Wikipedia talk:Disruptive user

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[edit] Policy Proposal

I'm sure the creation of this article will raise eyebrows and draw the cavarly charging in. I apologize ahead of time that I'm not overly familar with the procedures of making policy pages. I purposed this on the Village Pump but only got a very short reply saying that, yes there was such a thing as a Wikipedia Bully, with elements of who these people are covered under personal attacks regulations and the procedures involoving trolls.

We've all seen them. The people that dont vandalize the articles but slam the content, calling the users names, stating that the article itself is garbage, and then slapping VFD notices out of spite or causing disruption on an FAC page.

I would like to propose that this page be examined by other users and perhaps be made into: Wikipedia policy. I was bold in creating it since one of Wikipedia principals is to indeed be bold. Floor is open for further action here. -Husnock 6 July 2005 04:00 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

I'm not really sure what this proposal is saying. Do we mark their user pages with some bully insignia? Do we tell users to watch out for them? How? Howabout1 Talk to me! July 6, 2005 16:21 (UTC)

I was thinking along the lines of establishing a procedure on how to identify a Wikipedia Bully and then steps to handle such people. The problem with such users is that they dont vandalize pages, but rather attack other users with very harsh words and engage in things like massive VFDs or constant opposition to any FAC that a particular user nominates. -Husnock 6 July 2005 16:39 (UTC)
  • Here are my suggestions for this project. Other users can add their input and we add this to the pollicy if it is accepted. A disruptrive user (DU) is nominated on the project page. The DU is told about it and is asked to defend himself. If the community feels that he is not a DU then the case is closed. If it is agreed that he is, a committee (more on that later) decides to either take it to RfC of Mediation Committee. They also may decide to deem the person a vandal or troll. Then they may go straight to ArbCom or the places above. The committee will have four or five members for a later decided term. They will have the following powers: all the things listed above, closing a case against a DU and deciding the outcome, and mediating with the DU if it is deemed usefull to do so. Howabout1 Talk to me! July 6, 2005 23:40 (UTC)

Comments regarding suggestion by Howabout1:

  • I like that idea and actually proposed something similar quite some time ago, to be known as the "Civility Committee". Such a committee would have the power to declare when a user is behaving improperly on Wikipedia, i.e. engaging in hostile actions towards other users or cuasing problems. They could then warn the user (a requirement before further action would be taken) and refer the user to one of the more serious committees if the actions continued. The delaing with disruptive users should also somehow be incorporated into Dispute Resolution. -Husnock 7 July 2005 22:29 (UTC)
Dispute resolution
Negotiation
Requests for comment
Third opinion
Mediation
Mediation Committee
Requests for mediation
Community enforceable mediation
Arbitration
Arbitration Committee
Requests for arbitration
Probation
Article probation
Mentorship
Member groups
Members' Advocates
Mediation Cabal
Guerrilla Mediation Network
Editor assistance
v • d • e
    • On further note, the committee to declare someone a disruptive user I think should be added in the following template to the right. Perhaps under "Member Associations"
Well, berore we make a committee we need some more support. So far it has been just us debating this. I'll advertise this on the village pump. Howabout1 Talk to me! July 7, 2005 23:27 (UTC)
I don't see that this serves any need. We already have a Wikipedia:Dispute resolution process. Maurreen 8 July 2005 02:40 (UTC)

Yes, but is there anything there for disruptive users? Would the mediation committee be necissary here? What are we mediating? Sure, we could just go straight there if it was an article, but what about a user? If a user is being insulted, but not to the point of a personal attack, what then? What I am suggesting, I suppose, is a milder form of the Mediation committe. Howabout1 Talk to me! July 8, 2005 03:29 (UTC)

There is also Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts and WP:RFC. Maurreen 9 July 2005 05:55 (UTC)
I happened to notice that page a few minutes after I answered you before. The only problem with it is it is only for constructive critisism, not mediation. As for RfC, if you read my statement above we will use RfC. However with the problem we are addressong, RfC might not help in all places. Even with the community talking to a user, he/she may not back down. Remember, we are addressing a single user here, not a dispute. Howabout1 Talk to me! July 9, 2005 15:40 (UTC)
You also might want to vote below. Howabout1 Talk to me! 00:03, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
I don't think this page/policy is useful or necessary -- the existing procedures are enough. They don't always work smoothly, but adding another layer of committee, bureacracy and m:instruction creep are not going to make it any smoother, and it's not going to make the "DUs" suddenly more cooperative. — Catherine\talk 20:21, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Okay. This may not be useful. I have one question, though. Suppose you were in a dispute with a "disruptive user", what would you do. If you have a good replacement for this, then I might reconsider my vote. You might want to vote. Howabout1 Talk to me! 22:38, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

More votes are certianly needed. I agree, Request for Comment seems to be a way to handle these kinds of people. Maybe this can be a sort of committee (much like my older "Civility Committee" idea), in that people can be refered to RFC when and if they are causing problems on Wikipedia like overbearing personal attacks, abuse of VFD, and problems on FAC pages. But, regardless of that, more people need to vote on this! :-) -Husnock 22:51, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Name change

This needs a new name. Suggestions are nolonger welcome.

I think the point was well made that calling someone a "Bully", especially those who would be engaging in such behavior anyway, would indeed cause further problems. The name was changed to "Disruptive User" per the comment below. -Husnock 7 July 2005 16:45 (UTC)

Suggestions

  1. Wikipedia: Disruptive users.

[edit] Vote

Voting ends 04:32 July 19, 2005 (UTC)

Support

Oppose

  • Oppose -- I think this might have a chilling effect on editors and brew up a host of problems in the direction of name calling. Calicocat 02:03, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. My reasoning is above. Maurreen 05:58, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. An invitation to abuse. The editors who feel that their pet Truth has been doubted will call others Disruptive Users. Septentrionalis 13:52, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Will not induce Disruptive Users to be less disruptive, will only be used as a weapon. — Catherine\talk 17:21, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I don't quite see how calling a user disruptive is constructive, as per my comments below. — Asbestos | Talk 17:42, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The existing systems are more than sufficient, as per talk below. brenneman(t)(c) 02:34, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Asbestos. r3m0t talk 13:28, July 17, 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. There is little that is firm enough to even call a vote on that I can see. Also, the proposal is redundant with Mediation, RfC, ArbComm even if they don't always work. -Splash 02:17, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Neutral

[edit] Vote discussion

    • How is a place for "DU"'s to defend themselves before going to Mediation Committee or RfC any more, if not less, a weapon than either of them. Howabout1 Talk to me! 17:44, July 11, 2005 (UTC)
    • This could also be used as a simple definition, i.e. when someone goes to RFC, and various broken Wiki rules are listed as precedence, being a Disruptive User can be one of them. It doesnt have to be an actual process just a designation for a certain type of user much like vandal, sockpuppet, and bot. -Husnock 17:56, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
      • That would be an interesting definition. Propose it on the appropriate page and I may well support the edit; but it's not the proposal we're voting on here. Septentrionalis 02:30, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
        • Thats a good point. Where would the page be moved to as a definition of policy instead of policy itself? Is there are another category of project pages? -Husnock 03:56, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Perhaps we could tell their mummies on them. Grace Note 02:14, 11 July 2005 (UTC) Do not remove my vote. Why you want an institutionalised form of whining is readily apparent, but you are likely to find your way onto Wikipedia:Humourless User at this rate. -- Grace Note
    • Do you have an actual reason for opposing this? Howabout1 Talk to me! 02:21, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
    • That looks to me as inactionable, as it states no reason for or against just expresses a dislike. As far as the original vote, I think it got removed as vandalism as it said something about spanking people and pulling down their pants??? 1 -Husnock 03:30, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
      • I don't have to give a reason for opposing your proposal. I can simply vote to oppose it if I like. Someone else wrote about spanking people. I suggested we could write to the mothers of the people who are upsetting you. That might work. At least, it'll probably work just as effectively as having committees for you to whine about them to. -- Grace Note.
        • "Write to the mothers of the people who are upsetting you"? Are you actually expecting people to take you seriously? That strikes me as an arrogant attack of the proposal by someone to which it would actually apply. As far as you not writing the vandal comment, we cant prove it but it is interesting you are posting under various anon IP addresses and the same vandal IP address that posted the above comment has appeared on your own user page 2. -Husnock 04:19, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
      • What I find interesting is that comments like that are exactly the kind on incivility that we can do without. Imagine I said, "yes, it's interesting how cross-dressing and spanking are common on U.S. Naval ships when crossing the equator and it's interesting that it's said "what happens at sea stays at sea"? You would quite justifiably take that as an unacceptable personal attack. If you believe something, state so clearly, with evidence, in NPOV. brenneman(t)(c) 02:34, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
        • LOL! I wouldnt find that offensive at all. I have been through a Crossing the Line ceremony and am a Shellback. And what you said...is absolutely true! ;-) -Husnock 02:57, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
  • I don't quite see how calling a user disruptive is constructive. If I think a user is being disruptive and want community input, I'd probably think it best to file a Request for Comment. This would be much less provocative, as it isn't name-calling (plenty of respectable users here have been engaged in RFC's. If I actually wanted some action taken against them, I might file a RFAr. This seems to fall somewhere between the two extremes, but doesn't really seem to contribute to the dispute resolution process. Maybe this could be changed to Wikipedia:Don't be a disruptive user, or something of the sort, which lists specific kinds of behaviours which you believe aren't covered explicitly elsewhere, and which could then be used in RFAr? — Asbestos | Talk 17:42, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
    • Thats the best idea I've heard. Make this a Guideline Page and use this template. If we did that, would people change votes to support? -Husnock 18:57, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
      • Well, I wouldn't. This isn't a guideline page - it's a proposed policy, guideline or process, like the template says. You can't just put the "guideline" template on it. I still don't get the point of this page. r3m0t talk 13:31, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Alternatively,

it may be possible to alleviate the problem by discouraging personal attacks. In particular, some people have argued that users that make frequent personal attacks should be given a warning block, just as users who frequently revert war are given one (per the 3RR, for instance). See Wikipedia:Blocking policy/Personal attacks for details and discussion. Radiant_>|< 11:32, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

Ok. Suggest that above. The proposal is about bullies. Everyone seems to be voting on my idea. Howabout1 Talk to me! 14:37, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

Possibly to advance the points on the project page, it might be better (there or a longstanding page), to essentially define certain behavior as "disruptive", without labeling people. That is, possibly then during dispute resolution, User X could say User Y has been disruptive.
But I am wary of the possiblity of subjective blocking. Maurreen 16:35, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
I think this page would serve as a definition for someone when bringing someone before an RFC. In an RFC, there is a list of policies that a person has possibly violated. Being a disruptive user could be one such case. -Husnock 17:00, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Part of my point is to distinguish the behavior from the person. Maurreen 17:26, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
If we wanted to be punative, this would be a great proposal. Ambiguous enough to be abused, and without any apparent "carrot". If instead we want to improve the behavior of borderline users, this is a poorly considered proposal. Additionally, we already have problems with the outcomes of previous judgments weighing too heavily in current ones. See William M. Connolley's RFA where his mere appearance in an RFAr appears to have prevented his promotion. brenneman(t)(c) 02:34, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
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