Talk:Dir en grey/Archive 1
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About Kyo
This isn't a major change to this page, but I've added a listing for Kyo if any are interested. I felt that he has done some rather significant things beyond just being a part of Dir en grey, and that he deserved a listing as such. I feel I covered it well, but feel free to make changes. I'm sure I probably made language mistakes here and there that others may find that I couldn't see, or prehaps n-pov mistakes even though attempted to remain unbiased.
Also, you may have a perspective on it that I was unable to put into words.
- contains very brief history, run-down of his accomplishments, and description of his work
~ Saka. 12:24. 04.01.2004
- I've replied to this @ Kyo's talk page. :)
- tp 21:29, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)
Translation of band name
I've changed the translation of the word "Dir en Grey" in this file. I've never agreed with the extremely unbased "Silver Coin" claims, and it's almost obvious that Dir en Grey means "to you in grey" since Lareine's demo is also called ~Haiiro no anata o~, which means just that. I hope I didn't break any HORRIBLE un-written rule :P ~Ikis, 20:30 06.28.2005 (Israel time. YOU calculate >>;)
- In response to the name issue, I went and did a little googling. What I found was this, and I reworked the initial paragraph with it in mind. I acknowledged both sides to the translation argument, so I think it works out pretty well.
- --Illness Illusion 19:23, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
Cleanup
I devided the band's release history with their performance history of other random history. The article was getting too cluttered to read. I also removed some unneeded information, like most of the info on saku and clever slezoid, or personal information (like abotu shinya's dogs) that wasn't very relevent to the topic. ~Saka 11:25 September 22, 2005
Release dates?
I'm new to this band... but I am unsure about the release dates.. how can a single (ie, THE FINAL) but released a year before the album?
- Response: In Japan singles are usually produced and released before the release of an album. This is the opposite of the US custom of releasing singles after the cd release.
- Several of the singles were written released very far in advance of the writing, recording, and release of the full cd. The Final and Child Prey are notorious examples of this.
- ~Saka 11:28 September 22, 2005
Minor copyediting
Corrected some grammatical mistakes, and re-worded some sentences that didn't sound very good, in response to the cleanup feature. I think it could still use a little more work. -Kyle, 16:03 3 October, 2005.
Revert
Not sure who rewrote things so drastically since I last edited the page, but I really think it's got a quite a bit wrong with it. There seems to be some bias in the first paragraph ("profound lyrics"), and the brief history seems to have deleted the actual background of the band in favor of a more "recent events" type thing. I'm going to revert back a bit, I apologize if anyone made any significant changes.
Speaking of which, is it just me, or does the entirety of the "name paragraph" sound awkward now? --Illness Illusion 03:49, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Semi-extensive copyediting
[See the version comparison.] I've fixed a number of grammatical and formatting mistakes throughout the text, and standardised the date formats to the more human-readable English standard (from dd.mm.yyyy, yyyy.mm.dd, and dd Month yyyy to Month dd, yyyy). I converted some inline external links to wikilinks and added a few new wikilinks. The links list was pruned to remove apparently irrelevent links; see "Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links" (official policy). Several links seem to simply be portals or otherwise unrelated websites. I didn't touch the fan links, but will return to prune that as well -- only notable groups should be included, if at all. Likewise, I'll later remove the lyrics section, since the information should be placed on Wikipedia on the appropriate album or song page. I further rewrote the Band Members section into prose form, which should be much more readable, and moved it above the Brief History section. I still see quite a few improvements that could be made, but I'll wait a bit for those. On a related note, could anyone clarify the following line from the article?
Dir en grey's international fans who speak a Latin-based language often use the abbreviations Deg and Diru when both speaking and typing for sake of brevity.
// Pathoschild 04:42, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Fandom and other information
I removed the last paragraph of this section. I feel that defining Visual Kei at this point in the article is unnecessary and Visual Kei has it's own article for this. Also stating that Diru strayed from their Visual Kei roots is stated in the previous paragraph and is redundant. - frogfusious
Revert/Major Changes
I feel this version of the history section is too cluttered. Therefore, I've reverted to my previous version (from September 2005) of the page and have edited it, taking into consideration the edits that have occured between that version and the former 'current' version. Changes I've made to my old version include:
- New recent history, new older history
- Minor gramatical changes
- Completion of the change to American written style dates (i.e., July 9, 2005)
- Inclusion of new links
- Removal of dead links and repeat links
- Alphabetized unofficial links, prioritized official links
PLEASE NOTE: The Band's early histroy has NOT been abandoned, as was a complaint last time. If the page is lacking in early history, it is because is was not there to begin with. My version was simply a division of the information into two sections and included everything the version before it did with one difference: organization. However, there is a significant amount of recent information here, and I have added a bit more. At the same time - I have added information about the origin of the band and early occurance that were previously unreleased here. Hopefully, this will quite the complaints about lack of early history.
New information and corrections are welcome (Particuarly needed on Fandom and the Profile), but I feel that the page needs a distinction between what is actual history and what is just a glorified release timeline.
Hope you guys like the changes. ~Saka 5:01 January 9, 2006
Adding details concerning westward shift....
Mostly added some info in fandom and other information. I think more detail could be given on the nuance in Deg's shift from Vis Kei / Japanese to Rock / Western influences. For instance, consider how six Ugly began the shift to the "Vulgar era" (a term already on page). While Western / Rock influenced, it just seemed there is some more detail there; the punk vs. metal is a good start I think. Also, I wanted to mention how many elements of six Ugly were already part of Deg's history - for example, Byo shin epitomizes in some ways the sound of this album, and yet it is simply reworked from their indies release! I don't think I actually added that in yet...
Also, when adding things, i noticed it seems there is overlap between Release summary and fandom sections. Not quite sure how this should be resolved. Maybe some of my edits should be closer to release info...
I guess to summarize, my main point is that there are some good details here that, as Saka mentions are not history per se, but perhaps *should* be included as sort of an analysis or 'glorification' of their releases.
Anyways check it out the edits and make 'em better...!
Minor fix
just made one minor grammer change
changed
"The release was such a departure that the band to consider releasing it under a new name"
to
"The release was such a departure that the band considered releasing it under a new name"
looked like the author changed how they wanted to refer to the event half way through perhaps intending
"The release was such a departure that it caused the band to consider releasing it under a new name"
well this is proably to verbose so feel free to chop it out of the discussion. NatDinoMus 3rd Feb 06
Rework
I’ve tried to rework the entire article, it looked like an ugly, cluttered mess, information about each members belongs in their own article, as does in-depth looks and fan receptions of each release. - Deathrocker 20:10, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Questionable development
I'm pretty shocked how a previously rather decent article has been dumbed down and superficialised. Several bits of useful information are gone (the whole style/sellout controversy for example) instead there is an air now of bias and - excuse my frankness - bad English. And really, is a picture that portraits the group in it's long-gone Visual Kei looks appropriate for the Wikipedia? Dir en grey are touring the US right now and will do more concerts in Europe later this year. That means that quite a few people might want to look them up here and they will want a well written and down to earth band history and probably one or two paragraphs about the stylistic development over the years.
I'll try see to that myself depending on how much time I'll be able to spare. - Cyrus XIII, March 18th, 2006
I've been watching this page for a bit, and I must agree with Cyrus. Things have been dumbed down, and I wish someone with the proper knowledge could expand this page from it's current narrowness about touring into a well bodied article. There are other aspects about this group that could be documented. - TheS0S 19:29, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm about to give up on this one. Bits I added in the 1st paragraph, concerning the band's musical style have already been reduced to "a form of Hard rock" which is about as expressive as "this band plays music". So sad the people responsible lack the social competence to actually use this discussion page as a means to come up with something that would meet Wikipedia's quality standards instead of promoting their own opinion or wishful thinking on the topic at hand (as I mentioned before, the fanbase of this group is somewhat devided and it would be desirable if certain more narrow minded individuals stood as far away from the edit button as possible).
If anyone would like to team up with me to give this article a complete and thorough makeover, feel free to contact me here or on ICQ (74062151) - Cyrus XIII, April 20th, 2006
I suggest that you A) assume good faith. B) Study the articles of Gothic rock, Industrial and Pop to find out what these genres actually are musically, before cluttering the article listing 5 or more genres that the band have no connection to sound wise. You may learn something. - Deathrocker 20:52, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
My iteration of the paragraph didn't even contain two of the three genres you just linked, a look at the article's history would have told you that. Under such circumstances you might understand that the ability to assume good faith is a tiny bit strained on my end. - Cyrus XIII, April 21th, 2006
Seperate Discography?
I'm sorry if this made sense to every one but why is the discography on a seperate page? im pretty sure that isnt standard wikipedia practice. Maybe the pages should be merged ? user:coda_littleking
It is certainly some sort of standard for bands with vast discographies (think KISS), but this is not really the case yet with the group at hand here. I'd also suggest to do something about this extensive tour title list. It seems so profoundly irrelevant. - Cyrus XIII, April 21th, 2006
Quite alot of bands have it on Wikipedia, including, David Bowie, Marilyn Manson.. and others, Dir en Grey have released quite alot of singles, which is included on the discography page. - Deathrocker 10:35, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Better image
I've changed the image for a better one, and I think it's more recent. You can see the members more clearly than in the old one. Hope you don't get angry :)
~ FAZZ @ 15 May 2006
Erasing and Possible Rewriting
Today, I was seeking information on Die, the guitarist for this band. When I arrived at this often referenced page, I found it was completely empty. I've heard that this article has been dumbed down, and I agree that some important facts and some good writing are missing. I have restored the article, and request that anybody who wants a new article write one themselves. In the mean time, let's leave up this current revision. It is, after all, better to have a low-standard article than to not have one at all. - notjake13 5:40, 16 May 2006 (EST)
POV
this article really reads like a fan page... not an informative article. i'm going to go through and take out some of the POV stuff and clean up some spelling, grammar, etc. let me know if you disagree with anything i alter. Tmkain 01:18, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
- I've checked all of the band members' articles too and they're even worse -- especially the article on Die ("don't let his appearance fool you!", "I wish them the best of luck", etc.). I wouldn't even know where to begin to clean up this POV/weasleword mess, especially since it's not particularly a band I know much about. --I am not good at running 04:14, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Article marked for its lack of NPOV and citations
I agree with TheSOS and notjake13. The article now has a respective marking which will hopefully draw enough attention to the issue. A complete rewrite is needed, to get rid of a few cases of personal bias and utter fanboyism. Plus there are no citations for most of what is in it (which makes some aspects, especially the band's early history rather disputable). - Cyrus XIII, May 23rd, 2006
notjake13 was refering to the article been blanked by an anon [1] nobody bothered to revert the vandalism. - Deathrocker 07:29, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Could you stop these counter-productive interferences? By now it looks like you have a personal agenda to keep this article in a state several other people already agreed on being low quality (regardless of any sort of vandalism that might have occured in the meantime). So you can either start co-operating or back off and let people make some genuine improvements. Like adding a tag to draw broader attention to some evident shortcomings. - Cyrus XIII, May 23rd, 2006
Could you please stop whinging about the article and actually put forth something to it?.. you've made absolutely no effort to improve the article at all or even state which parts you feel need improving & why..
All I've seen you do is whinge on here, and make one edit to the actual article, which was ridiculous, claiming the band played "Goth rock/Nu-metal/Industrial/Pop/Shock rock".. when you seemingly have no prior knowledge of those genres. - Deathrocker 15:05, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Accidential rework
I started out cleaning things up a bit (redundant/hardly relevant information, bias/unnecessary grandeur, bad English) and ended up rephrasing pretty much the entire article. I guess it -is- a lot more readable and up to Wikipedia standards now though it could still use more meat between all the releases and touring. But please, it should still be more noteworthy stuff than lengthy tour names and the availability of t-shirts. An extra section about the ongoing controversy among fans regarding Dir en grey's stylistic and visual changes would be nice, the discography page could use pictures and there really has to be a way to make the tour list look less ugly. That's my todo list for the not so distant future - or anyone who reads this and likes the idea. :) - Cyrus XIII, May 26th, 2006
Congratulations to whomever rewrote this article! The aricle is much cleaner, more focused, and less biased. I am now confident in directing people to this page fo further informatoin on Dir en grey. - notjake13 13:06, 1 June 2006 (JST)
Thx notjake13, good to get some positive feedback. I outlined a few more things that would improve this and its related articles here and while we're at it, there are individual articles for all of Dir en grey's singles (!) which should just be deleted/merged with the discography. - Cyrus XIII, June 1st, 2006
Good job Cyrus, the article looks a lot better now. About the singles, I think they need more information, eg: "This single caused fans to blah blah" or "this has been the most succesful single to date... blah blah" etc. Fazz010s 04:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Just gave the tour list a makeover (unintentionally marked as a minor edit - my bad), again, the result should be less cluttered/more readable. By the way, I would really like to know why this Deathmask thing does not need the [citation needed] tag. - Cyrus XIII, June 2nd, 2006
Another cleanup...
...mainly to reduce redundancy created by recent changes. A few words to fellow contributers: Your input is appreciated, but please, when you add something to the article, read the entire article beforehand and employ common sense about what ot add and what not.
- If one of the subsections of Touring is titled "2006", annunal events listed there do not need to have their year added once more.
- Tour names, especially the long ones hurt the reading flow of the History section and do not improve it.
- Same goes for Kanji, or anything else written in an Asian alphabet. This is an article of the English Wikipedia after all.
- And if you feel like adding such characters, in one of the other sections, please ensure that they're in proper UTF8.
Also, I cleaned up the lineup section, opting for the singer's birth name as mentioned in his own article.
- Cyrus XIII, June 10th, 2006
Article seems biased
I was reading the Dir en grey article, and it seems overly biased, as written by an obsessed fan. - 66.153.232.185, July 30th, 2006
Feel free to improve it. I must admit some curiosity though, what content actually qualifies to be "overly biased" and "obsessed" after the article's recent makeovers. I took the liberty (hopefully to no one's offense) to chronologically order this discussion page. - Cyrus XIII, August 9th, 2006
Regarding names
...of the Band members in the lineup section. Some kids seem to insist that here or more generally in articles concerning Japanese bands the western naming scheme for people (first name followed by family name) does not apply, even though it is common for most western literature about anything/anyone Japanese including the English Wikipedia itself. Some examples: Junichiro Koizumi, Shinji Ikari, Nobuo Uematsu
In the past, people often complained about this article reading like a fan site, complete with bias and a touch of elitism. The Japanese naming scheme (family name followed by first name), a lot of Kanji and the full capitalization of whatever other name or title that might have stumbled into the article (like the supposed previous bandname that has lacked a citation for months by now) does not help. Quite the opposite, actually. - Cyrus XIII, August 16th, 2006
Genre
I hope I'm not out of line in saying this but I really wish people would stop changing the genre to "Japanese rock", "J-rock" and "Visual Kei". Rock is rock no matter where it comes from so I don't believe "Japanese rock" certifies as a true genre of it's own, same goes for J-rock, which I'm pretty sure is a fan-created term anyway and "visual Kei" is a style of dressing which many bands of many different genres take on, it does not count as a genre of music. ~SpatulaGeekGirl
I agree with you in so far that the term Japanese rock (and its abbrevation J-Rock) does not say much about the music apart from
- it is some form of rock music
- peformed by people from Japan
- and probably with Japanese lyrics
There isn't really anything more defining about the term and same goes for Visual Kei, which as you said is about the look of the band. (I'd love to see people contesting these assesments by explaining the miriads of smilarities between Luna Sea's "Rosier" and Malice Mizer's "Hakai No Hate" to me.)
But since Japanese rock just happens to apply to what Dir en grey are doing (though their Visual Kei days are indeed pretty much over), we might as well stick with it. I've already been going at lengths all over Wikipedia to replace J-Rock with its spelled out counterpart, in order to present readers with a more sober/scientific/encyclopedic genre handle, that is less coined by a given fanbase. I'd welcome any help I can get with that. - Cyrus XIII, 10:02, September 5th 2006 (CET)
Thinning out the ext. links
Let's try not to put anything even remotely connected with this band into the link section, shall we?
Festivals they happen to play at should not be there as well as sites in Japanese that when compared to sites already linked feature no additional (Free-Will Japan) or redundant or outdated information (SunKrad). Also I see no harm in directly linking to the related artist's section on the external site, since this is what someone coming from this article will most likely be browsing to anyway. Also re-ordered was the labels section in the info box, which now lists the two companies primarily credited on Deg releases first, with secondary distributers listed in alphabetic order after that.
- Cyrus XIII, 11:41, September 6th 2006 (CET)
TOUR06 INWARD SCREAM in Discography
Recently, the user CLEVER SLEAZOID made a page for the bootlegged audio rip of TOUR06 INWARD SCREAM at the Budokan last August.
Does any of you think that should be added to the Discography?
-AKnot
I Wouldn't say so. Apart from the relatively short period of time between now and the next album and/or official live release, this bootleg will hold very little significance, if any at all. Plus it has never been released through any traditional channels, the audio quality is so bad, it is hard to even recognize previously released songs and the titles for new songs given in the article's track list are likely to be made up by the bootlegger or other fans along the way. - Cyrus XIII, 8:08, September 9th 2006 (CET)
Is the Touring section necessary?
I'd like to propose the removal of the Touring section for the following reasons:
- The information provided here is likely to be very trivial to most readers. That the band has done quite a bit of touring over the years can be easily grasped from the History section.
- The section is a carbon copy of a similar listing on the band's official site, apart from very little additional information.
- This information (about which DVD given tour or concert is featured on) would fare better on the discography page.
- Few other band-related articles on Wikipedia feature a similar listing, the only one I could find being about The Rolling Stones, which is not only far more detailed in general, there are also extensive articles on some of their tours.
Please express your opinion in the Survey subsection and vote with either delete or keep.
Regards
- Cyrus XIII, 20:02, September 10th 2006 (CET)
Survey
Even though I started the touring section long ago, I don't think it's really needed within the page since it's in the official site; people can just go to the official site and look at the timeline section there. So in conclusion, delete.
-AKnot 9/11/06 10:55AM US PST
Conclusion
Even though participation has been low, the proposal has been pending for five days and the vote is unanimous. Information not included in the official site's timeline has already been added to the articles about the individual live DVDs, the last revision of this page containing the Touring section may be found here here. - Cyrus XIII, 21:41, September 15th 2006 (CET)
