Talk:Dune (novel)

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Contents

[edit] Specific quote about Dune

I distinctly and specifically remember reading a quote or article that said Frank Herbert's conception of the story of Dune finished with God Emperor of Dune. Am I making this up or can someone verify this for me? Matrixfusion 03:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV bias

Some wise guy has been trying to invoke the hate of the innumerable legions of Dune fans. He has decided it funny to write this: ...nce fiction, Dune is popularly considered one of the most boring science fiction novels of all time, and is frequently cited as the worse-selling science fiction novel in history[1]. Dune spawned five hundred sequels written by Herbert, and inspired a film adaptation by Dav....

Some wise guy has been trying to invoke the hate of the innumerable legions of Dune fans. He has decided it funny to write this:

"Dune was a SF landmarks for a number of reasons:" all of which are entirely the POV of the author. --orthogonal 22:49, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Hm! I wrote the section you are refering to, and I agree I have a POV in favour of Frank Herbert and Dune. My points however are not entirely my POV as you suggest. I'm sure the reasons are overly positive and need to be be toned down, but the reasons in a toned down version are the reasons are0 that Dune is considered a landmark novel. And Dune is quite obviously a landmark Science Fiction novel from any perspective you would like to take. --ChrisG 23:02, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
We don't actually want to see your POV in Wikipedia; if yours can get in, then so can that of every Dune-hater, and I'm sure you wouldn't like that! Dune is indeed a landmark, and there are plenty of SF histories and critics who will be happy to make the authoritative claim for you; for instance Trillion Year Spree has a couple pages on it, and includes the observation that Dune is notable more for the interweaving of ideas, since all the specific ideas had appeared already somewhere. --Stan 03:24, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Rubbish. Everybody writes from a point of view, one just does their best to be as NPOV as possible. It is from the interaction of POV's from different people that you get some form of NPOV. Nobody can write about something they are enthusiastic about without some form of POV. I acknowledge that and I would be more than happy if someone more critical edited the article. : ChrisG 11:11, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I think maybe you don't understand NPOV yet. There's nothing wrong with enthusiasm, and most people choose to work on things that interest them, but the readers (who are ultimately the reason for doing all this) are not really interested in your personal opinions on a topic, and really don't want to be misled into thinking that your opinion is somehow universal. It's also not a good idea to add in lots of POV, and expect other people to clean it up; if that never happens, the readers are being misled again. If you can't think of how to express something neutrally, better just to leave it out, or ask for advice on the talk page. There's always time to expand an article, while it's almost impossible to track down all the readers and let them know that a mistaken article has been fixed. --Stan 17:03, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I disagree with you quite profoundly. I believe that no-one is capable of true NPOV without the interaction of other people. You believe that you (and presumably others) are capable of NPOV from the start. I think you are far too optimistic about your lack of bias. Everyone is biased, the issue is whether you can rise above your lack of bias when it is pointed out to you. Obviously perceiving reality truly is ideal, but from a philosophical point of view to believe that you have or will ever have that epistemological foundation is rather naive. It is an ideal to aspire to, not a goal you will ever achieve.
As a final point I don't think the article is particularly far off NPOV as it presently stands, certainly there are many more articles far further away. I've now quoted Clarke, Heinlein, the Library Journal, the New York Times Book review and Spark Notes. The views presented in the article are hardly in the minority. Nor were the views I initially stated, before I bothered to find the quotes to back them up, rather than write from memory. --ChrisG 10:45, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Don't read in more than what I said; I agree that NPOV is a goal, not something that springs fully formed from one's forehead. But it's a bad approach to say that because everybody inherently has a POV, there's no point in trying to write neutrally to begin with. Since you've filled in this article to a much greater depth than any other WP editor, it is to some extent "yours" now; other Wikipedians will tend to defer to your judgment, and this very discussion may be all the interaction that the article ever gets. For instance, the quotes and attributions are pretty good now, but I think the net effect is still to overstate the significance of Dune. Even so, I don't have the time or resources to dig up the Dune-hating critics' comments I remember reading, so the slant will remain until you or somebody else fixes it. --Stan 14:29, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I don't see that it will be a long term problem. As Wikipedia grows more popular, the number of contributors will vastly increase. At the moment people are spread thin throughout the encyclopedia but that will not be the case in a few years. And so any significant article will have multiple interested contributors and NPOV will be achieved. As to this article, I'm sure there are many Dune haters out there, but how many of those hate Science Fiction on principle? Incidentally I never asserted that one shouldn't attempt to write from NPOV, I just said that it is innately impossible, especially when you are writing about something you are enthusiastic about. It's better to accept that, than delude ourselves that we have it. --ChrisG 14:45, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

[edit] POV in Dune?

Dune (novel), revision of 14:52, 27 Oct 2003, seems to have added quite a bit of POV. Or is it just me? --orthogonal 22:52, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Orthogonal is referring to this diff in the Dune (novel) article. IMO bold assertions like those made in that addition need some external authoritative sources. What was the thinking behind bringing this to the Village Pump? --Pete 00:13, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I figured it would be noticed in pump. (It was, the OP of that revision toned it down some (but not, I think, enough).) Where should I have posted this? --orthogonal 02:49, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Best place is to put it on the Discussion page for the article. Wikipedians listing Dune for "monitoring" will pick up that uyou added something there. Include a pertinent statement in the "Summary" Editing stuff like this should just be discussed among those working on the specific page, and the Discussion page keeps a record of questions, disputes, resolutions where it is most pertinent. --Marshman 03:19, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

After a little research, it seems clear to me that Dune is very widely considered to be a "landmark novel". Therefore by saying this, surely the editor is stating a fact? --Anjouli 06:42, 24 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Indeed he is; Dune has not only sold remarkably well for a sci-fi novel, it has received serious critical attention, and is usually included in courses on Sci-Fi literature. The problem lies more in how he says, and lack of any specifics. -- Maru Dubshinki 07:37 PM Saturday, 12 March 2005

[edit] Dune Timeline

Some years ago I made a more correct timeline for dune because the one made by the author of Dune Encyclopedia did a pretty bad job (and the Encyclopedia is NOT canon!) ;)


1. 201 - 108 BG Butlerian Jihad "two cruel generations" Appendix II / V

2. ~11 200 The 20th century "Mankind's movement through deep space placed a unique stamp on religion during the one hundred and ten centuries that preceded the Butlerian Jihad. " Appendix II


3. 10 191 House Atreides moved to Arrakis (Dune)


~11200 -2000 + 10 191 = ~19391 AD --MilesTeg

I agree this should be changed in the article. At the very least, the Dune Encyclopedia isn't canonical, so figuring the Dune timeline from it shouldn't be presented as such. The Encyclopedia appears to be a few thousand years off.
(But: shouldn't you add 2000, not subtract it? ~2000 years from 1 BC/AD to space travel, 11000 years from space travel to the Butlerian Jihad, 200 years from the Butlerian Jihad to the Guild, 10191 years from the Guild to Dune; when you add them all, it's about 23391 years from 1 BC/AD to Dune, or 23391 AD.) --Anonymous
You are right.
10191 AG = 23391 AD
The timeline that proves it can be found here: http://home.t-online.de/home/duneweb/welt/zeittafel.html
I'm inclined to trust these numbers a lot more than something coming from the Dune Encyclopedia, because (a) it comes from Frank Herbert's writing, (b) it comes from the original Dune novel, and (c) it includes references (which I verified -- good work!).
--MilesTeg
I just changed the Dating System in the article. I´m 100% sure about the data but I´m not so sure about my english ;)

[edit] Dune universe

I've created a Dune universe article and have therefore removed that type of material from this article; which was serving as both a article on the novel and the universe. --ChrisG 22:20, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Synopsis

Duplicated material from teaser synopsis for possible later merging:

Dune is the tale of a political conflict among three noble houses: House Atreides, House Harkonnen and House Corrino, in the galactic Empire ruled by Shaddam IV of House Corrino, "Padishah Emperor of the Known Universe," at a time of great political instability.

House Corrino's power is supported by military might (their legions of 'Sardaukar' warrior-fanatics are a legendary force popularly considered unbeatable), economic power (they own a controlling stake in the CHOAM corporation, which oversees all interstellar commerce), and political influence, (support from the Spacing Guild, and the Bene Gesserit). Shaddam IV, however, succeeded his father due to the influence and assistance of the Bene Gesserit and the tacit approval of the Guild, who now enjoy considerable influence over the throne.

The political instability of the Emperor is exacerbated by the Bene Gesserit, who have prevented Shaddam IV from producing a male heir and ignited competition among the Great Houses while undermining the power of House Corrino. Concurrently, their centuries-old breeding program to produce the Kwisatz Haderach is nearing fruition.

Shaddam IV sees House Atreides as a threat to his throne. Duke Leto Atreides has become very popular — and powerful — among the noble houses of the Imperium in the Landsraad. In addition, The Duke has created a military force similar to the Sardaukar in combat prowess and dedication, but on a smaller scale. The Emperor fears that it would be a matter of time before the Atreides forces could equal or surpasses his dreaded Sardaukar.

The Emperor decides that House Atreides must be destroyed, but realizes that an open attack on the popular Duke Atreides and his House could unite the individual Houses of the Landsraad against House Corrino (each nobleman would fear being the next House to be isolated and destroyed, and all might unite against the Emperor to prevent this). For this reason, the Emperor conceives of a devious conspiracy using the Atreides's ancient enemies, House Harkonnen, as a weapon against the Duke. Baron Vladimir Harkonnen willingly participates in the plot because of his personal hatred toward the Duke and his House and because he believes he will reap substantial gains in personal and familial power by serving the Emperor, potentially marrying his heir Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen to a Corrino daughter and placing him on the Imperial Throne.

The Emperor awards the Duke a fiefdom, previously held by the Harkonnens, on Arrakis, a desert planet which is the only source of the 'Spice.' Indeed the Spacing Guild and the Bene Gesserit cannot function and exert power without spice — the Guild could not 'fold space' to navigate across immense distances in space, and the Bene Gesserit's powers of memory recall would be stunted. Civilization depends on the Spice, making it the most valuable commodity in the universe.

Despite their misgivings, the Atreides have no choice but to accept the honor and status accorded by this fiefdom, and must relocate to Arrakis. Unbeknownst to the Duke, the Emperor has enlisted the Harkonnens to attack the Atreides shortly after they are installed on Arrakis, under the pretext of their inter-House feud and the Harkonnen loss of Arrakis. They will be covertly aided in this attack by legions of Sardaukar dressed in the livery of House Harkonnen, so as to conceal the Emperor's hand in the destruction of Duke Atreides.

In addition to covert military assistance, the Harkonnen are aided by a traitor they have recruited in House Atreides. The Duke's only son, Paul Atreides, and Paul's mother, the Bene Gesserit Jessica, manage to flee into the desert to seek refuge among Arrakis's indigenous Fremen. Paul Atreides is able to harness the power of the Fremen by appearing to fulfill their religious prophecies while at the same time developing into the Kwisatz Haderach. With help of the Fremen, Paul launches a war to restore Atreides control over Arrakis, avenge the death of his father, assume the Imperial Throne, and become the most powerful man the universe has ever seen.


Restored the more extensive synopsis from history. From what I can see this original synopsis was replaced by a teaser because editor thought it wasn't appropriate to have an extensive synopsis of book. However, Wikipedia is not paper and so there is no reason not to have a detailed synopsis. All the other articles have detailed synopsis as well, as do other articles on various novels. Obviously the synopsis is a spoiler if you haven't read the book; but this is an encyclopedia not a magazine review.
I should, however, note that I originally added all the synopis' for the original series and thus have a personal interest in not having wasted that time writing it in the first place for Wikipedia. --ChrisG 22:17, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Famous lines

This will be incorporated into the article as soon as it is matured.

  • 'Father, the Sleeper has awakened'. -Paul Atreides upon mastering the ride on the worm.

I think one of the units in Warcraft 3 sais 'the sleeper has awakened' right after it is built. (Druid?) Bertus 12:11, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

  • 'Mood? What has mood got to do with it? Mood is for cows,or for love or playing the balisset. Mood is not for fighting." - counsel of Gurey HAlleck to young Paul who did not want to practice knife fighting by saying he wasn't in the mood for it.
  • The spice must flow' -Guild navigator issuing instructions to the Emperor
  • 'He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing' -Paul
  • 'Get me that floating fat man!' The Emperor upon landing on Dune
  • 'His name is a killing word' -In fact NOT from the book, but rather the 80's movie.
  • 'I will not fear, fear is the little death that brings total annihilation' -The Bene Gessariat Mantra against fear (I forget the full version about where you turn around)

In case this is still an active issue, I wanted to note that it is more appropriate to list quotes from the novel(s) in Wikiquote: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Dune This article is already lengthy and a list of quotes here adds nothing of value. TAnthony 18:02, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] To NPOV or not to NPOV....

ChrisG, Stan: I think the discussion about NPOV above is pointless! You just agree on:

  • Absolute NPOV from a single editor is not possible
  • Editors make an effort to be as NPOV as they can; so if still POV, another editor's POV is needed.

But the point here is how to NPOV this article, and that someone'd better do it. I'm near totally ignorant about Dune, so i cannot help. But you both, ChrisG & Stan, agree on which points are POV!... So you surely know how to fix them!

If I were to write an article on Zelda, it surely would talk of all its goodness. But that doesn't mean I cannot read/research what the critics on it are about! It's not that difficult to write "some people think A because of bla bla bla. Another people think B, considering that blu blu blu"

In conclusion: when we appreciate some piece of text is POVed, we are all capable of [or asking someone to] fix it, so it approaches a little more to NPOV. (And that remains true when the piece of text I consider POVed was written by me!) --euyyn 22:25, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In actual fact the parts of the article which there were disagreements about NPOV were removed at some point over the months I was away from actively editing Wikipedia. Thanks for the reminder, because I certainly believe there needs to be a section on the critical status of Dune in Science Fiction and so I will have to look again at the deleted history --ChrisG 23:20, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Bene Gesserit and Reverend Mothers =

When a Bene Gesserit goes through the initiation to become a reverend mother she does not recieved all of her ancestral memories, she only receives the memories of all the preceding Reverend Mothers in her line, and it is not the "male ancestral memories" that she can not access, just a certain "black" area that terrifies. This may be the male part of the psyche, but I think even that is speculation. I am going to make these changes if no one objects. --ZaQ 12:54, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)


The memories are limited to all blood lines up the point of conception. The "Black" Area they can not go is ability to see the future. Paul's sister talks to the Baron, and is taken over by him in book III. The space guild navigators are the opposite of the reverend mothers. Where the reverend mothers can look into there past the Navigators and peers into the future to plot a path for the ship so he can navigate through fold space. Yes this needs to be edited!

[edit] Introduction

This article is badly in need of a brief overview of the novel in the Introduction section -- 10 lines long max. Anyone coming to the article with no Dune knowledge gets nothing before being dumped into a discussion of Themes and then a long detailed setting and synopsis. --Motor 15:00, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)


Stop writing articles for experts to read!!! I rely on Wikipedia for one good reason, and this is what it should be all about: to learn about a whole world of knowledge on a topic I haven't the slightest inkling of. Dune..what's Dune? It was a novel from the 60's. Oh, okay, so I'll read about the novel. This page therefore should introduce the ideas of the Dune canon to a reader as if they've never heard of Dune. The problem is, the article mentions Paul and story elements before the reader even knows who Paul is or what the story is about. --Anonymous

The article as it stands is a mess, IMO. It serves no-one well. Newbie or expert. I made a few changes recently (a better first paragraph) and a minor cleanup but it's not anywhere near enough. -Motor 10:25, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)
I would scrap the lot and start again more like this: Dune: novel written by Frank Herbert...how important was it for the world/for sci-fi genres etc..now what was it about (briefly)..the premise: what was this universe based around, what are the technologies (nothing to do with Paul yet), and then what happened that led to the events of his book...then at the end mention how and why this book began the whole canon of stuff. --Anonymous
I don't think starting again is needed (or a good idea). We could start by deleting the entire Synopsis section -- it's garbled and long-winded and too fannish. It needs someone to take resposibility for redoing the synopsis and reorder the article. I'll do it, but only as a last resort since I'm not that knowledgble about Dune -- just someone who's read the novel and atttempted a minor clean up about a month ago. Does anyone want to step up? I'm going to make a start by removing the synopsis and and see what it provokes. --Motor 10:25, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

Get the idea? Make it without cross references. That's what sets apart professional encyclopedia authors and amateurs like us. Don't make the Britannica people laugh at us! --Anonymous

While I agree with a lot of what you said, this is just trollish and unnecessary. --Motor 10:25, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Deleting/rewriting synopsis

Motor, working on the article is not deleting the whole synopsis. Wikipedia is not paper and space restrictions are not an issue. If you want to work on the article/synopsis then fine; but outright deleting the section is inappropriate behaviour. --ChrisG 13:46, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have to wonder whether you bothered to read the talk page before reverting and writing this. This isn't a space issue. It's a quality one. I made it quite clear that I'm willing to work on this page unless someone else with more Dune experience comes along. The Synopsis as it stands is unencyclopedic... with it in, no-one seems to want to tackle a large block of fannish writing... without it perhaps the article has a chance of improving. I'd hoped that removing the offending block of text would actually provoke someone into improving it rather than a knee-jerk response about space restrictions (BTW, wikipedia articles have a recommeded size limit, not for space, but for readability and to prevent them just getting longer and long rather than better -- which is exactly the problem with the synposis). --Motor 15:08, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)
I'll volunteer: whoever wrote these synopses (they seem to comprise the entirety of some of the less-well known Dune novel articles) didn't do a very good job. Too much detail, and is too confusing. I expect I'll focus on how the plot is multiply stranded: have any suggestions, post'em below. -- Maru Dubshinki 07:35 PM Saturday, 12 March 2005
Check the edit history before you insult someone's work; and while your at it you might also want to delete the synopsis' to all the other five original dune novels. Cheers. :ChrisG 20:27, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Har har Chris- I am foolhardy and arrogant; not insane. -- Maru Dubshinki 05:44 PM Sunday, 13 March 2005
I agree that the "synopsis" as written is not encyclopedic style and is also longer than necessary. I would like to take a crack at the synopsis as well, let's see how it goes. Kaisershatner 15:47, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Congatulations, I think you've done a pretty good job. I think maybe "Introduction" would be better heading than "Description without spoilers", and perhaps themes should come after the new/smaller synopsis -- but apart from that, well done. Motor 16:54, 2005 Mar 31 (UTC)

[edit] Synopsis Pt.2

As I mentioned above feel free to rewrite/improve the synopsis for this or the other original Dune novels , I don't own them; and I would be ecstatic if someone would seriously improve them. Its just Motor and yourself majorly underestimates how difficult it is to write a synopsis for a novel as complex as Dune starting from a blank screen. Criticising an article is easy and copyediting fairly easy compared to writing a long original article. Apologies for my curtness. :ChrisG 20:50, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

On the contrary, I think you are over-estimating what is required for a synopsis. It doesn't need a detailed description of the plot points. It just a short one-page plot summary. Look at the current state of the article from the point of view of someone looking up Dune because they've heard about it on the TV/Radio/Web. The introduction section tells you nothing other than the fact that Dune was originally two shorter works, and that Herbert dedicated it to some ecologists. Then the reader is dumped into a discussion about "Themes"? Eh? For what? We haven't even told people what Dune is about. We then follow it up with a blizzard of jargon and strange names: Butlerian Jihad, Mentats and Bene Gesserits. And finally a Synopsis that is far too long and detailed to provide any information to newbies, and which adds little for those familiar with Dune already. As I said way, way back before this current fuss -- this article needs a 10-15 line intro to what Dune is about. Plus, a synopsis should be no longer than a page. IMO, the basic structure of the article should be:
  • Introductory pagagraph - Dune is a Sci-book, date of publication, mention of other media.
  • Introduction - What is Dune? What is the basic story? No mention of Butlerian Jihad (leave that for the Dune universe article). Just keep it simple and as jargon free as possible. Introduce Paul.
  • Synopsis - Introduce the major characters and organisations (Leto, Jessica, Imperial house, Atreides, Harkonnen, Fremen) and the planet itself. Spice (and its effects). Worms. Paul ends up in the desert and builds a power base to take over Arrakis/Dune, and because of the Spice... the empire too. Sure it's short and skips detail... but that's what a synopsis is.
  • Themes - economics, religious, political, ecological. Here's where you can go to town with more detail and discussion.
  • Fuller list of characters and organisations: The major ones and smaller ones such a Mentats, Bene Gesserit, Halleck, Idaho, Alia, Yueh etc etc.
  • Awards
  • See also
  • Ext links
BTW: I do realise that you put a lot of work into the synopsis. It's not my aim to insult you over it and if it comes across that way I apologise. --Motor 12:30, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)
That's a pretty good basis, but I had been thinking more of:
  • Introduction: a really abbreivated summary of Dune Universe, and a capsule summary of why the Atreides are going to Arrakis. Backstory and context in other words.
  • Events: the actual stuf that y'know, happens in the book, finishing with Paul as Emperor and a wikilink to the next book.
  • Critical look: themes, textual features, maybe history of book if not already covered in the w/u. I'm trying to find a book that made a big thing of the threaded-ness, the 'polyphonic' quality of the books, so it might be a while before I can produce a critical summary.
-- Maru Dubshinki
Sounds fine. I'm glad you said "abbreviated summary" of Dune universe. If you treat it as an article about Dune the standalone novel rather than Dune the saga, it will make writing it more manageable, and make it a lot easier to read. Though obviously there will be parts later in the article about its place in the larger saga. I look forward to seeing the result. Motor 15:47, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Media Mention

The 'Dune' article got mentioned in Slate today- [1];

Wikipedia is a colossal improvement—it's just like the fictional Hitchhiker's Guide, only nerdier. Wikipedia is the Web fetishist's ideal data structure: It's free, it's open-source, and it features a 4,000-word exegesis of Dune.

I'm not sure if that is a compliment or insult, but I'm posting it anyways. --maru 11:37, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Geographic extent

Just reverted an anon's edit; do we actually know whether the empire embraces multiple empires? The descriptions of the Guild implies that it can travel essentially anywhere it knows of, but the empire was formed of pre-guild colonized planets, so athe geographic extent seems to me uncertain, and thusly unwarranted to put in such a claim. Appreciate any feedback. --maru 13:35, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Detailed Synopsis?

Have just read through the article and overall it's pretty good but i think in order to be considered as a more encyclopaedic entry it should lose the detailed synopsis. The reasons being is that for those that have read the book and want to look up dune, i'm imagining they would like to know about things such as: its critical reception, the ideas and themes that Herbert explores within the book and it's influence on the literary world. For those who have never read the book the detailed synopsis really goes into too much depth about a great book which they should seek out and explore themselves. A brief synopsis will entice new readers where as a long one detailing plot strands and character events pre-empties the enjoyment of reading the book.

I think if you erased the detailed synopsis and instead expanded on the theme section with more detailed and thorough research with opinions from academia, how the book was received in critical circles both positive and negative and also the impact the book has had on the genre of science fiction that would make for a great article about a fantastic book (in my opinion possibly the best book iv'e read to this date).

To those who have written and edited the detailed synopsis i can see that you have put a huge amount of time and effort in to it but i think that it would be better to sacrifice this section for the betterment of the article. What do people think? --Yakuzai 21:30, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If you look higher up, you'll see that I did indeed intend to do just that (well, minus the scholarly apparatus part). How's it going and when will I post it? Err.... Soon! --maru 22:36, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Copyedits Dec 2005, and Long Synopsis

I made some structural changes. As much as I love "themes" and "allegory" they really have to go under the synopsis. No sense discussing the implications of the story w/o mentioning...the actual story. In addition, I really think the long synopsis is un-necessary and we ought to consider removing it. I hate to trash so much work, but I'm not sure it adds to the article. There's a similar problem at Les Miserables. It's also a long book. Kaisershatner 17:15, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Farad'n a character?

While Farad'n is a member of House Corrino, I do not recall his presence in this book. If indeed he is not present then I don't think it would be appropriate for him to receive mention here.

I believe that Farad'n was referenced as one of the potential heirs to to the throne. Although I have to agree, his presence in the first book of Dune isn't noteworthy. GreatMizuti 13:33, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Synopsis errors?

There are some things I have problems with and I thought it best to present them to the writers of the article and let them decide if they want to edit it or not.

"While they anticipate a trap, the Atreides are unable to withstand a devastating Harkonnen attack, supported by Imperial Sardaukar dressed as Harkonnen troops and aided by a traitor within House Atreides itself. Duke Leto is assassinated, but Paul and Jessica escape into the deep desert. "

The Duke isn't assassinated, with the help of the Suk Doctor Yueh he commits suicide attempting to assassinate the Baron Harkonnen in a final act of somewhat ironic revenge.

"Paul emerges as the Kwisatz Haderach, and Jessica's knowledge of the secret religious myths of the Fremen planted by the Bene Gesserit Missionaria Protectiva enable Paul to become Muad'Dib, a religious and political leader (Mahdi) who unites millions of the Fremen together into an unstoppable military force."

Paul isn't the Kwisatz Haderach, he admits this himself in the book, that he is in fact "something other" this is confirmed by Leto II in the fourth book, God Emperor, but wrt the novel, which I'm sure is what is important to the article, Paul declares that he isn't.

"Paul and Jessica are sent out into the desert to die. Because of the use of truthsayers in the Empire, the Baron Harkonnen needs to be able to say truthfully that he was not (directly) responsible for their deaths."

The reason the Baron needs to be able to truthfully claim that he wasn't responible for their deaths is because he fears reprisals from the Bene Gesserit for ordering the death of one of their agents and, unbeknownst to him, a prized bloodline.

"Meanwhile, Yueh, realizing that it is likely that the Harkonnens have been playing him for a dupe, and that his wife is probably dead already, plants a poison gas capsule, disguised as a tooth, in Leto's mouth, and informs Leto about it."

Yueh honestly didn't suspect that his wife, a Bene Gesserit agent, was dead, he just despised the despotic Baron enough to plan an assassination attempt.

"The Spacing Guild have no choice - their limited powers of prophecy show Paul is capable of it - and they send everyone home. "

Guild Navigators cannot see Paul in their prescience (nor can he see them) however, as Paul points out, what he perceives to be the flaw of the Spacing Guild is that they always take the safest option and it is not that they know he is capable of it but rather that they suspect that he would. Not the safest option. GreatMizuti 14:42, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Something I like to add to the list of errors would be: "... Instead, Shaddam uses a centuries-old feud between House Atreides and House Harkonnen as cover for his assault, enlisting the brilliant and power-hungry Baron Vladimir Harkonnen in a chance to eliminate his most hated rivals."

This contradicts with one of the chapter introductions in the novel. In one of them it is clearly stated that Emperor Shaddam admired the Duke Atreides (and secretly wanted him to be his son) and regretted the situation which made them enemies (Excuse me for not being able to find the right page)
As for the Harkonnens, Shaddam's personal opinion of them is never revealed (?) Therefore I think "most hated" is wrong here and should either be dropped or be replaced with something in the lines of "greatest". --Timenn 18:48, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I'll just throw in a couple of comments:

Yueh did suspect that his wife was already dead. In fact, he's almost certain of it. In the novel the thing he is most after is to see the Baron so that he can be "sure" of it... and, of course, that he has his chance to kill the Baron by way of the poison tooth.
While your last point does contradict one of the chapter introductions, you should note that the chapter introduction is written by the Princess Irulan. I've always thought of her as something of an apologist for her father's cutthroat politics. Justin Bacon 03:56, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


I'm pretty sure that the "his" in "his most hated rivals" was intended to refer to the Baron, not Shaddam. It's not wrong, it's just ambiguous writing, and needs fixing. Bowfee 18:55, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Astronomical error

Removed "The Imperium is often mistaken as a galactic one, but it seems that the stars have their own nebulas." as it makes no sense whatsoever. Clarityfiend 00:25, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Best-selling science fiction novel of all time?

I came across the quote and citation in this article that discusses Dune as the best-selling science fiction novel of all time, with more than 12 million copies sold. That just doesn't seem like that many to me, but I can't discover a way to retrieve sales figures on novels such as Jurassic Park, Stranger in a Strange Land, Frankenstein, or 2001. Is there a way to fact-check this claim? Benji 15:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, the claim comes from the publisher here, so the trail ends there. Short of actually seeing the raw statistics for all booksellers from the 1900s on, I'm not sure how one would fact-check such an assertion. --maru (talk) contribs 03:53, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
The publisher's claim has the feel of factless publicity. Since it's a simple factual claim that Dune is the best-selling science fiction novel of all time (12 million copies sold is the figure that seems to stick in my mind), it would be a simple matter of finding out if any science fiction novel has sold more than 12 million copies. I'm just hoping that someone more familiar with publishing figures than myself could offer some actual proof of the numbers involved here.Benji 16:05, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Synopsis house-cleaning

Did a bit of minor clean-up. One thing stood out as questionable and I have moved it here for discussion:

"By then Earth is no longer inhabited..."

I can find no direct statement or reference to this in Dune. If there is one, please note it here and replace this in the article. (I'll continue to check for myself as well.)

SandChigger 21:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I can go looking things up if you want, but I'm fairly sure that in Dune Messiah, when Paul was having Stilgar study history, Earth is referred to as "mythical" and in the past tense. --maru (talk) contribs 18:54, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

No need, Maru. Is this what you're thinking of:

"The Golden Age of Earth, have you ever studied that?"
"Earth? Golden Age?" Stilgar was irritated and puzzled. Why would Paul wish to discuss myths from the dawn of time?

found on p.91 (out of 222) of Messiah. That Stilgar regards Earth as mythical does not necessarily mean it is no longer inhabited, does it? --SandChigger 03:04, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Bleh. Maybe that didn't quite prove what I thought it did. --maru (talk) contribs 03:09, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Can you remember any names they might have used other than "(Old) Earth" or "(Old) Terra"? (If you follow my drift... ;) --SandChigger 03:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Maru, I've also found this, from Children (p.226/380):
St. Thomas was preserved in the Orange Catholic Bible and the Azhar Book, but Canterbury was gone from the memories of men, as was the planet which had known it.
Like a has-been movie star, forgotten but not gone? Sorry, still nothing conclusive. --SandChigger 17:16, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

It would seem logical that if the earth was still populated then it would not be known as a myth but as a reality. While this does not directly indicate an abandoned earth it does mean that those in the known universe are not aware of it, its location or what level of habitation it has. By Occam's Razor the most likely reason is that it cannot be found and is not of value to find (Hence the reference to myth and gone from memory). Makes a lot more sense and is "simpler" than an earth which still has a population but is somehow unknown to the universe and does not seek to interact with anyone within it? Enigmatical 06:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I think I've finally found the quote I was thinking of. It's one of the epigraphs, early on in GEoD:

"Keep it all intact," I warn myself. Who can deny the value of such experiences, the worth of learning through which I view each new instant? Ahhh, but it's the past. Don't you understand? It's only the past! a yurt at the edge of a horse-plain in a land of a planet which no longer exists. Tomorrow I will be born someone else in another place. II have not yet chosen. This morning, though-ahhh, this life! When my eyes had learned to focus, I looked out at sunshine on trampled grass and I saw vigorous people going about the sweet activities ... oh where has all of that vigor gone? -The Stolen Journals"

The relevant portion here is "land of a planet which no longer exists." He's obviously talking about Earth, since none of the other planets have yurts, and elsewhere whenever Herbert refers to pre-Industrial age cultural artifacts like that, it's always been in reference to Earth (like Leto II and Ghanima speaking French, for example). --maru (talk) contribs 01:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

You're tcertain about that? Coulda been Harmonthep, maybe? :) SandChigger 06:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Harmonthep? What was that? --maru (talk) contribs 13:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Harmonthep: Ingsley gives this as the planet name for the sixth stop in the Zensuuni migration. It is supposed to have been a no longer existent satellite of Delta Pavonis.[2] Earth is more likely, but we can't be certain so it's all speculation. -- Миборовский 21:36, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Miborovsky beat me to it, just as I was editing! (Cheers!) I'm not trying to say that you're wrong exactly, just that there's an assumption that might not be valid. See Yurt for mention of (current) "Industrial Age enthusiasts". SandChigger 21:42, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
But who is Ingsley and why do we care? --maru (talk) contribs 01:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Spoiler warning: Plot and/or ending details follow.
I would assume that he is a historian in the Duniverse.
Which is a very dangerous thing to do, since it means the entire glossary could have been written "in character", meaning compleat with all the fallibilities and limitations that flesh is heir to. (In short, any inconsistencies within it could be thrown out using the "Irulan Gambit", like the location of Paul's birthplace. Which has now been made a fact of canon in Hunters anyway, in that it is explicitly stated by a character in the text.)
OOPS! PREVIOUS LINE CONTAINS SPOILER! SandChigger 06:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Spoilers end here.
Assumptions are the first step into an early grave... --maru (talk) contribs 01:16, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
"Do you want to live forever?" - Valeria. I find no mention anywhere else of an Ingsley who would/could have commented on the Delta Pavonis system. Sic. SandChigger 02:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
"If I wanted to die, I'd take care of the job myself!" Yeah, I'm not finding this Ingsley thing very satisfying; it's also kind of annoying I can't find any smoking gun quotes even though it is obvious Earth is one with Nineveh, as the saying goes. --maru (talk) contribs 02:58, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

While Earth is referred to as mythical, this is a common sc-fi plot device, and almost never means that Earth is no longer inhabited. The usual reason that Earth is mythical is because it is so far away, and because the protoagonist's forbears left Earth so very long ago. Or because Earth is (by default) left with insular, conservative isolationists who discourage interaction with those who have left. I'm not saying that any of these is implied in Dune, merely that earth being mythical ceratinaly does not imply that it is no longer inhabited. That would be one of the least likely conclusions that I would draw.Leeborkman 01:28, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but I can't buy the distance bit. Caladan (Delta Pavonis III) is only about 20 ly from Earth. SandChigger 06:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More POV

Someone has spammed the article again. I think it was the same person. I agree that this is spam, but I agree with the point of view.

[edit] Allusions/references to actual history, geography and current science - full of POV?

eg, this new addition: "Bene Gesserit is clearly a reference to the Jesuit Order founded by Ignatius of Loyla - an organization known for soldierly discpline and great learning." Leeborkman 01:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, I see that someone else removed it as I was typing. Leeborkman 01:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I just reverted the edit which divided this section with a new subsection devoted to Islamic parallels with the life story of Muhammed. I felt this was a poor way of doing it, hence the revert. SandChigger 11:30, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dune vs Dunia

re "clear wordplay" - Dune vs dunia. Not credible: a) in FH's notes the world was referred to as "Dune Planet" or "Duneworld" (see The Road to Dune); b) FH has repeatedly written that the inspiration for the novel was a piece he researched on using plants to halt encroaching sand dunes; c) there's no evidence FH knew Arabic before starting Dune. (Just because Anthony Burgess knowingly used dunia as the name of an invented nation in Devil of a State doesn't mean FH is likely to have done so.) Tanzeelat 10:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I put the {{fact}} tag on this earlier but wondered if it shouldn't be moved here for discussion. I'll notify Oryanw that I've done this. SandChigger 12:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
  • The name of the planet (and the novel), Dune, is a clear wordplay: The word dune in English refers to a large sandmound while the planet Dune is a desert planet. And the word dunia (and similar sounding loanwords) in Arabic and many Arabic influenced languages of Africa and South Asia means world, a fact made particularly significant by the many Middle Eastern references in the work. The planet Dune is a large desert world unto itself.[citation needed]
Honestly, that just strikes me a stupid. Well of course Dune's name refers to the sand dunes which comprise it... --Gwern (contribs) 14:53, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks to SandChigger for moving this here (and alerting me), and to Tanzeelat for his/her interesting comments. Perhaps I should have written astonishing coincidence instead of clear wordplay. But since the citation requested is to FH's thought processes (properly so, since clear wordplay seems now to me to presuppose intent on FH's part, which I doubt anyone has a citation for) and not to an Arabic dictionary, supporting astonishing coincidence would involve proving a negative. I don't think the word *pun* necessarily implies intent one way or another. Substituting the word pun (or some other intent-neutral term), I believe my observation is valid and worth commenting on. But I won't replace it. The "pun" does strike me as obvious, for the reasons given. (I am not familiar with the Burgess novel, nor had I yet studied any Arabic when I became aware of the widespread use of the word dunia. Thanks to all for your comments. Most educational. O'RyanW (☺

₪) 20:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

More wordplay: The 'Myst' series of computer games and novels refers to a world called "D'ni" and pronounced 'Dunny'. This world is the origin of the participants. Although there are many desert references in the game the fantasy novels suggest D'ni is depp inside the Earth itself (but one of the entrances in this world lies in a desert according to one). Other names in the mist milieu show some signs of arabic roots or origins too. (Larger Lout) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.120.81.205 (talk) 11:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC).
Well, as they say in the Arab world, dunia mathal khayara... :-) Tanzeelat 21:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
The thing was writ with sand? And none saw what he wrote? C'mon, don't tease us here. --Gwern (contribs) 03:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spice agony?

What is this? I don't recall ever seeing this mentioned in the novels -- at least up to God Emperor. Unless someone can point it out in one of the texts, my guess is that it's a mistranslation of "spice trance". I've also posted this question on the talk page. See Talk:Spice agony. Alcarillo 15:13, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Answered there, but again, the phrase does not occur until Heretics. (Or "Hairy Ticks", as I prefer!) --SandChigger 17:01, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
See my comments at Talk:Spice agony, but I've altered the reference here for accuracy. TAnthony 18:44, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. Is the way the section reads now strictly correct though? Before Jessica's conversion with the Water of Life on Arrakis, didn't the BG use other drugs to induce the Agony? (Also, I went back and reread the passage describing Jessica's transformation in Dune last night and, frankly, it didn't seem all that physically traumatic. ???) --SandChigger 23:24, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
You are correct, so I adjusted it further; but though I believe that afterwards only the spice-essence method was used by the BG, I always assumed it was more a concentrated spice overdose rather than sandworm bile. If you know the truth of that, it probably should be noted here. TAnthony 00:09, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Good point. I've always assumed they used a dose of Water of Life. I'll see if I can find something. (Maybe there's some specific mention in the account of Murbella's daughter that fails in Hunters? Will check later...) I added mention of the Water of LIfe, btw. --SandChigger 04:11, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Wait, are you looking for Dune facts in HUNTERS ?!?! Surely hell has frozen over. LOL. TAnthony 05:25, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Don't blow a gasket there, OK? :) I just mentioned it as a ready reference, one place to look for a hint, that's all. (My view is that there has to be some FH in the new books, however hard to find!) --SandChigger 05:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Iraq, Saddam, Islam

What, no mention in the real-world allusions section on how Arrakis is meant to sound like Iraq and Shaddam like Saddam? No mention of the Feydakin or Zensunni beliefs? Dune literally drips with references to Iraq and to Islam.

http://baheyeldin.com/literature/arabic-and-islamic-themes-in-frank-herberts-dune.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.5.3.112 (talk) 20:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC).

Hmm, a book from 1965 was written with allusions to the leadership of Iraq by Saddam Hussein, who only became president of Iraq fourteen years later in July 1979? Very interesting... you can see why it's not included. timrem 20:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Fan Sites

I would like a qualification/clarification provided for eligibility for inclusion of new links to this section. From the sites I see currently listed, and with the Wikipedia guidelines on external linking in mind, it seems appropriate to add established fan sites to the designated section in this article: communities where no registration is required, the site is free and accessible to all, is representative of a section of the Dune fan community, where there is no advertising, and where the content relates to the subject matter of the wiki article. I fail to see the objection to the inclusion of my edit, and would like a detailed explanation as to why. If fan sites are deemed inappropriate to list, then remove them all, along with the section itself, from the article. Arbitrary editing is inappropriate in the context of Wikipedia. 84.71.43.63 17:23, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I believe you are misreading the intent as well as the wording of some of the guidelines. Simple registration (creating a user account, with or without email address verification) is rapidly becoming a necessity with the increase in comment spammers; none of the fan sites listed requires payment of a fee to do so, nor to simply view the site content. Which guideline states that a site must be representative of the fan community? The guidelines mention "objectionable amounts of advertising" not "no advertising". The strongest argument for non-inclusion is Guideline #13, relevance.
Does anyone else want to weigh in on this one? --SandChigger 02:33, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I've registered for an account as you suggested. The issue I have is that user:IPSOS is arbitrarily deciding which links are included within the external fan sites and which are not. I sent communications to the user's talkpage without any response, and posted here for discussion (again without any response from IPSOS). I have read the wiki guidelines on adding external links, and do not believe the site I have added contravenes the rules, yet it is still removed despite the fact that other links on the list do contravene some of the guidelines (advertising for example). My point is this: a single user cannot arbitrarily decide what should and should not be included. The guidelines are clear. It's a case of allowing the inclusion of relevant links, or removing the section entirely. I will take this to mediation if the article continues to be arbitrarily edited in conflict with the aims and objectives of Wikipedia. Coldmachine 13:34, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Just playing the devil's advocate here. According to this http://www.dunepbem.tapirdesigns.co.uk/forum/ there are only 34 registered members. That doesn't seem very notable. Is a significant portion of the site membership NOT registered for or using the forum for some reason? Just wondering.... --SandChigger 10:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes there are limited numbers of participants, but the site is the foremost pbem community relating to Dune and has inspired numerous off-shoots. A Google search will tell you that, coupled with the fact it's been running for over four years now. Quality, not quantity, so the saying goes. The group is representative of the pbem section of the Dune fan base, and that's why it ought to be included particularly since other listed fan sites contravene Wikipedia's own guidelines on external links (again, I mention advertising as the key point). Coldmachine 20:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I should add; I'm just going through the listed links now and houseatreides.com is not responding, The Sietch has around 10-20 active participants of the 122 registered, and there are copyright issues involved in Dune 2k with reengineering an old PC game. Coldmachine 20:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but how representative of the total fanbase is this "play by email" faction? (I wasn't even aware of the existence of such a thing until you brought it up. But then, I'm not much of a gamer of any sort.) As for the advertising, it's much less obtrusive on these sites than some others I have seen. Like registration, it's a fact of modern Internet life. Again, the guideline does not say "no advertising". --SandChigger 17:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Well if you haven't encountered pbem-ing then that's your own loss and ignorance! The existence of something is not factual based on whether or not you personally have experience with it. I recommend Google as your first line of enquiry. I'm not debating the scale of the pbem community, just as an equivalent counterpoint would be "how representative of the total fanbase is a group of people who reengineer an old computer game?". I don't ask for the exclusion of existing links, merely the addition of another suitable link. I fail to see the logic behind the vehement objection to this when the link fits the Wiki criteria, and the article benefits from a broad range of appropriate links. I can only assume there's some personal issue? Perhaps mediation might be an idea? Coldmachine 08:50, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Interesting. Attacking me certainly does bolster your argument. I'm merely playing the devil's advocate here and frankly couldn't care one way or the other. You seem to be the one with the emotional investment. (Case in point: your seemingly retaliatory removal of the House Atreides site link?) Whatever. I'll leave it for others to deal with this. --SandChigger 19:18, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Attacking you? Hardly. I apologise if you misunderstood my response to your criticism of "this "play by email" faction". We're a group of fans, not a faction, and "this" group of fans has large numbers of active players which - as I say - is beside the point since we're not here to debate the scale of a given section of the Dune fan community as I outlined above. The emotional investment I hold is merely a pursuit of fair treatment under the Wiki guidelines which appear to be applied erratically and with an inappropriate level of discretion by editors of this particular article. As I say: I suggest either all the fan links are removed entirely if there's a nepotistic approval system in place, or permit the inclusion of additional links which relate to the article content.Coldmachine 08:14, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
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