Talk:Duke
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[edit] Discussion
There is no "Duke of Lancaster", the Queen holds the DUCHY of Lancaster but not the dukedom - the Sovereign is the fount of honour and can't hold any peerage as s/he can't hold an honour from his/herself. Removed error. (unsigned)
Is it me or does the first line seem very similar to the Webster entry for duke, which is copyrighted material? Kent Wang 07:35, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)
"These (royal dukedoms) remain in the royal family and are not inherited beyond the second generation" This is not exactly correct. Dukedoms given to members of the British Royal Family ARE inherited beyond the second generation - all dukedoms that have been given to members of the royal family go for an unlimited number of generations. Just think of the dukedom of Connaught and Strathearn which became extinct with the 2d duke, who was the grandson of the 1st Duke; or of the dukedom of Cumberland and Teviotdale, whose third duke - also a member of the third generation - was deprived from it because he was German. Likewise, The Earl of Ulster, will inherit the Dukedom of Gloucester as member of the third generation. The Earl of St. Andrews, a member of the third generation, will inherit the dukedom of Kent, and he in turn will be succeeded by his son Baron Downpatrick, of the 4th generation. What is true, is that the dukes of the third generation will not be Princes and Royal Highnesses - but this has nothing to do with the dukedoms, but with an entirely different letters patent, which granted the title Prince to the children and male-line grandchildren of monarchs (and I believe also to the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales). Exceptions are the dukedom of Cornwall and Rothesay, which are only granted to the eldest son of the sovereign and which are not inherited by his son (So if Charles, who is Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay, dies before his mother, Prince William will not become Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay). Erwin 11:44 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- just remove the error. Royal dukedoms don't remain within the royal family (if enough heirs are produced) as the holders will no longer be entitled to the HRH, and though they often die out by the second generation that's circumstance, not an intrinsic limitation. -- Someone else 11:54 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
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- That's exactly what I meant (but shorter). Sorry that I didn't change it myself, I'm new to Wikipedia, so I haven't got used yet to the idea that I can just change other people's pages on the internet without asking or giving an explanation. I've also taken the liberty of explaining the situation in Belgium, Spain and Sweden. Erwin 14:56 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
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- I removed the following text from this article: " Tradtionally British dukedoms can only be males, however recently it has been decided that if HRH Prince Andrew, Duke of York doesn't have a son on his death his elder daughter Princess Beatrice of York become Duchess of York in her own right." This incorrect information was added by IP address 129.32.96.240 on 24 November 2003.
In the United Kingdom, the remainder of peerages are always determined by the Letters Patent that create them. This is a frequent topic on the newsgroup alt.talk.royalty. It is also discussed in that group's FAQ on British Royalty and Noble Families. Queen Elizabeth II's 23 July 1986 Letters Patent creating the dukedom of York, the earldom of Inverness, and the barony of Killyeah in favor HRH The Prince Andrew contained the standard remainder, "heirs male of his body." This means that only a legitimate son of the Duke of York could succeed to these peerages. Unless the Duke of York remarries and has a son, his peerages (or rather, the 1986 creation of them) will revert to the Crown upon his death. HRH Princess Beatrice of York could not succeed to the 1986 creation of the dukedom of York anymore than HRH The Earl of Wessex could succeed to the 1947 creation of the dukedom of Edinburgh (contary to what appears on the official website of the British Monarchy).
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- But the letters patent, the common law, statutes and secondary legislation were all overridden by the new Human Rights Act, which asserts the right of sexual equality. Even before that, the UK's commitment to the European Human Rights agenda meant that sexual inequality could be challenged in the ECHR (not an EU court, by the way); but now sexual inequality can be challenged in the UK courts too. So Pss. Beatrice would be perfectly within her rights to adopt the dukedom on her father's decease, and would be able successfully to defeat a challenge in the courts. (A similar effect of the Act has caused the abolition of the death penalty in the few remaining instances : arson in a naval dockyard, high treason, etc.) OrangUtanUK 15:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
While dukedoms in the peerages of England, Scotland, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom have traditionally been bestowed upon and succeeded to by males, there have been two instances in the past 200 years were women were duchesses in their own right. First, Queen Victoria created, Celia Underwood, the wife of her uncle, the Prince Augustus Frederick, Duke of Sussex, Duchess of Inverness in her own right on 5 April 1840. When the Duchess of Inverness died in 1873, her title became extinct. Second, Princess Alexandra, Duchess of Fife, the elder daughter of Louise, Princess Royal and Duchess of Fife and Alexander Duff, 1st Duke of Fife, succeeded to the dukedom of Fife and earldom of MacDuff in her own right in 1912. This only happened because in 1900, Queen Victoria bestowed a second dukedom in the peerage of the United Kingdom on Alexander Duff that allowed the first duke's daughters and their male descendants to succeed to his titles in default of a son. Jeff 26 November 2003
[edit] Chinese duke
Confucius and some other articles use the word "duke" in a Chinese context. This is a very common translation, but it very much misleads. It makes no sense to assume that the Chinese title that is often translated as "duke" is so similar to the English title as to warrant such links. What is needed is an article each on the actual ranks in each system, and notes within each that they have parallels, such as, a duke being just below a prince or successor to the role of king, queen or emperor, and probably not a successor. -- 142
- Hardly any translation of ancient Chinese culture is "correct". Are princesses of China really like those of Europe? Are the princes? The queens? The eunuch? But those are long-established translations. Without them, half of Sinological literature would be inaccessible romanization. --Menchi 07:36, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- Incidentally, UK Dukes have precendence before princes. A prince is raised to a dukedom. OrangUtanUK 15:35, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
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'Dux' appears before Charlemagne in the Latin history of the Lombards, I believe. Wetman 07:34, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)
[edit] Duke collage!
[edit] "Dux" in Anglo-Saxon time
- "There were no Anglo-Saxon dukes;"
- "The Black Prince was created Duke of Cornwall in 1337. He was the first Duke in England."
SIGERED DVX SAXONVM ORIENTALIVM was apparrently the latin title of Sigered of Essex after Mercia reduced his rank from King of Essex (SIGERED REX SAXONVM ORIENTALIVM). I would have though this would translate as "Sigered, Duke of the East Saxons" but this would appear to be incorrect based on the extracts above. Anyone got any ideas as to what we would call his later title in modern english? MrWeeble 14:07, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
- While I'm no expert on Essex, it's wortwhile taking into account two things: 1° the Latin Dux must not mean Duke (that always translates as Dux, not vice versa), it may simply mean a military commander or vague -e.g. 'tribal'- leader, both conceivable for the former last King within the victor's wider kingdom; some use unauthentical 'descriptive' terms like Subking, but there simply seems to be no 'correct' term, especially if this is -quite plausible- a temporary arrangement for an individual, not the incumbent of a duchy; 2° 'in England' may be taken to mean post-Hastings as before the Anglo-Saxon system never quite produced a permanently unified kingdom known as England, rather a succession of Overlords (see Bretwalda) more 'in' then 'of' England. Fastifex 13:00, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Anne of Brittany
In the "Territory of Today's France" section, it states that "Other duchies of note include... Duke of Brittany (considered a sovereign state until personal union with France, by the marriage of Anne of Brittany with French King Francis I)."
However, clicking on the link to the article on Anne of Brittany reveals she did not marry Francis I, but the French kings Charles VIII and Louis XII. I would correct this in the former article, but instead feel it should be done by someone who may be more knowledgeable in the historical facts. Thanks for reading. Raphael S.
- Good point- about to be fixed in the article Fastifex 13:11, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Spanish dukes
I believe the awfully long list of Spanish dukes from the article which I reproduce below would be better off forked into its own article. Also, this article would need some reorganization and tightening, it is too big and messy now. Here's the awful list in the article now. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 01:10, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
- Duque de Ahumada ?
- Duque de Alba probably Alba de Tormes (Spain), but there are homonyms
- Duque de Albufera (Albufera is a lake on the coast of Spain, 7 miles south of Valencia, near which Marshal Suchet gained a victory over the English in 1811 - ?victory title)
- Duque de Albuquerque Grande de España
- Duque de Aliaga
- Duque de Almazán de Saint Priest
- Duque de Almenara Alta
- Duque de Andria
- Duque de Ansola
- Duque de Arco
- Duque de Arcos
- Duque de Arevalo del Rey
- Duque de Arion
- Duque de Astrico
- Duque de Atlixco
- Duque de Atrisco
- Duque de Aveyro
- Duque de Bailén
- Duque de Baños
- Duque de Benvante
- Duque de Bivona
- Duque de Camiña
- Duque de Canalejas
- Duque de Canovas del Castillo
- Duque da Cantábria region
- Duque de Cardona
- Duque de Carrero Blanco
- Duque de Castro Enriquez
- Duque de Castro-Terreño
- Duque de Castroterreño
- Duque de Cea in Leon province; no crown
- Duque de Dato
- Duque de Durcal
- Duque de Estremera
- Duque de Feria
- Duque de Fernán Nuñez =? *Duque de Fernan-Nuñez
- Duque de Fernández-Miranda
- Duque de Fernandina
- Duque de Francavila
- Duque de Francavilla
- Duque de Franco =(?) El Franco, in Asturias province; ducal crown
- Duque de Frías
- Duque de Galisteo
- Duque de Gandia
- Duque de Granada de Ega
- Duque de Hernani
- Duque de Hijar
- Duque de Hornachuelos
- Duque de Hornes
- Duque de Huescar
- Duque de Huete
- Duque de Infantado or *Duque del Infantado
- Duque de Jerica
- Duque de la Conquista ?victory title?
- Duque de La Roca
- Duque de la Unión de Cuba
- Duque de la Vega
- Duque de las Torres
- Duque de Lecera
- Duque de Linares =?
- Duque de Linhares
- Duque de Liria
- Duque de Lorenzana
- Duque de los Castillejos
- Duque de Losada
- Duque de Lucera
- Duque de Lugo
- Duque de Luna
- Duque de Mandas
- Duque de Mandas y Villanueva
- Duque de Maqueda
- Duque de Marchena
- Duque de Maura
- Duque de Medina de Rio Seco
- Duque de Miranda
- Duque de Monforte
- Duque de Montalto
- Duque de Montealegre
- Duque de Monteleón
- Duque de Montellano
- Duque de Montemar
- Duque de Montoro
- Duque de Montoroso
- Duque de Najeda
- Duque de Nájera
- Duque de Noblejar
- Duque de Palata
- Duque de Palizzi
- Duque de Palma de Maiorca
- Duque de Parcent
- Duque de Pastrana
- Duque de Peñaranda
- Duque de Pinohermoso
- Duque de Plasencia
- Duque de Prim
- Duque de Primo de Rivera
- Duque de Regla
- Duque de Riansares
- Duque de Riánsares
- Duque de Ripalda
- Duque de Rivas
- Duque del Rubi
- Duque de San Carlos
- Duque de San Fernando de Quiroga
- Duque de San Juan
- Duque de San Lorenzo
- Duque de San Lorenzo de Villahermoso
- Duque de San Miguel
- Duque de San Pedro Galatino
- Duque de San Ricardo
- Duque de Sanlúcar la Mayor
- Duque de Santa Cristina
- Duque de Santa Elena
- Duque de Santa Isabel
- Duque de Santisteban del Puerto
- Duque de Santo Buono
- Duque de Santoña
- Duque de Seo d'Urgel =? Duque de Seo de Urgel ?the Prince-bishop ?
- Duque de Silva
- Duque de Soma
- Duque de Soria
- Duque de Sotomayor
- Duque de Suárez
- Duque de Sueca Spanish royalty, Madrilene palace
- Duque de Talavera de la Reina
- Duque de Tamanes
- Duque de Tarancón
- Duque de Tovar
- Duque de Trujillo
- Duque de Uceda
- Duque de Uzeda
- Duque de Valencia de Campos
- Duque de Veragua
- Duque de Vergara
- Duque de Villafranca
- Duque de Villahermosa
- Duque de Villena
- Duque de Vista-Alegre
- Duque de Vistahermoso
- Duque de Vitonton ?
Although length as such should NOT by a criterion (if properly structured, one can easily navigate around- what is still messy?) thes ensible rule for this kind of articles on common titles is to list only specific cases of some importance and/or peculiarity. Obviously the long Spanish list, containing almost no cases of note for non-Spaniards, qualifies, BUT before exporting it to some List of Spanish Ducal titles (in fact most are no true duchies, just titular), the list must FIRST be weeded, for it contains several types of titles in Spanish that are NOT in chief of a place in Spain; I group below some cases I think I can spot on sight (followed by some bonafide Spanish Dukes, and even utterly pointless Spanish translations), for which Spanish titles usually appear in sources because personal unions lead to the Spanish crown awarding them in its other realms and overseas territories, but most likely there are more, as many names don't ring a bell with me - so please keep plucking from the original list until its completely sorted before actually exporting the Spanish titles; we'll see after sorting what is best to do with the other titles, each may fit in another section or page or require one or more other lists of some length. Fastifex 12:49, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Colonial titles
- Duque de Tetuan
- Duque de Algeciras
- Duque de Moctezuma (for the former Aztec imperial family)
[edit] Italian titles
- Duque de Amalfi
- Duque de Lucca
- Duque de Mola
- Duque de Trani held by Norman prince
[edit] Low Countries
- Duque de Croiy
- Duque de T'Serclaes Brussels patrician family
[edit] Portuguese titles
- Duque de Abrantes
[edit] Victory titles
- Duque de la Victoria the very definition!, yet Spanish- renamed in 1954: Duque de la Victoria de las Amézcoas
[edit] Actual SPANISH titles
According to the Spanish Wikipedia, Duque is the highest non-royal title in Spain, and all incumbents are Grandees of Spain, while in the lower classes only a minority has that distinction. The following are places in Spain
- Duque de Abrantes
- Duque de Ahumada
- Duque de Alagón near Saragossa
- Duque de Alba de Tormes
- Duque de Alcalá de los Gazules in Cadiz province
- Duque de Algete in Madrid province
- Duque de Almería provincial capital, ducal crown
- Duque de Almodovar del Rio in Ciduad real province; ducal crown
- Duque de Almodovar del Valle in Cordoba province; ?marquess crown
- Duque de Arjona oldest Spanish duchy
- Duque de Badajoz provincial capital; ducal crown
- Duque de Baena in Cordoba province; ducal crown
- Duque de Béjar in Salamanca province; no crown
- Duque de Benavente in Zamora province; no crown
- Duque de Cádiz
- Duque de Ciudad Real
- Duque de Ciudad Rodrigo
- Duque de Denia in Alicante province; ?marquess crown
- Duque de Escalona in Toledo province; no crown
- Duque da Galícia (region)
- Duque de Gor in Granada province
- Duque de la Alcudia
- Duque de la Torre
- Duque de Lerma in Burgo province; Grandee, created in 1599
- Duque de Madrid
- Duque de Medina de las Torres
- Duque de Medina Sidonia
- Duque de Medinaceli
- Duque de Montblanc instituted by Aragonese king Juan I for his brother Martin in 1387
- Count and Duque de Olivares see Gaspar de Guzmán y Pimentel, Count-Duke of Olivares
- Duque de Osuna see Pedro Tellez Giron, Duque de Osuna
- Duque de Segorbe in Aragonese province Castellon
- Duque de Segovia
- Duque de Sessa
- Duque de Sevilha
- Duque de Soria
- Duque de Tarifa province of Cadiz
- Duque de Vigo
- Duque de Zaragoza
[edit] ABSURDly translated titles: abroad, not under the Spanish crown
- Duque de Montpensier in France!
Obviously corrections, if needed (e.g. there may be less-known homonyms in Spain, or victory titles after less famous battles- please provide some link in such cases), are welcome. Contributors to the sorting ABOVE are invited to sign below Fastifex 12:49, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
- How about keeping only the ones you are sure about, and deleting and exporting to a standalone list the other ones? Having a long list, and full of redlinks, is, in my opinion a poor thing. The only purpose of having such a list would be for your to use the "page down" key several times to scroll to more interesting material down the article. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 19:37, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
This needs a lot of work. Useful sources might be [1], which lists Grandees of Spain (many of them Dukes), and [2] which also lists Dukes. I think this site does a good job of keeping the Neapolitan and Bonapartist titles out of the mix. I agree that this material most certainly ought not be on this page. That said, that doesn't mean that the list isn't interesting in and of itself - there are those of us who are interested in such things. john k 20:24, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Distinction between "royal" and "garden" dukes in the UK
Is "garden" duke the actual name for dukes not styled "HRH"? In duchies in the United Kingdom, we are two told that there are only two duchies in existence, yet the UK is littered with dukes. Do these dukes not have duchies? Some greater elaboration would be helpful. Fishhead64 18:36, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] UK dukes
As there are only now 26 (?), it could be helpful to list them.
[edit] Big split
I've split off most of the content into separate articles. I had to; the article was much too large, and had too much detail, including attempts it seems to list every ducal title defunct and extant. It still needs work. m.e. 13:56, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Duke University
An italic should be added at the top of the page which has a link to Duke University:
For the North Carolina research university, see Duke University. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.10.121.203 (talk) 23:01, 2 April 2007 (UTC).
- There's already a link to the Duke disambiguation page; there's no need for a separate dablink for just one of the articles there. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 08:29, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
