Talk:Dhimmi

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This article was nominated for deletion on June 27 2006. The result of the discussion was Speedy Keep.

Contents 1 When to revert 2 Redundent Sentence & Lead Clean-Up 3 one-sided, ahistorical, and clearly anti-Muslim 4 This article is shamefully PC 5 Etymology 6 Meaning 7 Bat Yeor 8 Report fairly and in a balanced way? 9 Why not just state what the word means in its common day use? 10 Cleanup LEAD 11 Influence of Race on Dhimmi Status 12 Recent changes 13 al-Hibri 14 Dhimmitude in Saudi Arabia 15 Courts 16 Dhimmi in action 17 Off Topic 18 Armenian Genocide

[edit] When to revert

• Reverting is a decision which should be taken seriously.
• If you feel the edit is unsatisfactory, improve it rather than simply reverting or deleting it.

So, everyone! Please remember that reverting is a last resort.

[edit] Redundent Sentence & Lead Clean-Up

Forced conversion, while not the norm, played a key role in some later periods of Islamic history, mostly in the 12th century under the Almohad dynasty of North Africa and al-Andalus as well as in Persia where Shi'a Islam is dominant.^[1] I was going to move this sentence from the Lead to the Forced Conversion Section. But I found that this was allready in the section. Forced conversions occurred mostly in the Maghreb, especially under the Almohads, a militant dynasty with messianic claims, as well as in Persia, where Shi'a Muslims were generally less tolerant than their Sunni counterparts.[58] Also, the section goes into more detail. Therefore, I believe that the original sentence is redundant and should not be included in the article.

The intro should touch on forced conversion as it did. Arrow740 00:30, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a reason for what you are saying? If you want to write about Forced conversions, there is a seperate article for that. I'm reverting to my edit—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.175.242.13 (talk) 08:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC).

Ref Arrow's comment. It is a minor part of the article, not a major part of the article.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.175.242.13 (talk • contribs) 06:39, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Possible Solution: You can write a second paragraph and include this as apart of that paragraph.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.175.242.13 (talk • contribs) 07:05, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Edit By Merzbow: Hey, I liked this edit. Concise and it fit in the Intro. Good Job.--67.175.242.13 21:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm a fan of keeping article leads small; this article in particular has had an ongoing problem with it. - Merzbow 06:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] one-sided, ahistorical, and clearly anti-Muslim

this article is hardly PC. I suppose that writing an article on the status of non-Muslims under Islamic rule in English requires that you rely on at least slightly biased sources, but Bat Ye'or is rabidly anti-Muslim and she is cited all over this article. There can be no pretenses of disinterested scholarship here. Most of the "factual" accounts of this article are isolated and mischaracterized events presented in a way to portray a consistent ill-treatment of religious minorities and to shock the reader. Telling is the fact that these are not the accounts of Muslim historians translated into English, rather they are orientalist scholars bent on portraying Islam in a negative light by selecting choice bits of arabic works and passing them off as a survey of Muslim sources. Despite these mischaracterizations of isolated events, none of them add up to Nazi genocide of Jews or South African apartheid or even the Spanish Inquisition, yet the editors of this page find it appropriate to approximate a thousand years of "protected status" (my preferred wording) to about a decade of genocide. It's completely illogical. The article should be rewritten completely to not include anything from Bat Ye'or. Even Bernard Lewis, often criticized for including anecdotes of Islamic history that do not portray Muslims negatively, is clearly biased, and should not be included in an encyclopedic article on the topic. At the very least, a subject as politically charged with such differing historical accounts as this should have as many historical accounts written by people with pro-Muslim agendas as historical accounts written by people with anti-Muslim agendas (Bat Ye'or & Bernard Lewis). Oizfar 21:13, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Following section about Bosnia and Herzegovina found directly on wikipedia describes a number of changes placed upon native Bosnian's that describe dhimmitude conditions that led to a "drastic impact on Bosnia's population make-up." I have quoted this website in the following paragraphs.

The Ottoman Empire had already started its conquest of Europe and posed a major threat to the Balkans throughout the first half of the 15th century. Finally, after decades of political and social instability, Bosnia officially fell in 1463. Herzegovina would follow in 1482, with a Hungarian-backed reinstated "Bosnian Kingdom" being the last to succumb in 1527. Christianity had been in place since the first century, and numerous artifacts and objects from the time testify to this.

The Ottoman conquest of Bosnia marked a new era in the country's history and introduced tremendous changes in the political and cultural landscape of the region. Although the kingdom had been crushed and its high nobility executed, the Ottomans nonetheless allowed for the preservation of Bosnia's identity by incorporating it as an integral province of the Ottoman Empire with its historical name and territorial integrity - a unique case among subjugated states in the Balkans.[6] Within this sandžak (and eventual vilayet) of Bosnia, the Ottomans introduced a number of key changes in the territory's socio-political administration; including a new landholding system, a reorganization of administrative units, and a complex system of social differentiation by class and religious affiliation.[3] The Ottoman empire was Muslim.

The four centuries of Ottoman rule also had a drastic impact on Bosnia's population make-up, which changed several times as a result of the empire's conquests, frequent wars with European powers, migrations, and epidemics.[3] A native Slavic-speaking Muslim community emerged and eventually became the largest of the ethno-religious groups (mainly as a result of a gradually rising number of conversions to Islam.

70.109.94.110 16:14, 17 January 2007 (UTC)Charles M.70.109.94.110 16:14, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This article is shamefully PC

With all due respect to scholarly intercourse, Dhimmi is one of the most horrible and damaging concepts developed by humankind. As a philosophy, Dhimmi is not different from the Nazi's view of everyone else as untermensch, and South African's apartheid. The only difference is that dhimmi has existed for over 10 centuries and has damaged numerous people and civilizations. Comparing to this, the Nazi Aryans and the aparteid are just short blinks.

I come originally from Bulgaria, one of the Christian countries that existed and presevered for 500 years as part of the Ottoman empire. My grand-grand parents were dhimmis. Believe me, you've got it all wrong.

Bulgaria is a 1,300 year old country with rich history and culture. It is the birthplace of the Cyrillic aplhabet and much of the Orthodox Christiandom started there. All of this ended when the Muslims came.

There were MASSIVE forced conversions to Islam, which affected between 20% and 30% of the population (about a quarter of the modern territory of Bulgaria is still populated with the descendants of those people, who are still Muslims). Where do you think the Muslims in Bosnia and Albania came from? The vast majority of those were converted to Islam by force. In any of these countries you can still hear a large number of folk songs and tales that tell about the time of people were forced to "become Turks" by converting to Islam.

For the majority of the population, there were few choices. "Immigrating" away from the lands controlled by Islam was not an option - once you were counted for tax purposes, "running away" was a crime. People were hunted, cought, and beaten and shipped back as slaves. Living as a dhimmi meant living as a second-class person who can never feel safe or protect his wife and children from any action by any Muslim.

The prolonged existence as dhimmi under Islamic rule is one of the most damaging things that can happen to people. Take a look at the map of Europe - the poorest, worst adapted regions on that map, from Spain, through Sicily, to Albania, Bosnia and Bulgaria are all regions that have spent hundreds of years as dhimmi under Islamic rule. While most Eastern European countries have recovered completely from the communist rule in less than 20 years, the damage caused by Islam is still there hundreds of years later.

In your attempts to keep everyone happy, you are rewriting history.

Quoted directly from wikipedia to give background on Bulgaria, see above, and the dimmi conditions imposed on the balkans under Ottoman Empire siege and rule. To the victor go the spoils, cultural genocide. An interesting way to spread ones religion to others. Make life less pleasant so they will come if you build the masque.

The following gives supporting details found on various wikipedia pages by following links to support the above personal experience of dhimmitude. The institution of dimmitude, a modern term, is called by various past names depending on the situation. Dhimmitude took a toll as one can see by the balkan turmoil after the fall of the U.S.S.R. An example of get them before they get us again. Or as Borat would say, "not so good for me."

In the late 7th century a branch of the Bulgars led by Khan Asparuh migrated into the northern Balkans, where they merged with the local Slavic and Thracian population to form the First Bulgarian Empire in AD 681. In 717 the Bulgarians helped relieve the Arab siege of Constantinople, killing some 40,000-60,000 soldiers. Their khan Tervel was called by his contemporaries The Saviour of Europe.

By the end of the 14th century the country had disintegrated into several feudal principalities and was eventually conquered by the Ottoman Empire. A Polish-Hungarian crusade under the rule of Władysław III of Poland to free the Balkans was crushed in 1444 in the battle of Varna.

The five-century period of Ottoman rule was characterized by great violence and oppression. The Bulgarian population was decimated and most of its cultural relics were lost. Large towns and the areas where Ottoman power was strong were severely depopulated until the 19th century.[2]

Following the Russo-Turkish War, 1877-78 and the Treaty of San Stefano of March 3, 1878, an autonomous Bulgarian principality was proclaimed. The treaty was immediately rejected by the Great Powers for fear that a large Slavic country on the Balkans would serve Russian interests. This led to the Treaty of Berlin (1878) which provided for an autonomous Bulgarian principality comprising Moesia and the region of Sofia. The first Bulgarian prince was Alexander von Battenberg. Most of Thrace was included in the autonomous region of Eastern Rumelia, whereas the rest of Thrace along with the whole of Macedonia was returned under the sovereignty of the Ottomans. After uniting with Eastern Rumelia in 1885 (following the Serbo-Bulgarian War), the principality was proclaimed a fully independent kingdom in 1908. This happened during the reign of Ferdinand I of Bulgaria.

The Russo-Turkish War of 1877–1878 had its origins in the Russian goal of gaining access to the Mediterranean Sea and liberating the Orthodox Christian Slavic peoples of the Balkan Peninsula (Bulgarians, Serbians) from the Islamic-ruled Ottoman Empire. These nations delivered by the Russians from the centuries of Ottoman rule regard this war as the second beginning of their nationhood.

The war also provided an opportunity to gain full independence for the Kingdom of Romania. Although unlike the rest of the Balkan counties it had never been part of the Ottoman Empire, it was still officially under Ottoman suzerainty. Hence, in Romanian historic works, the war is known as the Romanian War of Independence.

An anti-Ottoman uprising occurred in Bosnia and Herzegovina in the summer of 1875. The main reason for this revolt was the heavy tax burden imposed by financially defunct Ottoman administration.

Taking of Izmail in 1877.

In August 1876, Serb forces, supported by Bulgarian and Russian volunteers, were defeated by the Ottoman army, which was the worst-case scenario for Russians and Austrians as they couldn't claim any Ottoman possessions. However the atrocities committed against the civilian Slav population during the war and during the Bulgarian April uprising had a wide-spread response throughout Europe. As a result the Constantinople Conference was held in December 1876 in Constantinople (now Istanbul). At this conference, at which the Ottomans were not represented, the Great Powers discussed the boundaries of one or more future autonomous Bulgarian provinces within the Ottoman Empire.

The Conference was interrupted by the Ottoman foreign minister, who informed the delegates that Ottoman empire had approved a new constitution, which guaranteed rights and freedoms of all ethnic minorities and Bulgarians would enjoy equal rights with all Ottoman citizens.

Under pressure from the British and having suffered enormous losses (by some estimates about 200,000 men) Russia accepted the truce offered by Turkey on January 31, 1878, but continued to move towards Constantinople. The British sent a fleet of battleships to intimidate Russia from entering the city, and Russian forces stopped by San Stefano. Eventually Russia entered into a settlement under the Treaty of San Stefano (Ayastefanos Anlaşması in Turkish) on March 3, by which the Ottoman Empire would recognize the independence of Romania, Serbia, Montenegro, and autonomy of Bulgaria.

Direct examples of dhimmitude by different terminology, referenced and quoted from wikipedia. I choose to focus on military terms of dhimmitude, highlighted below. The right to bear arms denied to Christians was interesting to me. Also interesting was the fact one had to become Muslim to be in the military, even if you were captured and forced to be in the military. Interesting concepts since the west places more importance on nation above religion. The opposite is true in Islam, religion before statehood.

Sultan Murad of the fledgling Ottoman Empire founded the units around 1365. It was initially formed of Dhimmi (non-Muslims, originally exempted from the military service), especially Christian youths and prisoners-of-war, reminiscent of Mamelukes.

The first Janissary units comprised war captives and slaves, selecting one in five for enrollment in the ranks (Pencik rule). After the 1380s Sultan Mehmet I filled their ranks with the results of taxation in human form called devshirmeh: the Sultan’s men conscripted a number of non-Muslim, usually Christian, boys – at first at random, later, by strict selection – to be trained. Initially they favoured Greeks, Albanians (who also supplied many gendarmes), usually selecting about one boy from forty houses, but the numbers could be changed to correspond with the need for soldiers. Boys aged 14-18 were preferred, though ages 8-20 could be taken. Next the devshirmeh was extended to also include Serbs, Bosnians and other Balkan countries, later especially Ukraine and southern Russia. The Janissaries started accepting enrollment from outside the devshirmeh system first during the reign of Sultan Murad III (1546-1595) and completely stopped enrolling devshirmeh in 17th century. After this period, volunteers were enrolled, mostly of Muslim origin.[3]

Janissaries trained under strict discipline with hard labour and in practically monastic conditions in acemi oğlan ("rookie" or "cadet") schools, where they were expected to remain celibate. They were also expected to convert to Islam. All did, as Christians were not allowed to bear arms in the Ottoman Empire until the 19th century. Unlike other Muslims, they were expressly forbidden to wear beards (a Muslim custom), only a moustache. These rules were obeyed by Janissaries, at least until 18th century when they also began to engage in other crafts and trades, breaking another of the original rules.

For all practical purposes, Janissaries belonged to the Sultan, carrying the title kapıkulu ("door slave") indicating their collective bond with the Sultan. Janissaries were taught to consider the corps as their home and family, and the Sultan as their de facto father. Only those who proved strong enough earned the rank of true Janissary at the age of twenty four or twenty five. The regiment inherited the property of dead Janissaries, thus amassing wealth (like religious orders and foundations enjoying the 'dead hand').

In return for their loyalty and their fervour in war, Janissaries gained privileges and benefits.

When Janissaries could practically extort money from the Sultan and business and family life replaced martial fervour, their effectiveness as combat troops decreased. The northern borders of the Ottoman Empire slowly began to shrink southwards after the second Battle of Vienna in 1683. The Janissaries resisted attempts to reorganise the army and in 1622 killed Sultan Osman II when he planned to replace them. They also had support of the Bektashi sect.

n 1826 the Janissaries noticed that the Sultan was forming a new army. Some have suggested that the Sultan had incited them to revolt on purpose. On June 14-15, 1826, the Janissaries in Istanbul revolted but this time most of the army, and the population at large, turned against them. The Sipahis, the cavalry units loyal to the Sultan, forced them to retreat to their barracks. Artillery fired 15 volleys into the barracks, causing massive casualties. Survivors were executed or banished, and two years later Mahmud II confiscated the last Janissary possessions. This event is now called The Auspicious Incident.

The first mamluks served the Abbasid caliphs in 9th century Baghdad. The Abbasids recruited them mainly from areas near the Caucasus (mainly Circassian and Georgian) and in areas north of the Black Sea (mainly Turkic, most of whom were Kipchak Turks). Most of the captured were of non-Muslim origin. The mamluks were often sold into slavery by impoverished steppe families or kidnapped by slave-traders.

After mamluks were converted to Islam, they were trained as cavalry soldiers.

After the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in the Turkish-Austrian war of 1791, Serbs living under Turkish rule began to realise that an uprising against the Ottomans might be successful.

Seeing the growing displeasure, the Sultan Selim III proclaimed fermans in 1793 and 1796 which gave more rights to Serbs. Among other things, taxes were now collected by local Serbian rulers called knezes ("local dukes"), freedom of trade and religion was granted, and, most important of all, the Janissary corps had to leave Belgrade Pashaluk.

However, on January 30, 1799, the Turkish court allowed the Janissaries to return. They and their leaders, the dahias, showed little or no respect to any authority, even the central Turkish government. After they killed Vizier Hadzi-Mustafa of Belgrade in 1801, they started to rule Serbia on their own. Recently-granted rights were suspended, and dahias exerted unlimited rule over Belgrade Pashaluk. Taxes were drastically increased, land was taken away, forced labour (čitlučenje) was introduced, and many citizens fled the Janissaries in fear.

In 1805 the Serbian rebels organized a basic government for administering Serbia during the combat. Rule was divided between the Narodna Skupstina (People's assembly), the Praviteljstvujusci Sovjet (Ruling Council), and Karadjordje himself. Land was returned, forced labour was abolished, and taxes were reduced. The young state was modernised and by 1808 the Great School was founded, regarded as the foundation of the University of Belgrade.

The Massacre of Serbian knights, known in Serbia as Seca knezova, was an event which occurred in the central square of Valjevo, when the most prominent nobles of Belgrade Pashaluk were brutally executed by the order of Ottoman authorities. The list included Aleksa Nenadovic and Ilija Bircanin, both fathers to the future diplomats of liberated Serbia. The event triggered a widespread revolt and eventually evolved into a national revolution aimed at putting an end to the 300 years of Ottoman occupation. The massacre included many more high ranked citizens of Serbian descent (dozens of them). According to historical sources of the city of Valjevo, heads of the murdered men (following their decapitation) were put on some sort of a public display in the central square to serve as an example to those who did not agree with the Ottoman politics.

Hadzi Prodan's Revolt soon failed and he fled to Austria. After the failure of this revolt, the Turks inflicted more persecution against the Serbs, such as high taxation, forced labor, and rape. In March 1815, Serbs had several meetings and decided upon a new revolt.

Both guerilla groups had also to confront the Turkish Army. These conflicts ended after the revolution of in July, 1908, as they promised to respect all ethnicities and religions and generally to provide a constitution.

The officers who had instigated the revolution, as well as their civilian supporters, were primarily concerned with preserving the status quo for the Ottoman Empire. They were not, strictly speaking, revolutionaries. It is also pointed out that they were concerned with issues of a more personal nature at the same time as the state's salvation, such as salaries and rank promotions, not unlike the Janissaries a century before then. The military reforms carried out in the Ottoman Empire had accentuated the role of a new type of officer, often of lower social origin and more open to ideas that were developing in the Western world. The Balkan wars had significantly shifted from a multiethnic and multireligious Ottoman Empire to a Muslim core.

With most of the Christian population having already left the Empire after the Balkan Wars, a redefinition of Ottoman politics was in place with a greater emphasis on Islam as a binding force.

All of the above was quoted directly from this website following a few links. Highlights mine.

70.109.94.110 18:31, 17 January 2007 (UTC)Charles M.70.109.94.110 18:31, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit]

Hi and welcome to editing this page. I'm sorry you feel that history is being rewritten. I'm also pleased to note you give respect to scholarly intercourse. Unfortunately, this talk page is not really the right place to argue the rights and wrongs of the dhimmi concept in general. Its purpose is to discuss how we can work together to improve the article. The article must be as objective as possible and drawn from reliable sources, which in this case means mainly from the works of academic historians. I'm sure everyone here will respect your knowledge of the history of Bulgaria. Does this knowledge give you any leads for history books/articles that cover the ground you have mentioned? Preferably but not necessarily in English? Thanks. Itsmejudith 12:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the anon in the opinion that this article does not represent Dhimmi as the weapon of Cultural imperialism that it is. No info is given about how many native cultures and languages where wiped out in North and East Africa. The way it grinds down the number of non-muslims in a given area with both CARROT(paying taxes but now getting services, being able to speak in your defence in court) and STICK (threats of both state and non-state violence). I can easily see that could be seen as Historical revisionism (negationism) by family of victims of this policy.Hypnosadist 17:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Hypnosadist. My problem with your argument and anon's is that it cuts across such a huge swathe of history. No doubt things were sometimes very bad. But at other times they was better. The paper by al-Qattan shows that in the period he was researching dhimmis were allowed to speak in their defence in court, indeed frequently chose to go to the Islamic courts for cases that could have been resolved in their own courts. I can myself see why the memory should still be preserved in this way in eastern Europe. But as an English person should I still harbour a grudge against the Scandinavians for their rape and pillage in the 8th-11th centuries? Or against the Germans because of the hardships they inflicted on us in the second world war? Itsmejudith 10:31, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Two major points, i'm not against the germans but i'm violently opposed to Nazism. Second "things were sometimes very bad" is the attitude i'm talking about. Also Dhimmi laws where still in effect well after the end of transatlanic slave trade, but i'd like you to say to a decendant of a slave that they shouldn't harbour a grudge (i wouldn't). AND the final point is this is not a historic concept but one that is still used in islamic law.Hypnosadist 11:52, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Things were sometimes very bad and somethimes things were very good. The muslim rule in Spain was even called a "golden age". Also see La Convivencia. Many Jews also found dhimmitude way better than living under Christian rule. // Liftarn

Agreed. Many Jews and Christians thrived within the dhimma. At other times nations exploited the dhimmi system to persecute minorities, no doubt. Bernard Lewis looks on the Dhimmi matter as something that was kind and tolerant at times, very much so when compared to what Christians did to Jews, heretics and Muslims. To some people, anything that doesn't condemn Islam completely is "PC". There were times when Jews considered their environment within Muslim nations as a shelter, relative to their treatment under catholics. Here's a historic event I'd say is notably worse than anything the Islamic empires ever produced: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_inquisition . Shams2006 15:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

1)Ah yes the standard arguement Christians are as bad (if not worse), me like most of the world, are not Christian so that is a meaningless statment. La Convivencia was the best culture in Europe at the time and joint with the Aztecs and Chinese on the world scale. Yet at the same time conditions in the Yemen, Sudan, India, Albania etc are much much worse for non-muslims. All i'm asking for is that Dhimmi is not only illustrated with the La Convivencia.Hypnosadist 16:55, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

2)The next bit of "logic" that living as a dhimmi was better than being killed by Catholics durring Spanish_inquisition means that it must of been good. No it allowed them a slightly better chance to survive, which the Jews wisely took.

3)A final bit of History, the Spanish_inquisition was a series of religously motivated murders, torture and other hate crimes affecting around 1 million people. It was brutal but in historical terms very short in comparison to the Arab slave trade that lasted 1400 years before being mostly stopped by Britain (and later other european powers) and involved a minimum of 25 million slaves. Hope that helps with worse events by Islamic empires. Hypnosadist 17:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The anon editor here saying that Dhimmitude was one of the worst events in history. If scholars characterize that same event as being considerate compared to what Christians did, then it can't really be that bad, can it? As someone said here, what Jews called the 'golden age' during the middle ages actually happened while they lived under Muslim rule. Slavery has existed since the first human settlements, and only started to be abolished in the early 1800s in England and France. Before then it was widely practiced in Europe, and was instrumental in Europe's development. In Africa, Muslims neither invented the practice, nor did they promote it. It was a pre-existing condition which they did not ban. Nobody banned slavery until the 1800s. The Spanish Inquisition was an example. Look at how Rome treated heretics and blasphemers. Check out an American meuseum on the torture devices that were employed to execute accused 'witches'. All I'm saying is that Dhimmi wasnt the monstrosity revisionist christians would say it was. Shams2006 01:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course it can be that bad, if it was (and is) comparable to what Christians did. What (primarily) the catholic church did was in reality no different than Holocaust, and said church has received (and still receive) wide criticism for its actions. Your logic is backwards. "It's not worse than many other things - ergo it isn't bad". That's flawed logic. The correct conclusion would be: "It is everybit as bad as what the other part did, and therefore a part of the worst actions performed by humans against humans". The "Golden Age" for jews were not a golden age per se. It was not a good period. It was just a less-bad period than other periods. But none-the-less still a bad period. Slavery in Europe was abolished with the rise of Christianity and was replaced with serfdom (related to slavery, but none-the-less not slavery). Slavery reentered the Christian world in the 15th century through slavetrading with muslims. This comeback of slavery was originally banned by the Pope but evidently nobody listened - incl. later popes. Slavery is promoted by muslims since the Qu'ran is actively supporting slavery and even encouraging it - even encouraging sex with (female) slaves (Sura 23, verse 5 and 6). What happened in the West with "heretics" and "witches" was obviously a great crime against humanity. And it has been admitted and apologies have been given. Except for the muslim world. The muslims actively refuse to apologize for anything, claiming it's not particularly bad - even to the level of saying muslim slavery is good. Dylansmrjones 11:12, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I am the former "anonimous" who started this thread. I would like to apologize for the overly emotional tone of my previous posting. Judging by some of the responses, I think I failed to make the main point I was trying to communicate, so let me try to clarify it briefly. (1) The issue at hand is, in fact, Dhimmi as cultural imperialism. It is about systematic attrition of all "other" cultures by the dominant Islamic culture. Today, there is a widespread consensus that cultural imperialism is wrong and damaging to its subjects no matter who is practicing it. (2) Whether other people (e.g. Jews in Spain) fared well or not under the Dhimmi system is completely off topic. With this kind of logic, one can argue that slavery in America was a positive and benign system - surely, a black slave fared much better with a white, well-educated and civilized american plantation owner than her sister who was a slave in Africa? You can easily see that this is a slippery slope. There are some things that are universally understood today to be bad - slavery, Nazism, and Communism are among them. My point was that Dhimmi belongs in the same set of "universally bad" systems. (3) Unlike Nazism, which is history, and Communism, which is almost history (if one doesn't count North Korea and Cuba), Dhimmi is the law of the land in every Muslim country today. How vigorously it is being enforced is not the point. The point is, over 1 billion people don't seem to see anything wrong in a system that divides it's subjects into classes based on their religion and culture. The issue with this article is not about facts - the facts are very well established - it is about moral relativism and reluctance to accept that some things in human history are plain bad. Plague, slavery, Nazism, Communism and Dhimmi all fall into this category. --Maverick61 21:58, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Dhimmi system has been abolished for almost 200 years, and isn't practiced any longer. Arguably Saudi Arabia might be considered to resemble that system, but even there the practices of collecting Jizyah etc no longer exists. Remember that Arabs aren't the only Muslims in the world, and even in the vast majority of the Middle East (Jordan, Syria, etc) Islamic shariah is no longer practiced. I'm afraid you're superimposing your knowlege of the Middle Ages on our contemporary world and applying stereotypes. This is ignorance. Particularly dangerous ignorance, considering this kind of thing has 25% of Americans believing all Arab-Americans should be put in internment camps (according to Discovery/NY Times polls) and 45% believe they all need to carry special identification cards.Shams2006 15:26, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Not true. The Dhimmi-system is being practiced everywhere in the muslim countries and even in some non-muslim countries (like France). In Egypt the dhimmi-system is still thriving (at least it was still in use in 2006). The Dhimmi-system has _not_ been abolished - nor has slavery in islam. Dylansmrjones 11:12, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Er, do you have a reliable source for the statement that the Dhimmi system is practised in France? If not, perhaps we can move on. Itsmejudith 21:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

To answer the above statement, Saudi Arabia is 100% Muslim, this is the law. Non-Muslims can only stay for a short time,3 days I believe was the rule. No one, not even foreign military personel protecting their nation, are able to practice non-Muslim religions. Non-Muslim populations, even in the birthplace of Christ, are low and getting lower as more choose to emmigrate and get out of Dodge.

Correct Muslims are in other parts of the world. China has a Muslim population. Do you see them being able to collect taxes from the Communist Party? No, the Communist leaders are in charge and have the power. Pakistan gets worker remittance sent back home from those working in the west and India. So this majority Muslim nation gets foreign aid and money from the non-Muslims, modern day poll tax on Christians, Jews, and Hindus?

Muslims in America live in peace. How else can some of the women walk around with head scarfs and not be made to pay a special jizyah tax for the right to wear it? When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Americans do not ask any religious group to dress differently so they may be easily identified. And we do not like our women publicly subjugated. Amazingly they do this themselves, do they like the attention of looking exotic? Many, if not most Arab-Americans are Christian. They have been living peacefully in America years before September 11th. They are American because they choose to be American and not "keep it real." No one wants these fine Christian or Jewish Arabs locked away because they are hard working and contribute to our society. It is ashame the actions of a few has tarnished their repution, if the Times poll you quote is correct, and all Arabs are lumped together. Islamofacism has brought this about, not America.

Someone erased my post on this talk page. Either a dhimmi to be or a Muslim. I think that says a lot about what dhimmitude really means. The just of my post was that the Inquisition was a direct result of 700 years of colonial oppression of the Spanish people by Muslims. If you have a problem with the truths that I post then say it up front and don't cowardly erase my posts. If you are the one that did it then fess up.Cestusdei 22:58, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:Talk pages, Wikipedians generally oppose the use of talk pages just for the purpose of partisan talk about the main subject. Wikipedia is not a soapbox; it's an encyclopedia. In other words, talk about the article, not about the subject. It's only the habits we encourage that keep Wikipedia from turning into a slanging match.

The purpose of a talk page is to help to improve the contents of the article in question. Questions, challenges, excised text (due to truly egregious confusion or bias, for example), arguments relevant to changing the text, and commentary on the main page are all fair play.

Please try to stay on the task of creating an encyclopedia. You can chat with folks on their user talk pages, and should resolve problems with articles on the relevant talk pages, but please do not take discussion into articles (i.e.Discussion forums). There are a number of early-stage projects that attempt to use a wiki for discussion and debate.

You may also assume good faith and avoid incivility. Cheers. -- Szvest 10:13, 14 September 2006 (UTC) ^{Wiki me up ®}

So if its just about talk why are both sides not removed? Hypnosadist 12:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Do you refer to Maverick61 in contrast? If yes than i invite you to have a look at Cestusdei's contribs and block log to have a clearer idea. Read the second comment of Maverick61 as well. -- Szvest 15:34, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that we should talk about the article, not the subject. My point was that in it's attempt to present "measured and balanced" information, this article has crossed the boundary between being objective and moral relativism. There is more than enough information to conclude that the Dhimmi system belongs to the same place in history as slavery, Nazism and Communism. Such conclusion is objective and not inflamatory. No American or German that I know would consider the above statements about slavery and Nazism insulting or inflamatory. History is what history is. Objectivity does not require lack of moral judgement.--Maverick61 02:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

In response to Shams2006 - Don't know about Dhimmi being abolished 200 years ago - it was in full force and effect in Bulgaria until 1878. Here is a good overview of the current state of affairs when it comes to the Dhimmi system:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?t=7995&sid=3857e31a06cd07991b145abbb9193fd2.

I fully agree with Shams2006 - the current wave of virulent Islam does not help to uphold the image of Muslims anywhere. The same happened to Germans after WWII. Germans solved the problem by completely denouncing Nazism and making sure that a thing like this can never happen again in Germany. Most people respect them for that.--Maverick61 02:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

If you look at the blog mentioned above (faithfreedom.org) the articles on dhimmi are drawn entirely from Bat Ye'or. We are back to the same problem of finding good historical sources for information. Even on the question of objectivity and moral judgement, it is not up to us to take a stance. All we can do here is report fairly and in a balanced way the findings of historians. Itsmejudith 14:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

I add this topic because people here mess etymology with meaning. In english hotel, host, hostage and hospital do not mean the same thing but have a common latin origin : hospes, host in english. I re-introduced the triliteral option for dhimmi because all arabic words are built on that base, see wiki article on triliteral Etymology speaks on the origin of the word, not on its meaning. --Golan 11:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, etymology and current meaning are different things. We do not have a source for the etymology. I understand that Arabic words are based on triliteral roots but unless you have a source, guessing that "dhamma" and "dhimmi" share an etymology is original research and not allowed in the encyclopedia. Itsmejudith 15:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually they are completely different words . Damma starts with "dal"(8th alphabet) & spoken "dm", while dhimma with "DZHal"(9th alphabet) (A whole consonant is different , in a word that is made up of 2 consonants only). They are not similar words like hostage and hospital . Dmma means blame while dhima means responsiblity . Dhimmi means responsiblity of muslims . Jizya (meaning reward) is what they pay muslims for fulfilling the responsiblity of their protection. F.a.y.^{تبادله خيال /c} 19:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not gessing, it's simply constating the triliteral those words are made of. Please give your source explaining the triliteral as you say (or guess), and other dh-m-m and d-m-m derived. If you disagree with this etymology, then give yours but not a translation, that's not etymology--Golan 23:46, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

What you're adding is original research, not allowed by policy (see WP:OR). The fact that an Arabic speaker (F.a.y.) seems to think you're wrong casts more doubt on your conclusions. Please find a source that explicitly says that dhimmi and dhamma share an etymology and you can add it. - Merzbow 01:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

F.a.y., what do you think about the most recent change to this section? I'm inclined to see it as original research also. - Merzbow 00:05, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

If you consider opening a dictionnary is a personnal research, then this whole encyclopedy can be erased. What I explain is verifiable, the sources cited. i removed the translation which is not at all ethymology. Gollan 06:43, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Please put any translation of Dhimmi in the relevant section. Etymology deals with the root of the words. I cited here two different arabic dictionnaries explaining the root and their derivatives. Pls give a relevant etymolgic source contradicting what I've written, not such a free removal.Gollan 13:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

According to current text "dhimmi" is a word that has two parts, the first of them meaning dispraise, vilify, etc., and the second (كن) purportedly meaning "to cover or to conceal". I can say that such "second part" doesn't exist in the term. كن transliterated stands for "kn". By the way "kn" doesn't mean "cover or conceal"; if you add the harakah (brief vowel "u" as in "super"), usually omitted in modern script) it's the imperative of verb "to be". So the etymology is false. Since the links doesn't work I wonder where such a nonsense has come from. --Filius Rosadis 19:05, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

You are right Ibn Rushd, I put a wrong letter for the second part, copy paste error sorry. I meant 27th letter ya ي meaning to coer/to onceal and which is the final letter in dhimmi of course. You should have corrected by yourself my post instead of erasing it. I correct this caracter and put the etymology back. Many thx for your info. Gollan 21:53, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

So you disagree just with the end of my statement, complain you can't verify pretexting the link is not accesible but you remove the whole statement. Then you put back and extract of a dictionnary that doesn't give any etymology, but a translation. And you argue about nonsense...82.254.20.129 20:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

What? Now you seriously mean that "The second part is ي , (ya) that means to cover or to conceal."? That's even more ridiculous!

It's not that I just disagree with the end of your statement. I can read and write Arabic so I tell you it's completely wrong. I don't need to verify this, but I am curious about where such a nonsense come along. It's a plain lie (not your fault, since you must have picked it from somewhere, but you should've asked an Arabic speaker before editing, we have many in Wikipedia).

On the other hand, the only working link you added, [1], doesn't support your purported etymology, it just defines words without suggesting any connection between dhamam and dhimmi, and states nothing about etymology.

As for the first part of your statement, it's also wrong as explained before. There's an entry about False etymology which contains this interesting explanation: "Incorrect etymologies have sometimes been created for purposes of propaganda. The opponents of the medieval Dominicans joked that Dominicanes was derived from domini canes (“God’s dogs”). A more malicious example was the derivation of Slav from slave, which was used by the Nazis as a pseudo-linguistic justification for some of their atrocities against Slavs." This particular false etymology of dhimmi has to do basically with islamophobia. --Filius Rosadis 22:10, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

This comes from http://dictionary.sakhr.com company highly specialized in translation based in Arabia, strangely no more reachable, i did anyway some hardcopy of the screens .

The reference http://dictionary.al-islam.com shows that the root dhamim that exist in dhimmi always means a fault/vilification/disapproval. I don't suggest anything, that's a fact.

Etymology is studying the roots of the words, hence it doesn't give any information on the meaning of the word itself as I stated for hospital and hostage, it just shows how the word is built.

By the way the etymology for slave/slav is correct, i don't say that by slavophobia, i'm half slav. The riciculous play on word for dominicans is not etymology, be serious.

I went to my article just citing what I found, and i honestly admit I've been surprised that what I found using an arabic dictionnary is the same as another person wrote using the triliteral on his side.

I've been really surprised that all reference to triliteral in this article a month ago were systematically erased, while another article explaining the triliteral and the etymology for kitab has no problem, less sensitive perhaps.

Has this blindness on etymology something to do with islamism ? Gollan 22:51, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

It is not a question of eitherislamophobia or islamism. Simply, the point remains: we do not have any reliable source for the etymology of "dhimmi" so there is no justification for including a section with that heading. The translation of the word from Wehr on the other hand is properly sourced and can go in. If there is an authoritative etymological dictionary for Arabic and if it has an entry for "dhimmi" then that would constitute a proper source.Itsmejudith 23:33, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

See my comments in the meaning section. Wehr's dictionary organizes words by roots. This always involves etymological decisions. In fact Wehr decides to list dhimmi and dhimma as nouns derived from the basic root dh.m.m. as found in dhamma 'to blame'. To eradicate this reference to the root verbal form seems senseless. One can question Wehr's analysis that dhimmi and dhamma are nominal forms of dhamma - and if someone has a serious source on this, let them bring it forward - but to ignore Wehr's judgement on this is misguided. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Eagleswings (talk • contribs) 13:06, 11 January 2007 (UTC). Sorry - I forgot to sign this. Thanks for the correction. Eagleswings 12:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning

The Meaning of Dhimmi is not derived from the word to blame, to blame is pronounced Dhamma, in the arabic language, changing one letter may change the meaning of the word, even give it the exact opposite of what it truly means. Dhimma ( third letter is i not a) doesn't have a specific meaning I can think of in the english language, but the closest meaning tends to be translated as (responsibility), since it was muslims responsibility to protect the dhimmis living under their rule.

Dhimma & dhamma are totally different words . I dont know how people mix up two rot words & are still considered scholars . The etymology sec should definitely be revised . F.a.y.^{تبادله خيال /c} 21:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Without doubt, Dhamma is not the same as "Dhimma". The concerned person in the first case is "Dhamim" [-+ Ugly] and the concerned one in the second case is "Dhimmiy" [Dhimma is like "compact" and "dept/obligation" or maybe "compact by obligation"].

The Dhimmy is -in my eyes, though- one of the civilized sides in islam. It grant the freemdom of belief in an islamic society. And they were very respected in the islam, Mohammed said there about: who harmed a dhimi, has harmed me too. ["من آذى ذميا فقد آذاني]. The fact that the Dhimmi's had to pay special taxes is -in my eyes, though- normal, since they don't pay the "zakat" or "Sadaqat" which are obligated for the muslims. The article is by the way much too long; The article should be separated as long as we don't have to pay special taxes to create other pages. Read3r 18:30, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

These comments are not relevant to the question of the accuracy of the etymological notes. Roots in Arabic are triliteral. The triliteral root here is dh-m-m. Both dhamma (verb) and dhimma (noun) are derived from this root. A comparable example is the root d-q-q which gives the verb daqqa 'to be thin' and the noun diqqa 'thinness'. Likewise the root sh-d-d gives rise to the verh shadda 'to become firm, vigorous', and the noun shidda 'firmness, strength, power'. These objections seem POV-motivated: the comment that the dhimma is 'one of the civilized sides in Islam' is just irrelevant to etymology. In any case, the history of these words goes back to pre-Islamic times, and the etymological link between dhamma and dhimma has nothing to do with whether Islam is good or bad. I have removed the dispute flag for this section, because no relevant objections have been made to its content, and no cited authorities have been given for the proposals to change the section.Eagleswings 07:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Etymologies, even those given in etymological dictionaries, are often just educated guesses and are frequently subject to revision by later scholars. I note that you give your own knowledge of Arabic as Level 1. Is this section disputed? Yes. I am putting the tag back on. Itsmejudith 14:57, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

@Eagleswings, we have two nouns in Arabic: "Dhimma" and "Dhamama". The second one means what you said. The named person from Dhimma is "Dhimmi", and the person from "dhamama" is "Dhamim". So you can clearly see that they are distinctive. The same letters which you call the "roots" can lead in many cases to misunderstandings when you consider the similarities of the letters as relationship with the meaning. "Mawla" can as example mean "the master" and "the slave/knight" in the same time another better example is the verb "Shaqqa". Even, if we would accept that the two names are related [which is unlikely], that doesn't mean they were used in that context [to blame]. The arab speaking people use the word "Dhimma" as serious personal impact or debt. by the way, you surely meant "Raqqa" by "daqqa" in your reply. Read3r 15:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I have the Dictionary in front of me. It writes about Dhamma and Dhimma and Dhimmi in p.360. On Dhimma it says:

"pl. dimam protection, care, custody, coventant of protection, compact; responsibility, answerableness; financial obligation, liability, debt; in violability, security of life and property; safegurd, guaruntee, security; conscience.... ahl ad-dhimma: the free non-Muslim subjects living in Muslim countries who, in return for paying the capital tax, enjoyed protection and safety;..."

There is no connection whatsoever made between dhamma and dhimma. I suggest an admin blocks the editor who added this. --Aminz 04:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Strange policy to ask for blocking a contributor. I hope this pretended encyclopedia leaves at least a free speech to any contributor who has arguments to give even discutables, we're here to discuss. Please, no Redeker policy. It's not here question of the meaning of Dhimma but its origin. By the way, how to translate in one or several distincts words a legal status existing only under islam and arabic language ? The French could then say that 'code noir' means protection, because it meant to protect black slaves against physical abuse . --Golan 17:20, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Amiz is quite mistaken. It is absolutely clear that the Arabic scholar Hans Wehr lists dhimma and dhimmi in his dictionary as nouns derived from the triliteral root found dh.m.m as found in the verb dhamma 'to blame', for they are all listed as part of the one entry. As Wehr explains in his introduction (in my edition p. XIII) the verb 'in the perfect of the base' is lsted first - this is dhamma. The nominal forms follow (e.g. including dhamm, dhimma, dhimmi).

Of course, it is entirely normal for derived forms to develop distinctive meanings. Just because for a native speaker two words seem to be 'unrelated' doesn't prove anything about etymology. A walrus is derived from whale + horse. The fact that for a native English speaker walrus now seems unrelated to either 'horse' or 'whale' is quite irrelevant. Etymology is about the history of words, and what is absolustely clear is that Wehr treats dhimmi and dhimma as nominal forms derived from the basic root dh.m.m as found in dhamma.

Note also that one's native knowledge of Arabic is irrelevant to the question of passing judgement on issues of etymology. Being a native speak of English doesn't qualify you to determine whether the word thimble comes from the word thumb, or whether skirt is related to shirt (they are) or whether 'rosemary' is derived from the word 'rose' (it isn't). However that such an experienced lexicographer (dictionary maker) as Wehr has clearly made a decision that dhimma and dhimmi are based upon the same root as dhamma. - well this is his view, and he knows what he is doing.

Unless someone has a better authority than Wehr on the etymology of this word, the original references should stay in.

Sadly, what this is all REALLY about is ideologically-driven disputes about the dhimma, and whether it was a BAD or a GOOD thing. Because some deem the etymological link between dhamma and dhimma as a BAD thing, then they fight against the reference, propose that an editor should be blocked etc etc. This is just POV editorial politics. This whole article is bedevilled with this kind of POV approach, and its credibility as a reference on this important topic is lowered as a result. Eagleswings 12:56, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

In english hotel, host, hostage and hospital do not mean the same thing but have a common latin origin : hospes, host in english. Was Dhimmi suposely meaning protection, used before for the same purpose outside this legal status ? Was it used for instance to qualify some protection of citizens ? Is this word used outside this legal status ? What are the other arabic words with the same triliteral root dh-m-m apart dhimma and dhamma ? --Golan 18:04, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bat Yeor

Is she authentic enough that almost half of the article comes from her pen . F.a.y.^{تبادله خيال /c} 21:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually it is not important whether she is authentic or notable. The fact is she is not a historian and therefore not acceptable as a main source of facts for a history article. The main task now for this article is to rewrite it using only proper historical sources. It helps if they are written in English but they should ideally not just be from Western countries. Another question, that we discussed here a long time ago, is restructuring the article, because it is not just that Bat Ye'or is used as a source for one-off facts but also that the article as it is at present follows her structure. Itsmejudith 23:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I actually tried to show her direction of views in the section "Dhimmi in the literature". BTW, why was that section removed? I think it was good to inform the readers that "Dhimmitude" is actually a myth according to Lewis. --Aminz 00:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we can always restructure the article. --Aminz 00:18, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

this article needs to be redone from top to bottom. the entire thing reeks of bias--not only factually, but the semantics of it look to pardon an apartheid-like policy.

it's one thing to be politically or religiously motivated--it's another to make a sincere attempt to gloss over a historically documented fact.

i would enjoy an expert to categorically define the term and erase the politically correct semantics of the article.

Unfortunately dhimmitude is not consigned to history. Arrow740 00:19, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Bat Ye'or is a prominent historian. Arrow740 00:23, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

She is not a prominent historian. She makes observations and her views academcially are as legitimate as the views of most who have posted in this discussion. She is considered credible by those looking for any source to back their views. Nokhodi 04:47, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Comparing her credibility that of those who post here completely misses the point. We are lay encyclopedia editors doing what Wikipedia calls "source research". Everything we add must be based on the work of bona fide scholars doing original research. There is no use discussing this point any more except on the basis of a close reading of WP policies and guidelines. Itsmejudith 10:50, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Judith what is wrong with her "method"? as that accusation makes no sense to me as no academic has disproved any of the facts she has made public or the translations of documents she has done. WP policies and guidelines clearly show she is a good source as compared to say american academics that take 20 million dollars to promote Islam.Hypnosadist 19:39, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Report fairly and in a balanced way?

Itsmejudith says above "Even on the question of objectivity and moral judgement, it is not up to us to take a stance. All we can do here is report fairly and in a balanced way the findings of historians".

I have a huge problem with this point of view. Take a look at the articles on Nazism, Racism and Cultural Imperialism. Neither of the three articles seeks to be "fair" in covering the point of view of the people who practice nazism, racism and cultural imperialism, despite knowing for a fact that such points of view exist. Why? Because nazism, racism and cultural imperialism are universally considered bad. Oh horror - I just made a moral judgement. And so did, apparently, the authors of these three articles. And so did billions of people worldwide. The issue is settled. Period.

Judith, would you care to edit the article on Nazism to make it more "fair and balanced" to the Neo-Nazis? And if not, why on earth are you trying to do this here?--Maverick61 09:19, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Maverick, I did not use the word "fair" and I used the word "balanced" in relation to the professional opinions of historians. I am not trying to edit this article to be more fair and balanced to any group, or even to be more fair and balanced full stop. I am trying to help it to reflect the views of the authorities in the field. We could discuss this further but it would have to be on the basis of WP:NPOV (especially the sections "Religion" and "Morally offensive views"(, WP:RS (especially 9.1 History), and at WP:V. I had a look at the article on Nazism. I don't see any moral judgements in it. It is a good illustration of how to stick to the facts and allow readers to draw their own conclusions; however it is rather poorly referenced. Itsmejudith 14:04, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Judith, sorry for twisting your words. I think we now have something we can both agree on: the article on Nazism is a good, fair and balanced way to report history and stick to the facts. All I would like to see is a Dhimmi article that works the same way, and, yes, it would be nice if it was better referenced. Agreed?--Maverick61 21:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

BTW the analogy bw Dhimmi, Nazism & Racism is badly wrong , & is based upon ignorance {& arrogance). The concept of Dhimma can more exactly be equated with the concept of Goyim, Heathen or Dalit/Maleecha . In no religious scripture will you see any rights of these people, only Islam gives them rights to live . Canaanites, American Indians, Buddhists in India .... they are all dead . Goy or Heathen articles are much more balanced & fair . And they are definitely not based on the works of anti-semites or anti-christians . Unlike this , here the whole article is based on hate-inciting works of rabid Islamophobes . F.a.y.^{تبادله خيال /c} 20:34, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

"American Indians," this would imply America is a theocracy which of course it is not. To explain, Christianity is simply not the reason there are fewer Native Americans in the US, besides the native americans in the US, ascribed in law, have equal rights with their fellow Americans. The same cannot be said of many natives in Islamic countries.... unless of course, they become muslims. And well, I fail to understand how the status of 'native americans' in the US has any relevence to this article. JHJPDJKDKHI! 06:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

F.a.y. read my previous posts: I am not making an analogy between Dhimmi and Nazism. I am stating that Dhimmi is a form of Cultural Imperialism. It is widely accepted today that cultural imperialism is damaging and wrong, no matter who perpetrates it. As far as ignorance is concerned, my grand-grandparents were dhimmi under the Ottoman empire, and it so happens that they were still alive when I was a teen... I am talking from first-hand witness accounts heard by me personally.--Maverick61 21:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Maverick I do see where you are coming from, but an article must be based on objective sources. Unfortunately your memories of conversations with your great-grandparents don't count. They are oral history. If you had written them down and got them published then perhaps they could have been cited. That's how it goes. It's only been in editing this page that I've learnt how rigorous Wikipedia sourcing has to be. Also, of course your family memories could only ever be evidence for one part of the world and one period of time. This article has to cover many different countries and many centuries. There are serious historiographical problems in doing that. The evidence we have of the distant past is quite different from the evidence of the last century. Are there any books, based on historical research, that you would like to see used here? Itsmejudith 22:18, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

PS in relation to your comment before last, Maverick, which I missed. No apology necessary. Yes, we can agree on the basis for moving this article forward. Itsmejudith 14:24, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

The repeated use of the phrase 'Fair and balanced' makes me nervous. Fox News uses that phrase as a euphamism for their Christian conservative pro-republican portrayals/revisionism of reality. I don't think we want that kind of tactic employed in editing this article. If we're using that phrase for what it means in english rather than 'american', we need to be clear on that. Shams2006 16:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

maverick, dhimmi is not properly compared to cultural imperialism. I wonder if that's even an appropriate analogy for what your grandparents experienced - did they speak arabic and wear robes and have little recollection of bulgarian non-Islamic influence? I agree with Fay, compare apples to apples. Nazism and Apartheid were systems based on race. Compare dhimmi to goyim, etc. and from sources that cite historical accountsOizfar 16:05, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

It just didn't work in bulgaria, which like Balkans remained a disputed teritory and look at the legacy of peace this has left that area of the world. Where as if you look at north and east africa, pakistan etc you can see how effective dhimmi was in destroying local culture, religion and language(particluarly in africa). We have lot of evidence of the simple facts that non-muslim countries where invaded dhimmi was applied and now they are muslim countries, the reason we are given is that these people happily converted (without compulsion), BS and every one knows it. Dhimmi is text book cultural imperialism, most empires export their culture accidently as the defeated peoples try to deal with their new rulers. Dhimmi uses taxation and increased rights and greater security offered if you become a muslim to deliberately chip away a non-muslim cultures year on year, century after century. Only those with the strongest cultural bonds last more that 100 years under these rules, then the rules on Apostates (ie that they should be killed) stops people moving away from islam back to their original faith. The only way you can improve on dhimmi is by adding an advertising campain against non-muslims. The only thing comparable in history for the distuction of native cultures is Catholic church's activities in South and Central america which where at least equal if not as bad (but this was convert or die force not cultural imperialism). Islam started by distorying another religions shrine and claiming it as its own (mecca) and imposing its beliefs and has continued in this way for 1400 years hence why it now covers a large area and has 1.6 billion followers, this is the fact of the matter.Hypnosadist 17:45, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Hypno, we really ought not to be using the article talk page to present our own PsOV. Having said that, I just wanted to point out that the spread of Islam in Africa happened for a great variety of reasons and over a very long period of time indeed (7th century until today). You might also want to think about how and why Christianity spread so quickly in sub-Saharan Africa. (The novel Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe deals with this in a brilliant and very readable way.) And there are many people today who follow one of the monotheistic religions and at the same time are proud of their ancient cultural traditions, whether in Africa, Latin America, Australia, United States .... Itsmejudith 21:52, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

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I guess I just want to add another perspective to this discussion on Dhimmi. The "Islamic State" as used in all of the historical contexts here(ie: Khalifa Rashidoon, Omayads, Fatimids, Ottomans, etc) viewd Muslims as citizens of the state and non-Muslims as non-citizens. I won't argue about the excesses that have been committed by various regimes against dhimmis, but put in the context I offer here might bring things into better focus. The wearing of a yellow or blue belt, or black or red hat becomes synonmous with visas, green cards, etc. If you think not, then you have never experienced the treatment readily offered to those who are of non anglo-saxon or white origin in this country who lack citizen status, or worse yet are undocumented. Citizenship has always had preference over non-citizenship in any society. How different societies treated their non-citizen populations would make for an interesting study in comparison to the dhimmi's relationship to their contemporary Islamic rulers. Of course if we do view the status of a dhimmi as being synonamous with non-citizenship we begin to take away the some of the "evilness" many of us would like to portray as being synonamous with Islam. In order for me to be a valid citizen of the United States, I must make a pledge of alegience to the Religion of this state, which is secularism. Ibrahim

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Lets have some more facts then (it won't work but hey!)! Dhimmi's are not non-citzens in a far off land, they are the subject of invasion in their country and then forced to pay for the right to draw breath. They are not illegal imigrents or undocumented as the PC term is, its their country! You want to know what dhimmi is like, its exactly the same as the war on Iraq then the americans charge all iraqies 5% of the yearly income to protect them from terrorism, and there is no iraqy government only direct rule from washington. And i bet you don't like the iraq war to start with.Hypnosadist 00:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

PS secularism (and governments enforcing it)is why mosques don't get car bombed in the west but they do in iraq! and its not a religion thats why all the western muslims on this site can go and pray right now if they wanted in many different flavours of Islam.Hypnosadist 00:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

no society in the world provides social services without taxation. No society in the world embraces minorities without them becoming full citizens and swearing allegiance to the state. It's the mark of a truly advanced society that it would, as a theocracy, allow other religions to exist completely independently and even enforce their own sacred law. I would love to see the vatican allow Muslims to come in and set up a little shariah state in some corner. What you deliberately ignore is that Dhimmis are free from the religious obligation to pay zakat, which is similiar in amount to jizya. What you deliberately perpetuate is the lie that all or even most lands that existed under Islamic rule did so as the result of offensive conquest. Wikipedia is not the place for either my characterization or hypnosadist’s. It’s telling that the enemies of Islam are so desperate to wage smear campaigns that even minutae like this is not spared.Oizfar 15:51, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

No obligation to pay Jizah exist (unless it is applied by force), thats the fact you fail to comprehend. You have no idea how i can find these things offensive so you can have no idea what i'm going to talk about. Which of the zero muslims in the vatican need shariah law? Ps can i go to see the black stone as it was my faiths' before you stole it off us?Hypnosadist 20:02, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

---

This addresses the contention that the definition should not be included because the condition has been long since abolished. The dhimmi-ist condition does exist today, though the term may be techically obsolete. Christians in Moslem countries are universally forbiddent to proseltize, though this is a condition of their faith -to "share" the faith. This is perhaps a violation of the United Nations charter relating to freedom of religion. But even if consistent with the charter, per se, it still violates religious freedom.

[edit] Why not just state what the word means in its common day use?

Dhimmi is a non muslim subjecting to the idears of a muslim. Dhimmitude is the behaviour of a non muslim subjecting to the idears of muslims.

[edit] Cleanup LEAD

The lead paragraph is too long for an article explaining an arabaic word and it uses. Please can the local editors cleanup. FrummerThanThou 21:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, maybe limit the intro to the definition of Dhimmi and add a section that disscusses who dhimmis were and the rights they were allowed freakytiki34166.82.144.14 01:13, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

A few sentences is not enough. See WP:Lead--Aminz 07:12, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Influence of Race on Dhimmi Status

The article includes the entry:

Negative attitudes towards Dhimmis existed .. The negative attitudes however rarely had any ethnic or racial components

Could someone please clarify the apparent conflict between this and other claims of racial inclusiveness within Islamic jurisprudence and the well known practice of keeping black African slaves in some Islamic countries, which, I think, continued until recent times? Many thanks!

--Philopedia 01:15, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

The source for this statement is Bernard Lewis. The argument is that in those countries where slaves could be kept those slaves might not only include Black Africans but also people from other ethnic/racial groups. Well into the 20th century there were stories circulating in Europe of Arabs kidnapping and enslaving White people, especially women, as slaves. There is still slavery around the world today - debt bondage and other kinds - and it should be possible to find links to this in the encyclopedia.Itsmejudith 12:07, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

First Millions of white people were taken as slaves from the balkans and caucusses, are you saying that equal rights slavers are morally better that people who only bought black slaves because they were the only colour being sold by the Black and Arab Slave dealers on Africa's west coast? Secondly Judith what about ongoing real slavery (as opposed to working for money to eat) in the Sudan (under quranic authority) and human trafficing humans for the sex trade (which has nothing to do with dhimmi or islam), this is not about the colour of the slaves but the institution of slavery. Also a note; in jamaca a few black slaves who gained their freedom (from white britons) went on to own slaves of there own, does this mean that slavery in the america's has nothing to do with race? Of course not!Hypnosadist 14:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent changes

Many of them were discussed later:

• " Dhimmis have second-class citizen status."As Lewis says usage of this term to pre-modern Islam is improper as citizenship is modern, and the phrase of "second-class citizen status" has negative connotations which obscures the reality in pre-modern times.

• Dhimmi is abolished. Christians in Iran now go to military service. So everything should be in past.

• Removal of reliable sources and putting words in mouth of sources is not proper.

--Aminz 02:23, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree "second-class citizen" is too loaded of a term to use, but I think it's fair to use the term "legal and social inferiority", which is also said by Lewis. I also agree the article should be phrased in the past. Religious minorities are in fact mistreated in many Muslim countries today (i.e. the Bahai in Iran, Orthodox Christians in Turkey, Saudi Arabia, etc.), but only portions of the formalized system of dhimma survive, so it's not accurate to call them dhimmis. - Merzbow 03:25, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It's still part of Sharia. Either get sources saying that dhimmi is abolished or phrase it in the present. I'll give this a couple days. Arrow740 03:49, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Logically, you can't say that "dhimmis are" unless there are actual dhimmis. I can invent any code of law that I like, but I can't say that "people under my code of law are..." unless such people actually exist in the present. It can be argued that some people today live in a state of dhimmitude, which is a modern term that has a broader meaning, but not under the dhimma. - Merzbow 04:23, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Social and legal inferiority is fine. For abolishing of dhimmi, see Lewis 1984 pp. 62–66.--Aminz 08:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It's still in effect in Saudi Arabia, is it not? And elsewhere de facto? I'm sure under the Taliban it was explicit. Arrow740 09:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

We can see how scholarly sources put it. In past or in present. They put it in past, so should we do. --Aminz 10:02, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The article is about dhimma, not just the history of dhimma before 1984. Unfortunately Muslims are still oppressing minorities. Arrow740 23:15, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Dhimma is a specific legal relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims that encompasses many aspects. Some of these elements are present in some Muslim countries, but in no country are enough of them present to constitute the dhimma, and you will not find a reputable scholar or critic who will say so. - Merzbow 23:42, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I have removed these rambling and off-topic (respectively) apologetics[2]. There is no sense in rebutting that which is not alleged.Proabivouac 23:10, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

That's describtive. Lewis says: "In Islamic society hostility to the Jew is nontheological....It is rather the usual attitude of the dominant to the subordinate, of the majority to the minority, without additional theological and therfore psychological dimension that gives Christian anti-Semitism its unique and special character" --Aminz 07:08, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Proabivouac, what's the point. why are you removing the text? Is Lewis's description of Dhimmi apologetic?--Aminz 07:10, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

In order to be descriptive, something must first be comprehensible. For example, what is the phrase, "partly due to certain specific prejudices and humiliations." intended to impart?

And again, why rebut what is never said? Does any portion of the article allege that Dhimma is similar to Christian Anti-semitism? Barring such a comparison, the point is off-topic. This isn't a popularity contest between religions.

"why are you removing the text? Is Lewis's description of Dhimmi apologetic?"

Aminz, having seen the way you've editted article after article, there can be no question that your use of it is meant to be.Proabivouac 07:23, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Aminz should be commended for being a valuble wikipedia editor. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.15.12.211 (talk) 09:45, 5 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] al-Hibri

She is not a historian or scholar of Islamic studies. Her interpretation of hadith is no better than any other non-scholar, and she is not a reliable source. Arrow740 05:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

His research includes "Islamic Jurisprudence"[3] and the journal is reliable. Please do not remove sourced material before discussing it. --Aminz 06:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

It's a woman, and Robert Spencer's research includes jihad, but you won't let us use him in the Islam article. The journal she published in is a reliable source for it's field, law. "Islamic Jurisprudence" is not part of her training nor is it the field of the journal she published in. Arrow740 08:13, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Her expertise is clear from her homepage, the article she has published and the courses she has taught.[4] --Aminz 08:36, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

File an RfC. As long as she's in Spencer and Bat Ye'or are in. Teaching a class on something somewhere doesn't make you a reliable source on it. Being a consultant for the US government, now that's a qualification! Arrow740 08:37, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

according to that website, and he resume[5], she teaches courses on Islamic law and jurisprudence at universities and has given international lectures on islamic law. she also obtained the Fulbright Scholar Award from the University of Qatar, School of Shari'ah, in 2001. that's certainly good enough. i suggest you undo your mass removals. ITAQALLAH 08:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Well I do like this encyclopedia to be encyclopedic, but if we're allowing her, then the much more scholarly, qualified Spencer will be consulted frequently henceforth. Arrow740 08:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

And it looks like she was at that school of Sharia for 3 months. Hardly a doctorate! What's "international lectures" supposed to mean? Same goes for Spencer and Ibn Warraq. Arrow740 08:41, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Spencer has no degree on Islamic studies either. A master degree in early Christianity and furthermore his academic competence has been utterly rejected by Academic scholars. He doens't publish in peer-reviewed presses either. They are not comparable. --Aminz 08:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

the difference is, Spencer has no university qualifications or endorsements relating to Islamic studies (in this case, Islamic law and jurisprudence), whereas Hibri does. he does not teach courses at reputed universities relating to Islamic law and jurisprudence, whereas Hibri does. furthermore, Hibri's works on Islamic jurisprudence are endorsed by scholarly publications like NY university press, making her far more suitable than Spencer - who remains unqualified and unscholarly. ITAQALLAH 08:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

oh, and as Aminz says, Spencer has been criticized for his pseudo-scholarly work, whereas Hibri has not. ITAQALLAH 08:53, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

He's been criticised for bias not factual errors, were as religious leaders of a religion arn't at all biased in favour of that religion (thats sarcasm). The idea that anyone of faith can be unbiased towards their religion and its problems is a joke. PS pseudo-scholarly HAH who mentioned Esposito.Hypnosadist 09:10, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Hibri is not notable enough to have been criticized for anything. Nevertheless, I agree that she is notable enough for this article, so I will support the inclusion of that statement. - Merzbow 19:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

This is actually quite ludicrous. First, what wikipedia guideline says that groundless accusations of pseudo-scholarship bar someone from being a reliable source? No where. Lewis, the greater Islamic studies scholar, has also come under criticism, but he isn't barred. Esposito has been widely exposed as a fraud who conducts no original research, yet he's cited again and again. Teaching a course doesn't make one an expert. Grad students at schools with Islamic studies departments (Univ of Richmond doesn't seem to have one [6] [7]) do this as well! Grad students teach courses all the time, including upper division ones. Even undergrads do this occasionally. At a school which comes across as being as desperate as this one's, teaching a course on something means nothing. What is Azizah Y. al-Hibri (2003) supposed to mean anyway? What is the context? This woman is a highly educated person. In law and philosophy. She's dabbled in "Islamic jurisprudence" but has no training in it. Her university has indulged her by letting her try to teach a course in it. Great. They probably only looked at the Meccan suras. I'll have more to say elsewhere. Arrow740 04:13, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

All I gotta say is it cuts both ways. You just have to scroll into the archives to find the nuclear warfare conducted over the Ye'or material last year (egged on mostly by one user, granted, but he'll be back from his 'vacation' soon). While al-Hibri's credentials aren't ideal for this sort of thing, they are credentials. As I said back then, the subject of Dhimmi is not widely treated in academia, so to have a well-written article we can't be as picky about sources as we can and should in, say, Muhammad. - Merzbow 07:31, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

He might be back [8]. The anti-Semitism tipped me off. Arrow740 20:36, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Here's a suggestion: instead of trying to evaluate for ourselves which scholars are most reliable, we look instead at the quality of the publications. The major academic publishing houses are quite easily identifiable - Harvard, MIT, Oxford, Cambridge, Routledge, Sage... - and in any case of doubt we should stick to publications from those reliable houses. (The major journals are also published by identifiable houses, e.g. Taylor & Francis is the journal imprint for Routledge.)Itsmejudith 10:22, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dhimmitude in Saudi Arabia

I have read that Saudi Arabia is officially under Sharia, but also officially 100% Muslim. Should we confirm and mention that? Arrow740 20:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Until recently it had thousands of non-Muslim ex-pats. British and European professional and technical workers but also many lower paid workers from south and south east Asia. I believe fewer now, but surely still some?Itsmejudith 21:17, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

How many times do we have to go through this particular issue? The question of the dhimma is moot in Saudi Arabia as it has no non-Muslim citizens/subjects. Resident foreigners have never been treated as ahl al-dhimma, as far as I know. Palmiro | Talk 21:28, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Palmiro. Another point is that shari'a and the dhimmi rules were elaborated long before the modern nation-states existed with their written constitutions, laws of citizenship, passports, international treaties etc. So if Saudi Arabia really based itself 100% on the shari'a it wouldn't even exist as a separate entity.Itsmejudith 21:38, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying that sharia excludes the idea of a nation-state? My point is that everything in this article should be in present tense because dhimmitude is still part of sharia and sharia still exists in practice and in theory. Arrow740 22:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Shari'a still exists in practice but I'm not aware of the dhimma existing in practice anywhere. Of course, in relation to Judith's point, the whole Islamist edifice is an entirely modern (albeit deeply reactionary) movement pretending not to be, but that's by the bye. Ibn Saud himself showed a lively appreciation of the need for pragmatism when his ulama threatened to outlaw motor vehicles for his army (or so I remember reading, in a fairly trashy biography of the man it must be admitted).

Sorry, Arrow, I missed your point about sharia excluding the idea of the nation state. Most Islamists would most certainly say so, or to be precise, they would claim that the only nation to have any legitimacy in Dar al-Islam - the lands of Islam - is the Islamic nation. Indeed I think probably most ulama would agree with them in theory, though I'm by no means an expert on the issue. The word the Qur'an uses to describe the Muslim community - "umma" - is also the word used to mean "nation" in modern political discourse, but while Arab nationalists use it to refer to the Arab nation, for Islamists it must mean the Islamic nation. Palmiro | Talk 22:16, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

<reset>I'm responding to Itsmejudith's statement "So if Saudi Arabia really based itself 100% on the shari'a it wouldn't even exist as a separate entity." I don't see why that would be true. In any case shouldn't we use the present tense all over the place here? Aren't the Christians in Turkey dhimmis, if not de jure then certainly de facto? Arrow740 22:59, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

No, they certainly aren't, although they are indeed subject to religious discrimination. And I'm not sure to what extent it makes sense to speak of a legal status existing de facto but not de jure. In any case, you would need a reliable source, and I think you would be a while looking for one for that contention. Palmiro | Talk 23:37, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not proposing anything specific right now. Arrow740 23:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Arrow, it's just that as I understand it when the shari'a was established there were not really nation states as we define them today. The focus of the Islamic lawmakers was on the umma, the community of Muslim believers. If the Saudis really wanted to stick to the absolute letter of the shari'a they would logically have to dissolve their country into a wider caliphate. They would give Muslims from all regions equal rights in every respect, apply the dhimmi regulations to Christians and Jews and give virtually no rights at all to those not of Abrahamic religion. Their kings would have no authority. I don't think they're going to do this. As for Turkey, it isn't a democratic state, but it is a secular one.Itsmejudith 22:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Itsmejudith! I think you deserve a medal for saying that Turkey is a secular state and not democratic. I am not saying that Turkey took the right decision or wrong decision. What I am trying to say is that there is no true model of democratic state. Almost all the western world has gone into secular state status in the name of democracy, although unfortunately, most Muslim countries are even lagging far behind even to the western democratic model. I believe that what kind of democracy is it, that you can implement any philosophy, any theory, any idea *BUT* not from any religious scripture. Anyway! this is atleast how I look. TruthSpreader^reply 04:49, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that the religious authorites in Saudi Arabia would tell you that they have fully implemented Sharia, and I think they would know what they were talking about. Sharia doesn't require a caliph. Arrow740 18:07, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure they would say that, but others would disagree. To give only the most obvious example, the practice of Islamic law in Iran, where Shi'a is dominant, has many differences from Saudi Arabia. And in the article we cite Ghamidi as an authority, and he has been an adviser on Islamic law to the government of Pakistan, again with quite different conclusions to those adopted in Saudi Arabia. Islam - to its credit - is a universalist religion insisting on the unity of humanity, and many interpretations, whether strict, liberal or just pious, reject the ideology of nationalism. As far as I can see, all interpretations are critical of nationalism. Many Muslims regard Saudi Arabia as hypocritical, and even those who don't care to criticise the country of Mecca may still shake their heads sadly at the image it seems to project to the world.Itsmejudith 21:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Having a nation doesn't imply an ideology of nationalism necessarily. Regarding Ghamidi, he is given undue weight on wikipedia. Arrow740 23:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I think the discussion of having nations or a collective central government in Islam is only discussed in Fiqh and not in Sharia. Hence, I find this discussion irrelevant to (core) issues in Islam. Although, when something is considered part of the religion, one must look at the whole umma to see if this practice is prevalent or not (Qur'an transmitted through hafiz and core Sunnah through perpetual adherence by the umma, while hadith has only been transmitted through few people and later on by scholars, but not by the whole umma). What I've learned so far is that only those things, on which there is consensus of the whole umma should be considered religion, otherwise local religious rituals and customs (and that include Saudi Arabia as well for this reason) can very well be because of cultural effects. TruthSpreader^reply 05:06, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Courts

The article says: "Disarmed and unable to defend themselves in courts, dhimmis were vulnerable to the whims of rulers and the violence of mobs". This sentence is not accurate. The dhimmis had their own courts in the cases related to them and sometimes they won the court, though they did have disadvantages. The source is Tritton 1970. But I couldn't find the name of source. I think the sentence is flawed so please provide the source so that I can check it. Otherwise I may use other sources to replace this sentence. Thanks --Aminz 09:27, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Googled it and found this "Tritton, Arthur S. The Caliphs and Their non-Muslim Subjects: A Critical Study of the Covenant of Umar. London: Frank Cass, 1970." hope that helps aminz. This quote is very important as i does accurately describe Dhimmi, the courts the could testify in were there own not those of their rulers. I call being falsely accused and not being able to defend yourself in court a disadvantage but thats me using british understatement. Hypnosadist 13:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Tritton's book was originally published in the 1930s. The al-Qattan article cited is the most recent research. It confirms that when the testimony of a Muslim and non-Muslim were in direct conflict the word of the Muslim always or virtually always prevailed. Christians and Jews had their own courts so that their family and business matters could be heard under their own traditional laws. However, they often chose to use the Muslim courts instead. Non-Muslims also took out cases against Muslims in the Muslim courts. I have summarised the article as carefully as I could but would be happy if someone else looked at it for a second opinion. Itsmejudith 16:00, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

That's correct Judith. My point was that "unable to defend themselves in courts" is true in cases which involved Muslims. I also didn't know that the Dhimmis often chose to use the Muslim courts instead. So, I think this sentence needs a bit of modification.

Thanks Hypnosadist for the source. --Aminz 21:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dhimmi in action

Found this and because of the above two threads i thought i'd post it.

A Judicial Case in which the Supreme Court of Egypt Decided that Christians Are Infidels and Could Not Testify in the Court Against Muslims. Supreme Court, Domestic Section, Egypt, 5/19/1970

A childless, wealthy Christian woman donated half of her property to a Christian charity organization in Alexandria; the other half was left to her relatives. When she died, she was buried in a chapel built with her money. One of her nephews (a Muslim) claimed that his aunt adopted Islam before her death, making him the only beneficiary according to Islamic principles. There were no official records to confirm his claim according to the government requirement of registering religion changes. The nephew bought his aunt’s cook (a Muslim) and her husband to support his claim. The Christian charity organization and other relatives brought the priests and nuns who took care of her during her illness. All of them were Christians. The decision of the court was as follows:

All the witnesses of the defendants are non-Muslims (Christians). Their testimony is invalid because they are infidels. No infidel can testify against a Muslim. The Muslim nephew was given all of his aunt’s property, because according to Islamic principles, no non-Muslim should inherit property from a Muslim.

A Judicial Case in which the Supreme Court of Alexandria Decided that a Muslim Girl Who Converted to Christianity Is Legally Dead.

District Attorney, Alexandria, Egypt, 5/28/1972

As long as the defendant was a Muslim who adopted Christianity and got married, she is considered dead. Her marriage to a Christian is invalid and she should be separated from her husband or jailed.

A Judicial Case in which the Administrative Court of Egypt Decided that a Former Christian Who adopts Islam Cannot renounce Islam and Adopt Christianity Again.

Administrative Court, April 8, 1980

The Case

Mr. Gamel Youssef Hanna, a Christian, adopted Islam on 3/14/1953 and changed his name to Gamel Youssef Badawi and has an identification card as a Muslim. On 5/31/1974 he rejoined his church and readopted Christianity. He applied to change the religion on his identification card. The Identification Department refused to make such change because there is no apostasy in Islam. Mr. Gamel Youssef Hanna (now) presented his case to the Administrative Court.

The Court Decision

As long as the plaintiff has adopted Islam and became Muslim, he is considered as apostate if he renounces Islam and adopted another religion. And according to Islamic principles which he is bound by them as a Muslim, his apostasy is not acceptable. Therefore, he is not allowed to change his religion to the former one of his identification card.

According to article 46 of the Egyptian Constitution which guarantees freedom of religion does not contradict the second article which states that Islam is the state religion, because Islam calls for such freedom. This freedom which is guaranteed by the Constitution gives to every person the right to believe in any of the heavenly religions according to his conscience without coercion. However, such freedom does not supersede the Islamic principles for those who adopt Islam. In this case Islamic principles should be applied on those who adopt Islam which forbid the Muslim to change his (or her) religion. Thus, he does not have the right to renounce Islam.

This is dhimma in action. Hypnosadist 14:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm. Thanks for the info Hypnosadist. --Aminz 21:42, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Off Topic

Someone is putting off topic information into this article. I.E. harbi & musta'min. Why not put it in another article?--67.175.242.13 04:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Such as? Also please put new sections at the bottom of the page. Arrow740 05:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Why is Troy S. Thomas a reliable source? and where in the article does it say the statement mentioned in the article. --Aminz 06:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

It is concievable that the concepts of harbi & musta'min exist. But I don't see how they are pertinent to the article.

Arrow740: I don't care where you put it, but don't put it here. Good writing is concise and focused. Your edit has nothing to do with dhimi status. Also, the passage you added to the intro is not referenced anywhere else in the article.--67.175.242.13 08:51, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

At the moment, The sentences are not properly sourced. Those concepts probably existed in some Islamic periods but not today. That's why we need reliable sources for that. --Aminz 09:00, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that material about non-Dhimmis is generally not relevant here.Proabivouac 09:01, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Similarly, I have removed this even more irrelevant "tolerance" section[9] - if the treatment of non-Dhimmis by Muslims is irrelevant, how much more so is the treatment of non-Dhimmis by non-Muslims. Sticking closely to the topic of Dhimma will spare us much unnecessary debate.Proabivouac 09:06, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Proabivouac, that was not the point of the section. This is the way Lewis and Cohen started their book. It explains the history of understanding of the meaning tolerance towards one's subjects. --Aminz 09:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

No wikilawyering, please, everyone. If treatment of non-Dhimmis by Muslims is off topic, you cannot turn around and say that treatment of non-Dhimmis by non-Muslims is on-topic; that is quite basic.Proabivouac 09:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Proabivouac, the section is not about the treatment of non-Dhimmis by non-Muslims. It is about the reasons why Islam (being a monotheitic religion) is potentially non-tolerant and that the historical ideas regarding toleration. --Aminz 09:29, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

67.175.242.13, that's an important point giving context to the issue here. I don't agree with your summary as you removed the advent of new ideas and how it affected our understanding and definitions of tolerance. --Aminz 09:32, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Come on, now. I've seen this before on many articles, and the theme is always the same. Whenever something which by contemporary standards is considered bad was done in the name of Islam, then a certain editor feels compelled to allege that Jews and Christians did this, too. This is what Merzbow aptly called "defensive writing."Proabivouac 09:40, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually I think it was Zora who called it that. But anyways, I'm split on the relevance of this section; but I think I'm OK with the last edit by the anon Mr. 65.whatever who moved and shrunk the material a bit. - Merzbow 09:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Proabivouac, we are not here to condemn anybody. There is nothing wrong with providing the context. Yes, I think it is wrong to write about what someone did without mentioning its culture and era. --Aminz 09:49, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Then why do you oppose discussing the treatment of non-Dhimmi non-Muslims? Doesn't that likewise provide context?Proabivouac 09:50, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Provide context to which historical point? We are here talking about the medieval "definitions" of tolerance. --Aminz 09:51, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps that Dhimmi had it easy vs. non-Dhimmi? Same point as you're trying to make, right?Proabivouac 09:54, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Proabivouac, I don't really understand. Muslim attitude towards Pagans were intolerant. The attitude was tolerant towards Dhimmis by the definition of tolerance at that time. We are giving context to the "definitions" of the concepts, and explain their development. --Aminz 09:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

The passage that was originally disputed in this sections discussed Muslim attitudes towards non-Dhimmi. Doesn't that also give context? Topicality is the metric by which we can prevent "context" from being an occasion for POV. Suppose I went to French Revolution and added a mention of the Banu Qurayza, lest readers get the mistaken impression that the French are a uniquely cruel people for resorting to beheading?Proabivouac 10:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Proabivouac, we can not add something irrelevant because it can indirectly give context. We go directly and "explain the context" rather than giving it through examples. Please let me know what exactly the readers should understand from "Muslim attitudes towards non-Dhimmi"? That thing might merit inclusion but not "Muslim attitudes towards non-Dhimmi". I hope I am clear. --Aminz 10:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

What I Think About Context: I think that saying that the jews had it better as dhimmis is being appologetic. It is like saying, "Sure, we were a little bad, but look at what you did!" I don't think that should be in the article. But, I think placing attitudes in context is importaint because people tend to have a Kingdom of Heaven view of history. They take modern concepts like freedom and tolerence (which were present in the film but absent in midieval thought...) and assuming they were present in midieval civilizations. I would certainly allow context in an article on the inquisition. All in all, I don't feel it is that importiant enough to warrent a complete section.--67.175.242.13 18:05, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

"Cohen states that it seems that all the monotheistic religions in power throughout the history have felt it proper, if not obligatory, to persecute nonconforming religions." I think this can be removed if it is replaced with another sentence. The focus should be on historic attitudes rather than just pointing out that everyone did it.--67.175.242.13 18:23, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Proa, please note that I am not adding some irrelevant incident so that the reader gets an idea of the context. We are directly explaining the context. We are saying how people defined tolerance back then. Is that not clear? --Aminz 02:56, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Changed Mind I do think that context is importaint. People should understand that tolerence as it exists today was not a virtue in the past. But, I just dont think even my edited section does a good job of explaining that. --67.175.242.13 06:35, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Armenian Genocide

Does anyone have sources linking this to Dhimmi? It seems perfectly obvious that the years of the armenians being seen as less human (dhimmi) made it ok to commit this crime just like nazi propaganda made the holocaust possible but thats OR without a source. Hypnosadist 20:20, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, the nazi propidanda only took a decade, not 400 odd years. This does not deserve it's own section, and I would not want the drama of the armenian genocide to spill over to this topic. Also, the causes of the Armenian Genocide are undoubetly complex.--67.175.242.13 21:32, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Hypno, the massacre was down to the Young Turks and they were a militantly secularist force. Not an Islamic or Islamist one at all, but the opposite. It happened at the very point when the dhimmi status was dissolved. And please don't put too much weight on the British sources cited in the Armenian Genocide article: they were hardly disinterested observers. Itsmejudith 21:35, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Judith it seems i was not clear enough, i'm not questioning the simple fact the Young Turks did this. What i'm saying is that the previously instilled hate did not disappear overnight when they came to power, so it was as usual the minorities that got it in the neck first when civil strife happens. Another example would be that a 1950's lynching in the deep south of america comes from the hate laid down by the actions and attitudes of the 1750's trans-atlantic slave trade. Also if refugees are taken in by muslim groups/nations due to honoring the dhimmi contract this needs to be noted. Hypnosadist 00:01, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

While I don't have a source for it to hand, Hypnosadist may have a point. The issue of the dhimma was indeed raised in the context of the Armenian genocide when the Hashemite ruler Sharif Hussein wrote to his sons Faisal and Abdallah, who were the field commanders of the Arab Revolt, ordering them to protect Armenians fleeing from the Turks as they were ahl al-dhimma. Palmiro | Talk 21:51, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The section that Strothra keeps re-adding makes no mention of anything to do with the dhimma. If a relevant cite isn't provided soon, I'm going to remove it. - Merzbow 00:13, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Thats sort of why i started this section because i don't think the current Strothra edit links in with dhimmi and should not be in. On the other hand i think that the subject needs talking about and possible inclusion. What do you think Strothra? Hypnosadist 00:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Since dhimma are non-Muslim subjects of an Islamic state, I would say that it applies. One can claim that the Young Turks were secularists, but that ignores the influence the ulama has held over the Turkish government even to the present. Yet that only begs many more questions and interpretations of Turkish history and culture. Regardless, I'm not going to be involved in this issue much longer so you can remove it as you wish. I do know that it was an issue then, but at a time when I'm leaving Wiki, I'm not going to take out more time to find sources. I doubt there will be any solution to the Islamic nature of the Turkish/Ottoman state in this forum when it's a highly debated issue among scholars and the public, but I'm sure the issue will come up again. I would agree with removing it for now and keep the discussion going. --Strothra 00:49, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

A Wikieditor who is polite and sensible?!! I am in disbelief. The thing I would like to see is a statement that explicitly shows the relation between dhimmi status and the genocide. --67.175.242.13 00:34, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

"Since dhimma are non-Muslim subjects of an Islamic state" - make that "traditional" Islamic states. The paragraphs directly prior to the one you added make it clear that the Ottomans dismantled the elements of dhimma long before these events. And today, states like Saudi Arabia and Iran do not enforce dhimmi laws or enforce them only sporadically, even though they proclaim themselves Islamic states. This is not to say they don't oppress religious minorities, they just don't followed the framework of dhimma. - Merzbow 01:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Merzbow, Saudi Arabia readily has "religious police" who persecute Christians and other non-Muslims who engage in any organized worship in the nation, that seems worse than Dhimma and possibly worth noting. However, it's a discussion not tied in to this. Perhaps an article Religious persecution of non-Muslims in Muslim states needs starting? One Elephant went out to play... 18:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd be surprised if there wasn't an article like that already, but I'm too lazy to search. Anyone? - Merzbow 19:41, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Try criticism of Islam--67.173.142.168 07:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to have to request that people please not re-add any material on the Armenian genocide unless they can cite it with a source that ties the subject to the dhimma somehow. As can be seen above, there are good arguments why this is not relevant. - Merzbow 18:29, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I second this request. This article is not Non-Muslims in majority-Muslim states, but specifically about dhimma and dhimmi.Proabivouac 18:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I third the motion. Hypnosadist 18:43, 13 March 2007 (UTC)