Talk:Disco

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	A Wikipedian removed Disco from the good article list after consensus was reached to do so. There are suggestions below for improving areas to satisfy the good article criteria. Once the objections are addressed, renominate the article as a good article. If you disagree with the objections, you can seek a review.
Article Milestones Date Process Result January 19, 2004 Refreshing of brilliant prose Not kept February 2, 2006 Good article nominee Listed May 15, 2006 Good article review Delisted Current Status: Delisted good article

Contents 1 Article removed from Wikipedia:Good articles 2 Easy listening 3 Waka guitar 4 First US Disco 5 Removed 6 Europe 7 Confusion about "Disco Dog" 8 Infobox 9 Possible opinionated article portion(s)... 10 Eagle Disco Hit? 11 French Defintion just as accurate in English? 12 Radio stations 13 "I Love the 70s" didn't mention it 14 Disco in Australia and New Zealand 15 Dancepunk 16 "Natural progression" to house 17 Abba image 18 ABBA 19 Ones Discotheque 20 Some interesting little-known facts about Ones- 21 Disambiguation, please 22 New Perspective on the evolution past disco 23 Limited geographic scope 24 Dr. philharmonic's edit 25 Contradict 26 Disco Orchestration 27 Nice Touch: "Disco Orchestration" page 28 To Dr. Philharmonic's erronous assertion 29 Disco Era 30 The Transitionary Period of the Early 1980's 31 House/Techno Clarification 32 Rock vs Disco 33 Disco IS Rock 34 James Brown the "Original Disco Man" and Kraftwerk 35 Can disco music be slow? 36 On the section Disco "spinoffs" 37 recent genrebox change 38 Random thoughts for the Disco Rivival Section 39 Breaks 40 Bad Appearance 41 Nelson James 42 Donna Summer 43 Citing references 44 Should this link be included? 45 Edit warring 46 Sound inclusions would be great 47 Suggestion for procedure 48 Hard Rock 49 Blondie's "Rapture" 50 Length 51 Is Synth disco 52 Saturday Night Fever 53 Who sang song "Pop Music" 54 80's disco 55 Anti disco backlash then Anti emo backlash now 56 Removed vandalism 57 Disco was expensive to produce 58 1200 bpm? 59 Needs a lock

[edit] Article removed from Wikipedia:Good articles

This article was formerly listed as a good article, but was removed from the listing because the article is poorly organized and has 18 sections, many of which are not substantial. Brennsto 17:11, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Easy listening

Would it be blasphemy to suggest that disco also owes a lot to the so-called "easy listening" music that was popular before and alongside it?

I'm not sure what religion you are a part of, but Robert Fink makes the comparison, through minimalism or "repetitive music", in his (2005) Repeating Ourselves: American Minimal Music as Cultural Practice. ISBN 0520245504. Hyacinth 14:00, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Hyacinth, you're talking about electronic music. Easy listening (or pop as known back then) is like Frank Sinatra, Bing Crosby, etc. Disco does not owe a lot to "easy listening" but rather to the dance crazes from ragtime to swing to the twist and its copycats. --Musicluv 03:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Waka guitar

"Disco also had a characteristic electric guitar sound (somebody who plays electric guitar should explain the effect used)."

Yes, please.  :-) Koyaanis Qatsi, Saturday, July 6, 2002

wakka-chakka wakka-chakka wakka-chakka (biddle-um, biddle-um, biddle-um baaahhhh...). Who's the black private dick who's the sex machine to all the chicks? SHAFT!!!. I think you all know what that sound is now... Graham 04:59, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It was a Wah-Wah pedal.

I think it's actually combination of Wah-Wah and Flanging.

Astatine 17:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First US Disco

The article stated that:

"The Whisky A Go-Go night club in Los Angeles, was the first disco in the United States. It opened on January 11, 1962."

However, in the opinion of Jones and Kantonen (1999), Le Club was the first disco (in New York) in 1960. Hyacinth 21:09, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Removed

• While the anti-disco backlash was primarily a white phenomenon in the U.S., little overt racism was associated with the phenomenon there, where the most fervant disco-hating rock fan could simultaneously consider Jimi Hendrix the greatest guitar player who ever lived.

I removed the above sentence because:

1. I don't know if overt racism was associated with the US disco backlash, but it was seemingly covert, and the sentence attempts to show that it was not racist.
2. Considering Jimi Hendrix the greatest guitar player who ever lived is not proof that one is not racist. It is similar to the unverifiable argument, "I'm not racist, I have black friends!" Also, appreciation of Hendrix's talent could be entirely racist with his physical skill and rhythm being attributed to his ethnicity.

However, I wish to note that I created much of the edited content, and the sentence above was added as a reaction to my POV. As such the article is better off than before. What do you think User:64.73.98.126?

Hyacinth 21:35, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Europe

I think the article could do with some input from a European perspective. Northern Soul was a progenitor but "discos" were popular throughout the 70s in all of Europe. Another factor which must have had a lot to do with disco's popularity was that it was usually the music played when young people went abroad, many for the first time during that period. The holiday resorts were full of US and Euro disco, and on returning home the same tracks were bought and played. The same phenomenon with "clubbing" holidays continues to this day. Also, I seem to recall that there were a number of US artistes who only got their break when they came to the UK and got airplay there, which was subsequently rexported to the US. BUt I'm no expert so I'm not qualified to add stuff myself. But at present article is a bit US-centric. Graham 05:05, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with that. I'm from Amsterdam, The Netherlands, myself. I've been in France and other European countries back in the disco era, and what we call "disco" is encompassing much more than what is being made of it here. For instance, loads of really good disco music was made in Italy, Germany, France and even here in The Netherlands, because there was a lot of money in mafia to buy the early synthesizers. Moroder, for one, was an Italian living in Munich when the Donna Summer hits were created I believe. Disco to us here therefore also includes music by Gino Soccio, Cowley, Moroder himself (not only his Donna Summer work) plus many Italian producers. When I see this page, it's as if Europe didn't influence the genre, while it is the other way around in many ways. It wasn't Chicago or London where house-music started, even, the first fast-paced housey acidy music came from Italy, Germany and The Netherlands if you ask me. Take for example 'Remember' by Vivien Vee from 1977, and 'Crazy Family' by Jock Hattle, the long version from 1982. They both have long-lasting breaks in them, perfect examples of disco that would now be called "house" or maybe even "trance" for parts of them. JuliusThyssen 23:44, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

WRONG. House started in America as much as disco music did. There were already breaks and "acidy" sounds long before Italy ever graced the scene.

[edit] Confusion about "Disco Dog"

I cannot find it on any website, the show doesn't exist, neither does the cartoon or even the character exist in the 1970s TV shows. I know he must be there on the internet, but not much turns up of him or his show.

22 Sep 2004 (CST)

I know Charlie is a Warner Brothers cartoon dog character. but I did not say he was not involved in it. Many radio stations which are playing many songs from the 1970s have the word, Charlie in there, proves that he was there, can you ask most program directors about this? Someone needs help, but if it fails, I WILL TAKE REVENGE AGAINST HIM AND OTHERS.

User 7:58 (Cst)

Hm...oookay... I don't follow your reasoning. Are you saying because many songs from the 70s happen to have the name "Charlie" in it that they all must refer to this cartoon character of the 40s? Charlie is just a name, it doesn't necessarily refer to the same character. I also don't follow what you mean about revenge...can you elaborate? Also, what is your name and where are you located?

Looks like these three big TV networks are denying they carried the show in the 1970's, or do not remember airing the show. The Wikipedia article on ABC, CBS and NBC didn't all have the title, listed. and I also looked through a list of other TV networks, nothing turned up in their schedule. But, I will still find the title.

User (12:41)

[edit] Infobox

Could you please add a bit more info to the infobox? I am not much into disco. I simply added one because other genres have it. Andros 1337 22:34, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The colors in the info box hurt me. --ZekeMacNeil 23:36, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

I second that emotion. Wahkeenah 23:44, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Possible opinionated article portion(s)...

Quote:

"At the time, Gay Americans were just beginning to celebrate their identity instead of having to hide in shame, and nightclubs frequented by largely Gay crowds could, at last, operate in the open."

Note capitalization of "Gay," "celebrate their identity," "hiding in shame," "nightclubs frequented by largely gay crowds could, at last, operate in the open."

The way these statements in the article are written shows opinionated writing directed at those who don't support homosexual lifestyles and some who may have (or do) oppressed gays for whatever reasons they may have (had). Despite any opinions I or others might have for or against homosexual lifestyles and habits, the article, as with the rest of Wikimedia, remain completely unopinionated.

First, Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks.

Second, you should read the policy regarding opinions: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Hyacinth 01:06, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The trouble with this interpretation of NPOV is that prior to the riot at Stonewall in New York City in 1968, gay men and lesbians literally had no language in which to name themselves and narrate their lives. Liberace, for example, had to speak on camera to Ed Murrow as if he, as a successful star, was in search in 1954 for a wife, and nearly blew it when he referred to Princess Margaret as being engaged in the same hunt (this incident is amusingly recreated in George Clooney's recent film Good Night and Good Luck). Tough girls had to call themselves "tomboys" at best.

The game was played through language and by 1968, American gay men wanted a name. If those boys cannot call themselves capital G gay, then there is no "neutral" alternative, only a return to silence and lies. Sure, they could lower the case of the g, but then we'd lose a perfectly adequate word for feeling happy with a certain lightness, as in early spring.

If a Gay man cannot say that he used to "hide in shame", then literally he cannot narrate what was going on. Nor could you narrate the history of Disco meaningfully, without sounding like some sweet old Granny who visits San Francisco circa 1978 and sees all those nice young men, with such gracious manners, who like to dance to that rock music.

I'm not Gay: only happy now and then. But NPOV should not be a weapon to force us all to speak in a language in which "that vice which has no name" is shameful ... because it has no name. Spinoza1111 05:26, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I've read the policy. I don't think you even understood what I was saying. It is NPOV terrorism to scan a contribution for the use of keywords and on the basis of these keywords declare it non-NPOV.

NPOV doesn't mean "not giving offense to some Christian fundamentalist" by using for example "gay" to mean homosexual. Because if it does, then the Christian fundamentalist POV is hegemonic. Spinoza1111 12:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Who are you talking to? I attempted to format your posts. I moved your post made after my above post from above to below it, and indented it as if it was a reply to the anonymous post above mine (which my post is also reply to). I then indented your post below my post as if it where a reply to that post. Is this correct? I didn't know how to indent the post below since I don't know if it is a reply and if so to who. Hyacinth 10:05, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I recommend checking out some of the comments in a recent Salon letters about an article on disco [1]. This seemed to be quite insightful about the backlash. -- LGagnon 20:49, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Eagle Disco Hit?

I really like the listing of the non-disco artists and delved into Disco, but I'd like to know what Eagles song is considered to be Disco to be considered in this category? I'm thinking either The Disco Strangler, but that some really doesn't have much of a beat. One Of These Nights could be considered as well, but that was a little pre-disco, although it has the beat.

I agree that "One of the These Nights" is the closest approach to disco, but I think not close enough. Someone should remove them from the list.

--Albalb 23:03, 14 June 2006

[edit] French Defintion just as accurate in English?

I think this article uses the definition of disco to refer to a style of music too much. Gays are also mentioned too early in the article, as disco music is enjoyed by many. I agree with the above comment entitled "Europe". Maybe this is a US-based definiton, but certainly in the UK a disco / discotheque is a place that you go to dance to music, as well as disco being a style of music (if not more so the former, however terms such as "clubbing" are also popular at present).

First, please wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks.

Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias does require us to avoid a US-centric view, and I agree that this article, like virtually all articles, has US POV issues.

However, I think the article currently takes a historical look at disco. I know of no contemporary music notably described as disco or considered in the disco genre. Do you have a source to indicate such a music?

Most music genre articles indicate demographic origins in the introduction, I see no reason why disco should be different. The blues and soul are both enjoyed by many people, including Europeans and European-Americans, but they originated in African-American communities as stated in the introduction to those articles. Hyacinth 03:23, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Radio stations

I have started a section in this article about radio play of disco music. It also is for anyone who is listing radio shows or stations that play a good amount of this music.

Also, we need some information about disco on the radio in its heyday and nowadays in all countries, especially US, UK, Europe, Australia, New Zealand. --SimonMackay 09:24, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "I Love the 70s" didn't mention it

It was on "VH1", they did not mention the "bogus" cartoon series in 1974, no one have heard of it. Oh well, check the facts.

[edit] Disco in Australia and New Zealand

We will need to add some reference to disco in Australia and New Zealand. We will need to know the reaction to disco in this country such as radio and TV shows that had it as a theme, the "gay disco" mindset through the area where it is associated with the Australian gay scene, the mid-90s "disco revival" with "Priscilla, Queen Of The Desert", as well as local disco talent. It is also worth knowing how Australian radio reacted to disco - whether it was caught up in the "rock vs disco" war or not.

As far as disco on TV is concerned, it may be worth getting further info about a disco-dancing competition that was hosted on [[ABC-TV]'s "Countdown" during 1978.

--SimonMackay 09:47, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dancepunk

Is anyone here hip enough to write about the obvious disco = dancepunk sentiment?

Try Dancepunk. Secretlondon 10:01, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Natural progression" to house

I have removed the sentence about how house music is a "natural progression" of disco, because it is neither sourced nor attributed. Unless you can provide a source for this information, or unless you can provide a quote to that effect, please do not restore that sentence. - jredmond 18:21, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

You guys, many people, including the house pioneers (Larry Levan, etc.), consider house/garage just to be contemporary or updated disco. Several people point to Donna Summer's seminal "I Feel Love" as the first house music record. This was one of the factors in which the voters had the song placed on Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Rock Songs (Musicluv 03:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Abba image

I removed it. It is not appropriate here. While Abba had a few disco hits, they were hardly definitively disco artistes, and the inclusion of the image here seems to be simply because someone wanted to add something and this was the best they could come up with. Please stay focused on what the article is about, and don't add cruft for the sake of it. Graham 00:45, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

The Radio section seems to be US specific - eg Kiss 100 in the UK. Also generally disco doesn't equal dance music. Disco is a type of dance music. Secretlondon 10:05, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] ABBA

I dispute the fact that ABBA were even disco at all. Disco was a serious form of music. ABBA were not. They were not proper Disco at all. The lack of inclusion of Larry Levan is also quite appaling here. It seems that the people who have writen this article know very little about proper disco at all.

It's one of those debates again. Surely some of their songs were disco-influenced to say at least. Some people back then considered some of their songs disco while others didn't. IMO, I think something like "Gimme" can pass as disco or even the R&B-poppish "Dancing Queen." Again, it's the same issue with funk songs (e.g. James Brown's "Get Up Offa That Thing") and even songs from Kraftwerk ("Trans-Europe Express").--Musicluv 03:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

It is that perception thing again. In the 70's ABBA were considered pop/bubblegum. But today there is not to many disco revival nights,compilations etc where "Dancing Queen" is not among the most popular songs. As far as disco being a serious form of music my perception is that in part disco was a reaction against the serious progressive rock(Genisis,Emerson Lake and Palmer etc) of the era 02:40, 8 August 2006 (Ed Kollin)

[edit] Ones Discotheque

Ones discotheque located at 111 Hudson Street, NY, NY was around from the early-'70s to 1982. It had a great run. The owners also owned the Celebrity Club in Harlem on 125th Street for a period of time. The club was very well-known for the celebrities who patronized the place in the early-'70s. One was only opened on Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. Tuesday was famous for Reggae night where Bob Marley and other popular groups played.

Every Saturday afternoon, Ones hosted "Disco Tot," the first-ever disco for children and their parents. Parents brought their children to dance and eat hot dogs, sit at the bar, and dance under the neon lights!

As far as popularity goes, Ones was voted by Vogue magazine as one of the top 10 discos in the world. Ones frequently swapped customers in the downtown club scene between Area, the Garage, the Loft, and Bonds a bit further uptown.

[edit] Some interesting little-known facts about Ones-

Ones manufactured all its own neon lights in the basement of the club. Ones owned Celebrity Club on 125th street for a period of time. Ones had one of longest freestanding wooden bars in the city at over 90ft. Ones owned Annie Oakleys resturant on the East Side. Ones won many legal battles over the tenants of the building, who tried to get the club closed. Ones was there before lofts became trendy. Ones had a disco taxi; do you remember it red with sliver glittered letters?

In its later years, many famous acts played at Ones: Madonna, Fat Boys, Sugar Hill Gang, Stephanie Mills, Tito Puente, and Bob Marley all appeared at Ones. Hector Camacho used to frequent the club in its later years, too.

The club had a good long run throught the height of the disco era. Last time I checked, the location where Ones was is now a food market.--Markz29 02:41, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation, please

There is also an album by the Pet Shop Boys, called Disco: Disco (album)

[edit] New Perspective on the evolution past disco

Just remembering the changes of music through the 80's, and discussing it with people I know (and also listening to cable's "Music Choice Showcase" channel "Classic Disco" program lately), I felt the article would be improved with a more detailed account of the progression of how synthesizers changed the genre. Also, noticeable, but seemingly not recognized is the distinction between the more "mainstream" 'white' disco style, and the more "street" 'black' disco style. As I've pointed out, the more mainstream style was rooted in more standard musical production techniques, while the more black style was more rooted in black music. These both for the most part evolved in different directions as the music changed, and this helps understand just what happened to "disco" in the 80's. (Especially, since I see there was a dispute regarding how "house" music" came out of disco).

I hope adding "black" and "white" "race" language poses no problem. But for lack of better terminology, those were the unofficial "strains" of disco music. In fact, I read on one account of the "death of disco" that there was even a black negative sentiment against certain aspects of disco (such as the effeminacy, as well as the more "European" style musical principles of mainstream disco), at the same time as rock's anti-disco sentiment!

But clearly, the progression was gradual but definite, as synthesizers were added to the music. It was like the old illustration of the frog in the pot of water set to boil. You didn't notice or think much of it at first, but then eventually, you look up, and realize that this is no longer "disco' you are dancing to anymore.

I also think the anti-disco movement is (rather triumphalistically) taking a bit too much credit for their "Disco Demolition Night" and "Disco Sucks" statements ending disco. It may have helped end the mainstream elements, such as the style of clothing and other effeminate aspects of it. But then that too largely burned itself out with the drugs and spread of AIDS, as we saw in documentaries like "The Last Days of Disco". And there WAS a large racist sentiment to it as well. In my high school experience, the same kids wishing death to disco were the same ones telling blacks "Go To Atanta!" in 1981 when black kids were disappearing there. I remember one walked around once singing under his breath "unga bunga unga bunga, N----- music!" I see that it being claimed that it was the Punk movememnt that waged the war on disco, but the kids I witnessed saw even "punk" or "new wave" as too close to black music! (after all, you had Queen's "Another One Bites the Dust", and even Pink Floyd's "Another Brick in the Wall" and Devo had sounds I found listenable, meaning they were more rhythmic like black music, rather than just blaring metal). These kids were more into the "hard" rock like KISS (before that "disco" song they did), Led Zeppelin, Van Halen, earlier Pink Floyd, etc. But clearly, it was the change of music production techniques that changed the style.Eric B 19:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Limited geographic scope

I removed the Template:limitedgeographicscope as there is no discussion of how on this talk page. Hyacinth 13:57, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

How is the article limited in geographic scope? Hyacinth 08:39, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dr. philharmonic's edit

That was a great restructuring of the material I added. I was basically trying to bring out some little known details about the differences in the styles and the gradual change in the early 80's. I apologize if it came across as "nonfactual information and personal, biased definitions", but it was kind of hard to articulate exactly what I was trying to say. I even edited several times to try to clarify and improve it. Your breaking it down into "regional" styles basically covers my points (which I genralized as a "black" and "white" or "street" and "mainstream" style, for lack of etter terminology, again). It is obvious that the "disco" of Chic is different from the "disco" of the Bee Gees, and that was what I was trying to convey. I had intended for people to take the points I had made and improve upon them. I do wonder what exactly you considered to be "illogicalities and contradictions", though.

I did put back a few of my original points. For instance, you focus almost entirely on orchestration as making the difference between the 70's and early 80's, and while that was a big part of it, it ignores the slight chordal changes which changed the sound even more. Some 70's songs did not have orchestration, but still sound like disco, while some 80's songs did have orchestration, but still sounded different, so it is more than just that. So it seems to me a triple effect: less orchestration, synthesized bass and other sounds, and more jazzy or bluesy chords. Even though this may not be something widely acknowledged, I think if one listens to the songs from that period, they would see it is not just a "biased nonfactual definition". It's about the sound.

Some highlights of what I added, with explanations:

Much of this was influenced by some of the great R & B and jazz musicians of the 70's, such as Stevie Wonder and Herbie Hancock. This further changed the overall sound

The fact that these artists (and others like them, who were not "disco") greatly influenced the 80's is wellknown.

but by this time, the word "disco" became associated with anything danceable, that played in discothèques, so the music continued for a time to be called "disco" by many.

I was addressing the fact that people then and today, consider the 80's tracks in question "disco" (you can look at any online "disco record" list, including the one you linked to), even though, as I had said earlier, these songs "were about as different from the disco of the 70's as the "pre-disco" songs mentioned above were".

Also, the connection between Planet Rock and the later House/techno is also a well accepted point. So that should be left in as well. If it can be worded better, then improve it, or even mention that it is disputable if you think so, but it should be mentioned.

Eric B 03:54, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

While stuff is being deleted as "nonpertinent and nonacademic", more and more material is being added about orchestration. (it occupies a sizeable chunk of the page now, and the page is starting to get too big). See also bold point in above post, regarding the inconsistency of making the difference orchestration only. I'll have to find some examples when I get a chance.Eric B 03:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contradict

I removed Template:contradict as there is no discussion on this talk page. How does the section Disco#Popular disco artists contradict itself or another section? Hyacinth 08:39, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disco Orchestration

As a doctor, medical researcher, and educator in the fields of neuroscience, specializing in the brain, nutrition, endocrinology, linguistics, and mathematics, I approach the analysis of music in the same manner as I do in all of the aforementioned disciplines.

The reason why such a great emphasis is placed on the orchestration of disco is because disco is predicated on orchestration, that is, not just orchestration of the elements of the symphony orchestra, but orchestration of all the elements of the production, which is why the engineers played such a paramount role in the production process, whose ear for music composition and continuity imbued each production with its artistic integrity. So, as most precepts do have exceptions, as in there existing just some disco productions lacking in orchestration, the preeminent, predominant wealth of disco material, just by virtue of its birth and development, is symphony-orchestrated.

We can see that, as the swing era of the 1930s was spawned by the jazz era of the 1920s, with swing an uptempo, danceable, orchestrated form of jazz, the disco era of the 1970s grew from the world beat of the 1960s. And, as such, as swing is a form of dance music, so, too, disco is a form of dance music; but, as dance music of the big-band era of the 1940s is not swing, so, too, dance music of the 1980s is not disco, whatever one considers. So, as one can find a swing song that is not orchestrated in the typical swing manner, one can find a disco song that is not orchestrated in the typical disco manner, but orchestrated nonetheless. Therefore, a musical production sung by two black women over a danceable beat does not a disco song make, as in The Weather Girls' It's Raining Men, whatever one considers it to be, or be like. As with the example of Patrice Rushen on the Disco page, one should analyze the work of a couple of years earlier by Martha Wash and Izora Rhodes (in the '80s, The Weather Girls) as background to Sylvester's Can't Stop Dancing (1979), arranged, produced, and conducted by Harvey Fuqua and Sylvester, with specific sectional stylings of Nathin Rubin, concertmaster of the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra, wherein, their vocals build, break, and interweave through the song, sometimes as lead, sometimes as background, in harmonious interplay with all the other elements of the song as if a section of the orchestra itself. In contrast, however, like Patrice Rushen's Forget-Me-Nots, It's Raining Men is a diluted marasmus of a melody that with neither orchestration nor intricate composition is closer to gospel and R&B than anything else. Further, there is a vast difference between disco, the music genre, which, like swing, is highly specific, and disco, the category in music catalogs and record stores, which use disco as a generic term for dance-club music, of which writers on the subject of disco SHOULD be knowledgeable, as with ALL the information on which I am writing.

The disheartening element in many discussions of disco is the filtering of the whole disco movement and its artistic and intellectual energy down to various groups such as The Bee Gees and ABBA, which were never disco groups but R&B and pop, respectively. It is the case that the Gibb Brothers themselves were surprised at the success of numerous productions of theirs on the disco charts, for their songs - Night Fever, Stayin' Alive, You Should Be Dancing - are R&B. Although many of their productions were arranged, produced, and orchestrated by Maurice Gibb and Barry Gibb, together with Albhy Galuten and Karl Richardson, with the specific stylings of concertmaster Sid Sharp of the Los Angeles Symphony Orchestra, they were not necessarily disco just by virtue of their being a product of the 1970s, and danceable. The same situation occurred with Alicia Bridges when I Love the Nightlife hit the disco charts, who was also "surprised." Further, a wanton slap in the face is the effect of discussing such groups and individuals in the presence of the wealth of artists, arrangers, producers, orchestra conductors, concertmasters, orchestra players some of whose names are here and here and here and here and here and here, right in the very pages of Wikipedia for public display, in whose talented hands were held the pens responsible for the melodic masterpieces of borne of history's most artistic and intellectual timeperiod.

Further, many artists and producers of other genres saw their opportunity to cash in on the success of disco. Yet, it just must be accepted that many people do not possess the intellectual acuity to undertake such monumental tasks as composing the massive orchestrations for the distinct sections of the symphony orchestra and tailoring musical theory around exciting listeners and dancers with multiple bridges and refrains woven together within a fantastic philharmonic fabric. As a result, there were many endeavors that were disco-influenced, as in The Rolling Stones, The Grateful Dead, etc., but not disco, whatever one considers them to be. As a result, many forms emerged: disco-influenced rock, disco-influenced-R&B, disco-influenced soul, disco-influenced country. It can be demonstrated through innumerable examples throughout history that what one CONSIDERS to be the case is not necessarily the same as what IS the case. For example, it was discovered several years ago that each taste bud on the human tongue possesses many sensory areas with the capability of detecting - at this point, still - an uncountable number of different taste sensations. However, in many schools throughout the U.S., the former interpretation on the study of the tongue is still being taught - that the human tongue contains four distinct regions for detecting "the four different taste sensations - sweet, salty, sour, bitter," with educators still using textbooks containing such material, all because some consider - ERRONEOUSLY - the human tongue to have only four - and isolated - areas for distinguishing taste sensations. And, not very long ago, for thousands of years, sickness and disease were considered to be a result of the wrath of the gods, to whom a cure was beseeched through scores of citizens who gave up their still-beating hearts on the sacrificial altar, until micro-organisms like bacteria, viruses, and protozoa were discovered. And how many people were beheaded as heretics for opposing the people that considered the earth to be flat, and that the universe revolves around Earth.

And, as it is not just a beat, it is not just orchestration that presupposes a disco song; and therein lies the beauty of the 1970s, for every genre of music was blessed with the newfound talent of educated musicians who contracted their local symphony and philharmonic orchestras: One only need confer the tens of thousands of music releases in the genres of rock, country, and soul groups of the 1970s to aver the claim. The magnanimous phenomenon of the 1970s is that this educated perspective occurred on all fronts, and within all the arts. Remember that, during the several years before the 1970s, American adults were entertained by witches, genies, a martian, a flying nun, and a man whose mother was a car. Something monumental occurred at the threshold between the 1960s and the 1970s, as if endowing humanity with a knowledge not even imagined beforehand. A subject for great philosophical discussion is one centered on the theories concerning the events that jolted the American intellect from being entertained by Hogan's Heros in the 1960s to even understanding - never mind embracing - M*A*S*H of the 1970s, and, in like manner, from Get Smart in the 1960s to Columbo in the 1970s, from Petticoat Junction in the 1960s to The Mary Tyler Moore Show in the 1970s, from Green Acres in the 1960s to Maude in the 1970s; and the list goes on and on. And, by parallel, the same intellectual realism and artistic blossoming occurred in film, which, in the 1960s, was a hideous embarrassment of clown makeup and clothing and hairstyles, with cartoon colors and intellect-bereft scripts, which gave way to an intellectual realism and artistic blossoming during the 1970s, as in The Godfather, Kramer vs. Kramer, Rocky, Star Wars, The Black Stallion, which could not even have been conceived through the stultified mood of the 1950s and 1960s.

So it has become imperative for me to illustrate for people the whys and hows along with the details of the great intellectual and cultural movement that occurred during the 1970s. With disco at the forefront, the 1970s not only brought the world's symphony and philharmonic orchestras back into the mainstream of popular culture for the first time in three decades but also enabled for the first time in the entire fashion industry clothing designers around the world - Fiorucci, Ives St. Laurent, Gucci, to name a few - showcase their talents in palatially-designed dancehalls, where the world's youth - imagine, aspiring to be adults - also for the first time in three decades actually dressed up in tuxedos and silk gowns to be inspired by highly-orchestrated designer music, which in turn inspired them, yes, to play instruments and to conduct symphony orchestras - in their twenties, no less. Imagine a time that was able to transform lowly dungarees into designer jeans: Sergio Valente, Pierre Cardin, Jordache, Sasson, Calvin Klein, etc.

Within Wikipedia, we have opportunity to educate those that want to know on the history of disco - any topic, for that matter - without emotional tainting, and with a strict adherence to the facts, with academic delivery, the very things that are not only lacking but, many times, absent in "encyclopedias." The decade of the 1970s is not yet even 30 years old; and, yet, if there exist people that can actually regard a whole decade - with its treasure-trove of tens of thousands of symphony-orchestrated musical masterpieces - as a time epitomized by The Bee Gees, ABBA, and the Village People, we have some serious educating to perform, a task that I do not take lightly, which is the reason for the great investment of time that I have devoted to the various topics of Wikipedia, down to this talk item.

Of equal importance, moreover, is the discussion centered on how tens of thousands of symphony-orchestrated melodic masterpieces were able to be wiped clean from the memory of mainstream culture, leaving The Bee Gees, ABBA, and The Village People as the fossils in the archaeological remains of a timeperiod less than 30 years old. Drphilharmonic 15:21, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

• Richly orchestrated forms of disco are, of course, crucial to any discussion on disco in a general reference article, and you make a good point that disco should not be narrowed down to a discussion of only the hits and only the most popular artists. However, it is only your POV that 1980s dance music can never be considered disco. I assume that you "Dr. Philharmonic" are Dr. Rob himself, given your repeated references to his old archives (which aren't even searchable in Google), your similar emphasis on symphonies ("The Grand Symphony-Orchestra Sound of the D I S C O Era 1974 - 1979"), your similar references to specific television shows like Green Acres, etc., your repeated use of bold and italics, and your POV which is compatible with Dr. Rob's claim that disco ended precisely on "December 31, 1979". You cannot enforce your narrow POV in this article. I address the diversity in disco sounds which began even the mid-1970s at my categorization essay A Diversity of Sounds in Disco Music. It should also be noted that there are plenty of examples of orchestrated disco (violin and viola players, etc.) from the early 1980s and even from later decades. However, I agree that very electronic songs like "It's Raining Men" by the Weather Girls are not true disco. - KAB, 25 February 2006

• I also agree that disco should not be narrowed down to only the hits. But the Bee Gees not disco, but only R&B? Night Fever not disco? I'm sorry, but that is stretching it way too far, and I too think this is somewhat your own POV. (I would agree that a song like "I Will Be Your Everything" is R&B, even though it is frequently played on the Music Choice Showcase "Disco" program!)

To say that disco brought back orchestration? I don't know, because I see plenty of it in the 1960's, with the later Motown sound. Earlier records I notice (Shop Around, etc) didn't have it, I notice, but I think that may have been more about money. As they (and other black music production) gained more money, they were able to add orchestration. By the beginning of the 70's almost all R&B was orchestrated, as well as adult contemporary, easy listening, or whatever they were called then. I guess it was rock that had largely ditched orchestration, so it seemed to disappear, and then reappear in the 70's pop culture with disco. But surely while orchestration is is an integral part of the original disco sound, disco is primarily about rhythm. (You would think we were talking about classical, here!) Bee Gees hits like "Stayin' Alive" and "Night Fever" has the perennial classic disco rhythm (with the cymbals on every other inbetween eighth note), as well as your orchestra, and while this may have been a typical overcommercialized pop hit, and there may be many other more musically rich disco songs, this cannot be dismissed as genuine disco. (My point of the difference between "mainstream" and "black" disco was precisely to move the focus beyond just "the Gee Gees, ABBA and the Village People", as you complained).

As for the 80's, I also do not consider much of the dance songs (D Train, Kashif, Shalamar and even the Whispers hits) to be disco. My whole point in the paragraph you keep deleting is that it is considered disco by its fans, and many sources (Music Choice, online record for sale lists, etc), --whether it really is or not; though harmonically, it's structure is different, and is really an evolution from disco. This would include songs like Patrice Rushen's "Haven't You Heard", which you consider "disco" purely because of the orchestra. Others consider it disco because of the rhythm, and it played in discos. But it is so jazzy, it is light years away from classic disco. It is basically the same style of music as "Forget Me Nots", which you do not consider disco because of the lack of orchestration. The latter is simply a slightly more updated production, with the acoustic piano replaced with a Fender Rhodes (electric piano), primarily. Basically, the "one man band" keyboard-oriented sound. As it was people like Stevie Wonder and Herbie Hancock who had earlier pioneered this technique, (as well as the greater harmonic structure the keyboards produced) that sound would become more popular, as these artists were copied from, (and yes, this was now R&B, and it was conveniently cost-saving); and that was a very important point I was adding regarding the '81-83 period. You even touched upon this by stating:

not just orchestration of the elements of the symphony orchestra, but orchestration of all the elements of the production, which is why the engineers played such a paramount role in the production process, whose ear for music composition and continuity imbued each production with its artistic integrity.

That was my point. even the "one man band' sound of the 80's was engineered (maybe not as well, but nevertheless), and this change of engineering style as an evolution of dance music deserved mention.

So I would agree that most of that is not pure disco. Some of it, like Cheryl Lynn's "Shake it Up Tonight" seems like a hybrid song. Its bass line and orchestration make it sound more like genuine disco, but there are other factors, especially the chordal structure, that makr it different. Realizing that some of this may be my own POV, I tried to give the benefit of the doubt, and say it was "semi-disco". "Last Night A DJ Saved My Life" is basically an extension of what I had called the "black disco sound", in the vein of Chic and Sister Sledge. "It's Raining Men" seems to have the more acoustic feel of "mainstream" disco (doesn't it have a little orchestra in there too?), but but the rhythm was by that time associated with "the 80's sound". (And yes, it is gospel influenced as well, and that would be the vocals.) I would say the last songs that could be called "disco" in any shape or form are Jocelyn Brown's "Somebody Else's Guy", and Evelyn Thomas' "High Energy". (Yes, that one is purely electronic, but the bassline, as synth. as it is, is still the classic sound).

One thing you all should realize is that the line between these styles is fuzzy. The standard 4/4 backbeat is called "the rock beat", and would encompass ALL of these modern styles, including disco! But we don't consider it all rock. (Old religious conservative types who say rock is from the devil, do, though). This is not an exact science, like medicine; it is an invisble classification that is more relative.

As for the tangent about TV shows and stuff from the 60's vs. the 70's, all of that was shaped by the cultural turmoil of the period, basically the "end of the so-called "age of innocence" of America; with the war, and rebellion against that and the old time cultural mores, and the sexual revolution, civil rights struggle, etc. So we went from "utopian "Father Knows Best" stuff to more serious themes, both on the screen as well as in music. Part of that may have been the ditching of orchestras by rock and funk artists. Eric B 15:02, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

• As an orchestra conductor and music composer during the 1970s, I can attest to the unprecedented energy of the 1970s; I was present to witness the scores of orchestra members that literally ran from recording studio to recording studio in order to produce commercial jingles, television theme songs, movie scores, and the massive disco productions, which required sometimes over 50 different sessions for recording the distinct elements of just one song...Maestro-conductor 15:41, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

• Having been in the recording industry in the mid-'70s to the early-'80s, in the West U.S., for studios like Studio Sound, The Producer's Workshop, Kendun, just to name a few, I would work on 40 to 50 reels of tracks containing woodwinds sections, strings sections, horns sections, several rhythms and vocals. At the end of a 14-hour day, I would complete just the bridge of a song; then on the next day I would work on a similar number of tracks for the various sections of the orchestra and vocals for the verses, and so on until completing the final edits of this one song at the end of the week. The whole process came to mind when I saw Evelyn Thomas' "My Head's in the Stars" in the "Disco" page, as an example of the great amount of work that went into one song in the 1970s. "My Head's in the Star's" was a typical example of the "hybrids" that we as a group of engineers worked on: 100+ tracks coming from London, direct from the London Symphony Orchestra, 100+ tracks coming from Chicago, direct fro the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, all assembled into a unified composition in Los Angeles to the final product. But this does not even speak of the process before the tracks arrived at our studios for assembling and mixing. The job of the recording engineers required painstaking methods of sometimes setting up whole recording studios at the site of the symphony, or bringing in separate sections of the symphony, say not even the whole string section, but just the double-basses, to our "acoustic halls" for many sessions to record the introduction, verses, various bridges, various builds, the different refrains, etc., then the same for the violas, the violins, the trombones, the french horns, and so on. So, just by my description, one can get an idea as to the complicated process, and, yes, even more complicated than "classical" music. More than it was draining, however, it was stimulating, because we as recording and mixing engineers got to exercise our music training, too, and worked tightly with the arrangers and producers, who sometimes gave us the chance to experiment with our own ideas on how we would like to hear, for example, one of the builds with the flugelhorns and piccolos emphasized, or a wild build of violins with a crescendo of bassoons. Then, when the music industry changed and "disco departments" and "black music departments" in the major record labels like Columbia, Atlantic, MCA, and even whole record labels, dissolved in 1980, many of us lost our livelihoods. Some studios closed altogether, but some that managed to keep going went from a staff of 30 or 40 to 5 or 6. We did some big recordings into 1981 and 1982 for people like Barry White and a few others that hung on to their musical integrity, but the process was watered-down, simplfied. The energy died. Ben-gineer 16:49, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

• A book entitled "Disco" by Albert Goldman is one that offers support to everything the educators stated, which can be acquired online through book services and sometimes at online auctions, as well as in libraries; there are many other publications, as well. Another big resource is in flea markets, tag sales, and record conventions; I suggest for anyone that really wants to learn to buy as many records from the 1970s as possible and review the covers. One will see hundreds of the names that are referred to, such as mine (I was a recording engineer in nyc during the '70s). Many records actually listed as credits the names of each individual orchestra member and each specialty engineer, but some were sparing, so look for terms such as "concertmaster," which will guide you on which orchestra was used, "contracted by," as in "strings contracted by..." and "horns contracted by..." which will also be a guide as to which orchestra. "Contracted by Art Kaplan" means that the orchestra is the New York Philharmonic Orchestra, with usually Gene Orloff as concertmaster. And, most of all, use your own ears. Listen to the many layers of instruments, which gives that multilayered, rich sound. Please do justice to my, our, work and be open-minded. Learn as much as you can by studying the records themselves. Nyc-e 17:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nice Touch: "Disco Orchestration" page

The page entitled "Disco Orchestrations" is a nice addition to the "Disco" page, and one that will be valuable to readers engaged in the topic of disco. I would like to thank contributors KAB and Eric B for their efforts in working toward this solution. It is unfortunate that so much hostility was exchanged among people whose passion is a love of something, in this case music. I am a social scientist who has been an editorial and content contributor to many encyclopedias and publications, as well as Wikipedia, not only in music, including classical, but in many topics in the social and political arenas for many years. It is a bit hurtful to be labeled as someone else simply because of similar "styles." Let us continue to "orchestrate" our work in a "harmonious" manner so that readers are impressed by our "symphony" of knowledge. Pol-Sci-Prof 17:09, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

What is the difference between both classical and --- disco? --65.54.154.151 07:06, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

• You are not allowed to remove people's valid comments from Talk! I was a big fan of yours for years, until your schizophrenic vandalism this week. The following comments of mine from 28 February 2006, which you improperly deleted because it disproves your POV, are directly in response to your point about symphonies: -- People can hear just how disco they [many disco songs of 1980] are by listening to the licensed store samples linked from 1980 Disco. For instance, Carol Williams' pure disco song "Take Your Time" (1980) is contained at the original WP list at List of disco artists but was omitted by your A-K trimmed version at List of disco artists (A-K). [started on 19 December 2005 by you, Drphilharmonic] ... Pure disco tracks from later years include "So Good So Right" by Talisman featuring Oliver Cheatham (2000), "Cosmic Girl" (1996), and "New Kind of Medicine" by Sheila Ferguson (2004). I have lists of some contemporary violin, viola, and cello players on disco songs at my page 2000-2003 Disco in the sub-section "The Return of Real Strings to Dance Music". The last time I checked, this article is entitled "Disco", not "1970s Disco", not "Disco Era". -- You claim to be a contributor to encyclopedias, under what name and which specific encyclopedias? Or is your statement another lie? I, KAB, am the author of "Disco" article in the forthcoming Postwar America: An Encyclopedia of Social, Political, Cultural, and Economic History from M.E. Sharpe. - KAB, 1 March 2006

[edit] To Dr. Philharmonic's erronous assertion

There are several things wrong about the doc's article.

"the disco era of the 1970s grew from the world beat of the 1960s."

First of all, the disco era grew from the discotheques of the 60s, from Motown, from soul, etc. Dance crazes such as the twist launched by rock legend Chubby Checker (who covered it from rock legend Hank Ballard) were more significant than whatever you call "world beat". Funk music alone squashes "world beat".

""The disheartening element in many discussions of disco is the filtering of the whole disco movement and its artistic and intellectual energy down to various groups such as The Bee Gees and ABBA, which were never disco groups but R&B and pop, respectively."""

The Bee Gees did disco, R&B, pop, rock...Your point? "You Should Be..." and "Night Fever...." ARE disco songs, and I'm pretty sure they'd tell you that themselves (obviously, have you checked Saturday Night Fever?)

"""As a result, there were many endeavors that were disco-influenced, as in The Rolling Stones, The Grateful Dead, etc., but not disco, whatever one considers them to be. As a result, many forms emerged: disco-influenced rock, disco-influenced-R&B, disco-influenced soul, disco-influenced country."""

They did disco songs, and they will tell you themselves. I guess we should start labeling every Motown record "soul-influenced pop" or every rock genre that came from the 50s "50s-influenced rock", "Chuck Berry-Elvis-Little Richard influenced rock".

There was orchestration being used in Philadelphia Soul which played a tremendous role in the shaping of disco (ever hear of the Delfonics in the late 60s?) Gamble and Huff are seminal producers, noted in the rock n roll hall of fame. Some of the first disco songs came from these "little symphonies", "Phil Spector-influenced" music.

Many point to the syncopated "Soul Makossa" as the first disco record.

Disco did not "die" in the 80s. It's last great year was around 1983, just as New Wave and electro exploded and peaked. Even Italo-Disco peaked that year which was born in the late 70s.

Disco's influence is tremendous musically and culturally - from virtually any dance genre to come out ever since.--Musicluv 03:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disco Era

I disagree strongly with articles contention that the Disco Era began with the release of Saturday Night Fever in 1977 and mildly with the contention it ended in 1980. I believe the Disco Era began in the Summer of 1974 when both Hughes Corporation‘s “Rock the Boat” hit number one on the charts followed by George McRae’s “Rock Your Baby”. A good case could be made that it began a year later with the release of “The Hustle”. After that song the term “disco” came into popular use. Of course Saturday Night Fever took things to a whole new level. Kudos to the article for mentioning Frank Zappa’s “Dancing Fool” in the discussion of the backlash. Most articles stop at “Disco Demolition Night”. It was the combination of “Dancing Fool” staying at #1 for 4 weeks in May 1979 and the Disco Demolition Night in July that played a major part in ending the popularity of this genre of music. The article is correct in that disco music was in the occasionally in the charts until 1980. However before “Disco Demolition Night” the genre dominated the charts. Immediately after only a minority of songs in the charts were disco. 5:00, March 9 2006

[edit] The Transitionary Period of the Early 1980's

A couple of points here. The article does not show how in disrepute disco was in this period. Nobody would dare use the word. The emergence of AIDS seemed to confirm how evil the disco lifestyle was. New Wave music at the peak of it’s popularity was the opposite of disco in many ways both musically and fashion wise. A big New Wave hit at the time was Billy Idol’s “Dancing with myself “. Its meaning was misinterpreted at the time in two different ways. Due to the nature of the video many thought it was about being a lone survivor after a nuclear holocaust. Others thought of it as a statement of punk individuality. A few years ago Idol in an interview I read said the song was about the demise of the disco scene something that might have been career suicide to reveal at the time. The other point is the article does not mention how important the music for the movie “Flashdance” was in the transition from disco to “dance” music. Many of the songs from the movie were big hits. Songs like “Maniac” speeded up the disco beat to take into account New Wave and took all those strings out. And if you think about it “Flashdance” and “Saturday Night Fever” are basically the same movie. 5:50, 9 March 2006 (EK)

[edit] House/Techno Clarification

I think it would be wise to note that house and techno are not the same thing. Techno came along a couple years after house music (originally was called "the new dance sound of detroit") and is much more stripped down and minimal. Neither are subgenres of one another. They stand as separate but closely related entities. Both took influence from disco, and that needs to be understood, but the section covering this doesn't do it justice. Planet Rock, for the most part, influenced hip hop and electro, not house music. House music requires a four-on-the-floor rhythm - Planet Rock's drum line was a breakbeat.

[edit] Rock vs Disco

The last paragraph of the Rock vs Disco section has many problems with it. The explanation that white working class males have a dislike of dancing is just not backed up by history. This population group was the backbone of the punk based “pogoing” in late 1970’s London, Slam dancing in early 1980’s U.S.A. and in moshpits everywhere since the early 1990’s. An element of disco music that did appeal to females more then younger males was the Disc Jockeys technique of a slow buildup to a musical climax. The article makes judgments without facts that the organizers of the “Disco Demolition Night” were gay baiting and got in over there heads. This may or may not have been true. Quoting from an ESPN.COM article marking the 25th anniversary of the event [2] The worst thing is people calling Disco Demolition homophobic or racist," says Dahl. "It just wasn't. It's really easy to look at it historically, from this perspective, and attach all those things to it. But we weren't thinking like that." . 3:56, 26 March 2006 (EK)

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_%28music%29#Proto-history:_from_disco_to_house:_late_1960s_to_early_1980s http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Techno_music#Origins

And, if you can glean the NPOV information out of this ultra-POV site; http://www.di.fm/edmguide

Just trying to raise an important point here.Kobresia 03:59, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disco IS Rock

Disco is a part of rock as much as funk, punk, metal, doo wop, and prog are. Don't forget rock n roll's roots, how Alan Freed supplanted rhythm and blues with the term to eradicate the stigma attached to it and for the music to gain mass acceptance (i.e. white mainstream America). That's the essential foundation of rock - to be progessive. Don't sit here and tell me prog and folk-rock (i.e. half rock) are rock but something like disco isn't. This is well noted by countless rock historians such as Dave Marsh and Robert Palmer, from Rolling Stone to the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame.--Musicluv 03:34, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

It is all about perception. It was no accident that the first two number one disco hits had "Rock" in their titles. However I doubt that those burning disco records thought of disco as rock. This does not pertain to only disco. Since you mentioned folk-rock the who in 1965 were angry at Bob Dylan for going "electric" did not think folk music was a sub genre of rock music. Getting to the article your comments have made me realize that the disco vs rock paragraph is not needed. It all fits quite nicely under the "backlash" title. If you can find cites from Dave Marsh etc. it would be a real addition to that section 03:04, 7 August 2006 (Ed Kollin)

Ed, it is not about "perception"; it is what it is. Disco is a subgenre of rock with primary influence from soul and funk music which they themselves came from rhythm and blues/rock. Disco is more like uptempo soul or pop funk, whichever way you want to look at it, although such simple terms will be targeted (what genre label isn't?). Disco's real strong roots lie in the twist crazes of the early 60s spearheaded by Chubby Checker. Discotheques played soul records like Motown, records by Joey Dee & the Starliters, the Archies, Martha & The Vandellas, and even psychedelic funk such as Sly & The Family Stone's seminal "Dance To the Music" as well as other rock dance crazes. And yes, I'm very well aware of classical electronic music. The reason why there was an anti-disco backlash is the result of a number of factors including racism against gays and blacks, the saturation of disco singles on radio and in the market, etc. It is a complex issue. If you look back at articles during that time period, especially from Rolling Stone magazine, those factors are clearly highlighted. The Disco Demilition Night crowd and its DJ are mostly ignorants, straight up, but that is a different story. Most of them didn't even know what rock n roll is, nor its roots. But to be fair, some funk enthusiasts and others from the black community have vilified the genre as well. --Musicluv 03:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The parts in your computer is what it is. Art is a matter of how the individual perceives it. We use labels to fulfill a basic human need to categorize things so that they can be more easily described. As far as the Disco Demolition night crowd I do not think it was ignorance as much as a mob mentality fueled by alcohol and other drugs. And having been 21 years old at the time there I can say were not to many people in any age group who did not have an opinion about rock and roll and disco in 1979. If you can find links to the Rolling Stone articles from that period it would really enhance the article. 01:43, 8 August 2006 (Ed Kollin)

Ed, you are reading "too much" into the matter and missing the point. Disco is a part of rock. Rock n roll is a marketing term to replace the stigma associated with rhythm and blues, and this is where rock and all of its genres splinter from, among other various sources such as pure blues, jazz, etc. Regarding the Disco Demolition crowd, it is a complex issue that involves one or more of the factors highlighted above, among other things. I didn't say they were all racist or stupid or this or that; it is a complex issue that can be broken down. And as much as I hate to say it, rock is a business, not an "art".

Here are some great articles that will enhance this topic:

• Mikal Gilmore “Disco” Rolling Stone April 19, 1979 pg. 54
• Robert Christgau “A Cult Explodes – and a Movement Is Born” Village Voice October 24, 1977 pg. 57
• Abe Peck “Disco! Disco! Disco! Four Critics Address the Musical Question” In These Times, June 6-12, 1979 pg. 20
• David Widgery Beating Time: Riot N Race N Rock N Roll
• Robert Palmer “New Rock from the Suburbs” New York Times September 23, 1984 pg. 23
• Stephen Holden “The Evolution of a Dance Craze” Rolling Stone April 19, 1979 pg. 29
• Tom Smucker “Disco” The Rolling Stone Illustrated History of Rock and Roll pg. 562
• Barbara Graustark “Disco Takes Over” Newsweek April 2, 1979, pg. 59
• James Henke “Record Companies Dancing To a Billion Dollar Tune” Rolling Stone April 19, 1979 pg. 46
• Jay Merritt “Disco Station Number One In New York” Rolling Stone March 22, 1979 pg. 11
• Don McLeese “Anatomy of an Anti-Disco Riot” In These Times August 29-September 4, 1979 pg. 23
• Dave Marsh “The Flip Sides of 1979” Rolling Stone December 27, 1979 pg. 28
• Georgia Christgau “Disco! Disco! Disco! Disco! Four Critics Address the Musical Question” In These Times, June 6-12, 1979, pg. 21

--Musicluv 19:25, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Art and commerce are not mutually exclusive. Chic are considered by most critics as one of the all time greats but they marketed the brand well by associating themselves with Studio 54. Whether in general art and commerce should go together is beyond the scope of this discussion. Technically you are probably correct in that disco is a sub genre of rock and roll. But if I wrote the Wikipidia article about disco the first line would not be “disco is a sub-genre of rock and roll” I would write something along the lines of “disco is a form of dance music that became wildly popular in the middle to late 1970’s and is looked upon with great nostalgia today” People associated disco mainly with dancing then and today they associate it with the carefree garishness of the 1970’s. They generally do not associate it with Chuck Berry, The Beatles, The Sex Pistols, and Nirvana etc. In fact as I started to say in the ABBA thread disco was in part a reaction to the rock trends of the day. That is the “perception” thing you dislike. I will more then grant you that perception is often wrong. That does not make it unimportant 02:10, 9 August 2006 (Ed Kollin)

Ed, most people think rock n roll started with Elvis. Does that make them right?--Musicluv 22:53, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

In a way yes. Racist as it may be rock and roll would be a footnote without Elvis. Getting back to the article I would not say in the overview that disco is a sub-genre of rock. But you can show how disco is a form of rock as a subsection of the Instrumentation section 00:45, 10 August 2006 (Ed Kollin)

[edit] James Brown the "Original Disco Man" and Kraftwerk

It would probably be a good idea if this article had a section on funk music in relation to disco. Funk music played a tremendous role on shaping disco music, from James Brown to Sly to Parliament-Funkadelic, etc. Do remember that many funk artists became hybrid funk-disco acts (e.g. Brass Construction). Also, the serious funk aficionados will tell you that these songs are really funk more than disco:

• Kool & The Gang- Jungle Boogie
• Rose Royce- Car Wash
• Wild Cherry- Play That Funky Music

Also interesting is "Trans-Europe Express" by Kraftwerk that was played in disco clubs and actually placed in the Top 10 playlists in several US cities.

--Musicluv 03:27, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can disco music be slow?

Some DJs/fans back then say that songs such as "Reunited" (Peaches & Herb) and "Love Don't Live Here Anymore" (Rose Royce) were considered disco. Let's not forget "Love's Theme". Again, a small section may be helpful.--Musicluv 03:27, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On the section Disco "spinoffs"

You guys, MCs rapped over reggae, funk, and soul beats, not only disco. Kurtis Blow's "The Breaks" is more like funk as is Teena Marie's "Square Biz".

House music and techno share close roots BUT they're different genres in the electronic kingdom, although there is something called Detroit House which is a hybrid of the two (e.g. Inner City).

"Planet Rock" did indeed play a role in shaping up house and techno music, but it doesn't compete with disco music. "Planet Rock" is more signifcant regarding Latin freestyle music, electro-funk, and Miami Bass.--Musicluv 03:42, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd have to concur, this is totally wrong. Hip-hop started without rapping, DJs (like Kool Herc, Grandmaster Flash, Afrika Bambaata) would spin records and mix the "breaks". That is drum or riff parts with NO vocals. Popular breaks are still around (Drum and Bass is all built around the Amen Brother drum break, which is NOT disco). In fact, they hardly every used Disco breaks. MCs started boasting over parts of their mixes, which is where rapping started. Additionally, "Rapper's Delight" is not really old school, or part of that movement. The Sugar Hill Gang were not even a group, they were pulled in by producers that wanted to make a hip-hop crew. They were even named after the record company.

Not cool -- Ezweave80 00:27, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] recent genrebox change

i was just wondering about the reasoning behing the recent change to the genrebox. while house is definitly a derivative of disco, i would have thought eurodisco and italo disco were best classed as subgenres. --MilkMiruku 12:19, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Random thoughts for the Disco Rivival Section

An important reason for the revival not mentioned in the article is the alternative/grunge generation of rock fans had a very different attitude towered the music then earlier generations of rock fans. They looked at disco and the 1970’s as campy fun. Despite that musically, fashion an attitude wise the alt rock generation was the opposite of disco they had a strong sense of irony. The 1990’s and beyond has featured many formally hated disco artists such as the Bee Gees being elected to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. And how could and disco revival section not mention everybody doing the Y.M.C.A. at ballparks, weddings etc? 02:18, 17 April 2006 (EK)

[edit] Breaks

What's with all the "<br>" breaks? Shouldn't this be wikified? Zepheus 19:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bad Appearance

The first section after the introduction has a heading followed by many, many lines of blank space before finally starting the text after passing the bottom of the genrebox. I think this is a nuisance, and should be fixed. Effect observed on Windows 2000 IE 6.0.2800.1106 --Tuvok 19:18, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, the Popularity section also has the same issue with the second paragraph. --Tuvok 19:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, the first one's fixed, but I needed a whole buch of line breaks to make the first bullet in the following list appear from under the picture. Can anyone else come up with a better fix? --Tuvok 19:25, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nelson James

A Google search, etc., turned up no evidence of an artist called Nelson James or a song called "I Have an Afro." Given especially that this song, said to be from 1972, predates all other "disco" songs in the list, I suspect someone made this song up. Does anyone know anything to the contrary? --Albalb 2:16 10 June 2006

[edit] Donna Summer

Donna Summers lasting influence on Dance music comes from her single "I feel love" as well as the entire D-Side of her album bad girls, as these songs are all totally electronic and therefore more fitting with the transition of disco from teh 70's to the 80s —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.131.208.144 (talk • contribs) 00:12, July 1, 2006 (UTC.

I am inclined to be sympathetic to this. I'd like to see how other users react to this opinion though. __meco 00:55, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Donna Summer has more lasting influence than that. She should at least be given a sentence or two for being the Disco Queen, rivaling the Bee Gees and Chic.

She was one of the main symbolic figures in the disco movement and that era in general. "Love to Love You Baby" and "Last Dance" helped define disco in the public mind as associated with the casual sexuality of that period. She along with John Travolta and the Bee Gees became Public enemy 1 2 and 3 in no particular order to the those in the "Disco Sucks" movement. I personally heard her referred to as “Donna Slut" many times. 02:17, 5 July 2006 (EK)

Donna Summer has more influence than just "I Feel Love". "I Feel Love", "Love To Love You Baby," "Hot Stuff", and "Bad Girls" are her four groundbreakers noted by many rock critics universally as well as her last biggie - "She Works Hard For the Money". She is the pre-eminent disco artist, hands down, and awaits inclusion to the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame (remember, the Bee Gees were more like a pop-rock Beatles-esque group initially before switching into the disco and R&B arena).--Musicluv 03:19, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citing references

The last paragraph of "Rock versus disco" has the feel of being the synthesis of a scholarly work. However, it is not cited as such. It would therefore appear to constitute original research. The argument presented is quite interesting, but without any reference it would have to be removed from the article. __meco 18:39, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The section was removed by Drmagic and I'm copying it here pending source citations:

< removed section begin >

The most troubling aspect of disco for white working class males may have been its association with dancing, which tends to become a site of emotional conflict under modernization, as in Norman Mailer's catchphrase "tough guys don't dance". Disco, by being so clearly an invitation to the dance, is associated under modernization with an abandonment of self which threatens dissolution and depersonalization. Steve Dahl, Garry Meier and Mike Veeck were as impresarios rather innocent, in 1979, about a growing working-class anger, and, in trying to channel this anger into safe targets such as gay men and people of color, found that it overflowed these artificial limits.

< removed section end > __meco 20:11, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Should this link be included?

70s Disco Nights is a live365 radio station. I feel the link to all live365 radio stations that advertise disco music should suffice. I haven't checked out any of them, so if someone would assert that this one in particular provides high quality programming I would agree to have that link remain individually. Otherwise not. __meco 21:53, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

i agree with your sentiment, Meco. Drmagic 21:56, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit warring

Wikipedia has something called the 3 revert rule which states that any user who engages in edit warring and performs more than tre reverts in a 24-hour period will be blocked for 24 hours. I won't report the current episode, however I will report the next. __meco 07:28, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

edit wars don't include vandalism and the reverting of the introduction of false content, which is what this user has done not only to this article but to other articles such as The Beatles and The Bee Gees. thus as a member of the recent changes patrol i am entitled to make whatever corrections i see fit. so in the future when you see me reverting 142.59.75.179's changes, you'll know it's legit. Drmagic 13:21, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sound inclusions would be great

I see that some articles have sound inclusions. It would be great to be able to click on an icon next to "Soul Makossa" or "The Hustle" to hear samples from these songs. I don't have the equipment for implementing this so I haven't checked out any project pages that would explain how to go about making this happen. __meco 16:54, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion for procedure

This article is very vulnerable to corruption as people on a variety of impulses add songs and artists to the numerous lists in the article. This process should be subjected to peer-review to ensure that the correctness of the lists aren't diluted by entries that lack an adquate rationale for inclusion. When I see someone adding a song or an artist I will react only if I am familiar with that entry, otherwise not, and I assume others act correspondingly. My proposal is that we duplicate the lists either here on the talk page or on a separate page and move all changes to the lists in the article itself to this preview area where comments can be made on whether to include the entry or not. A caveat notice could also be posted in the article header about this procedural path. __meco 09:57, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't call Dancing Queen a disco song. __meco 21:39, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hard Rock

The change from rock vs. disco to hard rock vs. disco is unwarranted. Anti disco feelings were just as high among fans of Fleetwood Mac or the Eagles as those of Led Zep. One of the main objections to disco at the time was it's de-emphasis on the writer or the singer. A soft rock fan had particular reason to dislike this element of disco.Every exhibit or website I have seen use the term "rock" fans not "hard rock" fans 69.114.117.103 07:22, 31 August 2006 (UTC) (EK)

[edit] Blondie's "Rapture"

This song has been added along with "Heart of Glass" the non disco artists who made disco records. While I agree with "Heart of Glass" how is "Rapture" a disco or even disco influenced record? 69.114.117.103 05:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC) (EK)

[edit] Length

I did not alter the text of the article, but it seems to me that the lists are a tad out of hand, and that the point is made after say, 10 examples from each, as opposed to over 20. Perhaps someone can edit this down a bit, as listing all songs under the catergories is not feasible.

Also, I think that the aryicle delves too deeply into off shoot genre's dervied from disco. To mention that disco influenced their genesis is one thing, but to provide such exacting examples, and dedicating whole sections of the article to it seem to stray from the main topic too much, and bloats the entire piece. (Though it is otherwise written well enough.) MergeCar 04:46, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I have pared this article down considerably. I attempted to integrate the long lists into the article, and I deleted many of the songs which did not have their own entries in an attempt to include only the most notable examples. In addition, I reorganized the sections somewhat, and I completely deleted the section about whether or not disco is dead--it was unreferenced and seemed more like a commentary on the use of the term disco. IrisWings 06:22, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is Synth disco

In the generally good section "Did Disco really die?" synth is mentioned. If you are referring to Synth Pop the answer is no that genre is a sub category of New Wave. Disco was smooth,optimistic,confident Synth Pop was nerdy,choppy, and many times pessimistic. 69.114.117.103 20:14, 18 November 2006 (UTC) (EK)

I think that's a fair assessment (though disco wasn't necessarily optimistic). Synthpop really grew out of the white art-school, art-pop movement, unlike disco which was essentially a black, soul-influenced style. They didn't even cross over very much until post-house. --80.0.118.40 14:55, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Saturday Night Fever

The article mentions “1977's classic Saturday Night Fever”. This is a Point of View. What should be mentioned about the movie is that it made disco popular in what we would call red state America today. There was one week in early 1978 when nine of the top ten records were from the movie and the Bee Gees broke the Beatles record by having five records in the top ten.69.114.117.103 07:11, 24 November 2006 (UTC) (Ed Kollin)

[edit] Who sang song "Pop Music"

I am looking for the song "Pop Music" online and cant find it i did find a 2002 version by Rainer Schonfelder but want to download the original version any suggestions Thank you in advance for any help —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alw2634 (talk • contribs) 03:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC).

Devo? StuIsCool 03:38, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

M hit it big in 1979 with the song 69.114.117.103 06:53, 5 January 2007 (UTC) (Ed Kollin)

[edit] 80's disco

Very little said about this very influential period in disco music history. 80' disco, or what professionally known as Italo Disco was an underground monster that whipped dance floor in the mid 80's. It had a tremendous following in the gay community and later evolved into house, trance, and other electronic dance forms. However, the original Italo Disco sound only came back recently in artists like Miss Kitten, etc. If you don't know what Italo Disco is and actively critiquing disco and other dance music, please take a look, otherwise you are skipping a very important part of disco that had a much bigger influence than Saturday Night Fever. Italo disco examples: Sylvester- "Rock that Box", Laura Branigan -"Self Control", C.C. Catch - "I can loose my heart tonight", Savage - 'Don'tcry tonight", Divine - 'Love chain reaction', Rose - 'Magic Carillon', Sheryl Lee Ralph - 'In the evening', etc. And make sure it's in a 1981-88 time frame, otherwise your are listening to a remix with altered sound. Good luck! Mish

• I think this is because most writers must be American like myself. Because of the anti-disco movement mentioned in the article disco was derided and just not seen or heard over here during that time period. I understand it was much the opposite situation in Europe. So if you have the proper cites adding a section like that would help the article while providing an education for some of us. 69.114.117.103 03:51, 19 January 2007 (UTC) (Ed Kollin)

[edit] Anti disco backlash then Anti emo backlash now

A lot of different arguments and a very different times of course but there are some similarities. Both are/were a fight within the same generation. What struck me most in reading some of the anti emo rants out there was criticism of effeminate clothing and hair style of emo followers. 69.114.117.103 12:40, 4 February 2007 (UTC) (Ed Kollin)

[edit] Removed vandalism

The line:

"...disco is not too brilliant and it can be said that..."

was removed because it was POV and worse, simply vandalism. Jtpaladin 18:27, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disco was expensive to produce

Back in the '70's, we didn't have computers to make the music that can be created from a simple PC today. With many Disco songs, there were sometimes many instruments, including entire orchestras.

One reason for the demise of the popularity of Disco was because record producers didn't want to spend the kind of money to make Disco music that was needed. Rock music only needed a band with a few instruments and was relatively inexpensive to produce.

The record producers wanted Disco dead and did what they could do make this happen.

Along with Rock fans that were scared of Disco, DJ's that didn't like Disco, and TV shows like "WKRP in Cinncinati", that relentlessly attacked Disco, is it any wonder that Disco collapsed as quickly as it did? I remember watching the film, "Stripes" and Judge Reinhold wearing a shirt that read, "Death before Disco". What other genre of music had ever fallen out of favor so quickly?

Please check out http://www.emplive.org/exhibits/index.asp?articleID=622 for some interesting quotes from people in the industry.

This is of course my analysis of the demise of Disco in popular culture but these are some ideas that should be further explored. Jtpaladin 19:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

REMOVED: *Eagles - "The Disco Strangler" Reason: This is not a Disco song and is more of contemptious piece insulting the Disco life-style. Jtpaladin 17:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1200 bpm?

SUrely this is a mis-type, however I am not sure what to change it do. 120 bpm is a bit leisurely, and 200 bpm is pretty frenetic. As a rough guess, I bet most of the "disco" hits I am familiar with (and which may or may not be representitive of the genre) run about 150-160 bpm. But then I am not either a fan or expert on the genre, so perhaps someone who is could revise this.Wschart 16:17, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Needs a lock

Too many unregistered users are editing this. Look at the grammar date, for example. February 2008?! I hadn't even logged on yet and I could fix problems in it. It needs a lock! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Natvvgal (talk • contribs) 15:36, 17 March 2007 (UTC).