Talk:Doggy style

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Contents 1 More 'Groomed' Image 2 Naming 3 doggy style 4 Wendi and Dave G 5 same image with leapfrog although it's clearly mentioned that they differ 6 Union of the Cow 7 Not so neutral. 8 Image 9 Image again 10 Protected 11 RFC 12 What if it was a photo of me and my girlfriend? 13 Similar Discussion- Images or not? 14 Drawbacks 15 Upright doggy position? 16 What is it called when he holds her wrists or arms? 17 beard stimulation insertion in benefits 18 Bent Penis 19 Submission 20 too many images 20.1 Two is enough, three too many 21 totally useless image 22 Merge Leapfrog into this article 23 Édouard-Henri Avril 24 Too many images - addressing User:Prosfilaes reversion summary 25 a tergo

[edit] More 'Groomed' Image

Why does the woman have a big squiggle of arm-pit hair? Let's give the guy a big beard and stink-lines while we're at it. Ugh. -Jackmont, march something, 2007

[edit] Naming

there's a redirect from Coitus more ferarum to here. Please explain on the page what this alternate name is. Also, if that's the technical name, the article should go live there. -- Tarquin 10:09 May 12, 2003 (UTC)

I think the Wikipedia convention is to use whatever term is most familiar to speakers of the English language. Somehow I doubt that it's "coitus more ferarum". ;) -- Oliver P. 10:23 May 12, 2003 (UTC)

Hmmm... latin name isn't ideal, but many people find the name "Doggy position" a little crude. It's fine in the pages of Viz, but I don't think it's brilliant for a serious encyclopedia. Like the difference between "arse", "bottom", and the latin medical term which I can't think of. Wikipedia should use "bottom" -- Tarquin 11:40 May 12, 2003 (UTC)

Gluteus maximus? Anus? Nates? Karada 12:52 21 May 2003 (UTC)

It is a little crude, yes, but at least people will know what they're getting before they come here. If they see a link to a Latin phrase, they might follow it expecting to get an article on some obscure legal procedure or some such thing, and they might get a bit of a shock... -- Oliver P. 00:12 May 13, 2003 (UTC)

Quite. We need the middle ground, I think -- Tarquin

[edit] doggy style

Maybe we can move to doggy style since afaik it's the most commonly used expression for this position? Anybody agree or disagree?--Sonjaaa 00:12, Nov 28, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Wendi and Dave G

I'd like some significant historical evidence that these two individuals actually existed. A google search yields no results when conducted as follows: "Wendi and Dave G". I'm almost certain that they're allusory to private citizens whose lives needn't be published in a legitimate source such as Wikipedia. I'm only willing to give the author the benefit of the doubt until such time as someone can verify my suspicions (by finding that these two truly are irrelevant). Thank you. Earthliberator 08:29, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've never heard of sexual aficionados known as "Wendi and Dave G" throughout my eight-year quest in the pornographic realm. Therefore, I am 95% positive that the two aforementioned names are probably fabricated characters or the unsuspecting victims of some rudimentary adult joke. If so, please delete that reference immediately. If not, please enlighten the rest of us on the remarkable achievements of these two doggie experts. Danke, Lowang 08:40, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've removed the disputed tag as the problem has been mitigated. I appreciate the efforts of whichever editor corrected this concern, and am generally pleased by the new version of the article. Earthliberator 18:44, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] same image with leapfrog although it's clearly mentioned that they differ

see subject ;)

[edit] Union of the Cow

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't the different animal-titled Unions in the Kama Sutra have to do with relative sizes of genitalia? Ie., large penis in snug vagina was considered a "higher" union while smaller penis in a looser vagina was "lower"? What does position have to do with it?

Nope, while many of the Kama Sutra's headings denote "This is best suited for a man with a long penis, whose partner can become a human pretzel" (paraphrase), those are simply guidelines related to the ease and anatomical preference of the suggested position. As an exaggeration, "To try the Standing on opposite sides of the room like a Wolf and Sheep Position, it is best if the man is at least 14' long" :P

[edit] Not so neutral.

This line is in one way advocating anal sex:-

Many people do not regard this position as demeaning in any way for either partner, and enjoy the position for its own merits

Does anyone have any statistics to back up this statement?

First off, this sexual position is used for both vaginal and anal sex. Second, there is unlikely to be an appropriate source for this information. However, the fact that it is a widely used position (we can find surveys from Maxim and Cosmo if you would like) seems to imply that it is enjoyable on its own merits. Jrkarp 20:06, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Stating that many people enjoy doggy style is not advocating anal sex. And by the way, wiki should maintain a neutral position on anal sex. - J.G. (Ma, USA)

[edit] Image

Image shows clearly better than line drawing. I refer to Autofellatio, there they also say "Image better than line drawing, clearly". This is common opinion. It has been discuss before. Shall we do again?

• This message was by User:Paeris.

Actually, I don't think the image shows anything better than the line drawings. Autofellatio needs the picture to prove it's anatomically possible, if improbable. The same does not apply here.--SarekOfVulcan 01:17, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with SarekOfVulcan that the photograph just doesn't illustrate the position any better than the line drawings. Evil Monkey - Hello 01:19, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Line drawings are not showing the appropriate proportions. They are not accurate in showing the real procedure. They also are more "obscene" if such exists, as they are showing drawing of parts not in photo. Photo is showing very well what it is, is showing real couple doing so showing it is not demeaning but good as was suggested, and is showing very well that is done by people. Photo is also showing better than drawing because photo is real and is less "obscene" if such exists. This message was by User:Paeris

How is a photo less obscene than a line drawing? I have no interest in this topic, article-wise, but I know that anyone with even a little intellect can tell what doggy style is from the illustrations. A photo isn't necessary. If it's not needed, then it's not got much need to be there. I don't think a photo is needed to show it is "done by real people". That's obvious. Hedley 01:23, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Is less "obscene" if such exists because is not showing breast in photo is more tasteful. Photo against illustration, by this maybe we need replace Orange with Orange line drawing. "but I know that anyone with even a little intellect can tell what *ORANGE* is from the illustrations". Also applies. So your logic is bad, no wrong meaning towards you (you seem have good intelect), but if applies here also applies Orange, and Penis and Vagina, and others that are the same but a little different. This message was by User:Paeris

Nobody has ever been offended by an orange, but many are offended by sexual photos. And the breast being "more tasteful" doesn't mean it's better than an illustrating. It's not meant to be illustrating the breast, nor is it meant to be tasteful at all. It's meant to illustrate doggy style. That's done by the illustration. There's no need for the photo. The photo also has no copyright tag and I assume it's a copyvio. If you think you're right, you can add the photo back, but I expect it will be removed again. You've reverted three times already, meaning that adding it back will violate WP:3RR, as I told you earlier. Hedley 01:30, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

People are offended many times in some places by Penis and Vagina, but still they have photo. As for copytag, Mr. David Johnson already talk to me and we fix issue very much, so is ok. Yes Orange not offend, but Penis yes. This message was by User:Paeris

• Just because something happens once does not mean that it should happen several times. Penis is best illustrated by the image because the Wikipedia community said so. The Wikipedia community has not even began to discuss the inclusion of this image here. Until they do, it shouldn't be included on the article. You should let the community speak. If you add the image to the article again, you do so at your own risk, having been warned of the consequences already. Hedley 01:46, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I think you sound antagonize. You keep saying "Don't add again" and I do not add again, I make case for my point and against yours. You make sound like I ignore your warning not add again, when I not add again and listen to you warnings. Please clear it up here, I have not add again and I listen to you warnings. Do not make case for straw man against me, this is rude severly. This message was by User:Paeris

• I know you haven't added it again, which is good. Hedley 01:52, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I point out you say I am not consensus, neither are you, so who says who gets place it there. Be bold? Not for me? This message was by User:Paeris

I reiterate again that I don't think this is a very good image to illustrate the position. I couldn't care less about the "censorship/obscenity" issue that might surround it. The image does not better than the line drawings in showing the concept. In fact, the photo fails to show what is going on. You can't actually tell what the man is doing at all. Evil Monkey - Hello 02:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Also Paeris, can you please sign your comments by adding ~~~~ at the end of them. Evil Monkey - Hello 02:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

• Consensus is when most people think the image should be there. I've spoken to a few people who say it adds nothing new to the article. Therefore I don't personally think that it should be there. Reverting each other will get us nowhere - everyone involved needs to discuss it first, and agree on something. Until then, leave it out of the article. Hedley 02:09, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

• The photo is clearly better than the stroke-book line drawings that are there right now. Or, rather, it would be if the copyright and license issues are cleared up. If the license issues are resolved, I'll support restoring the photo. The issues about whether the image is "offensive" or "obscene" are complete nonsequiteurs, of course, because Wikipedia is not censored for the protection of minors. Nandesuka 14:11, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

• I personally think that when dealing with a subject matter such as this, images should be as explicit as they need to be, but no more. I agree with the above statement that with Autofallacio, an actual photograph is needed to show that it is indeed possible. When dealing with a human body part, photographs are very appropriate because of the medical and phisiological context (see Anus, Vagina, etc). However, a photograph of two people having sex in this position does no more to increase the knowledge of the reader than the line drawings in the current version of the article. Jrkarp 20:12, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Image again

I looked at the image, and noticed the text at the very bottom saying "I am federal worker" by the uploader. I'm guessing he may be dyslexic or english is not his first language, so don't go too hard on him. I corrected the wording so it made more sense and changed the copywrite tag on the image back. Maybe he can just simply change it to "public domain, released by creator of work" though.

As for whether the image should be allowed in the article, well. The only argument seems to be so far that it's "offensive"

It's not an offensive picture unless you find the natural act of human sex offensive...

Read Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_censored_for_the_protection_of_minors and m:Censorship before making comment please. --Mistress Selina Kyle 02:17, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

• Well, the other argument is that it adds nothing to the article. The text and two illustrations are more than enough to inform the reader what "doggy style" is. So that's two reasons. Reasons for so far? The breast is more tasteful, and the photo is less offensive(?!). I don't think the reasons for are very valid. Also, the image has uncertain copyright - The user marked it as a government image at first. I think it's a copyvio, and I'd like to see some proof of otherwise. The only reason I've left it on the article is because I couldn't care less. I just don't want another debate the size of the Autofellatio one to start. Hedley 02:24, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not offended by the image. I have two concerns, though. First, it is unlikely that the uploader owns the copyright to the image. He certainly isn't a federal employee, and even if he was, that only makes the image public domain if it was created as part of his official duties. This is being discussed on WP:PUI. Second, it's not a very good photo from an illustrative or artistic standpoint. If the copyright status is OK, then it's fine to keep it around until we get a better photo. Rhobite 02:25, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I'll also at this point note that it or any sex-related photos don't offend me. I'm here to try and prevent the future edit wars more than anything. I agree with what Rhobite is saying aswell, apart from even with copyright being ok, the photo doesn't add to the article. The illustrations make the act of "doggy style" clear. Hedley 02:31, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

• It's not a matter of offensiveness, it's a matter of copyright. Copyrighted images may not generally be used on Wikipedia. Radiant_>|< 03:00, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

The photo is unnecessary, given the presence of the two drawings which illustrate the topic far better. The chances that this image is free of copyright issues is close to nil. android79 03:02, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I perfectly agree with Android79 above. Also, the picture is of unnecessarily graphic nature, and does not belong in the article. I don't see why anybody would want more than a diagram. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 03:11, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

That image (assuming it's not ripped from porn of course) is pretty tame really, as it doesn't actually show penetration. But uh, while we do show images of a penis and a vagina on their respective articles, I don't think any article actually shows intercourse (penetration or not). So yeah, while WP:NOT protected for minors, also unencyclopedic. Picture should be out. —Locke Cole 09:49, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Very good point. Showing images of actual intercourse is 'worse' than showing just the body part. Hedley 14:16, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree, that photo is pretty tame really. I find the line drawings unencyclopedic. They look like some childs attempt at drawing porn. The proportions are out and there's no colour or life to them. Could we find some more detailed artistic rendition of doggy style intercourse which would be revealing of the sexual act? Much along the lines of the Klimpt drawing [[1]] or the Karma Sutra article. Some people just won't get doggy style unless you show some quality in your visual representations-- and photographs are more telling. This seems to be exactly the reason why some people find photos distasteful; because they convey the idea so entirely. So, if photos are much more telling, they are obviously more encyclopedic. If a detailed painting would be less offensive I'm open to that (as long as it's better than the children's book junk we have at the moment). Perhaps even a photo of one of various statues around the world depicting doggy style sex (there's plenty in The East). Which ever way we go, the photo being disputed is really tame and probably more so than the image used at the bottom of the strap on dildo article. I think the photo should be reinstated until a better quality one comes along. The copyvio accusations seem like wishful thinking masking as copyright paranoia. Has anyone outside of wikipedia actually come forward contesting the copyright? Peace. Metta Bubble 23:14, 20 December 2005 (UTC) I totally agree with Metta Bubble above. Fantom 18:54, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Protected

I've temporarily protected this page to stop people from edit warring. Please discuss here on the appropriateness of the image (unless, of course, it ends up deleted on copyright grounds). Radiant_>|< 03:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

• Good decision, really. I was considering doing it myself, but I'm rather unwillingly involved in this dispute now, so I decided against it. Hedley 03:12, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Per the previous section, I've unprotected the page and removed the image. Consensus seems obvious that it shouldn't be here. Radiant_>|< 14:27, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] RFC

I've listed this page at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Society and law. Themindset 08:34, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I think this photo is probably doomed so debating it specifically is probably a moot point. However, although I like the photos a lot I think that a clearly presented photo would be useful to wikipedia. Public domain photos of different sex positions could be a good educational resource for the pedias and elsewhere. Kit 11:11, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

That is the more general question of the RFC here, should drawings be sufficient, or do we need full on photos of real people having sex? Themindset 17:47, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

The more general question is what's the most encyclopedic image? Should we settle for sufficient? If we are discussing a line between informative and pornographic, photographs cover the whole gamut. Surely to promote the idea that drawings are "sufficient" and photographs are "over-sufficient?" is to promote wikipedia censorship? I concur with Kit. It would be great to source some public domain photos for this and other sex position articles. Although, I think the missionary position article already has a great artwork. Peace. Metta Bubble 19:59, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Doesn't this bring to the question of what is Encyclopedic? Most would not consider borderline pornographic material to be encyclopedic, some would consider drawings not only sufficient, but fully descriptive. I am actually undecided on all this, and that is part of the reason I initiated the RFC. Themindset 20:29, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

RfC response: the drawings are more informative than the image. They show more of the body postures of both parties. There might also be an issue about whether both subjects gave permission to have their picture taken. Durova 03:17, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Another RfC response: My thoughts on this best align with Locke Cole a couple sections above, who said, "while we do show images of a penis and a vagina on their respective articles, I don't think any article actually shows intercourse (penetration or not)." I find the drawings to be much more encyclopedic (especially with respect to this particular live image, which I don't find to be very descriptive at all). If people believe the current drawings aren't descriptive enough, then hopefully someone will be kind/talented enough to make some different ones. However, I don't feel that live pictures are the way that Wikipedia needs to go in this kind of situation. Just because Wikipedia is not censored for the protection of minors doesn't necessarily encourage us to make pages unnecessarily obscene/pornographic. EWS23 | (Leave me a message!) 19:33, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Good call on the idea of getting better quality drawings (or photos). To classify the image in question as obscene porn is to bias our discussion. I'd be surprised to hear anyone finds it titillating. But like has been said many times, photos are either encyclopedic or not. There's no need to throw in emotional superlatives. Peace. Metta Bubble 07:07, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Regarding the RFC, as long as it's mechnical in nature (ie two people having sex doggy style), and nothing superfluous added, I support the inclusion of such a picture in the article.

MSTCrow 09:47, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What if it was a photo of me and my girlfriend?

So what if it was a photo of me and my girlfriend? --CylePat 00:54, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

If you can make it as informative and representative as the line drawing (that is, more so than the previous image), I, for one, would support using it. I wouldn't support it all that strongly, as the line drawing is perfectly sufficient, but a photo does convey the subject matter, as it occurs in reality, just a smidgen more accurately. And no, I don't believe this article differs all that much from Penis or Armadillo. We could understand either perfectly well through a diagram or pencil sketch, but a photo is simply that much truer to life. As for the matter of obscenity, I fail to grasp how someone reading an article on a sexual position might be offended by a photographic example of that position. 89.0.93.99 05:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

In other news, I seem to have responded to a seven-mohth-old post. That'll teach me to browse Wiki after staying up for 20 hours straight. 89.0.93.99 05:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I wouldn't recommend such a thing. As the furor over Publicgirluk has shown, WP editors don't seem to know how to handle good-faith sexually explicit self-pic uploads. You would likely be labelled a "troll" and blocked, from what I can tell. Kasreyn 12:12, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Kasreyn stop trying to stir up trouble. It's clear that Jimbo offended you when he said you were "suckered", but that doesn't mean you should go around spreading FUD. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 13:36, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

You're right. I shouldn't have dragged that into this discussion, at least not in such a bitter way. Sorry about that. CyclePat, ignore what I said - but it's still probably not a wise thing to upload. Kasreyn 23:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Well more than a year later. It's probably better to keep such a picture as a violation of WP:OR and probably stick to well published and reliable source! But, the issue is still interesting. I mean, what if we have some profesionnal photographer that really wants to give away some of his images. Let's assume it's clean, nice, picture! Or take for example the free educational video's that exist all over the net or like 89.com. etc... Which media to chose? There are principales in taste, culture and even sexual preference. Then the issue of "even if it meets all the rules, it may not necessarilly be included because it's such a minor view point." Humm.... asside, you know this article could probably be improved with links to comic books, popular culture and more exemples in history, the issue of it bein illegal in some cultures (Canada) or how it pratice (if) in other countries. But then again. All I started talking about was the inclusion of an image. (Distastfull... perhaps. Rude... probably. But would it meet wikipedia inclusion... probably. Would it meet exceptance... I doubt it - or maybe it could, I mean I don't usually go reading sex education books... what is the norm?) (perhaps we should base our article on the norm within sex education books?) --CyclePat 17:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Similar Discussion- Images or not?

A similar discussion has begun at Talk:List of sex positions. Go over there if you want to put in your two cents. EWS23 | (Leave me a message!) 06:24, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Drawbacks

One drawback of this position for some is the difficulty of maintaining direct eye contact. Some consider the position humiliating or degrading.

This is an opinion and his no place here. Some people don't want to make eye contact. User:Mattgreen on 13:28, 3 January 2006

Please sign your comments in the future. And it's not opinion; it is a fact that this is a drawback for some. --Prosfilaes 18:56, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps what the person was trying to say is that to say "some" is weasel language, and as such in introducing in an opinion. Mathmo 03:42, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Upright doggy position?

This is referenced in the List of sex positions and redirects to this page but there is no expanded mention of it. Could someone with knowledge of the position add it please? --Tyciol 11:57, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What is it called when he holds her wrists or arms?

A friend of mine who helps sysadmin the web's largest porn video download site where users are allowed to select sub-scene clips recently tallied the sex positions in their 25 most popular sub-scene clip requests. He determined that the most popular sex position (for porn viewers to watch, anyway) is doggy style with the guy holding one or both of the girl's wrists or arms, usually near her back or waist. As far as I can tell, this particular position has no name. Clearly this situation must be rectified. Is there anything better than "doggy with him holding her arm"? 71.141.137.62 07:34, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] beard stimulation insertion in benefits

Humm, I can not see that this is facual, nor relevant. --KimvdLinde 22:22, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bent Penis

"Also, it is possible for the male penis to be accidently bent in a painful direction in the position, if so happens."

Where is this from? I've never had it happen to me, and my wife and I use this position quite often!

This is indeed a concern, although I've never experienced more than discomfort from it. It occurs when the woman moves after thrusting, when the penis is deepest.

[edit] Submission

Under Drawbacks: "Some consider the position humiliating or degrading because of its perceived link to animal copulation, or more generally, because of its perceived submissive (or receptive) nature." - surely this is a benefit for many people using this position? Unlike the other drawbacks, which are things I imagine few people actively want, the submissive aspect is for many people one of the points of using this position. On the other hand, people who didn't like the submissive aspect surely wouldn't be using this position at all. Shouldn't it therefore go under benefits (or at least elsewhere)? Mdwh 03:36, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Although I agree with you that the percieved humilating/degrading nature of the position can be both a benefit or a drawback, I think that on the whole most people would consider it a drawback. As for the point about people not using the position if they didn't like the submissive nature of the position, that doesn't strike me as very logical. A drawback doesn't become less a drawback because it causes more people to not partake in an activity, it's evidence of the contrary. Charles (Kznf) 18:16, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Surely the emphasis should be reasons why people do a particular thing, rather than reasons why people don't? At the least, Wikipedia should not be casting an opinion on whether something is a drawback or not, so I'll move it to a more neutral section for now. Consider Woman on top sex position, where it is phrased "Proponents of the cowgirl position say there are these advantages" - it may be true that there are more people who don't perform that particular position because they don't like those features, but we don't list reasons from their point of view.

A drawback doesn't become less a drawback because it causes more people to not partake in an activity - whether it's a drawback in the first place is POV. Mdwh 15:13, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] too many images

the article looks like a mess right now, can we please settle on just one image? Themindset 19:01, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

• The line drawing subtitled "possible variant" (185px-PS-sur-le-lit.jpg) seems to be a different position to me and contradicts the "crouches on all fours" description. -RJFerret 20:24, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Two is enough, three too many

I have, for the second time, cut the number of images down to two. This number seems reasonable to me when one is a modern line drawing meant to clearly illustrate the position and the other is a historical artifact meant to show that the position has a long history. The third picture did not add anything to the article. Indeed, it did not even illustrate the position, but only the female half of it.

If someone can find a third image which adds new information to the article, perhaps I would be ok with that. However, for an article of this length (short), having even two images is already edging up on being cluttered. --Strait 20:15, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] totally useless image

having that drawing tells the viewer just about nothing about the subject, is waaaay to abstract. several suitable photos are very much so needed in this article. Mathmo 14:27, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

went back and search through the history to add back two pics, left out the other one because it is not doggy position (merely is an example of her taking it from behind, and that does not make it automatically doggy style). still could do with a good photo Mathmo 14:38, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge Leapfrog into this article

I propose merging Leapfrog sex position into this article. I think that:

• The name "leapfrog" has no general acceptance
  • The article cites no references for it (it has no references at all, for that matter)
  • I have never seen it outside of Wikipedia and certainly not off the web
• I think most people would consider it to be a type of doggy style rather than a whole different position
• There is not much to say on the topic of the "leapfrog" position which couldn't also be said about doggy style

--Strait 00:30, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

OPPOSE

• the name naming of various positions is fairly regional, but leapfrog is the best one available.
• the lack of references is a problem in itself and will not be solved by merging it into doggystyle
• if there are references in doggystyle that also apply to leapfrog they could be added to leapfrog aswell
• even tho some people may find it similar to doggystyle, it is in fact a different position. There could be a section of internal links to similar positions with a brief explanation
• the point of neckstrain is only valid for leapfrog.
• diversity is a great good.

maybe we should let the project human sexuality have the final say? (after reviewing the pros and cons, and the amount of support, oppose) Martijn Hoekstra 00:47, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Sure, I understand that it is not the same position as doggy, but it is very similar. And I'm not saying that we should remove the content of the page from Wikipedia, as you seem to imply in your last two points, only that it should be put on the same page with similar content.

As far as naming goes, I do not agree that "leapfrog" is the best name available. As far as I know, it is only used by one person anywhere (whoever added that page and the entry at list of sex positions). And even if there is a small population of English speakers that call it "leapfrog", I bet there are many other small populations that call it various other things. Given the lack of any consensus, I think the best name available is "the variant of doggy style in which the receiving partner angles their torso downwards". --Strait 03:59, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and feel free to solicit opinions on this from the sexuality project. I don't know what it would mean to let them have the final say, though. The project members are just whoever puts themselves on the project page, and that includes me. --Strait 04:04, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I might have worded my oppose a little too agressive. Furthermore my remark about the sexuality project is indeed nonsense. The notablility I will leave to the native english speakers. I had seen and heard the term before, but as I don't speak english natively I have little to say on that issue. I'm looking forward to hear what other people have to say about it. Martijn Hoekstra 17:53, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

A google test on leapfrog sexual position indicates notability Martijn Hoekstra 22:10, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so. I searched for "leapfrog sex" (without the quotes) and looked at the first 60 hits. Excluding hits which are Wikipedia mirrors or clearly derived from Wikipedia, the first relevant link looked like our leapfrog. The second, from Cosmo, is a completely different position. The next is from Urban Dictionary, a completely unreliable source, and says that "leapfrog" is "When two are having doggy-style sex, and the giver hops over the receiver and farts in their face." The fourth mentions it in a list, so you can't tell what position it means. Then there's a duplicate Cosmo hit, then one that says "half leapfrog v. To have sex in the doggies (qv) position." Most or all of the rest of the hits are accidental, having nothing to do with a position called leapfrog. --Strait 21:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I stand corrected. I google on leapfrog "sexual position" and it turned up a quazillion hits. I checked the first one and it was the position described here as leapfrog. I assumed the rest was the same. My personal familiarity seems to be coincidental. However, on the other grounds mentioned, I maintain my oppose. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Martijn Hoekstra (talk • contribs) 01:35, 5 January 2007 (UTC).

Just for completeness, I duplicated your search. The first two hits were Wikipedia itself. The next two were clearly derived from Wikipedia. The next two I strongly suspect are derived from Wikipedia. Next is irrelevant, then there's one from Urban Dictionary describing something else sexual, then two Wikipedia mirrors, then one that is probably the same as ours and probably not influenced by Wikipedia, then some irrelevancies and then something which defines it only as an "Inconventional and possibly illegal sexual position". It continues in this way. --Strait 17:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

For Merge - I looked at the article carefully, and I have to say, as experienced as I am, I had never heard it called "Leapfrog position". I've always called it, and other similar variations "Doggy style". After reading the discussion so far, I was willing to consider that maybe my terminology is/was relgional, and that other places it might be called other things. I looked through my personal library (only 50 or 60 sex books) and could find no reference to leapfrog immediately visible. Checking google, and the google scholar did not clarify. Google had numerous references, every one of which was derived from Wikipedia. Looking for "doggy style" I found numerous references unrelated to Wikipedia, on both. I would be hard pressed to be convinced that this was not just a local invention, or term used by some high schoolers in Nebraska that heard a rap song by Snoop-dog. I'm thinking I could make an article on the "Ass-high sex position", and in two months it might have more references on google than "Leapfrog sex position". BTW, your quazillion turns out to be 0 references to "leapfrog sex" on google scholar, and 948 references on google for "leapfrog sex". This is opposed to "backdoor sex" with 29,900 entries, "butt sex" with 824,000, "ass sex" with 1,140,000 entries, and of course, "doggy style" with 1,260,000 entries. As I couldn't even find an Internet porn site that referenced "Leapfrog", I'm pretty sure this is a very isolated term. Using ghits can be a useful tool, in a limited way, for assisting with making a decision, but can't be taken at face value. My editorial opinion is for merge, in this case. Atom 11:53, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Édouard-Henri Avril

I was perussing the media commons for image of "doggy style" and I found a [doggy style picture] that was created, apparently by an artist in the 18 hundreds by Édouard-Henri Avril. (no article here on wikipedia yet and I've never heard his name) Anyone interested in adding this research here? --CyclePat 17:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Note: In the see also, we just added the wiki commons category [commons:category:doggy_style_positions|"doggy style"] to the article. Thank you! --CyclePat 19:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Too many images - addressing User:Prosfilaes reversion summary

In this edit: 02:06, January 8, 2007 Prosfilaes (Talk | contribs) (I disagree; the length of the article does not determine number of images, and historic images are good for giving a larger perspective). This argument contravenes established policy. Please read: Wikipedia:Image_use_policy#Image_queuing. Themindset 18:24, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

You mean the part that says "it is often a good idea to temporarily remove the least-important image from an article and queue it up on the article's talk page."? That is, don't just delete it from the user page.--Prosfilaes 20:47, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think I deleted anything from a user page, but I did fail to move it here. So here it is. Themindset 21:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I certainly don't think the article is too short for two images, and I note that User:Strait, above, also pushes for two pictures.--Prosfilaes 13:09, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think Strait was aware of the policy I've referred to, but simply edit-warring your way around policy is not the correct approach. Scanning your user talk page, I can see that this is not an infrequent approach for you - and I would suggest that instead of just reverting against policy that you look towards dispute resolution processes. How about submitting this for RFC? Themindset 17:38, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Trying to wield policy like a sledgehammer is not a good idea. The policy you're quoting does not say what you want it to. It leaves the questions of how many images is too many unspecified. It also speaks in terms of suggestions, "it is a good idea", rather than imperatives, and suggests removing "the" singular least important image, rather than deleting multiple images. You're welcome to take to an RFC, but this is not a policy issue.--Prosfilaes 18:39, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know whether or not I had read Wikipedia:Image_use_policy#Image_queuing when I made my previous comment, but I still think that two images is the right number for this page. It has enough text to support them. --Strait 17:45, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] a tergo

"a tergo" Latin term is missing. Also being the only or mostly used position in much of the animal realm is not mentioned. Pavel Vozenilek 18:00, 28 February 2007 (UTC)