Talk:Don Quixote

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Archives /Archive 1

Contents 1 Cleanup Underway 2 Significant changes and reflow/rewrite executed Jan 28-29 2007 3 Article layout and extraneous matter 4 Translation of opening sentence 5 Sources section needs work 6 Section order and format 7 What translation to use? 8 Translation of first sentence modified without correcting reference 9 Edith Grossman question

[edit] Cleanup Underway

I have started in on the cleanup.

1. I have added the plot summary section to be filled out.
2. I have created a single cultural influence heading and then subheadings
3. I have started to weed out some of the more dubious references. The fact that quixotic has entered the language does not mean that every band, singer or DJ who knows what the word means is making an explicit or noteworthy reference to the original Don.
4. Cleanup of language and removal of a cartoonish image.

I think it would be a very good idea to use the Daumier and Picasso illustrations for this article if we can find them under GFDL. Waddya think Yannis? Eusebeus 19:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Significant changes and reflow/rewrite executed Jan 28-29 2007

I have made significant changes to the flow and contents of the article.

• Added subheads; ordered list
• Linguistic disambiguations, clarifications, and definitions
• Rearrangement and editing of much of the text.

Please review and compare to previous changes for glaring wikisyntax.

PlasticDoor 19:14, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article layout and extraneous matter

1. It has been noted that the article does not follow the encyclopedic wikipedia conventions for Novels entries. I agree. In my initial attempts at cleanup, I focused only on clarification of the existing entry (grammar, logical ordering, etc.) Much of the lead-in was subheaded under "Overview"; that, it is agreed, should be in the Lead-in. Plot summaries need further development. The history also needs more development. There is a substantial amount of information on the Spanish WIkipedia location, albiet it is deemed by some commenters there to be too overburdened and dense.

2. There is too much extraneous matter in the form of lists which are better purposed as redirects to their own articles. These lists interrupt the flow and readability of the main article. Subentries such as that about Foucault is not relevant to this main article. The article on Foucault should instead be referencing the Quixote article.

3. I also propose that a redirect page be created under the heading "Quijote" because that is the Spanish conventional spelling present-day. This would be to assist/provide cross-reference to non-English speakers who do not use the "ex" form of the spelling. (NB-could arguably be trivial.)

--PlasticDoor 16:15, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Translation of opening sentence

This article contains a rather poor translation of the opening line in Don Quijote.

"In some place in La Mancha, whose name I do not want to recall, it was not so long ago there dwelt a gentleman of the type wont to keep an unused lance, an old shield, a skinny old horse, and a greyhound for racing."

In English translations I remember it being translated as "In a village of La Mancha, the name of which I do not wish to recall, there lived not long ago a gentleman (more specifically a nobleman) of those who keep a lance in the rack, an aged shield, a broken-down horse/hack and a greyhound for racing" Angryafghan 20:00, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources section needs work

I agree that the Tirant is a source for the Quijote, but is only one of many other listed, and is somewhat of an anomaly in relation to other chivalric romances due to its realism. I'd be happy to help expand the "sources" section since it needs some serious work. Bewtros 03:32, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Section order and format

I moved the "see also" section to its normal position at the end of the article text but prior to references, simplified a few titles, and removed the non-standard level one titles. No other editorial material was added or removed with this edit. It would be nice to have the bibliographic section at the end (following references) with current English editions included. It looks like most of the ones listed in the commented out bib. are Spanish editions. Also, the whole cultural legacy area makes the article large enough (currently 51k) to consider making it a separate subarticle. --Blainster 20:18, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What translation to use?

I had changed something using the Raffel translation, which was changed because "the first one [translation of the first sentence] sounded better" (see history). However, whoever changed this should change the entire sentence to the translation they are using and ALSO change the reference, since I was quoting from the published translation and we can't change this at will. I'm not familiar with the Grossman translation, which may be our best bet, but the Shelton one is a bit old-fashioned, if still helpful in places. Bewtros 21:04, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, so I just looked at the Grossman translation and there is a gross error in the translation of the first sentence, as it reads "Somewhere in La Mancha, in a place whose name I do not care to remember, a gentleman lived not long ago, one of those who has a lance and ancient shield on a shelf and keeps a skinny nag and a greyhound for racing." A "lugar" is not the generic "place" but rather a population of specific size--something like "town" or would be more correct since the RAE states a lugar is "menor que villa y mayorf que aldea".

So, I'm proposing we use either the Raffel or some other more correct translation throughout the article for the sake of continuity. Bewtros 21:15, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

There are many ways to translate lugar. Place is one of them. Please wait for consensus before imposing edits upon cited sources. Ronbo76 21:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

This is true. However, almost every Spanish edition of the text notes that lugar is not used in the general sense of "place" but rather the following taken from the authoritative edition by Francisco Rico: lugar: no con el valor de ‘sitio o paraje’, sino como ‘localidad’ y en especial ‘pequeña entidad de población’, en nuestro caso situada concretamente en el Campo de Montiel (I, 2, 47, y 7,93), a caballo de las actuales provincias de Ciudad Real y Albacete. Seguramente por azar, la frase coincide con el verso de un romance nuevo. I will wait for others to confirm this reading before making changes, but anyone who has a knowledge of early modern Spanish and has read an annotated Spanish original would agree. Bewtros 22:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Translation of first sentence modified without correcting reference

I'm writing since what we have quoted as Raffel's translation of the first sentence is incorrect. Raffel's translation reads "In a village in La Mancha (I don't want to bother you with its name) there lived, not very long ago, one of those gentlemen who keep a lance in the lance-rack, an ancient shield, a skinny old horse, and a fast greyhound" (p.13) and not "In a village in La Mancha (whose name I do not care to recall) there lived, not very long ago, one of those gentlemen who keep a lance in the lance-rack, an ancient shield, a skinny old horse, and a fast greyhound." I can see the previous user's logic in changing the translation, but if we agree that that's the best way to put it (another option would be to change the preceding paragraph) we should acknowledge that the translation we have is a modified version of Raffel's translation and not his translation as it appears in published form. Bewtros 22:58, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Concur amigo. Please make the change. Morenooso 01:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edith Grossman question

Hello, in the section about "Editions in translation", the text talks about other authors whose work Grossman has translated. Is that really necessary, because the article is about Don Quixote, and I'm sure that the other people have translated other works too. --Kyoko 03:14, 3 April 2007 (UTC)