Talk:Don Budge

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[edit] Nazi flag for von Cramm

The Nazi flag, someone set behind Gottfried von Cramm is an insult. Von Cramm was a known opponent of the Nazi regime, and was actually imprisoned by the Gestapo in 1938 for dubious reasons. The Nazis prevented him from winning Wimbledon in 1939, after he had beaten the eventual winner Riggs 6-2,6-1 at Queens. Later he was purposely sent into the line of fire on the Russian front. He got the Iron Cross there. In the last years of WW II he fled to his friend, the King of Sweden. After the war, von Cramm was the first German, who was gained entrance at an international sporting event, at Wimbledon in 1948.Please remove that sign (german friend 3.1.2007). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.60.180.188 (talk) 16:39, 3 February 2007 (UTC).

It may be an insult, but that is the Wikipedia tradition that apparently has evolved for this sort of editorial entry: the flag for the individual in question is that used by the country he/she played for at the time. Other people have objected to the use of the Franco-Spain flag, the Nazi flag, and the Soviet communist flag, among others. But all of them have either been retained or restored in the other articles, so it will undoubtedly be the case here also. Hayford Peirce 18:46, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I haven't noticed the German flag till today. Perhaps to follow the neutrality concept of Wikipedia one has to use the flag of the time but I recognize it's disturbing to watch it. von Cramm was arrested by the Gestapo because he was a true opponent of the Nazi regim. He was prevented from playing any tennis event from spring 1938 through spring 1939 and in particular he couldn't enter neither the Davis Cup in 1938 and 1939 nor the Slam tournaments those same years (except the Australian in 1938). Though von Cramm was Roland Garros titlist he couldn't enter the 1937 singles but was obliged to play the doubles with Henner Henkel, the future singles winner. One thing I would be enclined to do would be to suppress the "Von Cramm bowing to Hitler" photo in the von Cramm article. What's the interest of such a photo which sort of denigrates the German player ? Who wouldn't have bowed to Hitler in those circumstances apart from some extraterrestrial heroes ?

PS: though von Cramm's career was stopped by the Nazis and the war the German was still able to defeat Drobny in 1949 or 1950. Carlo Colussi 15:33, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

This is certainly one of those issues on which there will probably never be a consensus opinion. If you look at the list of Wimbledon winners, you will see the Nazi flag. In the French and U.S. Opens you seen the present German flag used for Von Cramm. So it appears to be a coin flip, as the issue can be argued either way. As for the photo of Von Cramm and Hitler I think it should remain for historic interest, for the very reason you're against it -- here's the great tennis hero bowing to this awful man, showing just what Germany had come to during those terrible days. It's not to degrade Von Cramm.... Hayford Peirce 17:45, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

• • • • Perhaps Carlo Colussi 08:35, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it is bitter in particular for a man like von Cramm, to be linked that way with Hitler and the Nazi flag, because of all sportsmen in the Third Reich he didn't derserve it. His imprisonement was due to an affair with a Jewish actor, whom he helped to get out of Germany.By the way, Roderich Menzel, who gets a Czechoslovakian flag, was a German-Czech, and after Hitlers taking over of Böhmen in 1938, he became a German Davis Cup player. Formally, he played for the same flag then (german friend 6. Jan.).