Talk:Dizzy Gillespie

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A spoken article may be a good idea, but what is hard to pronounce about his name? yEvb0 14:49, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I've heard people unsure over whether his last name is "ghi-LES-pee" (like giddy) or "jih-LES-pee." (If anyone's unsure, it's the former.) If anyone else notices that problem, maybe it'd be a good idea to include a pronunciation key for his name? --JoeTrumpet 20:56, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I can't find any reference to "Gillespie's pouch" which doesn't originate from this article - can anyone provide a source? The story about the trumpet bending is given in an anthology of jazz writing I have, I'll look up the exact details. I always thought it was to project the sound upwards, but according to DG himself it was the alteration in the tone which made him keep it. --  ajn (talk) 09:25, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

  • I can't find another instance of "Gillespie's pouch" that isn't a derivative of this article. Therefore the safe conclusion is that it is only conjecture, and as such I will remove the reference. If anyone can find any independent documentation of this claim, then by all means the reference can be reinstated. --Cholmes75 19:03, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Who employed whom?

The line, "Dizzy was soon being excoriated for his adventurous solos by his employee" doesn't sound right. I kind of assume that Diz was the empoyeE and it was his employeR that excoriated him, but I might be misunderstanding the arrangement. Unless I hear different, I'll change the 'e' to an 'r'. Matt Deres 00:25, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Another point: my understanding was that though Calloway didn't appreciate Gillespie's avantgarde music, the flashpoint for his firing was an incident involving a spitball onstage. ND 06:32, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] gaelic??

I don't really understand where this article is coming from, but it alleges that Dizzy Gillespie spoke Scots Gaelic? Anyone?? [1] Dan Carkner 16:07, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

This article quotes another article. [2] The full quote from there is:
"Dizzy used to tell me tales of how the blacks near his home in Alabama and in the Carolinas had once spoken exclusively in Scots Gaelic. He spoke of his love for Scotland. He'd often tell me to get over to Scotland because the people were so friendly and the love of the music so warm."
This alleges only that at some previous time blacks near his home spoke Scots Gaelic. Even though it's possible that this could have included his family or himself, the article doesn't explicitly state it. -LambaJan 03:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh, god, THIS guy. I know nothing about the source cited there (Willie Ruff played with Gillespie in 1971 but I'm not too impressed by his hearsay evidence); Cassidy however is a fruitcake obsessed with pseudo-etymology whom I've encountered a few times before (including in the pages of a jazz journal that should have known better). There's a demolition job on that piece you cite at Language Log: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003326.html -- ND 05:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Ohhhh ok just wondering..it seemed kind of outlandish. Dan Carkner 20:34, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Muscle damage?

The article alleges that the distension of Dizzy's cheeks "is in fact a result of muscle tissue damage" and not poor technique, and cites an article ( http://www.clinica-planas.es/artcien20.html ) which states "Finally, the condition described in this paper is to be differentiated from weakness the buccinators shown by certain trumpet artists, particularly Dizzie Gillespie." Since the cited article explicitly states that the type of muscle damage it discusses does not pertain to Dizzy Gillespie, the statement about muscle tissue damage should be removed, unless there's a reference that states otherwise. -- Kurivaim 05:07, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dizzy

Great article and talk page! Can somebody please include a reference as to how he got his monicker?83.180.128.192 10:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

apparently it came from his antic as a comic (more of a joker in his early days.)--Smkolins 23:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lead paragraph

I have reverted the change to remove two characteristics from the lead. They both played important parts in his life, and need to be there. -- Jeff3000 17:12, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree - J.R. Hercules also seem to have a reputation about removing certain kinds of content from comments on his talk page even though he just cleaned his talk page. Noting his faith and ethnicity is not "micro-characterization" in this case. I see what *he* did as against Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(biographies)#Opening_paragraph. Dizzy Gillespie is a singularly well known Baha'i - probably the best known one[3][4], which also played important roles in his life and music as amplified in the main text, and being African-American is a key aspect of his life and music.--Smkolins 17:25, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Read that Manual of Style link again - it specifically says the opposite of what you claim it says. As I pointed out on your talk page, admin intervention may be necessary to avert any further edit wars.J.R. Hercules 18:34, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
May I note that MoS are just guidelines, and exceptions are made all the time. I still disagree, and I believe both the faith and race are very important parts of Gillespie's life. Regardless, I have no need to get into an edit war since I don't care enought, but I just wanted to note that bringing threats of admin action are definitely not appropriate. -- Jeff3000 18:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I suggest the MoS is being obeyed - generally ethnicity and religion aren't being used. This is a specific case where it is - in which case it is obeying, not flouting, the rules as written. First being African-American, and advocating that reality in light of the history of African-Americans in the US is fair. Far too often assumptions of majority positions disadvantaged African-Americans and Dizzy suffered this too. I recognize that wikipedia has a broader audiance than the US and being overly American centric will just confuse people and I've corrected entries elsewhere along those lines but I see no need to avoid mention of African-American in this context. Second, being a Baha'i: on the one hand Dizzy is among the most famous of Baha'is - on the other hand like most Baha'is he did not play it up at every opportunity and many people still don't know he was one. But he was and there is no reason to hide it. More directly the Baha'i Faith played an important role in Dizzy's life according to the one published biography I found and close friends mentioned there and online elsehwhere who do not avoid, indeed laud, the effect his faith had on him as detailed in references.--Smkolins 20:19, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
If there is sufficient documented evidence supporting that he was a Baha'i above any other belief system and we don't have a case of religious name dropping here, then I think this would favor a Baha'i mention. While I new the man personally in a minor professional sense, he never volunteered his religious convictions to me. Mombas 11:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
A quick search provides sources such as:
  • Shipton, Alyn (2001). Groovin' High. New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0195144104.  A review of the book by Publishers Weekly states "Shipton credits Gillespie's embrace of the Baha'i faith by 1970 as key to the spiritual growth that allowed him to assume the roles of teacher and prophet for a generation of younger musicians." [5]
  • An article based by the same author of the above book can be found here. In it he states "It might be trite to suggest that Bahá'í filled the vacuum created in Dizzy's life by endless touring, but there is more than a little truth in it"
  • The Spiritual Side of Dizzy, among some quotes "...Becoming a Bahá´í changed my life in every way and gave me a new concept of relationship between man and his fellow-men and his family. I became more spiritually aware, and when you are more spiritually aware that will be reflected in what you do."
  • A video of Gillespie with Dan Seals, another Baha'i: Part 1, Part 3 (Part 2 is just music)
  • Another video where Gillespie talks about the Baha'i Faith, Part 1, Part 2
  • Here's an interview with him from Jazz Magazine, where he goes in depth, but it's in French. [6]
  • Wright, Josephine R. B. (1976). "Conversation with John Birks "Dizzy" Gillespie, Pioneer of Jazz". The Black Perspective in Music 4 (1): pp. 82-89. 
  • There are less important passing statements such as [7], [8], [9], [10]
-- Jeff3000 15:50, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Bottom line- Was his spiritual conviction mentioned in his published autobiography, To Be or not to Bop (1979)? It would appear that his public conviction towards Baha'i was not as prominent as that of Seals and Croft. Mombas 22:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The above quote: "...Becoming a Bahá´í changed my life in every way and gave me a new concept of relationship between man and his fellow-men and his family. I became more spiritually aware, and when you are more spiritually aware that will be reflected in what you do." is from his published autobiography, To Be or not to Bop. -- Jeff3000 23:05, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I would amiplify that this change has practical effect from the citations that he was known for his temper in youth - being called a "roughneck" and known to "always carry a knife" and used it to being an "ambassador" and who's even silent presence brought a feeling fo comfort and peace.--Smkolins 11:42, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
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