Talk:Drowning

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I added a small reference to fresh-water drowning, where death is not caused by asphyxia. Someone else may want to put together a section about it. Basically what happens is that water is osmotically drawn across the pulmonary epithelium very fast, resulting in hypotonic blood making the red blood cells burst (hemolysis). This changes the content of salts and when this changed blood reaches the heart it causes ventricular fibrillation. Perhaps I should list the source: Medical Physiology, 2nd edition, Rhoades & Tanner. Page 344.

  • I, for one, would like to see this information expanded a little in the the article. Ex nihil 13:11, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] Statistics

I am rather dubious about many of the statistics here and all of the surveys suggest items. I haven't done the research but there must be a good authoritative source, RSLSI? Could someone find the real rate of drownings per country? The real rates of drownings atrributed to causes? The evidence for males and age relatedness? Perhaps in a table? The stats need to be widened beyond the US experience if they are to have any real relevance beyond the US, the stats vary enormously between countries, I am Australian, we drown heaps, I bet Sweden doesn't. The article also needs some sources cited. I took out the 145,000 worldwide, I haven't got anything to refute this but it seems far too low given the world population in billions, I can think of individual events, ferry sinkings, dam collapses, floods, cyclones, tsunamis accounting for hundreds at a time. 145,000 looks like recreational drowning deaths.

The section under: Well-known mechanisms by which a person drowns can be categorized as follows: needs some verification, it suffers from category confusion, does this relate to dangerous situations, the condition of the victim, the process of drowning? It looks as if it has been cut and paste from somewhere, where is that somewhere? Ex nihil 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grotesque Images

I for one am getting a bit tired of the images of corpses and other unnecessary imagery on Wikipedia. Can we please remove this one? It serves no purpose in the article, it is simply a corpse. I'm starting to think Wikipedia editors have an unhealthy fixation with images of death. Just think what would happen if a young grade school student researching something else came upon this. Remember Wikipedia is for everyone and not just adults.

[edit] General stuff

I am not happy with this: Drowning following car accidents is the second most likely cause of injury and death for children up to 14 years . Males are much more likely to drown than females. The leading causes of death may be very different in different parts of the world (I guess neither drowning nor car accidents play a major role in Mauritania), so specific figures should be quoted. And where does the information about male/female risk come from? Kosebamse 07:14, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The numbers are based on an american statistic, so you are right, they probably do not apply worldwide. The same statistic also showed that more men drown than women. This, however can quite likely be the same worldwide, as men are more likely to take risks (and hence to fail the odds) than females. I will see if i can find a reference. -- chris_73 07:21, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the prompt reply! I have rephrased that sentence a little to be less specific, but references would be fine. By the way, in causes of drowning there seems to be nothing about inability to swim. Do you know if there are any figures about how many people drown because they have not learnt swimming? Kosebamse 07:25, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Got the reference with "more males", and "high risk below 14": Water-Related Injuries. It has also some info about drowning due to the inability to swim. However, I think (but dont have the exact data yet), most people drown for other reasons (drunk, unconscious, trapped, exhaustion, cold, currents ...). Also, a normal person will naturally float in the water, and can happily breathe with the nose and mouth above the water almost indefinitely. They drown if they panik or get exhausted. I will check . -- chris_73 07:30, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Couldnt find a reference about how many people drown because they cant swim. Found one ref, but this was misquoting another study, and just attributed all causes to "cannot swim". It seems, one problem is to distinguish the different causes, sort of "Was it the cold water, the waves, being drunk or being a bad swimmer?". There are many statistics about the location, if you need that. BTW thanks for improving the article! -- chris_73 07:48, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

"Even after brain death some cells of the body will continue to live, and for example hair may grow."

Myth - see http://www.snopes.com/science/nailgrow.htm (and since the cause of apparent shrinkage is *dehydration* of tissue, unlikely to occur in drowning). --Calair 03:59, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The instances where people survived under water for extended periods of time, however, is not a myth. This is known as cold water drowning -- Chris 73 Talk 06:41, Sep 6, 2004 (UTC)
It's not a myth. It is, however, in the article twice - under "Cardiac Arrest and Death" and again at the end of "Rescue and Treatment" - which is why I removed one and only one of those appearances. That's what the 'duplicate' in the edit summary was for. --Calair 06:49, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
OK, my mistake, I missed that. -- Chris 73 Talk 12:20, Sep 6, 2004 (UTC)
No problem. I think I did a better job of it second time around, anyway; shouldn't have removed it from the first-aid section but from the other. --Calair 22:56, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I did a tremendous amount of gramatical revision to this page and fixed some of the above concerns. In the process, several lines struck me. "Near drowning incidents are estimated to be 2 to 500 times the number of drowning incidents."

As an engineer I think it's silly to report such uncertain data.

"If the victim is physically much stronger than the rescuer, there may be cases where it is advisable for the rescuer to wait until the victim passes out so that the victim does not accidentally drown the rescuer."

Though I am not a trained EMS responder, this seems ludicrous and potentially dangerous to include in Wikipedia. If you have either the credentials or sources to back it up, please put it back in.

--Casito 23:37, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your great work in fixing Grammar. About the "wait till victim passes out": I have a number of lifesaving licenses in Germany and the US (but no EMS), and this point was definitely taught in the German classes, and I think also in the US classes. A panicking victim can drown a weaker rescuer, and it is always advised to approach a panicking victim in the water from behind, using a special grip to secure and immobilize the victim. If the panicking victim is stronger than the rescuer, the victim can drown the rescuer. In this case it is better to wait until the victim calms down (i.e. passes out). In the worst case, this would mean one person dead (victim) instead of two (victim and rescuer). However, I agree that ethically and also legally, this topic is difficult. Hope this answered your question. -- Chris 73 Talk 00:56, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
  • Ex nihil 01:36, 7 February 2006 (UTC) I have added a brief discussion of latent hypoxia and hypocapnia under Initial Oxygen Starvation. These are the two basic self induced hypoxic mechanisms for blackout on ascent from depth and blackout without depth after hyperventilation. Unfortunately there is some confusion about the terms shallow water blackout and deep water blackout because the term SWB is often used in US scuba Open Water curricula to refer to latent hypoxia leaving nothing to cover the shallow water hypocapnic blackout. Also some scuba divers use DWB as technical shorthand slang to refer to one aspect of nitrogen narcosis. Both mechanisms kill a lot of swimmers and need some clarification. I would rely on the articles shallow water blackout and deep water blackout to provide any more detail. I think this section could do with a bit of a rewrite for the sake of lucidity. I might attempt it is this last edit settles.

[edit] More about what to do if someone tries to drown you

Cant you add a bit on how to defend yourself if someone tries to drown you under Prevention?Ollie the Magic Skater 20:13, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean someone trying to drown you intentionally, or a panicking victim pushing you under water. My (layman) advice, in a loose order of preference:
  • try to get away
  • try to get out of reach (behind the attacker/panicked person)
  • try to use a arresting grip/police grip
  • for panicked person: dive under water to get out of sight (out of mind)
  • for intentional drowning: use self defense techniques, due to the nature of the water kicks probably won't work very well, probably better to poke the eye or hit the throat area.
-- Chris 73 | Talk 21:44, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] "Last thoughts of Near-Drowning Victims Before Unconsiousness", Vandalism?

Near drowning victims often report that their last thought before unconsciousness was imagining other people's reaction to their drownings, and feeling embarrassed and ashamed for being stupid enough to drown, believing that smart people would be able to prevent their own drownings (For a list of causes see swimming).

This sounds a lot like vandalism, which was why I initially deleted it. Is this true, because to me it seems like hear say at best, and mean-spiritedness toward drowning victims at worst. If someone is going to make this bold and touchy a claim in this article, they should atleast provide a cite. To me, strolling in to this article, it just seems too unbelievable. I would think other people seeing the article would feel the same way to.--64.60.64.146 15:26, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I added this when i expanded the article quite some time ago. The source is a book about crabfishing in Alaska. (it was either Working on the Edge : Surviving In the World's Most Dangerous Profession: King Crab Fishing on Alaska's HighSeas or Nights of Ice : True Stories of Disaster and Survival on Alaska's High Seas, don't remember which one exactly, since i read both). The book was not a novel, but non-fiction. As for mean spirited: these is the short form of comments from near drowning survivors, not really nice, but true, and the goal of Wikipedia is not to be nice, but stick to facts. The exact formulation of the text can of course be adjusted, and maybe formulated in a nicer way, but I strongly believe this should stay, as it gives great insight into the drowning process. If you want to adjust the text, please go ahead and improve the article, just don't remove it. Hope this helps. -- Chris 73 | Talk 15:36, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I just wanted a cite. Without your cite it looks like vandalism using made up information to troll. Now that I know it's actual fact, I agree, it should be kept. Though, I really think it would be best to add the cite to warn people that this is actual reported fact and not fiction.--24.130.125.164 01:09, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Heimlich

I was looking at the following paragraph:

"The Heimlich maneuver is needed only for obstructed airways, not for water in the airways. Performing the Heimlich maneuver on drowning victims not only delays ventilation, it may induce vomiting - the vomit may then be aspirated, leading to serious injury or death. Furthermore, news articles have raised concerns that the entire concept is not only useless, but that Dr. Henry Heimlich used fabricated case reports to promote the idea:" [And it has a link here]

The first part, specifically,

"The Heimlich maneuver is needed only for obstructed airways, not for water in the airways. Performing the Heimlich maneuver on drowning victims not only delays ventilation, it may induce vomiting - the vomit may then be aspirated, leading to serious injury or death,"

seems fine. It is informative and all that good stuff. But it's the last portion that I'm concerned about:

"Furthermore, news articles have raised concerns that the entire concept is not only useless, but that Dr. Henry Heimlich used fabricated case reports to promote the idea . . . ."

It seems out of place, and almost takes a biased standpoint. It's out of place because this is an article about drowning, not about the Heimlich maneuvre, whether or not the Heimlich can be used on a drowning victim. And it seems biased because, while it has a link to a site (which, from my opinion, feels a bit amateur-ish to be a substantiated news source), because it seems to disregard any chance that the maneuvre is viable; it is a one-sided argument.

Anyways, I'm just bringing this up because I was curious what others thought about it. I am new here, and I don't want to go changing this if it shouldn't be changed, therefore I leave it up to someone a bit more experienced on this to make the decision.

Ex nihil 04:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC) I think you are right, I have adjusted that section. See what you think.


Much better, thank you.

[edit] Image:SWB3 temp.jpg

Hi. This is a very well written article. I liked the language. Just curious.. is that picture of the drowning lady real? Sorry i dont have a login. Once again, its a wonderful article.

Thanks for the compliments. The image is staged, I believe (but I cant't find where). I'll ask the uploader. -- Chris 73 | Talk 10:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes the image is staged. Ex nihil 08:29, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
What was the goal of this picture? It seems quite macabre. It's certainly understandable that you may want to put up a picture of your daughter, but it's just hard to see how it fits in with the educational value of the article. --Groovyk 07:39, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
The image was actually made for Shallow water blackout, not drowning, someone borrowed it but that's OK. My daughter and I have an interest in educating people in this area. The pool that hosted this picture experienced a real shallow water blackout and this was exactly how the victim was found. The intent was to illustrate that people drown silently and unnoticed as opposed to the drama attached to the traditional splashing, waving and shouting you see in the movies. This picture is entirely applicable to drowning 'though; the first you are likely to be aware that someone is in trouble in your pool is seeing something like this. I hope that the picture changes people's idea of what a drowning might look like. If you were shocked it's been successful. Ex nihil 10:28, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
The picture is very appropriate to illustrate the article I think. It's quite a good picture, looks realistic, and I am very glad it is just staged. -- Chris 73 | Talk 11:01, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How-to reduction

The introduction to the how-to list was a good addition. Currently there are no established guidelines to the reduction of how-to content, but any ideas and discussion would be welcome here, and also on the how-to category talk page. Santtus 12:11, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Not sure when a 'how to' becomes fact but the way the Prevention para is rewritten now I believe could be taken as objective information on relevant, related practice rather than instruction on prevention. Drowning and its prevention go hand in hand so something should be placed here. How do people feel about removing the tag? Ex nihil 02:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Old wives tales?

Me and my friend are having an argument about whether "don't eat before swimming" is old wive's tales or sound advice. In our counry (Greece) it is part of the swimming guidelines published by the authorities every summer. On the other hand "don't take a lot of fast, deep breaths before diving" is not.

There is nothing about it in the article, but we noticed one of the editors has lifeguard training. Would they (or someone else) have something to say on the matter?

If it's true that you shouldn't swim after eating it should be added to the article too.

  • That used to be taught in the UK up to the 1980's on the basis that it caused cramps. My understanding now is that this is discredited, certainly it seems absent from swimming, diving and LS curricula. Someone in authority in current teaching practice out there?? Ex nihil 06:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Drowning pictures

I have temporarily removed the SWB image from this article on behalf of the girl who staged it. I have added the comment below to the Talk page of FoxSports Radio by way of explanation: FoxSportsRadio, I note the copyright issues on the pictures you have added and this will resolve sometime over the next week. However, even if it is resolved in favour of retaining the pictures my feeling is that they do not improve the article and should be removed anyway. The SWB image was staged for the didactic purpose of showing how a victim can expect to be found, it is accurate and the article only needs one. The additions are very repetitive and probably inaccurate anyway, the victim can float but will assume a foetal position, not that high out of the water and generally will sink in fresh water. The picture of the decomposed body may have a genuine function on another article dealing with decomposition but seems gratuitous here, this is not the condition of somebody who has just drowned or is in the process of drowning. Unfortunately, the subject of the SWB picture, who was supportive of staging the picture to illustrate shallow water blackout is upset about the association with these additions and therefore I have removed that picture on her behalf until the matter is resolved. Ex nihil 03:51, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Torture and execution???

As drowning is linked from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture, either this should be elaborated on here, or removed from the torture page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.197.131.165 (talk) 03:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Drowning images

Those images show the effects while drowning (the girl in the red suit) and the permanent damage after drowning (the dead girl in the blue tank). Catherine Woods 13:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Images again

Is it really necessary to show images of presumed dead people? I seems a bit childish to me. We all know what happens if you drown and don't get help in time. No educational value of these images. Seems they were put up just for show. If you really must know what a dead person looks like go to http://www.rotten.com.

Mentat78 14:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


I couldn't agree more with Catherine and Mentat78. The pictures of corpses add nothing to the article. If the photo of the girl in the pool is staged, it should be clearly stated as such. Other articles I've seen involving causes of death don't show a corpse of a victim. I have no problem with photos demonstrating key points, and even encourage them, however these seem to be added for 'shock' value. This is clearly not appropriate for this article in my opinion.

--Gclinkscales 10:27, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

None of the people shown in photos is dead. I removed a bunch of images with questionable licenses. The one image with a suitable license should stay, of course labeled as staged. -- Chris 73 | Talk 17:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Chris, you are wrong. Both the people featured in these pictures are dead. They drowned. Catherine Woods 20:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Fair use images are not allowed if there is a free image alternative available. Besides, these images are staged. -- Chris 73 | Talk 21:29, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I staged the picture myself to illustrate an important characteristic of shallow water blackout. I agree that if it is just a picture purporting to be a dead body it does not contribute. The purpose was to illustrate that people tend to drown very quietly and unnoticed on the bottom rather than in the classic yelling and waving on surface and that what they should be looking for is what you see in the picture. That would be useful information to convey and is in keeping with TV ads and website images used by at least two national lifesaving organisations in France and Australia. In that context alone it is a useful picture but perhaps it should be clearly connected to some text to that effect. Ex nihil 01:05, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Fair use images are not allowed if there is a free image alternative available. I know. But, these images are not staged. These pictures show two dead girls. They have drowned. So don't drop the bomb that they're staged, I've met with their parents, they've said that they're daughters drowned. THEY ARE DEAD. THEY ARE NOT STAGED. THERE. Catherine Woods 00:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
As per Wikipedia:Fair use, i have deleted the fair use images since there is a alternative image with a free license available. Please do not upload these images again. -- Chris 73 | Talk 07:49, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The pathophysiology of drowning

The subchapter The pathophysiology of drowning contradicts

Both describe as first phase a cold shock with increased pulmonary ventilation, i.e. severe hyperventilation, and a massive increase in heart rate and blood pressure. -- Xypron 00:10, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

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