Talk:Dreamfall

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Contents 1 Suggestion for plot "holes" 2 Spoiler warning 3 Pebbles do have a purpose 4 POV and percentages 5 Proposal: Deleting "Media reception" section 6 Just a note 7 Dilogy? 8 Cliffhanger 9 The screenshots 10 Development Time 11 Game Play 12 Trivia 13 Is this correct 14 Helena 15 Low priority 16 Awards and Media reception 16.1 Awards, again 17 Connection to Australian Aboriginal mythology? 18 Silhouette of Zoë 19 Title: Dreamfall or Dreamfall: The Longest Journey? 20 is Faith an Onryō?

[edit] Suggestion for plot "holes"

One of the things I was wondering about for quite some time that I think should be added to the list of unresolved elements is the strange creatures that live underground between Stark and Arcadia. It seems to me that these could be the remnants of the Tyren who invaded Marcuria, since not much else is said about them besides that they were a barbaric tribe who invaded, and the creatures (especially Grubbers) seem to generally fit that description to me. The idea may also be supported by saying that perhaps these are just the small amount who decided not to fight or who retreated after the Azadi fought them off, so they lived underground since they had nowhere else to go. It makes sense that they could have possibly escaped from upper Arcadia to this area (though it is not truly confirmed this area is a part of Arcadia) because when Zoe opens the portal between the two places, it required the melody that these creatures sing to open their doors, so they obviously know how to open it to go back and forth if they desired, as well as the hooded messenger that April follows, who can order them around. This also brings some interesting questions about what link they have to the Chamber of Dreams, since this is in their "area," it seems they may have had some kind of connection to this. It does seem a little odd, though, that since I believe April was around when the Tyren invaded (correction?) she would have recognized them as such when she went underground, though when you examine their statues in the 4-statue maze puzzle down in the caves, she says something about the statues looking very familiar to a species she saw up on the surface.

One other issue that is odd is how Benrime claims that she didn't see the hooded messenger pass through the Journeyman Inn when April clearly saw him walk through the door, and he would have had to walk right past Benrime since the door to the portal is behind the bar. Is it possible he cast an invisibility spell of some sort on himself before he walked through? Is she involved in a deeper, anti-April plot in somehow and was covering up for the guy? This struck me as really strange but it was never explained.

I was just thinking about adding these to that list, someone else can shorten them and paraphrase if they want to, after more opinions about if they should be added or not are collected. I'm probably going to play through the game again because I feel like there were a few other elements that were left unresolved that I'm forgetting about.Aeugnewtype 00:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The unresolved issue with the Grubbers may indeed be considered notable, however, I don't think they are Tyren, more like distant relatives of Banda (see Na'ane and April's dialogue about them, plus, April has had much more contact with them than with Tyren), like Maerum and Alatien are related to each other. But that explanation could be added, too. However, the thing with the unnoticeable Prophet is very likely explained by his magical powers. AFAIR Benrime wasn't alone in the tavern and unless we assume that everyone inside was part of the conspiracy, as well, I believe it's easier to accept the Prophet's magical invisibility abilities (that are hardly unprecedented in TLJ). --Koveras ^☭ 07:04, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking about the Prophet's invisibility earlier today. Perhaps the fact that only April seemingly saw him is also part of the plot? I mean, maybe it's one of her other abilities we have yet to know about? ~ Wapiko 06:19, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

It is most likely. She is, after all, the only artisan in the games who has been clearly identified as such (although she has yet to develop those dormant abilities of hers). --Koveras ^☭ 07:42, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spoiler warning

When more plot detail is added to the page, please remember to add the {{spoiler}} and {{endspoiler}} tags appropriately. Burns flipper 11:55, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pebbles do have a purpose

I removed this sentence:

These pebbles do not have a use, and inexplicably disappear once she gets to the Journeyman Inn.

They do have a use. You can throw them at the sea to distract the creatures (not that you really need to since you can easily sneak past them without doing so)... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nil Einne (talk • contribs) .

[edit] POV and percentages

Anon editor said in his edit summary: "Fix media reception overview POV: Overall, the reviews are clearly positive, see the link. Therefore the summary shouldn't use 75% of the words for negative aspects." Said edit significantly changed the content of that paragraph and not only removes the mention of the shortness of the game, but also downplays the severity of the negative critical response to the combat and stealth elements in the game.

Just to pick examples, I quote GameSpy: "Second, there's the addition of a poor fighting system that's nothing but a confused button-mashing affair, and some "stealth" sequences that are even worse than the fighting system." And IGN: "[I]ntelligent design was given a back seat to painfully simplistic fighting and sneaking sequences. The combat is, for all intents and purposes, a total joke." And The Onion A.V. Club: "The developers made just one mistake: They forgot the game. Instead of going the out-of-fashion route of stumping players at every turn, they scaled back the difficulty—and came up with something that has the interactivity of a pop-up book. Aside from a handful of trivial puzzles and awkward fight scenes, you'll spend hours just walking from one dialogue and plot point to the next." And The New York Times: "The good news for adventure gamers is that battles are infrequent and so easy that your cat could win a fight by randomly pushing controller buttons with its nose. Unfortunately, jabbing at a couple of buttons until your enemy falls down is not a lot of fun."

This is a significant negative critical response from important publications to what is not only a fairly important element of the game but also a notable change from the previous game in the series. It should not be downplayed, and we certainly can't go by percentages, of all things -- we're providing information here, and NPOV is not about calculating how many people in the world like something and then making sure any article about that subject has a comparable percentage of words devoted to information about positive response. Honestly, the very concept boggles the mind.

Accordingly, I'm restoring the section in question and would prefer that anyone who feels the need to tone the negative aspects down again would explain his reasoning before doing so (and perhaps register an account here to make communication easier). -- Captain Disdain 10:41, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

You are not saying the truth: I didn't "remove" any shortness you mentioned. Instead I added(!) positive aspects.

Your summary wording was not NPOV, because it lists negative aspects in detail (gameplay, combat, stealth), whereas the positive side is only mentioned generally in half a sentence, without listing positive aspects in detail. This does simply not reflect the fact that overall critics are positive.

Ok, now I did the following changes:

1. I added(!) the positive aspects again. I think this should be really no problem.

2. I use the wording "most critics ... are positive" again, first because this is just the truth (see the meta-critics link), and second because it is easier (the old one was a quote from the meta-critics side which you cannot understand without looking at the definition at their site).

3. I DIDN'T change the wording of the negative aspects of the game, since the particular wording ("simplistic and unsatisfying" instead of "half-hearted") seems to the important for you.

4. I added the word "new" again, because without this word is sounded like a regression compared to the predecessor, but in fact the predecessor had no such elements at all.

5. I merged your two sentences into one, so that now there is one sentence about the postive aspects, and one about the negative aspects. Is this really a problem for a game where most reviews are positive? 84.151.119.113 06:56, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, uh, yes you did. When "[W]hile some lament the shortness of gameplay. The game has also been criticized for its simplistic and unsatisfying combat and stealth elements." becomes "Some criticize the gameplay, for example the half-hearted new combat and stealth elements.", I would say that you did indeed remove specific things from the article -- it's not just the wording of the latter part, you removed the bit about the shortness of the gameplay entirely.

But you're right, adding the positive aspects is no problem, that's certainly fair enough. The current version looks good, fair and NPOV-friendly to me. Nice job. And thanks for responding here -- it always makes life easier in situations like this when people explain themselves. =) -- Captain Disdain 08:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I didn't want to remove negative aspects; now I realize that with "shortness of gameplay" you ment something more specific than just "shortcomings of gameplay", so now I understand your complaint - sorry for that. 84.151.119.113 16:25, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal: Deleting "Media reception" section

I propose deleting the whole "media reception" section. I've never seen such a section in any other entry for a computer game. (And I've browsed the history of the entry of this game, and my impression is that a single person just wanted to make the game down.) Instead, I suggest adding an external link to the review overview. The meta-critics page anyway has a better summary of reviews, and a good selection of review quotes. Objections? 84.151.119.113 07:14, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, many, if not most of our lenghtier video game articles deal with how the game was received among the critics and the players. That said, I have no problem with moving the information under that heading somewhere else, though, as long as the actual content -- which I feel is very relevant for anyone who's not already familiar with the game and wants to read up on it -- is preserved.

As for a single person "wanting to make the game down", if you're referring to me... please. I didn't create the "Media Reception" section, and the media reception of the combat and stealth elements has been pretty negative -- indeed, even many, if not all of the MetaCritic reviews that give them game an excellent score point comment negatively on these segments. (As a matter of fact, the single best score of the bunch is from GameSpy, and even that refers to the combat as "confused button-mashing affair" and immediately goes on to say that the "stealth sequences are even worse", which is hardly high praise.) -- Captain Disdain 08:35, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't referring to you. If I remember correctly, at some earlier stage, someone added the section about "mixed reviews" at a stage where the page didn't contain anything useful about the game itself. I would say this is untypical - why does someone cite negative reviews instead of first writing about the game itself? Usually fans of a game are the first who start contributing to the Wikipedia entry of the game, writing about the game itself.

Yes, many of the MetaCritics reviews mention the same negative aspects, but neverthanless most reviews are definitely positive. Which is understandable, because both combat and stealth play no major role in the game, and they even didn't exist in TLJ at all. Therefore it is no fundamental problem if they are bad in Dreamfall. If Dreamfall would be an fighting game, then it would have a serious problem, of course.

Look, folks, I agree that the "Reception" section should stay but if someone thinks it does not contain NPOV, they are free to correct it. :) --Koveras 17:16, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Just a note

Might change the PEGI rating in the article now, as this game gone 16+ now.

[edit] Dilogy?

I noticed that under the Questions raised by the story section, someone has mentioned that Dreamfall may in fact be part of a dilogy, with a future release concluding the story. In this case, wouldn't the series in fact be a trilogy, The Longest Journey being the first part, Dreamfall the second, and the as yet unconfirmed final chapter the third? I know Ragnar Tornquist has said that he plans to finish the story, one way or the other, but whether or not there will be a video game sequel depends partly on how well Dreamfall sells. In either case, I would think that the Longest Journey would still definitely be an integral part of the series, making it a trilogy. RightClickSaveAs 21:22, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

It's a bit tricky, you see: TLJ was a completely independend and finished work. Dreamfall can also be played independently, but it is unfinished, so there'll probably be "Dreamfall 2" a.k.a. "TLJ3". The tricky part is whether we consider Dreamfall a finished game or a half of the game (say, "TLJ2") with the other half still unpublished. Therefore we must draw a line between The Longest Journey trilogy (TLJ, Dreamfall, Dreamfall II) and the Dreamfall dilogy (Dreamfall, Dreamfall II). I also want to point out that in one of the early interwviews Tornquist mentioned that he had plans for a TLJ sequel and a pequel in his head, so, if Dreamfall dilogy is that sequel, the prequel is yet to be announced. TLJ trilogy may well turn out to be a tetralogy. --Koveras 08:25, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

This isn't mine but the comparison between the Star Wars 4-6 trilogy is IMHO an apt one here. Star Wars 4 was more or less a complete story. Star Wars 5 ended abruptly with lots of unanswered questions although it was still IMHO a complete story in it's own right ala DF. Nil Einne 14:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

This comparison has been, in fact, long circulated among the fans and is generally agreed upon as reasonable. :) --Koveras ^☭ 15:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cliffhanger

What about Helena Chang? Why did she kill Zoe? And I might be wrong, but isn't implied thats shes Zoes mother? Before she kills Zoe she says "You really are a very beautiful girl, so like your father. I never thought I'd see you again"

This is not a discussion thread, but an encyclopedia. :) If you want to discuss the game, I can advice the official forums. --Koveras 15:18, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

There is indeed a strong sugestion that she's zoës mother, this should be inserted in the "Questions raised by the story" section Markornikov 21:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The screenshots

I was wondering why the thumbnails were reduced to 200px and all aligned to the left. I felt that it had more of an estetic value if there was some shuffling of the screenies, and not just sticking them all to the left. Furthermore, I believe that the 300px was not hindering the overall look of the article, and should be restored to that value. These pictures are too tiny now, you can't see anything on them, you HAVE to click to see the fullsize in order to see anything. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vniksic (talk • contribs).

First of all, Wikipedia isn't a promotional pamphlet to look all cool and flashy. While I understand your wish to make the article more visually attractive, I assure you that to people who use lower screen resolutions, 300px width of the illustrations looks really huge and hence makes the page unreadable. And the whole reason behind thumbs is to make people click on them if interested or ignore them at wish. Moreover, AFAIU the current set of screenshots does not contain any crucial information about the game. As for their alignment, let's just say that the further apart the graphical elements (here, list bullets and images) are, the less overloaded the page looks. --Koveras 13:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

How about a compromise, I was looking through other game-related articles, and they generally have 250px and have them aligned to the left and right. So, perhaps, we could align them as they were, and put 250px thumbs? What do you say? Vladimir

All right, let's try it out. :) --Koveras 08:44, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Development Time

Does anyone know how long it took to develop Dreamfall? Some sort of development history would be welcome. The Longest Journey was completed in 1999. Unless there were some (financial) difficulties, I can't imagine it took them 6-7 years to develop Dreamfall. More information would be welcome. --Shadowcode 15:14, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

One segment in Ragnar Tørnquist's personal blog reads, "Even if we could, I don’t think we’d want to jump right into a Dreamfall sequel. You want a bit of distance and perspective after three long years in the trenches."[1] Pending more precise information, the current answer to your question appears to be "about three years." PattonPending 23:47, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Game Play

What sort of game play does it entail, what camera view, etc. --Dark Side of the Moon 00:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

Doesn't Zöe's cellphone play the first part of the intro to the original sid meier's civilization where the world is created? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aza (talk • contribs).

[edit] Is this correct

While Na'ane says that she plans to go to the ancient ruins underneath Marcuria to investigate the song magic of the strange creatures that live there, no further information is provided about her voyage there, and the next time she appears is when she leads Kian to April's location.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure they showed the sequence wheen Na'ane was caught by Kian Nil Einne 14:32, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, technically, it is the scene where she starts leading him to April. %) --Koveras ^☭ 15:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Helena

The relation between Faith, Helena Chang, and Zoe Castillo is unclear. Helena Chang knew a Castillo once, and seems to have known Zoe for a long time (there are hints throughout the story that she's, in fact, her biological mother). Helena Chang might also be the 'white lady' that Faith refers to at the end of the game. Further, Faith believes that she is Zoe's sister and that might not be so far-fetched, seeing as we do not know anything definite about Zoe's mother.

Unless my memory is failing me, Helena specifically said something about knowing Zoe's father as well at the end (something like "You remind me of your father"). Perhaps this is one of the hints that Helena iz Zoe's mother that we mention but it seems to me that's it compelling enough to mention. Also, shouldn't we mentioned that Zoe's mother supposedly died at some stage when Zoe was young Nil Einne 14:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

No, at the beginning she only mentions "a Castillo". But she does say that Zoe looks like her father in the very end, when Zoe has gone to sleep. As for the Zoe's mother's death, I think, it has to be included as early as in the character section... --Koveras ^☭ 15:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Well yes, that's what I said/meant. If she said Zoe looks like her father, she must at least know what he looks like. To me this implies she knew him but it is possible she would know what he looks like without knowing him I guess Nil Einne 20:10, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Low priority

Anyone else feel low priority within gaming is unfair? IMHO it deserves at least a mid priority. TLJ is high priority BTW Nil Einne 07:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Looking through the history, it was originally given mid [2] but downgraded to low by someone else [3]. I feel like being bold and increasing it myself, but I'm a fan so obviously biased Nil Einne 07:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Seeing that the game has got some awards and spawned huge discussions on internet forums, I've moved the priority back to Mid. It may be not the most prominent game release of 2006, but it's certainly in the top 50. :) --Koveras ^☭ 08:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Awards and Media reception

How would people feel about making awards its own section and slotting it lower in the article, perhaps near the trivia section? That's usually how it's done on other pages, isn't it? And if the awards section is moved then the "Media reception" section would only be about critical response, so how about renaming it something like "critical reception" or something like that?—Vancouver86er 09:26, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Awards

GameSpot
Won	Best of E3: Best Adventure Game (2004)
Nominated	Best Xbox Game (2006)
GameSpy
Won	PC Adventure Game of the Year (2006)
IGN
Runner-Up	PC Best Original Score (2006)
2006 MTV Video Music Awards
Nominated	Best Video Game Score (Leon Willett) (2006)

Sounds reasonable. Though the trivia section has to go, anyway, sooner or later. :) Additionally, I don't like the lot of empty white space we currently have to the right of the awards list. Even if we did move the list down, we'd still have the article stretched thin... I therefore propose following: we format the awards list as a table you can see on your right and leave it hanging in the reception section. However, the section itself will be renamed to "Critical reception", as you suggested, and all subheadings be removed. Additionally, the entire section should be moved down beneath the soundtrack, for I feel bad about separating Story/Chara sections and "Questions". :) What do you think? --Koveras ^☭ 11:43, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Let me just clarify this a bit ... you're suggesting that: (1) the awards section will be kept within the "Media reception" section, which will be renamed "Critical reception," (2) the awards section will be reformatted into a table, and (3) the new "Critical reception" section will be moved lower and will replace the "Trivia" section, which you say will have to go. Did that get all that right? Other than not being up to speed on the whole trivia, "keep it or lose it" controversy, I've got no problem with your proposals. By the way, why do you want to get rid of the trivia section? Don't all long game pages have a trivia section?—Vancouver86er 18:11, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Me, I have no problem with trivia but according to 1001 criteria of a featured article, no trivia should be allowed. I don't say that it has to go immediately, but be warned that sooner or later some wikinazi's gonna show up and propose our article for deletion because there is a trivia section in it. And trust me, appeals to other game articles with large similar sections will just be ignored - I've seen that far too many times. Oh, and yes, you've got me 100% right. :) Who of us two is gonna do it? --Koveras ^☭ 19:25, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I guess I'll do it ... I'll leave the trivia section alone and let people dilliberate —Vancouver86er 02:24, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Great job and a wise decision. :) --Koveras ^☭ 12:56, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

---

Should we really include the readers' choices to the list? --Koveras ^☭ 15:49, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Awards, again

Uhm, the list is really getting out of hand now... I propose following new structure:

Awards and distinctions

Publisher	Won	Runner-Up	Nominated
GameSpot	Best of E3: Best Adventure Game (2004) Best Voice Acting (2006) Reader's Choice Best Xbox Game (2006) Reader's Choice Best Game No One Played (2006)		Best of E3: Best Adventure Game (2005) Best Xbox Game (2006) Best Original Music (2006) Best Story (2006) Best New Character: Zoë Castillo (2006) Best Game No One Played (2006)
GameSpy	Best of E3: Best Adventure Game (2004) April Game of the Month (2006) Editor's Choice (2006) PC Adventure Game of the Year (2006) Xbox Adventure Game of the Year (2006) PC Best Music (2006) PC Best Story (2006) PC Adventure Gamers' Choice (2006)	3rd in Xbox Top 5 Games of the Year (2006) 5th in Xbox Gamers' Choice (2006) 8th in PC Top 10 Games of the Year (2006) 10th in PC Overall Gamers' Choice (2006)
AdventurePlanet.it	Best 3D Graphics (2006) Best Plot (2006) Best Audio (2006) Best Character: Zoë Castillo (2006) Best Third Person Adventure (2006) Best Adventure (2006)	2nd in Best Dialogues (2006) 3rd in Best Atmosphere (2006)
Interactive Achievement Awards			Outstanding Achievement in Story and Character Development (2007)

And so on, then put it to the bottom of the Reception section. I am also thinking about removing the redundant "(2006)" message and instead mentioning somewhere in the vicinity that "all awards from year 2006 unless specifically stated otherwise". Now I expect creative comments. ;) --Koveras ^☭ 14:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Connection to Australian Aboriginal mythology?

Is it just me or is many parts of the game connected to (or at least borrowed elements from) the Australian Aboriginal mythology? Things like Alchera, Eingana and Dreamtime are documented on Wikipedia and I've added it in the Trivia section. Does anyone know more about this? --antilived^{T | C | G} 10:28, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, in fact, there are many allusions to different mythologies and countries in Dreamfall. See this web-site. --Koveras ^☭ 12:25, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Silhouette of Zoë

From the article:

Further when April is underground in the river there can be seen a silhouette of Zoë standing in the river. It is interesting to note that at this time Zoë is standing near Eingana, thus suggesting that the Chamber of Dreams that April enters is also Eingana, just as how in the Longest Journey, Gordan had representations in both worlds.

This may just be a glitch in some releases of the game in certain regions and possibly has nothing to do with the story. There are threads about it here and here --84.9.199.157 11:52, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title: Dreamfall or Dreamfall: The Longest Journey?

The title seems to be Dreamfall: The Longest Journey, still this page is named simply Dreamfall. Does anyone know what is correct. Also The Longest Journey referes to the original norwegian title (Den Lengste Reisen), why doesn't this do the same (Drømmefall: Den Lengste Reisen). Mamen 11:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Dreamfall: The Longest Journey is the full title that indicates that subj is the sequel to TLJ, however, simple Dreamfall is the more commonly used title simply because it's shorter. --Koveras ^☭ 11:47, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] is Faith an Onryō?

The little girl is very similar to the one from Ring movie series... also to Alma from F.E.A.R. game. Could her character be based on Onryō legend? --sturm 00:17, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not the first time Faith is mentioned in this context and it is certainly not random, however, before we add something as OR, one should first find a review or another article that points out the similarity between Samara, Alma, and Faith (it shouldn't be too much of a problem btw)... Then, we can put this into Cultural references section. :) --Koveras ^☭ 07:46, 24 March 2007 (UTC)