Talk:Dundee

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Contents 1 Other Dundees 2 Notable Dundonians 3 Dundee Law 4 Dundee's Association with NCR 5 Football 6 Good article status 7 Longest bridge in Europe? 8 McManus Galleries 9 Employment situation, declining population 10 Employment situation, industry and economy 11 Education 12 Sunniest city 13 People 14 Music 15 CFD 16 Transport 17 History 18 Why two Dundee articles? - Proposed merger 19 Government and politics - references 20 Onward to Featured Article status 21 George Galloway 22 Congratulations 23 Students 24 D.C. Thomson 25 Television

[edit] Other Dundees

Looking at the other Dundees on Dundee. It looks to me like a clear case of the original Dundee deserving to be moved. For example Dundee, Oregon (listed as a city) has a population of 102. Mintguy 18:57, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I didn't like it either, so I deambigulated all the links. Dduck 19:41, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

No. you misunderstand. Where a name is overwhlmingly associated wih one thing or place, it is common to use that name without qualification and move the disambiguation to a xxx (disambiguation) page. Like London, Paris, Boston etc.. Mintguy 22:31, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Notable Dundonians

Great to see people chipping in with new contributions. Thanks especially to the anonymous user who inserted the section on famous Dundonians. Adambisset 00:48, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I removed the section on D'Arcy Wentworth Thompson because despite his significant achievements he wasn't actually Dundonian, and he already has an excellent Wikipedia write-up of his own. (I suppose the same could be said of Winston Churchill, but I would defend the significance of having such an illustrious figure linked with Dundee) Adambisset 15:04, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the history section is better off without it. I never particulary liked that section. He wasn't that significant to the city to warrant a whole section on him.

I've just noticed though that there is practically nothing about William McGonagall in this article. I think we need to think of a way of fitting something about him in to the article somewhere. Ydam 22:55, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

May be we could include a brief mention of D'Arcy Wentworth Thompson in the innovations section. Ydam 23:06, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dundee Law

As far as I know, the hill you're talking about is not (or no longer) called Dundee Law but 'Lawton Hill'.

Interesting... I'm not sure though - the road signs definitely say "Dundee Law". Where did you hear the name 'Lawton Hill'? Adambisset 00:23, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Having been born and brought up in Dundee, I can honestly say neither me nor four generations of my family can remember the Dundee Law (or just, "the Law") ever being called "Lawton Hill". Law being the scots word for hill, Hilltown Hill doesn't make much sense really. Perhaps it's the name of one of the housing estates on the slopes?--Stephen 17:18, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yep, as a kid we were taught to make fun of anyone calling it the 'Law Hill' as that was just saying hill hill.

[edit] Dundee's Association with NCR

I was always of the understanding that the NCR has been a major employer in Dundee since 1946 and not the 60's and 70's as stated.

[edit] Football

London has also provided 2 European Cup semifinalists (Chelsea and Tottenham)Insert non-formatted text here

I also has two of the closest football grounds in europe. (Tannadice & Dens Park)

[edit] Good article status

It would be nice to be able to list this article as a good article, but although generally of a reasonable quality, I feel that standards dip off towards the end. There is far too much promotional activity going on, especially the bit about colleges (as happens all over Wikipedia).

Could some Users with a good working knowledge of modern Dundee please take a critical look at the last half of the article, and take a pair of secateurs to any promo/bragging guff, and raise the tone of the piece. The External links could do with a stern review as well.--Mais oui! 09:49, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Anyone think that we submit this for a peer review. It's going to give us a bit of a heads up in regard of what needs doing in order to progress on this article. After all the content is here it just needs a bit fixing up. Ydam 18:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Yep... peer review sounds good. --Mais oui! 16:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

It's looking really good. I like the way the sections are shaping up, but there's too much careless repetition and sloppy typing. I'm also not keen on the overzealous use of footnotes, but that's just me. Adambisset 14:05, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The careless repetition and sloppy typing are probably my fault. I copied a lot of the content from the lead in to the rest of the article to bring it in to line with WP:LEAD I just hadn't got round to rewriting the lead yet. Not sure the footnotes are overzealous - theres only seven of them so far. Unfortunatly good and featured articles need claims to be backed up with evidence so were going to need claims for the abertay IT facilities thing as well as for a few of the figures given in the article.

As for sectioning I think the history section needs a bit of an overall. I think it would look better if it was more of a chronology like it is in other city articles. The modern Dundee and Innovations sections could also do with being moved and/or retitled. You might want to check out Sheffield for an example of what a featured article of a city looks like. Ydam 04:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The articles certainly shaping up now. Just a few minor niggles on recent edits.

• • • • • • I notice the phrase is said to has been reinserted. I originally took this out per the peer review suggestion. I worded it the way it was as unless the claim was contested simply referencing the claim seemed enough. Although if there were a more formal way of wording the notion that the claim was less then certain I would certainly go for that.
          • The title medieval period has been changed to Medieval Dundee. Again the peer review and the WP:MOS suggest against repeating the name of the article in section headings should be avoided. I was going to change Modern Dundee too. I just hadn't thought of a better title.
          • The words Thrive and definitve Seem a little too POV. I think it's enough to mention the state of things and let the reader decide fro themselves whether something is thriving. Definitive I don't have a problem with if it's explained how they are definitve but I checked that bands article and there didn't seem to be any information on how they were definitive. I'm not familar with the band myself so I don't have any idea if actually are definitve in any way. For all I know it could be fanboyism, I'm sure it isint but it needs to be explained.
          • If 'thrive' is too POV, then surely 'problem' (in relation to poverty) and loaded phrases like 'teenage preganancy capital' ought also to be avoided. Adambisset 17:20, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
            • Your completly right, thanks for picking up on that and copyediting that whole section. Looks miles better now. Never realised that 'teenage preganancy capital' and especially 'problem' were loaded ways of refering to it but it's really obvious now that you mention it. Ydam 04:54, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Aside from that thanks for finding a reference the population figure and for moving that picture to the geography section. It looked out of place in the history section. I think a nice picture of the wishart arch would suit the area it vacated quite nicely. The civil wars heading really helps to break up the history section too. Ydam 19:35, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

• • • • • • I notice someone beat me to including the dundoninan info in the lead. Thanks for that

[edit] Longest bridge in Europe?

Today the Tay Railway Bridge is the longest in Europe at just over 2 miles long.

From Oresund Bridge:

The Oresund Bridge is a combined two-track rail and four-lane road bridge across the Oresund strait.

..and..

The total length of the bridge is 7,845 metres

Even the Tay Rail Bridge article doesn't claim the bridge to be the longest in Europe- only that:

Upon its completion in late 1878, the Tay bridge was the longest in the world.

- Eric 16:48, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] McManus Galleries

I'm surprised there's nothing on the McManus Galleries on this page, or indeed on wikipedia itself. I don't know enough to do an article or add anything to this page but perhaps someone more informed would care to . AllanHainey 11:55, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, if you know enough to leave the above message, you certainly know enough to add a bit to the article about the McManus Galleries, so don't be shy. -- Derek Ross | Talk 15:01, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I know it's the art gallery in Dundee & may have been opened on 29 October 1890 by William Gladstone (it was looking of confirmation of this that led me here) but apart from that I don't know anything. Nevertheless I'll add a red link. AllanHainey 12:02, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Kudos to whoever did the write-up for the McManus Galleries and added the pic ;-) Adambisset 15:44, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Ydam 22:56, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Employment situation, declining population

On 15 December 2005, the following passage was deleted from the Employment section of the article, with no explanation:

At present, however, the employment picture is not good (outwith the specialised fields of medicine, science and technology). The city has in fact experienced a drop in population in recent years.

While I have opted not to restore this text, I think something does need to be said about the employment situation in present-day Dundee. The population decline, in particular, should be mentioned - this is a fact which is backed up by several sources.

The current article reads like a tourist brochure. Although I haven't been there in many years, I suspect that Dundee in 2006 is not quite the Mecca of culture and prosperity it is portrayed as here.

I do not mean this as a slight on Dundonians, by the way - many other cities have suffered similar declines. 203.49.205.34 01:07, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

That's true. Dundee's population has been declining for a few years now. It's not a slight it's just a fact that should not have been removed. The anonymous editor is right to voice concern. -- Derek Ross | Talk 14:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Although I would not describe it as a Mecca of culture and prosperity, it is interesting to note the amount of people who upon returning to the city after some time comment on how much it has changed for the better and many long-time residents also think the same way, a lot of the people who have left haven't moved too far, hence a lot of the villages and burghs nearby are growing. Benson85 01:25, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Employment situation, industry and economy

Thanks for putting in some form of citation for the biotechnology industry in Dundee, however there are a couple of articles by George Kerevan in the same issue of the Scotsman (Business) on Monday 30 September 2002. The "Beyond rustbelt" article of [1] and "Chemical attraction" article of [2]. In this latter article he quotes a figure of 500 (five hundred) in this industry - a raft of spin-off biomedical companies arising from the university’s research. These may only be small in number and employment so far –a dozen or so firms and around 500 jobs – but they are Dundee’s foot in the 21st century. Admittedly these articles are from 2002 but the second article does provide a more reasonable figure. --Friedfish 15:44, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

that's a "Spin-off" figure. The university and medical school themselves are by far the largest biotech employers. Or that's how it seems to me on a quick read.--Citizensmith 19:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, these are companies that came out of academic institutes but that is the figure which should be used. The people at the university and medical schools would be the "indirectly employed" as they are involved in Education and Training, providing the "intellectual property". There is some crossover with a few dozen Professors working in both academia and industry, or some PhD students and postdocs sponsored by industry. The figure of 2,200 - or indeed Bio-Dundee have quoted 3,900 people - is misleading as it implies that there are many, many dozens of biotech firms in Dundee, when there seems to be fewer than 10. Would be nice though... --Friedfish 07:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Neither the Tayside Partnership Employment Survey (2004) [3] in their PDF of Dundee Employment Breakdown Map[4] nor the Dundee City Council Economic Development Plan 2005-2007 [5] on page 20 unfortunately do not mention this industry. Also these documents indicate that the manufacturing base of Dundee is more in line with the rest of Scotland at 11.7% (i.e. 9,544 of 81,755) in 2004 and 2005 rather than 20%. Perhaps some revision of the section is needed. --Friedfish 16:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Education

The reference to Harris Academy seems to have been removed without explanation on 28th May, by Adambisset Could you elaborate why you removed the section about the largest state school in the city?

It's alright, I already asked him about it. You can see his reply on my talk page. I was going to put it back myself but haven't got round to it yet Ydam 16:45, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply.

I'm not sure listing schools is particularly encylopedic. Moreover, just because the Harris, the Morgan and the High School are old doesn't necessarily make them 'notable'. Finally what purpose is served by repeating information that users can find on the Wikipedia pages that these schools already have? Adambisset 16:39, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

These schools are notable in the city beyond the fact that they are historic. Although the article could do with expressing why they are notable a little better. These three schools have a place in the cities public consciousness in a totally different way than say MenziesHill high school does. Ydam 22:59, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

You're right of course. I'm just defensive of friends and colleagues who work in the other schools! Adambisset 18:50, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

The school section could still do with being improved though. It could do with something about more than just these three schools, something about schools in dundee in general like how many there are, how good secondary education is in dundee in general etc. Ydam 08:07, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the rewrite of this section, I tried to find some figures on dundee schools but couldn't find any. Good job Ydam 04:57, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sunniest city

Has anyone got a source for the 1400 hours of sunshine on average per year. claim. I tried to search for one but couldn't find any reliable sources. I took that figure for now as I have a feeling from searching google that might not have been a "fact" until it was put in this article But I would like to be proved wrong Ydam 03:09, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

From the BBC Website http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4202571.stm the claimed hours of sunshine for Aberdeen, recorded at Dyce, are given as 1454 hours in 2004. The Evening Telegraph story here http://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/output/2005/01/24/story6748544t0.shtm gives a quote from a Met Office spokesperson as saying that Dundee has a greater sunshine hours, however, this is measured from Leuchars.

Thanks for those. Neither of them explicitly give a figure for Dundee though. For the time being I think the current phrasing will have to do. Ydam 21:13, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] People

I've moved the Immgration and multiculturalism section to People. The article needed a section on people and a little expansion of the section made it fit the bill. I'm not much of a linguist though so the text on the dundee accent will probable need someone more qualified than me to take a look at it Ydam 23:03, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh and we could probably do with adding the old teenage mothers statistic if we find a source for it in this section too. Should help balance the rest of the article. Ydam 23:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC) Done Ydam 00:24, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Good job Ydam - I like the way you've done that. Eh've always been sceptical about the 'noisy machinery' explanation for the Dundee accent though! Adambisset 18:50, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

You might be right about the noisy machinary thing, I've just realised that I've never actually read that anywhere, only heard it from people. I couldn't find anything online to back it up. So there's a good chance it's complete bunkum. (incidently according to something I saw at verdant works Jute mill workers did develop their own sign language).

I found some more info online about the dundee accent here [6] don't really understand it too well so I'd appreciate if someone could better explain the Dundee accent then I did. (I think my harsh gutteral sound may be inaccurate) Ydam 04:42, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

If the nosiy machinery thing were correct, then surely there'd be Dundonian accents in all the mill towns of the UK! Also, I'm pretty sure 'gadgie' and 'ken' aren't unique to Dundee. Gadgie is a Romany word meaning 'man' - it is used in the Scottish Borders. What is unique is the 'eh' sound and also the use of affirmative questioning to express negation (e.g. "Dundee is a lovely city, is it?" rather than "Dundee is a lovely city, isn't it?" Adambisset 15:14, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually The noisy machinary thing refers to the dialect rather than the accent. Your probably be right about the gadgie thing. I always thought it stemmed from glasgow but in the ned article it says it's a Dundonian term, although it doesn't cite its sources so who knows? You seem to know a lot more about the subject matter than I do so I nominate you to take care of that section. Ydam 15:44, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't call Dundonian a dialect (like the Doric in Aberdeen, for example). It's really just the accent we're talking about (don't know why I'm wikifying words like Aberdeen - you know where it is! Probably just force of habit...). To be honest I think we're better to leave it out of this article and direct people to the Scottish English article. That would be a better place to expound on Dundee's unique contribution to the language. Adambisset 16:44, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Doric's southern extent is Angus, although I get the impression that broad Doric speakers so far south are pretty thin on the ground now, even in Forfar or Arbroath. Dundee's a bit of a border town, dialect-wise, between Fife and Angus and I'd agree with Adam that the accent in Dundee is far more distinctive than the dialect. -- Derek Ross | Talk 18:50, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I took out the noisy machinary stuff as I couldn't find any source for it at all beyond first-hand hersay (which isint really appropiate), despite looking quite extensivly. I felt it was dragging that otherwise now excelently written section down. Seeing as I added the thing in the first place I didn't think anyone would mind me removing it. Ydam 13:11, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Music

Looking up a citation for Spare Snare, I find they were voted 46 in the List Magazine poll but the Associates and Average White Band were also in the same top 50. Either all three positions should be mentioned in this article or none. Look up Spare Snare's wikipedia entry for the List Magazine poll citation. I tend to think it should be left to the individual band entries. Perhaps if they had been voted number 1 it could go here. Comments? --Citizensmith 17:50, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it's not really relevant to Dundee that they were in that list, mearly that they came from the city. Ydam 17:56, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree too - the music section is beginning to look like a promo forum for unsigned bands. Can we leave that to myspace please? Adambisset 12:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] CFD

--Mais oui! 09:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC) --Citizensmith 19:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Transport

Kudos to whoever added that section - it's the only really worthwhile section that's been added to the article in ages. Not sure if we need all the bus numbers though ;-) Adambisset 12:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Here here, If it's one thing this article has been crying out for it's been a transport section. I always wanted to add one but could never find anything to write on it. Congratualtions to the expert who expanded it. I agree on the bus numbers too. There already mentioned in the Travel Dundee article anyway.  YDAM TALK 12:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Can someone clear up some confusion for me regarding railway stations in Dundee. Is Balmossie railway station actually in Dundee or Angus. Because from the maps it looks like it is in Dundee.  YDAM TALK 11:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Alright scrap that last question. After a little bit of research it appears to be just outside of the city border.  YDAM TALK 20:59, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the information about stations is confusing as a station in this context is nothing more than a modern bus stop and there are over 900 of these in the city as a whole. Perhaps if the station concept was explained a little better then it might be more meaningful to the reader. Fraslet 20:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History

Anyone have any objection to me spinning out the history section in to its own History of Dundee article per WP:SS. It's getting pretty long and I think it's about time. It'd help rebalance the article and shorten the TOC.  YDAM TALK 15:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Sure - give it a go - I reckon you'd make a good job. I'd recommend leaving a very brief summary in the present article though, for completeness. If it doesn't work out we can always restore it. It's amazing to see how much meat has been added to the skeleton of an article I reworked ages ago... Adambisset 12:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. It should be possible to use the introductory section from the "History of..." article as the "brief summary" in the main article -- provided the intro has been written with that in mind. -- Derek Ross | Talk 19:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Well I've already started summerising the article. The first two paragraphs of the current history section are what I've done so far. I think one more summerising whats left should leave us with three nice large paragraphs. Tell me what you think when I've finished. There isint actually an introductory paragraph of the history article at the moment as it's just the whole history from here copied over  YDAM TALK 19:18, 8 September 2006 (UTC):

Good. More power to your elbow! -- Derek Ross | Talk 19:43, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Right thats the history section summarised. I've also redone the lead to bring it in line with WP:LEAD. I'd love some opinions and suggestions/improvements from others though before I drop the references back in.  YDAM TALK 23:15, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why two Dundee articles? - Proposed merger

Why do we have two articles, "Dundee" and "City of Dundee", with titles which imply essentially the same subject? I imagine the latter was created with the intention that it should be about Dundee City Council, or the politics of the city area, as district from Dundee City (which is now the city's official name), but this is not the implication of the title. ("Dundee City", by the way, is currently a redirect to "City of Dundee".) Laurel Bush 10:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC).

The same is done throughout the UK -- e.g. Winchester/City of Winchester. Joe D (t) 10:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Co-existence of "Winchester" and "City of Winchester" looks equally problematic, creating a serious dilema as regards which to link to from other articles. "Aberdeen City" has been moved to "Aberdeen City Council", with "Aberdeen City" becoming a redirect to "Aberdeen". Similarly, there is now "Politics of the City of Edinburgh council area" instead of "City of Edinburgh", and "Politics of the Glasgow City council area" instead of "City of Glasgow". Laurel Bush 10:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC).

These are not neccesarily analogous. I'm not familiar with the examples of Edinburgh and Glasgow, but if they're anything like Bristol the built-up area and council area are the same, or similar (the Bristol built-up area actually spills out of its boundaries slightly). Winchester on the other hand is a city which only occupies a fraction of the "City of Winchester" district -- therefore it wouldn't make sense to describe things outside the built-up area in an article about the city, but we still have to have an article about the district. The reason the article about the district is called "City of Winchester" is because that's what the beurocrats, for whatever reason, decided to name it. If you have a problem with the naming my suggested alternative is "Winchester (district)". Joe D (t) 11:19, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

As I understand it, it's primarily a member of local government category Subdivisions of Scotland. As for linking from other articles you should always link to the main town/city article (in this case Dundee unless referrring specifically to the current local government area. The main city article will then link itself to the government area normally (see council area in the Dundee infobox). Dundee City is not the official name of the city but is the name of the Council area for local government purposes as I understand it - but could be wrong... It was previously City of Dundee but was changed.Citizensmith 12:00, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Creating links should be much simpler and more reliable than I am seeing suggested above. As regards Winchester, it seems clear to me that the current holder of the city status is in fact the local government area, and the "Winchester" article represents (and is perhaps misnamed in so representing) a much more historic (and more limited) sense of the extent and importance of the city. Laurel Bush 13:23, 11 September 2006 (UTC).

It may be true that the local government area (the district) holds city status, but the point is that the district (and its article) includes loads of rural area and other villages that surround the built-up area. Meanwhile, the actual Winchester article is only about the contigious built-up area that is considered the settlement. That appears to be similar to the case here, where the local government area contains more than just this settlement, despite sharing its name. Joe D (t) 13:51, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

The opening sentence of "Winchester" calls the subject a city, and "City of Winchester" also defines itself as being about a district with city status. OK, in "Winchester" the city tag is qualified as "historic", but the co-exstence of those two articles still strikes me as problematic. And if "Dundee" is supposed to be about an historic city, what period of history are we refering to? Dundee as a "county of city" until 1975? (The county of city, as abolished in 1975, seems to have had boundaries very similar to those of the unitary council area). Also, I am wondering where in "Dundee" I might find, or should find, a link to "City of Dundee"? (In "Glasgow", "Politics of Glasgow City" was piped to "City of Glasgow". Instead there is now a plain link: "Politics of the Glasgow City council area".) Laurel Bush 09:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC).

Perhaps "City of Dundee" was created as somewhere to put a template-dependent infobox which wasn't wanted in "Dundee"? (Not sure I want, myself, to see the infobox anywhere). Seems to me "Dundee" should cover all uses of "Dundee" (except eg all but two of those now listed in Dundee (disambiguation)). To keep the article length manageable, however, this would tend to need a lot of reliance on sub-topic articles, each summarised in the Dundee article itself. Laurel Bush 16:24, 12 September 2006 (UTC).

Seems to me "City of Dundee" should be a redirect to "Dundee". Most of the content of the City of article is now in the "Politics of the Dundee City council area" and summarised as a subtopic in the Dundee article. Laurel Bush 16:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC).

I agree, City of Dundee is now redundant with Politics of the Dundee City council area. I always felt that article should be a sub article of this ones politics section. Although I'm not that fond of the recent edits to the politics section. All those headings seem a bit unnecessary for such a small section and tend to leave a lot of very small paragraphs.  YDAM TALK 17:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Remove all or some of the headings? Laurel Bush 10:06, 15 September 2006 (UTC).

Actually I like the way you've done it at the moment, with just the local and national government headings. I've tried to consolidate and expand a little in the local government section to avoid any short stubby paragraphs or sentances. I've also tried to improve the opening paragraph as I thought it was a little awkward. Tell me what you think  YDAM TALK 11:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I have done a few tweaks. As regards the proposed merger, I guess I should just do it, and thus find out whether anyone will want to revert. Laurel Bush 12:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC).

Done. Laurel Bush 16:24, 15 September 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Government and politics - references

If this reference - Crichton, Torcuil, "Kebabs Over Baghdad?", Scottish Herald, 12 May 2004 - is relevant, then I am not seeing it.
Also, I note the link - http://www.respectcoalition.org/index.php?aid=31 - is to a Respect Coalition website, quoting the Sunday Herald (is not a link directly to the Herald's own site). Why?
Laurel Bush 10:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC).

OK. Maybe I have found it: As council leader, he flew the Palestinian flag over Dundee. Would be clearer if this were quoted in the reference. And there is still the issue of the link, not to the the Herald site but to another quoting the Herald. Laurel Bush 10:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC).

I managed to change the reference address for you. As for quoting that line in the reference, it's something I don't think I've seen done before. Could you give a link to an article where this is done so I can get an idea of how it should be done.  YDAM TALK 11:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Cheers. As regards quoting from a referenced document (within a reference): the current reference appears to be template-dependent - for no very good reason that I am aware of - and I intend to make it independent and, therefore, easier to tweak/edit. Laurel Bush 13:29, 11 September 2006 (UTC).

That particlar reference is now template-independent. Laurel Bush 14:07, 11 September 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Onward to Featured Article status

I really think this article is approaching featured article status and I think we'd all like to see it eventually promoted. I noticed it was rated A-class by the Scottish wikiproject a while back so it can't be that far off now. Does anyone have any final suggestions on improvements or things that need to be done before I submit this to a final Peer review  YDAM TALK 13:13, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

It's been 5 days so I've gone ahead and submitted it  YDAM TALK 21:20, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] George Galloway

There seems to be some confusion within the Scottish press. George Galloway was the Labour Party organiser in Dundee from 1977 to 1983, but he never served as a councillor himself and was certainly never council leader. He does claim credit for persuading the Council to fly the Palestinian flag in sympathy with the Palestinian cause, but that was by virtue of his influence with the city councillors (who no doubt thought that he had done a great deal to get them elected). I realise there is a reliable source supporting this inclusion, but on this particular occasion the reliable source is unreliable. David | Talk 19:37, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

He became the secretary organiser of Dundee Labour Party in March 1981 at 26 years old, before that he was vice secretary of the Dundee West constituency Labour party and became vice chairman of the Labour Party in the city of Dundee and a member of the Scottish Executive Committee in 1975. His role in Nablus was peripheral; Ernie Ross, Colin Rennie and Ian Mortimer were the most reponsible. → friedfish 07:50, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for this information and for what you've added to George Galloway - it's really useful. I always wondered why Dundee, in particular, began to get so involved with Palestine but Ernie Ross's involvement would add a great deal. I think, in fact that the Palestinian flag flying incident was mentioned on an SDP election broadcast in the 1980s with John Cleese, as an example of loony things that councils do. David | Talk 08:21, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Congratulations

Well done to everyone who has worked on this article and raised it to featured status. I would say that you're all due a virtual peh! -- Derek Ross | Talk 20:09, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Students

I'm translating this article to French and I think I came across a typo in the English version. The article mentions: “students account for 14.2% of the population, more than any other Scottish city”. I found the assumption rather surprising, given that St Andrews have over 40% of students. I consulted the reference given which actually says “out of the four Scottish Cities, Dundee has the highest proportion of students at 14.2% of the total population.”, my guess being that the four Scottish Cities refer to Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Dundee. --Sixsous 12:03, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I would assume that's what it meant. St Andrews isint actually a city and Stirling and Inverness only became cities recently.  YDAM TALK 12:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] D.C. Thomson

The article currently states that D.C. Thomson is the city's second largest employer after the public/health sector. I find that a bit surprising - surely Dundee University employs more people... Adambisset 10:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Television

A section refering to BBC Dundee has been added. I'm not in a position to confirm, however, I would be surprised at that title. Would it not be more likely to be BBC Scotland - Dundee Studio, or similar? 82.26.77.119 18:58, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

A Google search for "BBC Dundee" [7] yields a fair few results, so I would think it is correct. Although a proper source would be good to find. Marks87 21:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Even so I doubt that the title is accurate. Both BBC Scotland and STV maintain a presence in Dundee and STV brands its as "STV Dundee" but BBC Scotland doesn't do any special branding. Maybe the false analogy with STV Dundee is the reason for the reference to BBC Dundee. -- Derek Ross | Talk 22:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

It also seems to be in the incorrect section. I would suggest it is in the Culture Section, rather than economy.82.26.77.119 23:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC)