the actual page. Never seen anything like this before, very weird. - Waza 22:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References Dead Links

The three references for Origins Awards currently link to invalid web pages. And the official site does not appear to have a listing of old awards at present. I found a web archive of the 2000 Award reference [1] on the Internet Archive. I am not sure what is the correct procedure to do when you have a previously refenced item, which was correct on date show as time accessed, but no currently available reference can be found. It seems pointless to have a dead link there, but if removed will people say to cite a reference of remove the information? - Waza 23:50, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I think there's a page in the Wikipedia: section about bad links. If I find it, I'll leave it here. -Jeske (v^_^v) 23:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC) EDIT: Found it: Wikipedia:Using the Wayback Machine.
Thanks, the Wayback Machine is on the Internet Archive I refered to above to find an alternative to one of the dead links, the use page will help me use it correctly. Unfortuneately it did not contain pages on the other two awards, anyone with any idea on how to deal with them? - Waza 02:58, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Strangely while not found when searching for the 1977 and 1989 pages I was able to browse to them on the wayback machine from the 200 page, so have now linked the pages I browsed to. - Waza 05:59, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I tracked down the new pages and linked them up. — Alan De Smet | Talk 21:17, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The d3?

I'm a bit confused. The d3...it's used often, but it can't even exist! --Das654 20:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, 1d3 is equal to 1d6/2 (i.e. the result of a d6 roll divided by 2). Likewise, 1d2 is 1d4/2. -Jeske (v^_^v) 21:07, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually it does exist in two possible versions, see Dice#Rarer_variations. But is very rare and is most often simulated as Jeske says. - Waza 21:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Note that when simulating it, you must round up, not down as you do in all other cases in D&D. As for a d2, you don't need a d4 for that; you can use any die with an even number of sides, or even simply a coin flip. PurplePlatypus 22:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I see now. --Das654 20:33, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Further Reading

I do not have access to most of the material in this section, but it appears from the titles it may be more appropriate to move some to the more Generic Role-playing game article if they are not D&D specific. Would anyone with these books care to move them and/or comment. - Waza 11:22, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Some of them are no-brainers (Such as "Studies about Fantasy Role-Playing Games") just from the title, but the ones by Gygax need to be seriously examined (I say the above not out of owning the material, but by reading their titles). -Jeske (v^_^v) 19:54, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I would actually say Studies about Fantasy Role-Playing Games should be one kept, because despite the title if you actually follow the link you will see a large proportion of the studies refered to are specifically about D&D. It is because of this link I did not "judge a book by it's cover (title)" and just move the books I do not have. This is why I am asking those that do have them, or have read them in the past, to comment. - Waza 21:51, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Influences seperate article?

I have come across an article List of sources and inspirations for elements in Dungeons & Dragons which is an orphaned article. The article needs work and references, the title seems clunky and it probably needs moving, but keeping this in mind is could this possibly be a main article linked off Dungeons_&_Dragons#Sources_and_Influences_on_the_Development_of_D.26D section of this article? - Waza 11:58, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

It has its flaws, but it seems like a valuable article. Tracing the inspirations for D&D definately seems encyclopedic. I'm going to Be Bold and link it over. — Alan De Smet | Talk 21:10, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Now that it's linked, further discussion probably belongs at Talk:List of sources and inspirations for elements in Dungeons & Dragons. (By the way, thanks Waza for all the great work on this article.) — Alan De Smet | Talk 21:17, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moving Forward towards a Featured Article

Dungeons & Dragons has twice before been nominated for consideration as a Featured Article. I believe now it is getting very close to an article that should qualify for this honour. I would not like to think that it would be rushed to nomination and fail a third time so feel it is time to start a discussion of how those who are interested should move forward to this point, here is what I feel we need to do:

  1. Consider the previous nominations and responses at the time:
    * Approximately this article was nominated on 05 January 2005 to this response.
    * Approximately this article was nominated on 19 October 2005 to this response. A Peer Review was also done before this nomination on 13 October 2005.
    Make sure that the concerns raised at these times have actually been addressed, and not reintroducted into the article.
  2. Carefully examine the Featured article criteria, discuss them on this pages as refering to the article and change the article so it complies with these criteria.
  3. Only after steps (1) and (2) request a new peer review
  4. After allowing allowing time for review to occur and apply info from the peer review, if there is a concesus of those making positive contributions to this article, nominate as a Featured Article Candidate.

- Waza 10:20, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Featured Article Criteria Checklist & Comment Space

Based on my suggestion above, point (2), that the Featured article criteria should be carefully examined and discussed on this page, I have put together a structure based on the criteria. I have pulled these headings and comments direct from Featured Article Criteria, please add any comments about how they related to the article under each, signing them as normal. I envisage that this setion will act as a structured checklist to make sure all aspects of bringing this article to featured article standard are properly considered and addressed. - Waza 10:57, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I thought it would be helpful for comparison to look at similar type articles that have achieved featured status. There are no RPG's with featured status, but there are a few board and card games we may look at to get ideas of what can be done to this article. Featured Articles about games are Monopoly (game), History of the board game Monopoly, Chess and Blackjack. Game articles that are former featured articles include games articles Go (board game) and Poker, while these are now below the standard for a featured article, the old featured version can be looked at. Of course it is useful to look at any featured articles for inspiration, not just games related ones. - Waza 04:06, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Here is a text listing of the criteria to be crossed out as each is met as per the discussion below. In addition to meeting the requirements for all Wikipedia articles, it has the following attributes:

  1. It is well written, comprehensive, factually accurate, neutral and stable.
    • (a) "Well written" means that the prose is compelling, even brilliant.
    • (b) "Comprehensive" means that the article does not neglect major facts and details.
    • (c) "Factually accurate" means that claims are verifiable against reliable sources and accurately present the related body of published knowledge. Claims are supported with specific evidence and external citations (see verifiability and reliable sources); this involves the provision of a "References" section in which sources are set out and, where appropriate, complemented by inline citations. See citing sources for information on when and how extensively references are provided and for suggestions on formatting references; for articles with footnotes or endnotes, the meta:cite format is recommended.
    • (d) "Neutral" means that the article presents views fairly and without bias (see neutral point of view); however, articles need not give minority views equal coverage (see undue weight).
    • (e) "Stable" means that the article is not the subject of ongoing edit wars and that its content does not change significantly from day to day; vandalism reverts and improvements based on reviewers' suggestions do not apply.
  2. It complies with the standards set out in the manual of style and relevant WikiProjects, including:
    • (a) a concise lead section that summarizes the entire topic and prepares the reader for the higher level of detail in the subsequent sections;
    • (b) a proper system of hierarchical headings; and
    • (c) a substantial but not overwhelming table of contents (see section help).
  3. It should have images if they are appropriate to the subject, with succinct captions and acceptable copyright status. If fair use images are used, they must meet the criteria for fair use images and be labeled accordingly.
  4. It is of appropriate length, staying focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).


[edit] Well written, comprehensive, factually accurate, neutral and stable

[edit] Well written

means that the prose is compelling, even brilliant.

[edit] Comprehensive

means that the article does not neglect major facts and details.

  • Criteria Met This is one criteria I believe is clearly shown to be met. The basic sections of the article have not been added to for some time despite much work beinfg done by a number of editors. Length restraints must be balanced against this criteria and this balance is being held with other articles refered to to expand sections with more details. No recent suggestion have been made for new information that is agreed upon, most are refered to relevant detail article. - Waza 11:35, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Factually accurate

means that claims are verifiable against reliable sources and accurately present the related body of published knowledge. Claims are supported with specific evidence and external citations (see verifiability and reliable sources); this involves the provision of a "References" section in which sources are set out and, where appropriate, complemented by inline citations. See citing sources for information on when and how extensively references are provided and for suggestions on formatting references; for articles with footnotes or endnotes, the meta:cite format is recommended.

  • This is one area that may need some work. References and note citations are correctly formatted and the article is factual. However while the number of citations has greatly improved, there could be more still to show that the article is factual and not original research. While some suggest "One citation for each sentence!", this may be overkill, but then again it won't hurt. We need to identify everything that could be questioned and apply reference notes. If you see something in the article that could be questioned please add a note! If you see something that needs one but you can't find a relevant reference then please add a Template:Citation needed into the article at the appropriate point. Then when we see this[citation needed] others what we need to look for. - Waza 01:18, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I have been unable to find a reference to cite for:

    Outside of the gaming community, D&D has become a metonym used to refer to roleplaying games in general.

    I know it is true because I have seen and heard it so many times. From my mother who wold call it "playing D&D" no matter if we were playing Traveller, Gamma World, Car Wars or even other games as diverse as Kingmaker. To it's use in acronyms like BADD - Bothered About Dungeons and Dragons who was opposed to all RPG's. And even from gamers themselves who don't want to explain to non gamers that there are RPG's other than D&D. However original research does not count on Wikipedia, and I have not been able to find an actual reference for this statement. Unless someone else can find a suitable reference I think we need to remove this statement. - Waza 01:27, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
    • I have removed all the citations needed I marked several weeks ago as questionable material by either finding a citatin or deleting material in question where I could not find a reference to support it (please only read this material if you also add an appropriate citation) This may be enough to meet this criteria, I believe there is nothing that is questionable that is not covered by a citation or in the general references. It is probably still a good idea to add more citations, most of the remaining needs should be enough to be a footnote refering to appropriate page or section of an existing general reference. - Waza 11:17, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
    • More than doubled the amount of inline citations in the past week. Most additions refer to specific pages of items already listed in References section. But we still need more. Atleast one per paragraph, one per line is not too many. You may note my citations tend to go to a selection of the references that I have easy access to. PLease help by adding more citations, particularly to those I have not used much (Like very original brown/white box, Holmes' blue box, 2nd edition AD&D and D&D v3.0) - Waza 02:48, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
  • While more citations cannot hurt there are now many times the number than when I started this section. Several unsourced statement have been modified or deleted. I feel this is now criteria met - Waza 06:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutral

means that the article presents views fairly and without bias (see neutral point of view); however, articles need not give minority views equal coverage (see undue weight).

  • Criteria Met - again this is one that can be a bit subjective. It does appear to be neutral to me as I read it, but I am not sure what evidence I could give to support that. So in the lack of any evidence that it is not neutral, I will declare that it is is. IF you can see any evidence that article is not neutral then please correct or provide evidence/examples here - Waza 01:33, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stable

means that the article is not the subject of ongoing edit wars and that its content does not change significantly from day to day; vandalism reverts and improvements based on reviewers' suggestions do not apply.

  • Criteria Met No major recent changes at all. Even looking back over a longer period to previous featured article nominations show while there has been a great improvement and lots of info spun off into particular topic articles the basic structure of the information and content has changed little in over two years. - Waza 01:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Complies with the standards set out in the manual of style and relevant WikiProjects

The obvious relevant Wikiproject is Wikipedia:WikiProject Dungeons & Dragons. As this however is a unique article in the context of this project strong consideration should also be given to parent Wikipedia:WikiProject Role-playing games and the style guidelines for an article about a role-playing game. Should also look at other project mentioned at the top of this article, grandparent project Wikipedia:WikiProject Board and table games. - Waza 00:06, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Concise lead section

that summarizes the entire topic and prepares the reader for the higher level of detail in the subsequent sections;

  • Very, very good lead section but I can suggest some areas that may be able to be improved. It has a bold title, correct location to the table of contents, established context and appropriate length as per Wikipedia:Lead section. It does provide a good accessable overview of the whole article, with a possible concern in the last paragraph. While valuable introductory information establishing the popularity of the game,this is not really expanded in the main article. Possibly we need to consider where this material is included in the article? Should it be replaced in the leader with a summary of "Related Products", "References in Popular Culture" and "Controversy and notoriety"? As these are not really covered yet in the leader. - Waza 23:42, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
My concerns above have been met, but there are two citations needed in the leader that require completion before the leader can be considered complete. - Waza 11:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Citations done (in one case, original research removed in the other). Leader complete. Criteria Met. - Waza 07:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proper system of hierarchical headings

[edit] Substantial but not overwhelming table of contents

(see section help).

  • Criteria Met - this one seems a bit subjective, but I cannot see any reason why TOC is not "Substantial but not overwhelming". Anyone who disagrees please say why - Waza 00:54, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Images appropriate to the subject

with succinct captions and acceptable copyright status. If fair use images are used, they must meet the criteria for fair use images and be labeled accordingly.

  • Images are appropriate with captions. However I believe there is still work to be done with fair use images. These images need a detailed fair use rationale for each use, as described on Help:Image page. That means something needs to be added to the page of every fair use image used in the Dungeons & Dragons article explaining why it is fair use in particular to use it on the Dungeons & Dragons page. - Waza 23:55, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Criteria Met - I have added fair use reasons specific to this article for all the remaining required images (about half were already done). Please remember to check these when checking through the article. - Waza 03:15, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Most images do not have the hidden text pointing to the fair use rationale as required. --Pak21 08:32, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
What do you mean by this? Can you please point to the requirement and provide an example of an image you think meets the requirement? Johntex\talk
Please read Help:Image page#Fair_use_rationale as referenced above. "This should be done in two places. Firstly, add the following hidden text in the article: <!-- FAIR USE of IMAGENAME.jpg: see image description page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:IMAGENAME.jpg for rationale -->". This has not been done for most of the images in the article. Trivial, but necessary. --Pak21 09:49, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Agreed - Trivial but necessary, thanks for pointing it out. Will try to do when I get chance, but anyone else feel free to jump in first. - Waza 11:08, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I have added the relevant tag of this type to each picture that was missing it - Waza 04:40, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Appropriate length

staying focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).

[edit] Rename "Sources and Influences on the Development of D&D" section?

Currently List of sources and inspirations for elements in Dungeons & Dragons is the main article for the section here entitled "Sources and Influences on the Development of D&D." I'm planning on renaming "List of..." because it's not really a list, but a proper (if immature) article. In the interests of symmetry I plan on renaming it to match the section title here ("Sources and..."). So my real point: is that section title "Sources and Influences on the Development of D&D" reasonably solid? Now would be a good time to consider a new name if one would be an improvement so that the section title and main article are nicely parallel. The current section title seems overly long and redundant to me. Perhaps the more terse "Sources and Influences"? Or even the extremely aggressive "Influences"? My preference is probably for simply "Influences," but ultimately I don't have a strong opinion, I would just like to know that the name was reasonably stable. — Alan De Smet | Talk 23:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you could definately leave "the development of" out, but it is difficult to word something concise as sources and influence seem to need a different verb, "on" and "of" respectively. It needs to distinguish from the existing "Influences" section (which is an influences of D&D on other things). Maybe the two sub-sections of "Game History" with influences in the title could be changed to "Influences on D&D" and "Influences of D&D" respectively. But I am very open to better ideas as I am concerned such similar titles could generate confusion. - Waza 00:00, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The title Sources and Influences on the Development of Dungeons and Dragons came about because the section was initially named Influences, which was deemed to be too similar to the title of the Influence section, which documents the effects that D&D has had on subsequent popular culture. The longish title was selected because it seemed to unambiguously reflect the content. Having said this, I think Sources and Influence is appropriate enough. BreathingMeat 00:09, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How do you play?

I'm don't really know how to play D&D, but i'm willing to learn. Do any of you know where I can find a game and rulebook? Ya know, with the dice, the board, those little guys and a character sheet? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vivi Leonhart (talk • contribs) 16:40, March 6, 2007.

Not the place, but I'd suggest looking through Amazon or secondhand bookstores. Minis aren't necessary, and what the hell is a board? -Jeske (v^_^v) 22:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Delete links to Goodman Games, Troll Lord Games, and OSRIC?

The article has a few mid-article links to external sites. At the very least, Goodman Games, Troll Lord Games, and OSRIC have links. Are these appropriate? If the subject is noteworthy enough to deserve further details, they deserve full Wikipedia articles and the links should go there. If the purpose of the link is to act as a citation, the link should be moved into a <ref>. Otherwise, I can't see any reason to include them. — Alan De Smet | Talk 02:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I have been considering that these links should possibly be moved into the notes section via <ref> - Waza 02:14, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I have removed thes to footnotes, except Troll Lord Games which is gone (link is on Castles & Crusades and also subpage in existing footnote here. - Waza 11:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notes and References

Just wanted to make a few comments on the principles I have been using to create notes and references in this article as this topic has not really been discussed recently and was raised in peer review feedback.
The sources both in the references and footnotes use Wikipedia:Citation templates except in a few cases where the unusal format is required to references the peculiarities of a game as it varies from standard reference types. As these templates are based on the Harvard Referencing style, extrapolations of unusual cases have been based on trying to follow the style of these. General sources which apply to the article as a whole or are refered to numerous times are in the references section, specific sources applicable to one or two points only are in the notes. The footnotes are all one of three types:

  1. A reference by author and data to one of the general sources in the References section, with page number and section heading or quote where relevant.
  2. A full citaion in the same format as those in the references section.
  3. An explanatory note of the text footnoted or a quotation, followed by the Source as per (1) or (2).

Some of the more unusual types of sources to be dealt with include:

  1. Books without page numbers, particularly Jonhson et al. (2004). This book has several authors listed inside the back cover, who have all been listed as authors of the book as a whole in the references section. For particular citations I have referenced author and section name and the chapter it occured in as there is no page numbers to reference by.
  2. Boxed sets have been listed as a set, particularly as in these cases, unlike some other games such as Warhammer, the box has an overall ISBN and author but the individual books do not. When refering to a particular item in the box have referenced the name of the book/handout/etc in the reference.
  3. Dragon/The Dragon/Dragon Magazine title given as of time of article but each linked to Dragon (magazine) to show they are the same journal. This title is unusual in that it has over all issue numbers (as per magazines) as well as Vol. and No. (as per journals). For earlier issue all three numbers are on the cover, latter issues show the latter two on the contents page only. All three are included by adding the issue number as it appeared on the cover to the title but unlinked. In the template | volume = Vol. Number | issue = No. Number (including descriptive text of these numbers)

The notes currently mostly conform to these standards described above, and I am currently working through changing those that don't. Please help in article and/or agree/disagree/discus with above below. - Waza 10:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I have just found the page numbers in Jonhson et al. (2004). They are hidden in d% in the middle right of each right hand side page only. I will now add then into the citations. - Waza 20:59, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External link

I added this to the external links section twice, but Jeske keeps reverting it, giving the bogus reason that webcomics can be looked up in Dragon Magazine:

The fact that Dragon Magazine, or any other publication for that matter, has similar material in it in no way supports non-inclusion in Wikipedia. If we weren't allowed to include topics or subject matter in Wikipedia that was covered somewhere else, Wikipedia would be empty!

Jeske, your non-sequitur is not a valid reason for reverting the addition of the above link. The reason you gave has nothing to do with Wikipedia policy, and therefore reflects your personal opinions and biases, showing an intolerance for others' edits and a tendency toward article ownership. See WP:OWN.

I've added the link again, because it is particularly relevant as it covers many aspects of D&D roleplay. It is humorous, yes, but it is on the mark. Each episode also includes commentary by the author on DM'ing D&D campaigns, which makes the link even more relevant.

The comic highlights many of the pitfalls and mistakes that a DM can make, and is therefore very useful. And if you ever wanted to run your players through Tolkein's epic adventure, this comic will convince you otherwise, as it points out all the design flaws from a role-playing and D&D standpoint.

An immensely entertaining and informative link.

Chill Factor Five 13:35, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Jeske was correct to remove the link, unless there are any reliable sources which note DM of the Rings as being in any way more notable than the vast number of other D&D webcomics out there. Without such references, adding the link (especially with comments such as "funny as hell") is original research, pure and simple. You would also be advised to be more civil in your comments, which could be viewed as a personal attack. --Pak21 14:49, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree. The link is of marginal value and is non-notable in the context of this article. I have removed it. Fairsing 15:46, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
As a fan of D&D and LOTR movies I found it very funny and would not mind if it is found a place to link to it on Wikipedia, however this article is definately not the place. Firstly other sources in this article show while LOTR, because of the profile it gave fantasy fiction, an indirect source on D&D, it is not one of the prime fantasy influences on D&D. Secondly there is nothing in this external link to specify the game is D&D, while it probably is it could also be one of several other Fantasy Roleplaying games. Maybe ask over at Wikipedia:WikiProject Role-playing games and Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth to see if anyone there can suggest an appropriate location to link this. - Waza 20:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Surely it has no place anywhere on Wikipedia until such time as its notability is established? BreathingMeat 21:47, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Depends on the article or section context it may be suitable for an external link or even a reference for example an article about humour in RPG's or parody's of LOTR or because of explainatory notes on commong RPG refeering mistakes. It all depends on the context of how it is used,and would need to be looked at on a case by case basis. Chill obviously feels strongly about this website, and while it does not fit here I was just trying to offer constructive suggestions for how it might be of use. - Waza 23:08, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Excuse me? If I was trying to own articles, I'd be admonished over on Beequeen, Mojanbo, Yukimenoko, and every other 4th-generation Pokémon article, where a firestorm has raged for the past few weeks thanks to a leak, Serebii.net, and debates over WP:NOT, WP:ATT, and WP:RS. I'm not trying to own any article, but I know when a link is spam and/or when info is unreliable, and the fact you inserted a blatant point-of-view comment on your link only gave me more impetus to revert it. Don't blame me for doing my job, blame yourself for not realizing that, if not me, than someone else would revert it as spam anyhow. -Jeske (v^_^v) 03:50, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Elfish Gene

Alan Re: Elfish Gene. The book's out right now - available on Amazon.co.uk. It offers a look at the culture of early D&D and shows what it's actually like to play the game - Houndstooth. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Houndstoothuk (talk • contribs) 02:26, March 30, 2007. (The preceeding was copied by User:Alan De Smet from User talk:Alan De Smet as this is the more appropriate place to discuss it.)

Indeed, amazon.co.uk does offer it. I'm impressed that they're offering to deliver it by April 3rd, given that the release date is "6 April 2007." But I'll believe it. I'm still not convinced of the utility of the link. It certainly appears very new; maybe it would be better to give it some time so other people can check it out. It will also be nice to have reviews be written so peple can get a sense of how useful of a book it is. Out of curiousity, do you have any connection to the author or publisher? — Alan De Smet | Talk 00:39, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I suppose I'm partially put off that it's described as "novelist's laugh-out-loud funny memoir of his nerdish, fantasy addicted youth in 80's Coventry." That doesn't say "useful reference work" to me. I'm reminded of Wil Wheaton's Dancing Barefoot, which one could similarly argue is a useful reference for Star Trek: The Next Generation. — Alan De Smet | Talk 00:52, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I say give it time and see if the book really is a useful reference, since one person's D&D experience differs from somebody else's. -Jeske (v^_^v) 02:08, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Has anyone actually read this book? Though the subtitle has D&D in it, it's publishers desription doesn't sound too hopeful that it has a lot to say about D&D itself, but rather it appears to be a comedy about a geeky teenagers even if based on fact. Maybe it will make a good reference for References in popular culture which talks about D&D being presented as a geek stereotype, or possibly it will have broader information, but it looks at this stage no one has read it to find out. Quite likely it would fit in List of Dungeons & Dragons popular culture references but even then it probably should wait until it is actually released before confirming it has a place there. - Waza 02:14, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
We cannot use the book as a reference of any kind before it is published. BreathingMeat 03:29, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I have read the book. While it isn't a reference work it does contain a lot of description on how the game is played and how it links to other aspects of popular culture - music, art and books. It also contains a lot of discussion on D&D's supposed links to the occult. The Elfish Gene is a mass market book written by an established novelist and put out by a major publishing house. It will therefore have a high profile. I think it would be useful to Wikipedia users to see it included in some way on the page. It's also, as far as I know, the first time a memoir of D&D has been published. Publication dates are only nominal for most books. In fact books appear in the shops up to two weeks before or even a month after the official publication date. It depends on stock, supply chain and whether book shop staff can be bothered to put the copies out on the shelves. If this is not the place to put it on Wikipedia, where is? I do know the author very well. Does that prevent me posting here? Sorry if it does. Houndstoothuk 16:08, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't prevent you posting, but it can lead to a conflict-of-interest. Read Waza's last comment (Dated 2:14 AM March 31). -Jeske (v^_^v) 16:39, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Influences - unreferencable statements

I have been hunting high and low for references to support the information from the article as follows:

Dungeons & Dragons and the games it influenced also fed back into the genre's origin—miniatures wargames—with combat strategy games like Battletech, Warhammer Fantasy Battles and Warhammer 40,000. Collectible card games, like Magic: The Gathering, were also heavily influenced by Dungeons & Dragons and its legacy.

I have been unable to find anything. the closest is this web page http://logosresourcepages.org/Occult/magic-g.htm which says that the creators of Magic were fantasy role-playing enthusiasts. Lacking any sources I can see the only way forward is to delete these scentences. However as they seem to be statements that may be true I thought I would ask here first if anyone else can point to any references. Of the four pages linked only MtG wikipedia article even mentions D&D and that is a single unsourced statement:

Although the original concept of the game drew heavily from the motifs of traditional fantasy role-playing games such as Dungeons & Dragons, Magic bears little resemblance to pencil-and-paper adventure games.

Any objections to deleting please note here, or any sources to allow keeping of this pleas add in article. - Waza 02:43, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Search the text for the word influenced warhammer, warhammer. As you say, I can't find that Magic:TG was influenced by D&D, but there's lots of articles that say the creator was a D&D player, like this. Not alot there, you make the call. - Peregrine Fisher 04:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

All this has been removed except influence on Warhammer Fantasy Battle which is now references with http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/ingenre04aug04.html warhammer - Waza 05:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

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