Talk:Domestic rabbit

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Contents 1 Bunny 2 Merge suggestion with European Rabbit 3 House rabbit? 4 Text removed September 3, 2005 5 Lifespan 6 Sigh... I miss my Bun Bun 7 Help!? 8 'Training and Play' section 9 POV advice 10 Editing help 11 Rabbit Sex 12 References trouble 13 Major reductions

[edit] Bunny

According to my husband, a word geek, "bunny" used to mean any small cute fuzzy creature, not just rabbits but cats, dogs, etc. Obviously "bunny" now means specifically "rabbit". However, this article says "*technically* 'bunny' means only baby rabbits" (or something to that effect). Should we remove the reference?

[edit] Merge suggestion with European Rabbit

I would be tempted to say "no" to the merge, not because it would not be accurate (they are, after all, the same species), but because people searching for information on domestic rabbits as pets or farm animals would benefit from an isolated article on that topic. Placing all information pertaining to domestic rabbits into European Rabbit would be bewildering and counterintuitive to people who don't understand that the domestic rabbit and European rabbit are the same species. Searching would be made more difficult for these users. As an alternative to merging this article into European Rabbit, I'd suggest slimming down the section on domestication in that article and merging the information into Domestic rabbit where appropriate. -- Krishva 03:58, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

That would be fine. - UtherSRG (talk) 10:59, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

Actually, what I would like to see is clear seperation between (a) the rabbit as a wild species (b) the rabbit as a house pet, with the kind of focus that rabbit.org has (c) the rabbit as livestock. Right now everything seems to be mashed in together, which can be disturbing (eg the whole meat rabbit thing is going to be pretty upsetting to some kid who has a New Zealand running around their house).

Obviously if you are going to eat the rabbit you are not going to want to read about caring for a geriatric special needs rabbit and vice versa.

There could be a disambiguation page to explain all that.

Frossie 02:58, 2005 August 12 (UTC)

Maybe have this page be primarily for rabbits as livestock with a short section on pets, while having a house rabbit article for in-depth information on pets? While I'm not sure it's necessary to "protect" kids from the truth of where meat comes from, I can see where pet rabbits might warrant their own article (there's so much information on pet care!). A lot of information would be overlapping, though, like health, and the pet, meat, and fur markets mesh so much with rabbits that I am not sure how a split would work. --Krishva 04:18, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I think a house rabbit page may be a good idea. One could have something at the top of the domestic rabbit page that says that this covers primarily commercial uses of rabbits as livestock, and if they are interested in pet information to go elsewhere.

I come from the house rabbit angle and I don't see huge amounts of overlap. For example house rabbit people routinely spay to avoid ovarian cancer, whereas anybody interested in breeding will have no interest in that. Training, bonding, caring for disabled rabbits, all that is only likely to be of major interest to pet people. Even diet is quite different - a breeding/meat rabbit is going to have different dietary needs than a neutered adult house rabbit, especially in the amount of protein in the diet.

And anyway, certainly the European Rabbit page is just too long and unfocussed and could do with a good prune. But it seems a bit rude to gut it out, not sure what they protocol for that is? I am new to contributing to wikipedia.

Frossie 19:52, 2005 August 12 (UTC)

I'd agree with moving all the domesticated rabbit details out of European Rabbit into Domestic rabbit - MPF 01:02, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] House rabbit?

I merged all the info regarding domestic rabbits from European rabbit into this article. The section on pets is very long, and I agree with User:Frossie (see above) that a separate page for pet or "house rabbits" is in order. It could hold all pet-related details, with a short summary section on pets left in Domestic rabbit directing people to House rabbit for more info. What does everybody else think? --Krishva 03:22, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

I have two concerns about the proposal:

1. House Rabbits is a name that I think many people that don't know about keeping rabbits as pets will not understand. Additionally not all pet rabbits ARE house rabbits (as many people keep them outside). My understanding of the term house rabbit has always been a description of rabbits that live inside.
2. Since nearly all the text here would be moved to the new article that article will be nearly as long, thereby minimizing (IMHO) the effect of the new article.

That said, I haven't been editing much on this article since the domestic rabbit information left the original Rabbit article some months back, so if I'm alone in my opinion here, so be it. --Ahc 15:43, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I can understand your points--the term does, to my understanding, only apply to indoor pets, and the "Rabbits as Pets" section is a very large part of the current Domestic rabbit article. I'm fine with leaving the article as-is or moving the information, whichever group consensus agrees to.

The main reason I like the idea of a separate article is because of the combination of quantity of pet-related information and its specialized nature. If your objection would be lowered by a different proposed title (such as Pet rabbits or Rabbits as pets), I'm sure that would be okay with anyone who is in favor of the split. --Krishva 06:50, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

Changing the proposed title certainly handles my first concern, either of the two suggestions works for me. But I'm still not clear that much would be gained by spliting the text out. I took a couple minutes to look over articles that should have similar sections (like dogs), and realized that several subsections of Rabbits as Pets really aren't just about pets (i.e. diet), or even domesticated rabbits (i.e. Caecal pellets). To me this suggests that before we pull these articles apart any more, someone (and I include myself here) should take some time to carefully edit the article as a whole to make sure that all the information is really oragnized how it should be. We don't want the pets section (or potiental new article) to become an adoption manual (there are other/better places for that including perhaps wikibooks). --Ahc 15:00, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I would suggest Pet rabbit to parallel the only other example I can find of such an article, Pet skunk. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 14:43, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

To me this re-enforces my reservations. If there is only 1 parallel article to look at, maybe that's an exception, not the rule. Since there are 1000's of types of pets, why only 1 article with a comparible name? --Ahc 15:00, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I am wondering what other people's thoughts are on splitting this article in the light of the edits I made recently. Did I go too far? Or do others agree that this reshape article in such a way that it should stay as it is? --Ahc 19:17, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

I think the article should be split to pet rabbit not house rabbit because not all pet rabbits are kept in the house but the care is the same. --βjweþþ (talk) 08:31, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Since no one has worked toward actually splitting this article in several months, I've removed the split template. If other feel that this is still something that needs to happen, it can always be replaced. --Ahc 19:31, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

There are enough differences between the care of indoor and outdoor pet rabbits that, IMHO, a stand-alone House rabbit article would be justified. It would contain info on topics like pens, bunny condos, and interactions with other pets. An outdoor rabbits page (not sure the appropriate title) would cover topics such as climate control, predators, and parasites. One of the major values of wikipedia is the "one-stop shopping" overview that it provides to someone thinking of getting into something. Hence a house rabbit article (which could reference a wikibook or a site like the House Rabbit Society for more in-depth information) would be very useful to someone considering adopting a house rabbit. Thoughts? --Ed Brey 22:52, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I feel the problem with an article like the one you describe is that it would become inherently biased. Once you start giving people advice about how to care for their pets, which I believe this article does too much of now, you are sharing an opinion about how to care for rabbits, that is beyond the scope of Wikipedia. If you limit yourself to only describing common means of care I believe you'll find both limited information to include, and even more limited references that meet Wikipedia's standards.

I've been meaning for several weeks to review some of the recent additions about house rabbit care, and likely cut them back heavily. I fully support someone creating a wikibook about caring for pet rabbits (house or otherwise) as that would have more room for complete discussion of options and debates, but I'm not sure I see the need, or energy, for a separate house rabbit article. --Ahc 20:19, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that an entire book for care of rabbits is a great idea, and this is has been done many times, only not online. The best one that I am familiar with is Rabbits for Dummies. More than 90% of its 294 pages are dedicated to rabbit care, with one chapter specifically addressing house rabbits. This leaves me with the impression that there is enough encyclopedic content for a House rabbit article and a Rabbit care article, with the latter covering aspects that are generic to care of all rabbits. One idea to get started is to take much of the recently snipped content and organize it into stubs for those pages. --Ed Brey 12:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I comparing the Dummies book to other rabbit info sources, I haven't found any significant controversy regarding how to care for house rabbits. It seems that the best practices are generally well agreed upon by experts; the variation in actual practice comes about mostly due to ignorance. This seems like a situation where wikipedia can be a big help. --Ed Brey 12:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Text removed September 3, 2005

Since I suggested above that someone should edit the article as a whole, I did. I've copied the large blocks of text that I removed from the article incase anyone things I went too far.

From Children's pets:

Rabbits are extremely demanding and many people still wrongly consider them to be a children's pet. On the whole, rabbits make poor pets for young children, who may be careless in picking up the rabbit or physically unable to provide it the support it requires when carried. They may also forget to care for the rabbit, if they are assigned this responsibility. As with any pet, parents ought to be prepared to take over care of any rabbit purchased for a child.

Older children who have experience with handling and caring for animals can make splendid rabbit owners and sometimes show their animals in 4-H shows and other exhibitions.

From Other rabbits:

Rabbits are extremely social animals, but unaltered rabbits almost always fight when paired with another rabbit of either sex. An unwanted breeding will result if the rabbits are of opposite sexes, but rabbits of the same sex may also attempt to mount one another sexually, which stresses the rabbit being mounted. Either situation can lead to fighting.

Previously, most people who kept rabbits caged each animal singly. However, it is becoming common to spay or neuter pet rabbits; if this is done, the chances of matching a spayed female with a neutered male are very high. However, fighting can result even from pairing altered rabbits, so it should be done with care. Still, rabbits should be kept at least in pairs, as severe behavioural problems (such as general aggression, biting or withdrawal) may arise if rabbits are kept single.

From Breeds (I thought this might belong somewhere, but I couldn't figure out where):

Nervous rabbits or those handled improperly, regardless of breed, may kick, scratch, or even bite. Gentle socializing when the animal is young will almost invariably give them gentler dispositions.

From Acquiring a Rabbit:

There are many unwanted homeless rabbits in shelters and rescues all over the world, so adoption is preferable over breeding for casual owners who would like to acquire more rabbits. Petfinder.com is a good source for finding adoptable pets, including rabbits.

From Housing:

One of the most economical ways to build a cage is to use NIC cubes.[1] These can be purchased at Target, Wal-Mart, other department stores, or online. Cages can also be built using a wire mesh and a plastic tray.

Enclosures are also important. If you have a yard, a secure enclosure is ideal for the more moderate or warmer months. Keep in mind that the enclosure should be built to not only keep the rabbit in, but also keep cats, dogs, and other predators out. Ample shade must also be provided. Some rabbit owners also construct indoor enclosures as well. These can be built from a variety of materials, but -- ultimately -- must be chew-proof.

From Diet:

If a rabbit's fur becomes dry or its health seems not quite up to par, its water can be supplemented with vitamin drops. Avoid vitamin drops that contain milk products. Unless under direction of a veterinarian, do not give dairy products to a rabbit, as it will upset the intestinal flora that they require in order to digest their food.

From Vegetables:

Vegetables are essential to the health of rabbits, though they should not be provided to rabbits until they are at least 6 months old, as they can cause diarrhea in young rabbits. At least two cups of three different vegetables per 6 lb (170 ml/kg) of body weight should be fed to the rabbit daily, ideally half in the morning around sunrise, and half in the evening around sunset, as this is when wild rabbits most frequently graze. Remove vegatables that have not been consumed within a half-hour, as they can develop unhealthy amounts of bacteria. A wide variety of vegetables will result in the healthiest rabbit; preferably a combination of dark green vegetables and a root vegetables. Stay away from beans or rhubarb, as they can cause the rabbit to become sick. Additionally, it is wise to select vegetables that are high in Vitamin A.

To ensure that the rabbit can tolerate a specific vegetable, add one vegetable at a time to its diet. If the rabbit starts to act lethargic, or exhibit diarrhea or loose stools, then discontinue use of the new vegetable immediately.

From Treats:

Papaya is an excellent fruit to use as an occasional treat for rabbits. Papaya contains an enzyme that helps eliminate hair balls. Look for dried papaya with no sugar added, and feed only a very small amount per day. Below are some other acceptable fruits:

Apple (no stem or seeds) Banana† Blackberry Blueberries Cantaloupe Grapes†	Honeydew Orange (including peel) Papaya Peach Pear Pineapple	Plums Raspberries Strawberries Tomato Watermelon
† = Use very sparingly, as rabbits will eat only these, and ignore their other food.

From Caecal pellets:

Caecal pellets are mostly-digested food that rabbits defecate and subsequently reingest; a process known as refection, a form of coprophagia. Usually a rabbit will eat the pellets straight from their anus, and as such, many people do not know of this aspect of a rabbit's diet. They are often referred to as "night pellets" or "night droppings," since the rabbits tend to eat them a few hours after their evening meal.

...

Occasionally, the rabbit may leave these pellets lying about their cage; while smelly, this behavior is harmless. If their caecal pellets are consistently wet and runny, this may indicate either too little fibre or too many starches in their diet. This probably means that they need to be fed additional hay.

From Training and Play:

In this case, a solid ramp must be provided to allow the rabbit easy access to its cage when it needs to relieve itself. Rabbits may accidentally defecate outside their bathroom areas, but rabbit feces are hard and odorless.

...

In such situations, careless family members who may accidentally step or sit on the rabbit and predators who may wish to harm the rabbit (such as dogs and cats) should be kept out of the room where it is playing. Even with close supervision by an adult, a false step by a careless person or a sudden whim of a carnivorous pet can lead to a tragedy for your pet rabbit. Very young children should never be left unsupervised with any pet, rabbits included.

--Ahc 02:54, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

I strongly suggest to re-include the section about the caecal pellets and refection. This is one of the things about house rabbits that most people don't know about, especially that searching Wikipedia for the term "refection" returns nothing.

--Usagi Hana 07:15, 17 Oct. 2005 (UTC)

I fixed the whole article, neutralizing it and actually putting some of the information back in. For instance, putting in the necessity of vegetables. They are actually essential to rabbits as pellet-only diets do result in shorter life-spans as well as many illnesses. I have articles to back this (it's also in a lot--A LOT--of books about rabbits and in the Rabbit Talk magazine which is edited by authorities in the field of rabbit health and nutrition). Unfortunately, as I was putting the footnotes in, I thought they were being automatically added to the bottom of the page. As I'm at work, I don't have immediate access to these articles or the books that also advocate this. I did clean-up on diseases, I added and explained caecal pellets more throroughly and accurately as they are vital to rabbit health.

All in all, I revamped the whole entry. I have 2 sub-sections to cover yet: gastrointestinal stasis and cancer. I didn't bring any of my info to work with me, so I'll have to do it tomorrow. Please, please don't take the information I've added out. If you think it's not neutral enough, change the wording, but please, this information is necessary.

Narnibird 20:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lifespan

You should think about including the lifespan of a rabbit (9 to 12 years, according to another website) in this site for potential pet owners. Rs564 15:53, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sigh... I miss my Bun Bun

My sister named her "Princess". Had her for six years. She was a large and vibrant one. She raced across the yard, kicking up the dirt and wood chips on purpose, testing the mighty strengths that her tiny legs wielded. Oh how she used to run so fast that she would rise up and run (or hop more like it) on her hind legs. She warned us of Racoons or Cats that would attack or Koi ponds, by stamping her feet noisily or snort or run berserk in her cage. But in her last months she grew old... thin... withered... and as she convulsed for the last time... she was gone... her lifeless eyes still starring. I felt no emotion... I couldn't... the unthinkable had happened. I tried to forget, but all the good times kept swarming back. I couldn't hold back the tears for long... like now... the tears swell up. I love you Princess. You were the best.

-Adam

[edit] Help!?

my rabbit keeps dumping her food out of her bowl. She seems to be eating and I haven't changed her type of food. I don't know what she's trying to do or tell me.

Personally, my rabbit will do this from time to time if she's not getting enough time to run loose. However, if you're worried, consult your vet, or you might try to find a discussion board online for Rabbit owners. --Ahc 05:48, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

She's probably bored. Play with her more, and give her more exercise and toys. -MLS 12:38, 22 Jan 2006 (PST)

Ive got a house bunny and she seems to have a bit of a food ritual. Firstly she'll eat the stuff from the top that she wants (squashed peas) then she'll scratch the food out of the way to get to some more bits she wants. Next she tips the bowl up and rests it on her head while she searches the now spilt food for the bits she likes. Finally she pushes the bowl out the way and goes and sulks. Eventually she'll come back and "graze" up the remaining food, we've considered getting a heaver ceramic bowl but she seems to enjoy pushing her food around.--Pypex 02:42, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

The type of food you are giving her is not recommended these days (it was designed to be fed to meat rabbits who only live up to a year). In Britain you can get rabbit pellets that have all the vitamins etc in them but it's all mixed up together (dark brown colour) so it stops selective feeding. I have an 8 year old netherland dwarf as well as 3 others and they all love it. That said they don't need much - their main diet should be hay or grass with some veg and a little fruit for treats (read the article). If your bunny lives alone then it is probably bored as the others have said. Rabbits are very smart (well some of them are) and very sociable so will need lots of play and attention from you to make up for lack of bunny company. Don't be tempted to introduce a new rabbit unless you know what you are doing as they can fight - it can be done however (I've never failed to introduce a rabbit into the group - 7 in total now - but it's a very slow planned process - I take weeks or months and have a very specific routine but I accept it may not work every time so I have spare cages in case). Also they are all neutered. If you want details leave a message on my talk page.

Rabbits like to explore and mine throw their food bowls around - we use light metal ones to make it easy! Remember they get their food off the floor so it's only us that want's their cage neat. Get drainage pipe from your local builders and saw it into managable lengths remembering to sand down the ends so there are no sharp bits. They love scampering in and out of these and even sleeping in them. Check your rabbit isn't dribbling as it may be having trouble with it's food due to it's teeth - your vet can check the back ones (you don't stand a chance as it's too difficult to see). If you are at all worried you must take your bunny to the vet as they are not particularly hardy when things go wrong so early intervention is key. Hope this helps. SOPHIA 08:01, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

She lives mostly off fresh food TBH, and goes through phases with hay, either hoarding it in her bed or just having the odd nibble as she happens to go past. Ive got her a nice big drainpipe (about 8'') but she doesnt seem to care for it, her favorite activity is running around under shelves, which is where she sleeps 90% of the time.--Pypex 15:24, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

We should move to our talk pages if you want more info. I'm guessing she likes to hide as any good rabbit that wants to survive will do (they are such easy prey in the wild). The pipe may be too big and not make her feel secure enough - I use 6" but I've got small to medium rabbits. As for the hay diet - would you eat brown bread if there was cake to be had? Do not drastically change her diet - it can make a rabbit very ill or even be fatal but if you slowly reduce the amount of fresh food over a period of weeks you'll find she'll eat more hay which is good for keeping the teeth in check. Try a strong plastic ball if she's bored (high quality dog ones are good). SOPHIA 22:05, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 'Training and Play' section

This section only has two words related to 'play.' I don't know enough to add to this myself, but it's definitely something to look at.

Also, most of it is about safety, which really warrants its own sub-section.--Gwilym 08:10, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV advice

I've been going over the article today doing some basic copyediting and removing a lot of very POV advice to rabbit owners. I've done this once before (see above), but I figured I'd comment here again to make sure that no one thought I was just cutting stuff at random. If people feel there should be how-to information, I suggest you start a wikibook. This article (IMHO) should be limited to information about the rabbit's themselves, not what people think are the best ways to care for them. Hopefully I'll finish what I'm working on later in the day. --Ahc 18:28, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I've finished. --Ahc 03:22, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I, too, have done copyediting and POV removal. I've also added sources, or, thought I did. This is what I put above above:

I fixed the whole article, neutralizing it and actually putting some of the information back in. For instance, putting in the necessity of vegetables. They are actually essential to rabbits as pellet-only diets do result in shorter life-spans as well as many illnesses. I have articles to back this (it's also in a lot--A LOT--of books about rabbits and in the Rabbit Talk magazine which is edited by authorities in the field of rabbit health and nutrition). Unfortunately, as I was putting the footnotes in, I thought they were being automatically added to the bottom of the page. As I'm at work, I don't have immediate access to these articles or the books that also advocate this. I did clean-up on diseases, I added and explained caecal pellets more throroughly and accurately as they are vital to rabbit health.

All in all, I revamped the whole entry. I have 2 sub-sections to cover yet: gastrointestinal stasis and cancer. I didn't bring any of my info to work with me, so I'll have to do it tomorrow. Please, please don't take the information I've added out. If you think it's not neutral enough, change the wording, but please, this information is necessary. Narnibird 22:13, 26 October 2006 (UTC) 20:42, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Editing help

I'm very new to editing at Wikipedia,so please feel free to delete this if it doesn't go here. I don't know if it would make a good external link, but please check out speedydutchrabbit.bravehost.com and please have an experienced editor add a link for Rabbit Center (speedydutchrabbit.bravehost.com)if it would make a good external link.

Welcome to Wikipedia. The site you listed does not seem to be complete or stable at the moment (there is a virus warning on the front page). I'd suggest that you try again when the site is healthier. --Ahc 15:26, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Can you add a link to its forum?(z7.invisionfree.com/Rabbit_Center_Forum)I believe it is virus-free as it is not even hosted by Bravenet.

[edit] Rabbit Sex

Is there anything special about it? I'd like to see a section in the main page about it, if anybody knows of special details.

[edit] References trouble

I noticed tonight that the current references are in sad shape. I fixed several problems, but I'm concerned about several more. Many of them are to articles that most likely good sources, but there isn't enough information to actually FIND the articles, making them useless as references. Are there others around that know where these articles can be found so proper references can be written? I tried a track down a couple without success, but I only used online sources (really just Google and HRS's web site) and it was only a 1/2 hearted search. I'll spend some more time now cleaning up the technical problems. --Ahc 04:03, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Major reductions

I know people are going to be displeased with the text I've been cutting over the last twenty minutes or so, but as I've said before this article has become loaded with advice which is inherently biased. The section I expect will cause the most discomfort is the removal of the section on diet nearly in it's entirety. I'll include it here for people to look over. The problem is that it assumes we're talking about pet rabbits, and give advice about what is the best care of those rabbits, and there is only 1 valid citation provided (HRS's website is NOT a good citation for Wikipedia, their print publications we could discuss). Wikipedia should not be give advice about care of animals, just descriptions of how they are cared for. The same applies to the sections of training, and housing. They were ladened with advice on how to care for your pet, mostly written in a biased styled, and lacking citations. Let me be clear (before someone complains) I agree with most of the advice I removed, but without objective measures it's still just opinions and therefore non-Neutral. --Ahc 17:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Removed diet text

Unlimited hay is the main part of a healthy rabbit diet. Hay is essential because it provides most of the rabbit's nutrition, fiber, and is also helpful for wearing down a rabbit's continuously growing teeth. The hays with the best nutritional value and fiber content are timothy and oat hay. Orchard grass, brome grass, and bermuda grass may also be given.

Fresh veggies should be fed daily in limited quantities. For every 2 pounds of body weight, at least one cup of dark green, leafy vegetables should be fed, such as: romaine and escarole lettuces; turnip, mustard, and collard greens; kale, parsley, cilantro, dandelion, and basil. Carrots and fruits should be used sparingly, about 1 tablespoon per two pounds of body weight every other day. Starchy vegetables need to be avoided.

Pellets should be given daily in limited quantities. Commercial feeds should not have nuts, as nuts are highly fatty and cause health problems, such as fatty liver, in rabbits (nuts are in rodent food, and rabbits are not rodents). Pellets should be fed at once ounce per pound of body weight per day, as traditionally, pellets have been fed to rabbits that were meant to be eaten, and cause rabbits to grow overweight. If a rabbit gets pellets, a salt block is not necessary, as pellets are high in salt, though these blocks are not harmful to rabbits who like to have them occasionally.^[1][2]

Water is best given in a water crock or ceramic pet dish. Rabbits drink more with dishes than they do with water bottles. A dog or cat dish can be used.