Talk:Double bass

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Double bass has been listed as a good article under the good-article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a review.

Double bass has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

Earlier talk can be found at:

• Talk:double bass/Archive1
• Talk:double bass/Archive2
• Talk:double bass/Archive3
• Talk:double bass/Archive4
• Talk:double bass/Archive5

Contents 1 Strategy to improve the article 2 Rhythm and blues 3 New jazz photo 4 internal structure of double bass 5 Usage 6 Diagram 7 Jazz Bass pic 8 Intonation 9 Range picture 10 Playing hazards and the funky chicken 11 Pegbox 12 Strings section citation not actually needed 13 GA Re-Review and In-line citations 14 bow section pics 15 Plagiarism/Copyright Issues? 16 Fernando Grillo 17 Length of instrument 18 another diagram change 19 zubin mehta?? 20 Violin Family 21 Terminology 22 Size 23 Five strings

[edit] Strategy to improve the article

Here is where we will put together a list of issues and strategies, based on comments made above. Feel free to add to the list, or to add signed comments against each item. I have only started this as a template for me or others to proceed on. Andrew Kepert 01:21, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• Overall structure and focus of article

• Problem: some inconsistencies with depth and treatment of different musical styles. Andrew Kepert 01:21, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• Suggestion: Sections "DB in classical music", "DB in jazz", "DB in bluegrass" etc covering (in paras or subsections) the role of the DB in that field, repetoire, styles, influential musicians. Andrew Kepert 01:21, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• History

• Problem: muddy POV of origin of bass construction. Andrew Kepert 01:21, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• Suggestion: real research, or reference to real research (rather than folklore). Andrew Kepert 01:21, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rhythm and blues

In the article, it jumps from jazz to bluegrass to early rock and roll. But the link is the early rhythm and blues of Louis Jordan (very popular throughout the 1940s), which did use a double bass to great effect. Bill Haley copied Jordan's basic style years later. This should probably be added in the early part of the "pop" paragraph, as Jordan is generally credited as being the bridge between jazz and rock and roll. Here's an article about his bassist: http://library.missouristate.edu/meyer/speccoll/Bartley/pages/playing.htm Badagnani 20:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Please add it! 8-)--Light current 00:44, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, I put something in. Badagnani 01:19, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New jazz photo

That is one fantastic photo! Badagnani 22:54, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Although it doesn't show Foster "in action." Badagnani 22:55, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I had to crop it out of a picture off of a magazine cover. — ßottesiηi ^(talk) 23:30, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

It looks cropped because there's some other guy muscling into the shot. Check out the slapping link I just added if you get a chance; it's extremely informative. Badagnani 23:32, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Is it my imagination, or has that bass that Foster is holding got a shorter than normal neck> 8-?--Light current 00:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It really doesn't look all that short to me, and it could have something to do with the perspective of the shot. — ßottesiηi ^(talk) 00:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] internal structure of double bass

I am wondering about the credibility of A New History of the Double Bass saying that the double bass is the member of the violin family. Does the double bass really have the internal structure similar to that of violin, viola, and cello, and different from that of viola da gamba? And all the viol-like features of the double bass (i.e. sloping shoulders, tuning in 4ths, etc.)-- are they merely modifications to make the instrument more convenient for playing? (i know the German bow system is not)
P.S. All your bass are belong to us!!!!
['frαs.ti] 20:45, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I am not familiar with the internal structure of the viol da gamba, but the internal components of a bass are almost exactly the same as the other members of the violin family. Of course there are differences in structure and support that allow for the increased size, but they share many basic pieces. One difference is the back; a lot of basses are flat-back, as opposed to being swell or round back like all violins. But this is due to the size, and there are also a lot of round-back basses as well. The structure of the bass is still changing, luthiers are always experimenting with new designs. — ßottesiηi ^(talk) 21:18, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Usage

Why is the "usage" change not discussed here? "Use" is better than "usage." Badagnani 23:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Well then change it. It is not discussed because I wrote "per peer review" in the edit summary. I guess I figured that you'd look in the peer review and see that it says not to reuse the article name in the section titles. (If for some reason that seems like it should have read in an angry tone, re-read it in a happy voice, because I'm not trying to be angry or anything). — ßottesiηi ^(talk) 23:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Why not use a smiley face? :-) or 8-) to indicate emotions--Light current 23:04, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Because "smiley faces" are smarmy. The English language in the hands of a competent writer did not require pictograms in the many centuries before the Internet went commercial, and it does not require them now.

[edit] Diagram

I created this diagram from a picture of my own bass. Anybody think it should go in the article somewhere? The image to the right is not full-size, obviously. Just click on it. — ßottesiηi ^(talk) 22:33, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I like your diagram Bott. However, I would make a suggestion that maybe you could label the upper and lower 'bouts'? THen I think it would be an asset to the article (as any good diagram is) 8-)--Light current 23:02, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

How does the new version look? — ßottesiηi ^(talk) 17:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jazz Bass pic

Hi, I am the one who put the Jazzbass.jpg picture on the jazz section a few weeks back. It's a picture of my friend Rudy, a jazz bass player from Indonesia, well he's not really renowned internationally but quite renowned in Indonesia. I took that pic during a practice session in his studio in Bandung, Indonesia. Anyways, I think the pic is good to be put in the jazz section because it shows a playing technique that is distinctively jazz. Current porter picture, albeit historical, does not show he's playing a bass. So I would like to propose to also insert my picture in addition to the current jazz picture. My picture is not copyrighted anyway, and i think it explains the technique better. Thanks! Meutia Chaerani 10:12, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I thought this about your photo as well; it shows a jazz bass player "in action," doing an upper register pizz. solo. Badagnani 10:25, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Chaerani, Could you tell the reason for his strangely coloured bass?--Light current 15:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

He sandpapered that part of the bass, i forgot why he did it. I don't play bass myself so i can't put any opinion about that either Meutia Chaerani 22:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Ahh! I see 8-?--Light current 22:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

How is the technique unique to jazz? And it's pretty obvious that Foster is a bass player considering that he's holding a bass. — ßottesiηi ^(talk) 15:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it's fair to say that a very high register pizz solo is more typical of jazz than classical (though I don't have time to do a statistical analysis of jazz and classical compositions) :) Badagnani 18:07, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

OK — ßottesiηi ^(talk) 18:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I reapply the jazzbass.jpg picture into the jazz section, as agreed under this discussion. Besides, per Wikimania conference, it is agreed that it is preferable to use open sourced photos (as in the jazzbass.jpg) instead of copyrighted fair-use photos (as in the Porter's photo). Meutia Chaerani 13:42, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Intonation

Is intonation more difficult on a double bass compared with other string instruments because of its size? It seems to me intonation as such, ie producing a note to the required pitch, is not really related to the size of the instrument, otherwise one could argue that a cello is easier to play in tune compared with a double bass because it is smaller, and a violin even easier. Yes, the positions for the fingers are further apart, so to play the same range of notes as a violin one needs to stretch their fingers and move their hand over wider distances but that is that is not intonation. LDHan 04:39, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

It's my experience--primarily because in faster passages the entire hand (and arm) must jump up and down the neck, often way up the G string. With the violin passages can be played with much less movement of the hand and thus the intonation is easier. Part of it is probably the thickness of the bass strings as well. Let's see what some of the other bass players here have to say. Badagnani 04:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

One could also say that intonation is easier on a double bass because the wider distances give a greater margin of error. LDHan 05:04, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

That's a good point, but one that is belied by the severely out of tune bass player we've all heard (and whose sound unfortunately lingers in our minds)!  :) Badagnani 05:09, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm lost. Are you talking about a particular bass player? Gnome 05:28, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, isn't perception of pitch less accurate at low pitches? LDHan 05:38, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with LDH, perception of pitch is less certain at low frequencies. On the DB, although the distances are greater along the strings, most bass players do not purposely jump up and down the neck, they use all 4 strings! Intonation can be a problem very high on the neck, becasue the notes are so close together. But on a violn, they are even closer! I think Badagnani has just been listening to a rather unaccomplished player!--Light current 11:17, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Range picture

The PNG file that shows the range of the double bass needs to be corrected. Double bass music is written an octave higher than it actually sounds, which causes the pitches of the four open strings in the diagram to be an octave higher than they actually are. The user that uploaded that PNG needs to add an 8va below the open strings for the diagram to be accurate.--Markjdb 15:25, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, playing range is wrong. Whats shown is the written range. Can someone fix this? I cant! 8-(--Light current 21:42, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

The article on the Hungarian Wikipedia has a correct one. -- FrostytheSnowman ^('sup?) 00:28, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Changed image. The previous one was [[Image:Written range double bass.png]]. I changed the image to [[Image:Range contrabass.png]], which has a 8vb below the open strings notes. -- FrostytheSnowman ^('sup?) 01:48, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing! 8-)--Light current 01:52, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Playing hazards and the funky chicken

Since playing my EUB regularly now for about 9 months, I have developed a sore neck on the left side when I rotate my head to the left. i went to the doctor and he said it was due to the action of the left arm in playing the bass. He recommended an excersise with the arms thet make it look like Im doing the funky chicken dance. Anyone else had any similar problems?--Light current 11:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Can't say that I have. If you are developing soreness, there is probably something wrong with your technique or you're holding too much tension or something another. There are whole classes you can take about the body's mechanics while playing and how to play more efficiently and correctly. - ßottesiηi ^(talk) 18:42, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Well I cant see that Im doing anything specifically wrong. What are these classes of which you speak ?--Light current 00:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

You may want to check this out: [1] It was in the latest edition of the ISB magazine. -- ßottesiηi ^(talk) 02:12, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I went to the doctor the other day, he couldn't stop laughing. I asked why this was, he said "You see that guy that just went out? He'll be doing the funky chicken for hours" Gnome 03:17, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Hahaha -- ßottesiηi ^(talk) 14:35, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Ha ha very funky!. It works though! Try it and see!--Light current 05:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I think this may be the key:

Muscle-Specific Bass Playing When you play the bass, be careful to use only the muscles necessary to perform the specific tasks involved. As the body tires, the tendency is to overuse these muscles and to involve muscles that aren't necessary for playing. By building muscle-specific awareness, you can conserve energy, reduce the risk for injury, and allow your body to be more physically fit to play the bass.

from international bassist --Light current 07:07, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pegbox

Article says that DB s have always used M/C heads. Im sure I read somewhere that old DBs had pegs just like other members of violin family. Any comments?--Light current 01:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Strings section citation not actually needed

It says that a citation is needed for the line below, but in reality this is common knowledge among bassists and will be found in most any source.

Historically, strings were made of gut, but since the 20th century steel has largely replaced gut due to its better playability.

[edit] GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 03:08, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Well then it's time to get to work. -- ßottesiηi ^(talk) 23:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I've added a few, hopefully someone will keep up the work (I will be back after some rest). -- ßottesiηi ^(talk) 00:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Citation #3 actually contradicts the statement to which it is appended. The statement says that the double bass is a viol, while the cited article describes it as a member of the violin family. (In point of fact, it's not exactly either, but is more commonly considered a viol because of its shape and tuning).

[edit] bow section pics

Sometime in my absence from wikipedia, all the images from the bow section disappeared. Anybody know what happened to them? -- ßottesiηi ^(talk) 02:07, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plagiarism/Copyright Issues?

Some of this page (esp. the Origins and History section) appears to be copied from this web page: [2] which carries a copyright notice. I suppose it's possible that they copied it from here. Anyone know for sure? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.204.170.66 (talk • contribs).

That actually appears to be copied from wikipedia, as I have seen that prose actually developed and written here over time. It's not a copyright infringement for them to use it (all wikipedia articles are licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License), although I am curious as to their claimed copyright. -- ßottesiηi ^(talk) 21:44, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's fair that they're claiming copyright over something that was collaboratively written here. What can we do about it? Badagnani 22:02, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, you can email the email address that I found for them (info@ibay-hk.com) if you want. -- ßottesiηi ^(talk) 22:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

They have also used the photo of my Double Bass, which I put up as GFDL. I will e-mail them. Andrew Kepert 03:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Why, those f*ers! Badagnani 03:35, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

See Talk:Double_bass/Copyright_notice for my e-mail. 8-) Andrew Kepert 04:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

No news yet -- see User_talk:Bottesini#Bass_page_copyvio. However, I will draw from Wikipedia:Standard GFDL violation letter next time, and one of you might like to use one of these letters as the next step -- it gives them a softer option to fix the problem, if they are prepared to wear a "GFDL" and foreign copyright notice on their site. Andrew Kepert 09:32, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Further update: I found WP:MIRROR has a place to put lodge GFDL violations. Andrew Kepert 09:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Last one for today: http://musical-instrument.koopal.com/ and related sites are also ripped from WP. I put a suggestion on Talk:Musical instrument for a contributor to follow it up. Andrew Kepert 10:25, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fernando Grillo

Is that serious placing Fernando Grillo before Gary Karr and Edgar Meyer? Is he a more prominent player, with more experience and notability than those two? Badagnani 08:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

No, he is not. -- ßottesiηi ^(talk) 21:37, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Why, then, does he not only add himself in most paragraphs but he adds himself as the first name? And there is no Wikipedia article for him other than his user page. Badagnani 22:24, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Ummm... vanity? -- ßottesiηi ^(talk) 22:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Wow! He just added himself again, before Turetzky and Karr. Those players are senior in their field, with many decades of work, but I really don't think Grillo should be placed first in this list. Badagnani 01:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

He just put himself as the first name in all those sections. I don't think that's appropriate. Badagnani 22:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Neither do I. I'll drop him a line as well. -- ßottesiηi ^(talk) 23:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Length of instrument

Do we not have the length of the instrument (in inches/centimeters) listed? Badagnani 08:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

It can vary quite a good bit. -- ßottesiηi ^(talk) 16:40, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, then, we'd better at least have a "mean" for basses used for orchestral playing. As a bassist, I suppose you have access to this information? Badagnani 19:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I guess most 3/4's (standard size) are probably close to 72" (from scroll to end of body, not including endpin). I play a 7/8 (it's documentation says it's a 3/4, but it takes a 7/8 case) so you can see that even opinions at to what constitutes the different sizes varies. -- ßottesiηi ^(talk) 20:07, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

From what I've read, bass sizes are bassed (sorry) on the scale length - nut to bridge. A table I found a while back on Gollihur music's site had that a full sized bass is 43.4" (110cm) and a 3/4 is 41.3" (105cm). After finding this I measured my bass (you know ... the famous one pictured at the top of the page!) and it came in slightly over the 105cm - I can't remember exactly. I always thought was full-size, but something I read somewhere claimed that true full-sized basses were not common.

Actually, after having written that, I googled and found the page http://www.urbbob.com/FAQ-size.html which is where I got both pieces of information. Andrew Kepert 09:01, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] another diagram change

The picture for the tuning of the bass needs to be changed to reflect its actual pitches, which would mean that the notes need to be lowered by an octave. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Markjdb (talk • contribs) 23:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

Yeah I forked that off the french wikipedia a while ago. I'll make one myself. -- ßottesiηi ^(talk) 00:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Done. -- ßottesiηi ^(talk) 01:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] zubin mehta??

Does he really belong alongside bassists like Bottesini and Simandl? Mehta is FAR better known as a conductor; the only time I've ever seen/heard him play bass was in a video of the trout quintet on youtube. His article doesn't even mention the fact that he's a double bassist...I would think that any addition to the list should be based on their contributions to the bass, instead of music in general (ie conducting). Markjdb 21:42, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I guess it's moot now... Markjdb 00:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Violin Family

The Bass is in no way related to the violin family and, as such, I am removing that information from the page. Kntrabssi 22:43, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Why are you posting this all the way at the top? The article itself states that the double bass has many similarities in construction with the violin family, so you're wrong about that ("in no way related"). It's also a member of the orchestral string family, of which the violin, viola and cello are part. In fact, the cello is not proportionally the same as the violin either. So you're off base and a bit reactionary, not even following the text of our own article in this regard. Badagnani 22:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I've returned this; as the article says, modern scholars have varying positions on the issue, but there is at least one body of opinion, led by Paul Brun's book which we mention in the article, suggesting that the double bass is descended more from the violin than the viol; while borrowing some viol-like features (fourths-tuning, flat back in some cases) for practicality. Some of the very earliest instruments considered double basses are made in the violin form, with pointed corners, rather than the gamba form with square corners. While both bodies of opinion exist, I see no harm in listing both descents. I'm not sure that any scholar would say that the modern double bass has no relationship to the violin family - even if you believe its descent is purely from the viol, at the very least it has been modified (for example, in removal of the frets) to more closely resemble the violin. TSP 00:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Terminology

Okay, this is a really dumb reason to add another section to the discussion, but I swear I've heard the Double Bass referred to as a Floor Bass, along with the other names listed. Is this a real term? Albino Bebop 02:28, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Are you thinking of a ground bass? Markjdb 23:25, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Size

In order to trim the size down a bit, should we just list repetoire, instead of giving a small description about quintets, concertos and such? Kntrabssi 09:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Five strings

Don't many German orchestras use a five-string double bass? This seems as if it might be important enough to be mentioned in the main article. Grover cleveland 16:09, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The traditional string arrangement is 4 strings. The sentence Some bassists use a fifth string tuned to B one half step below middle C. mentions the fifth string. Kntrabssi 18:21, 5 April 2007 (UTC)