Talk:Dominion
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[edit] Newfoundland - when a Dominion? 1855? 1907? 1931?
wasn't Newfoundland a Dominion? When did it become one?
A very good question: Newfoundland enjoyed near-complete internal self-government from 1855 until the creation of an appointed Commission of Government in 1934. The declaration of the 1926 Imperial Conference stated that "The Governor of Newfoundland is in the same position as the Governor-General of a Dominion", indicating clearly that Newwdoundland was not then considered technically a Dominion, though enjoying many of the same rights in practice. Newfoundland was, however, defined as a Dominion by the Statute of Westminster (11 December 1931), so Dominion status lasted in theory for 26 months.
However, the Statute did not itself constitute a change in the territory's de facto constitutional status, and Newfoundland never wielded the same kind of diplomatic independence as Canada or Australia came to enjoy. I think the territory's real status is in some doubt, and have therefore not included it among the Dominions proper, i.e. those former British dependencies which possessed full effective sovereignty within the Empire. - David Parker
For what it is worth, when the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council was determining the Labrador boundary between Canada and Newfoundland in 1926-27, the reference reads "In the matter of the boundary between the Dominion of Canada and the colony of Newfoundland in the Labrador Peninsula, between the Dominion of Canada of the one part and the colony of Newfoundland of the other part. Forts and trading posts in Labrador Peninsula and adjoining territory". I have bolded the word colony. Library and Archives Canada lists several publications arising from this case 1926-27. This seems to suggest that as far as the legal authorities were concerned (and none are higher than the Privy Council) Newfoundland was a colony in 1926-27. --BrentS 02:54, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- A good source; so it seems Newfoundland remained a self-governing colony until 1931.Grant65 (Talk) 06:34, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC)
The suggestion that Newfoundland was the first "Dominion" in 1855 is misleading. There is no proof for this. I suspect that what Newfoundland achieved in 1855 was responsible government, a form of self-government where the premier/prime minister directs the executive rather than the appointed governor. So far as I can tell, the word "dominion" made its first modern appearance in 1867 in the British North America Act. So I think the chronology should make this clearer. Do Australia and New Zealand's constitutional acts use the word "dominion"? Or is dominion more a "type" of colonial government.--BrentS 15:50, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- On the question of self-govt and responsible govt, I wrote the par on the introduction of these to the colonies, and I checked the dates thoroughly, but an error or two may have crept in.
- It comes back to the question of what a dominion is; there is clearly usage of "dominion" before 1867 and whereas the D. of New England was clearly not a "capital-D Dominion", in the later sense, whereas there seem to be a number of sources that refer to Newfoundland as being a "dominion" in 1855(?)
- Compared to Canada,[1] "dominion" is rarely used within the Commonwealth of Australia, except by scholars.[2] The only exception I can think of in popular culture is the Interdominion event in harness racing, so called because it also involves horses from the country that used to be called the Dominion of New Zealand....where the word is still quite common it seems.[3] Grant65 (Talk) 17:22, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)
Newfoundland was granted responsible government in 1855, but did not gain Dominion status until 1907. In 1933, Newfoundland reverted to colonial status due to bankruptcy. As a result, the Parliament of Newfoundland was abolished & a 6-man Commission of Government was instituted under the chairmanship of the Governor. 3 of the 6 members of the Commission of Government were Newfoundlanders, & the other 3 members were British Government appointees. This lasted until 1949, when the result of the 1948 referendum was put into effect. A majority had voted in favour of union with Canada. It is interesting to note that the Viceregal representative under the Dominion retained the title 'Governor of Newfoundland'. There was never a Governor-General of Newfoundland. - (Aidan Work 02:10, 20 November 2005 (UTC))
[edit] Canadian provinces before 1867
The article on dominions notes the Australian states, NZ, and Newfoundland all had internal self-government before Canada became the first dominion in 1867. True. But the Canadian provinces which joined in 1867 and the later additions also had internal self-government. Quebec and Ontario (Lower and Upper Canada respectively), Nova Scotia, PEI, and New Brunswick all had parliaments prior to 1867. As the article notes, Newfoundland also had a parliament before 1867. I'm not sure about the Prairie provinces or British Columbia.
- Upper and Lower Canada united in 1841 and had a single legislature from 1841 to 1867. B.C. had a royal governor but no legislature until 1871, when it joined Confederation. Rupert's Land and the North-Western Territory had no organized government other than the Aboriginal governments and the Hudson's Bay Company.--Indefatigable 16:25, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Responsible government came to Canada in 1848 under Lord Elgin. See the article on him and the Province of Canada. Responsible government basically means self-government in internal matters without interference from the governor or governor-general. Foreign and military affairs remain with the imperial government.--BrentS 02:45, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Self-government
I have altered the text to make it more relevant to Dominions other than Canada. I have also introduced the concept of a self-governing colony, which is a term widely used in Australia and New Zealand at least, to refer to the intermediate historical stage between Crown Colony and Dominion status (a hiatus which lasted 57 years in NZ and 46 years in most of the Australian cases). A new page, "self-governing colony" also needs to be written. Possibly the stuff about New Zealand, the Cape Colony, etc getting self-government needs to be moved there from the Dominion page? (Grant; March 3, 2004.)
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- Have you seen the page on Crown colonies? To my mind any material either belongs there or here. Andrew Yong 19:10, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Andrew, I did see it, but as I said, and at least for Australasian readers, there was a long, separate stage of constitutional development, i.e. self-governing colony, between Crown Colony and Dominion. I think this needs to be pointed out more strongly in the Dominion text, given Australia and New Zealand's prominence among the Dominions. Crown Colony, to me, as a long-time student of British Empire history, implies direct rule from London, whereas self-governing colonies tended to be independent states in everything except name. (And from my reading of the pages on Canadian history, it seems to have been the case there also, in the provinces formed before 1867, although I will gladly defer to the experts ). (Grant; 11pm UTC+8, March 3, 2004.)
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- Perhaps, but where do you draw the line between self-governing colony and a pre-1931 dominion? 1867 seems to me an arbitrary line, since the Dominion of Canada was constitutionally not all that different from the self-governing Australasian colonies. But if you have enough content to create a new page on self-governing colonies without too much duplication of content on the crown colonies and dominion pages, do as you see fit. This to me is the main issue. Andrew Yong 23:26, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Newfoundland: PM or premier?
There are at least as many web sources referring to Philip Francis Little as Newfoundland's "Prime Minister", as there are calling him "Premier". Even the Canadian Parliament refers to these early first ministers as Prime Ministers.[4] The two terms, etymologically, are identical and "Premier" is often used instead of PM (as in the "Chinese premier"), depending on conventional practice. These days it is really only in the federal systems of Canada and Australia that the two are distinct offices. However, I think we need some adjudication on this, as it is important in assessing whether or not Newfoundland was a dominion in 1855.Grant65 (Talk) 15:54, Mar 18, 2004 (UTC)
- There is no practical difference between a "premier" and a "prime minister" in the Westminster system. Premier was widely used in 19th century Canada to refer to Macdonald, Mackenzie, Thompson, Laurier. The Newfoundland Heritage site says the term prime minister of Newfoundland came into use after 1901. It is not anything to get exercised about. Premier was likely used more commonly before 1901 just as it was in Canada in newspaper reports.--BrentS 02:41, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
SHIT
[edit] Rewrite Feb 10, 2005 Reasons
After some research I have rewritten this historical section. First Newfoundland was not a dominion in 1855. What Newfoundland achieved in 1855 was "responsible government" (source Encyclopedia of Newfoundland and Labrador volume 2 (1984) Government article). It makes no difference if Little was called "premier" or "prime minister"; either title is appropriate in the Westminster system and is really a matter of local practice. Page 628 of this encyclopedia has an extensive discussion of Newfoundland's "dominion" status and I have quoted from it re the Nfld legislature never approving sections 2-6 of the Statute of Westminster (1931). Also Newfoundland never joined the League of Nations, and permitted the UK to conduct its external affairs, although it insisted upon consultation especially on anything to do with the fishery. In 1939 Newfoundland did not make any separate declaration of war as did Canada and in 1945 it did not apply for separate membership in the United Nations. All these reasons are given on p. 628 of the Encyclopedia, a collective work by many scholars. Nfld became a dominion in 1931 where it is mentioned in the preamble of the Statute of Westminster, but it chose not to exercise all of the functions allowed to a dominion. Prior to that it was a self-governing colony, and the Encyclopedia even has a section in the Government article with this heading "Self-Government 1855-1934". As for responsible government, Nova Scotia is the first colony to achieve this status, not the Province of Canada. The Encyclopedia Britannica says "Parliamentary government in British Columbia dates from the inauguration of the first legislature of the Colony of Vancouver Island, Aug. 12, 1856, but responsible government was not achieved until confederation." This makes sense as merely to have an elected legislature is not a sufficient test of "responsible government". To have "responsible government" the executive power must be answerable to the legislature and the people, i.e. the Crown's power must be exercized by and with the consent of the legislature, hence the term "Governor-in-Council". I was doubtful of the phrase "dominion status" as there is no statute laying out such a term until much later than 1867. All "dominion" meant in 1867 was an avoidance of "kingdom" or "colony", but as many have argued that did not mean that Canada was not a colony, just a different kind of colony. Finally, unless someone can come up with documentary proof of some British colony possessing the name "dominion" between the 18th century and 1867, the Dominion of Canada seems to be the first modern use of the term. Maybe some astute individual in the Colonial Office remembered the term and resurrected it in 1867 for Canada, just as today someone in the British goverment has resurrected Prince Albert's title as Prince Consort of Queen Victoria for Camilla Parker-Bowles, said to be styled Princess Consort. Hope this helps.--BrentS 02:48, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Dominion of Canada
On July 5, 2005, User:64.231.245.210 added these words:
- The government's usage of Dominion when referring to the country is rare, but officials from the Ministry of Canadian Heritage have confirmed in recent times that the official name of the country is indeed still the Dominion of Canada. The Constitution Act, 1982 changed nothing in this wording.
Can anyone provide any evidence to support this claim? If it is true, then changes must be made to Canada and Canada's name to reflect this. If not, then it should be deleted from this article. Ground Zero 21:11, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
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- I agree: if the editor who added this cannot support it, the passage should be deleted. The two main arguments are (1) the official name has always been "Dominion of Canada" and has not been changed (2) the official name has never been "Dominion of Canada". The third argument (the name used to be officially "Dominion of Canada" but not anymore) does not hold water, because no one can point to an official document that changed the name. Unfortunately, this "officially changed theory" is what you have implied by your recent edit to Politics of Canada. Indefatigable 21:57, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
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- No, I don't think so. Canada used to be styled as the "Dominion of Canada" in official documents (banknotes, for example, and there are Royal Proclamations that have used it) so referring to that as the "former official style" is correct. The "style" is not the name. There may be a better way of getting that idea across, however, so please feel free to change what I've written. Regards, Ground Zero 21:28, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
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I've made this deletion. It should be restored if evidence to support it is provided. Ground Zero 19:23, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] "Style and Title" means long form name
This is a very old arguement. I support the position that the long form name of the country formed on July 1, 1867, was and is today the Dominion of Canada. Unfortunately, Wikipedia is ruled by consensus. The overwhelming majority (i.e., the consensus) of people here hold the view that the only name of the country founded on July 1, 1867, is simply just Canada. I support the position that this "constitutional literalist" interpretation of letter of the constitution in fact violates the spirit of constitution that the Fathers of Confederation intended (i.e., the Fathers of Confederation intent was to designate that the long form name of the country as the Dominion of Canada).
If one carefully inspects all of the relavent amendments to the British North America Act for the first 50 years of this country's existance (i.e., 1867-1917) one will note the explicit inclusion of the long form full name of the Dominion of Canada (and correspondingly use of Canada as a short form name) in every salient document.
The term Style and Title (or just Style, or Title alone) does in fact mean "the long form name". This is borne out when one studies the rules of the Order of Precedence (literally meaning "who proceeds first").
70.30.193.143 22:15, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. I think the Wikipedia article Canada's Name#Use of Canada and Dominion of Canada has it right: the only legal name of the country is "Canada", but the official title is "Dominion of Canada". This is consistent with the terminology used on the Canadian Heritage website: [6]. If you look at modern international treaties to which Canada is a party, it's never referred to as the "Dominion of Canada". For example: [7]. There, Germany is referred to by it's long-form name, "the Federal Republic of Germany", while Canada is referred to as just "Canada". --Mathew5000 01:03, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Virginia - Old Dominion
shouldn't Virginia be on here? it was declared a dominion by Charles II, long before the page says the term came into usage in relation with Canada.
