Talk:Deprogramming

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The article is excessively long. Many deprogrammers served prison terms for this activity, so it is strange that their opinions are quoted in length, but the fact that this is not lawful is somehow omitteed. Will restore the balance when have time.

Contents

[edit] Derogatory words

Removed words like "cultist". When I have time, I will add more info. Especially interesting practices among deprogrammers were raping their "clients" and forcible injection of drugs. That is why many were indicted, not because "interventions" were "unsuccessful". CAN tried to combat it by issuing a "code of conduct" that forbade having sex with the "clients", drugging them etc and indroduced a new term "exit counselling" so that to distance itself from crimes. But some exit counselors continued to do that, that's why the CAN went bankrupt as a result. It had nothing to do with Scientology. I will add this information later.


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while preventing the person from choosing incorrectly is a contradiction in terms.. as is the phrase you can have any color as long as it's black. who has the authority to say to someone what is an incorrect choice unless, in the opinion of the court, the person is a danger to themself and others? -- anonymous

I happened to meet Lorne Fyvie's sister when she came to Boston to deprogram Lorne. To make a long story short, Lorne eventually got away from the deprogrammers and informed me that Steve Hassan was present during some of the sessions.

If helping a kidnapper makes one an "accessory", what does this make Hassan? Anyway, I'm not sure the Wikipedia should take my word for it so if anyone reverts I won't complain. --Uncle Ed 22:41 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)

Can anyone repair this paragraph?

Fringe organizations (who resist the use of the term "cult") often describe the practice as "forced deprogramming." Literature put out by these organizations may describe such methods as incarceration, physical restraint, and even "shock therapy" (ECT) as common methods of deprogramming, though most deprogramming sessions usually involve lengthy sessions with one or more counselors.

What's a "fringe organization"? What's all this about "describing the practice as forced"? And the argument about "may describe as...though usually involves a counselor" makes it sound like the person volunteered. This smacks of POV from a deprogramming advocate. --Uncle Ed

Ed, your accusation against Steve Hassan is a very serious one -- something that probably shouldn't be brought up on Wikipedia, because of the potential trouble it could cause. There's a statement on proof which states that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof," and this statement certainly seems valid here. Being "told by someone" that he took part in a deprogramming could easily be considered hearsay, or libel. Let's not go down that road. --Modemac 17:00 21 May 2003 (UTC)

I am not accusing Mr. Hassan of anything. He has admitted taking part in deprogrammings that took place 30 years ago. Also, Miss Fyvie told me that Hassan was present during the later incident. Anyway, the following paragraph needs revision:

(Steve Hassan, author of the book Combatting Cult Mind Control, is a counselor often accused of being a "deprogrammer" by such organizations as the Unification Church and Scientology. He states that he took part in a number of deprogrammings in the late 1970s, but he no longer approves of the practice and has not participated in any deprogrammings since then. He is one of the major proponents of exit counseling as a form of intervention therapy, and he refers to his method as "strategic intervention therapy.")

I don't know about Scientology accusations, but the idea that the Unification Church "often" accuses Hassan of being a deprogrammer is incorrect. All our public pronouncements about Mr. Hassan describe him (correctly) as a former deprogrammer.

I think the issue is not a matter of who did what, but rather is deprogamming good or bad? From the mid-1970s though the 1980s, many people thought deprogrammaing was necessary to "save" people from cults, especially the UC. In the last 5 or 10 years, deprogramming has been discredited and pretty much died out as a threat to religious liberty (at least in the US).

I have a lot of legal information about deprogramming, if anyone's interested... --Uncle Ed 14:41, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)

From the article:

Organizations accused of engaging in mind control (who resist the use of the term "cult" -- see list of purported cults) often describe the practice as "forced deprogramming." Literature put out by these organizations may describe such methods as incarceration, physical restraint, and even "shock therapy" (ECT) as common methods of deprogramming, though most deprogramming sessions usually involved lengthy sessions with one or more counselors.

The above seems designed to pre-emptively disprove the POV of "cults" and exonerate the POV of "deprogrammers". Let's find a way to describe the conflicting POVs neutrally.

(I think this is the second time I've moved the same paragraph...) --Uncle Ed 15:41, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Proponents of deprogramming often have downplayed its coercive aspects, decribing the sessions as involving "counseling".

Opponents of deprogramming have collected 100s of sworn depositions from people who swore that they were captured by surprise and taken by force to undisclosed locations and prevented from contacting friends, lawyers or their own doctors. --Uncle Ed 16:16, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

ExitControl, where are the references for your assertions about rape? Thanks in advance. Andries 20:31, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

http://bernie.cncfamily.com/rieth1.htm Sorry for not providing links in the first place, but you will surely find enough by googling: "deprogramming"+"rape". To my knowledge, there wasn't much reported facts, but take into account the CAN professional conduct code for exit counsellors that specifically forbade forcible injection of illegal drugs, alcohol intoxication and rapes. - ExitControl

[edit] deprogramming terminology

  • deprogram
  • deprogrammer
  • deprogramming - refer to getting someone to agree to leave an NRM, a process usually initiated by their parents (even when the target person is an adult)

The term deprogramming can refer to the process (whether voluntary or not), or specifially to involuntary, forcible deprogramming.

  • Exit counseling USU. refers to voluntary sessions of this type, but not always.

I think Wikipedia should either develop a standard, or take pains to use unambiguous phraseology

Phrases that can't be misinterpreted:

  • forcible deprogramming - person is held against their will and subject to the process even though they don't want it
  • involuntary deprogramming - person is subject to the process even though they don't want it
  • voluntary exit counseling - person agrees to the process

Not the the "voluntary" process is almost always initiated by the relatives of the target person, and OFTEN involves an element of deception and/or surprise: a sudden, unexpected "intervention", or "set-up". -- Uncle Ed (talk) 04:37, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)

My impression it that deprogramming rarely happened in Europe. Is this true? If so, can we write it? Also, I am not happy with non-scholarly references and quotes (Bernie)Andries 07:27, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I dunno, so excuse me if I change the subject; I just had a brain flash. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 21:25, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] What it all boils down to

Deprogrammers say that cults use (1) deception and (2) coercive emotional manipulation to get people to join and stay. Therefore, they argue, the only way to get people out of cults is to "fight fire with fire" and use deception and emotional manipulation. And while they're at it, why not take advantage of physical force (like kidnapping people and locking them up)?

Religious believers generally say that religious conversion does not (or need not) result from lies and tricks like that. The Unification Church in particular seeks out "prepared people", ones who are already searching and receptive. They gradually unfold the complex teachings and hope the person will recognize the truth and join.

Deprogrammers reply, "No way that it could be so simple! People don't quit jobs or careers in a matter of days, just because of some idea. There must be something fishy about it."

Parents say, "We couldn't have failed them so badly." (They would lose face if they conceded that someone else knew what was better for their kids.)

The inductee himself is given the ultimate cop out: "Just say you were a victim of mind control, and all will be forgiven. We'll all blame the cult, and you'll be welcomed back with open arms!" -- Uncle Ed (talk) 21:25, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)


It is so transparent, Ed... pity that some people don't see it that way... --Zappaz 02:22, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Open issues

[edit] Degree of force (and terminology)

Various parties have emphasized or glossed over the degree of force used in deprogramming. And some seek to distinguish between forcible and "voluntary" deprogramming.

Hassan and Fefferman both want to use deprogramming only for forcible interventions, preferring the term exit counseling for interventions wherein the target is not physically restrained or trapped. (Leaving aside the issue of emotional manipulation, of course - see coercive persuasion).

[edit] Element of surprise

We need to distinguish between the competency hearings of the 1930s and conservatorships - for the "legal" deprogrammings. In a competency hearing, the target could be represented by counsel, call witnesses, etc. With a conservatorship, as far as I know a judge would grant rights to a person's family to cart him off for deprogramming but without (a) informing the person that a conservatorship had been requested or (b) giving the person any chance to defend himself against it.

Interestingly, the "non-forcible" deprogramming technique also relies on the element of suprprise. In this kind of intervention, families are cautioned not to reveal any of the plans until the day before (or even the morning of) the intervention. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 21:18, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

Yikes! --Zappaz 21:41, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] This article is biased

I just happened upon it, and found it extremely one-sided: from the article itself and this discussion page, the article is clearly one person's attempt to smear and destroy the concept of 'cult' to eliminate it as a threat to their own religious beliefs. Furthermore, by linking to this from other articles, the credibility of those articles is severely compromised, nullifying the painstaking efforts of many people at presenting knowledge backed by hard facts and/or careful thought -- both of which are glaringly missing in this article.

I agree with this editor. In reading this article, it seemed to be very strongly that the tone of this article inappropriately advocated one side of the debate (the person who feels that the label "cult" threatens their religion) over the other, and the article needs a major rewrite with respect to its tone. --Kuzaar-T-C- 13:46, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A rebuttal to the information on the page

I would like to request that you post a link to my site where I have written a rebuttal to the information posted on the Wikipedi page: (Deprogramming). I would do it myself - but it seems the page is not open for edits. Contrary to the maintainer of this page, this is not 'negative' information ('negative' being Unification Church 'term' for any information that does not support the Church) - rather I would prefer that you call it 'an opposing view point'.

Here's the link:

http://deprogramming.homestead.com/index.html

thanks - Judy Powell

The page is open for editing to anyone. Go ahead and edit, but I would suggest you read first NPOV so that you can familiarize yourself with the principles upon which Wikipedia is built. BTW, there is no such a thing as "the maintainer of this page". --Zappaz 05:19, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New intro

Cut from intro:

Commonly this is done for a child or teenager at the request of their parents.

I'm sure this is incorrect. There have been hardly any deprogrammings done on religious converts under the age of 21.

So the first false impression given by the intro has been taken care of. In fact nearly all new converts to 'cults' who are kidnapped and coerced to abandon their new faith, have been in their 20s. Although it is true that this is done "at the request of their parents", there is also the civil rights and religious freedom issue:

  • Do adults (i.e, persons 21 and older) have a right to adopt a religion which their parents dislike?
  • Do these adults have the right to choose a religion which 99% or more of their fellow citizens "regard as spurious"?

I also wanted to mention in the first 100 words of the article, that the basis on which deprogramming is justified is that the target is a "victim": that according to various deprogrammers' theoretical models of conversion, they did not freely choose to join the cult.

At some point in the article, we should clarify the various cult mind control theories - even though this info is spread out into as many as 4 distinct article about anti-cult theories of conversion:

Of course, since I've been in a cult for 28 years, maybe I'm not the best one to do all this editing. I could be unconsciously biased (i.e., I don't know I'm a victim); I could be deliberately lying to you (I'm not, but how would you know that?) - or on the other hand, I might really have joined my cult on purpose, and it might not really be spurious. Isn't this an exciting dilemma? Uncle Ed 21:01, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The use of force

Cut from intro:

Professionals often refer to deprogramming as exit counseling.

Which professionals? From what discipline? Private detectives? Psychiatrists?

I think it is mostly advocates of the use of force - i.e., kidnapping and detention - who want to escape the media attention and legal trouble suffered by those who do kidnapping and false imprisonment on innocent victims ... these are the ones who call deprogramming "exit counseling", because it "counseling" sounds voluntary.

The techniques of deprogramming and exit counseling are exactly the same, with the only difference being the degree of legal and physical compulsion used on the target.

Let's not endorse force against religious converts.

On the other hand, we also must guard against excessive zeal (such as mine!) so please help me to write about the "force issue" accurately and neutrally.

How much force is used in the following:

  1. deprogramming
  2. exit counseling

Is it simply a matter of the 1st being forced, and the 2nd being voluntary? Uncle Ed 22:45, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

How about Deprogrammers don't like to reveal to the general public that they use (1) force and (2) trickery to get targets out of cults.
Also, Deprogrammers justify their use of physical force and deception on the grounds that (as they claim):
  1. cults use "coercive persuasion" (emotional force, which only physical force is strong enough to counter), and
  2. cults deceive people by (a) concealing unpleasant, damning facts (as they claim) from recruits
It's kind of a "fight fire with fire" justification - or as one contributor said, Do not condemn "dragging" merely because someone dragged an unconscious man into a burning building; you have to drag him out to save him. A wonderful metaphor which brands religious conversion as (c) a procedure performed on a person while he is helpless and unaware which (d) exposes him to mortal danger and which therefore (e) does not require his informed consent to rescue him.
The question is not:
  • Is deprogramming good?
But rather
  • How shall this encyclopedia describe the process? Uncle Ed 14:17, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reasons results varied

Because there was no formal training, certification and oversight of deprogrammers, techniques and results varied widely.

I don't think this is the reason. And I doubt that "formal training, certification and oversight of deprogrammers" would have improved the situation.

This sentences smacks of the POV that there's nothing wrong with breaking someone's faith by force - a viewpoint which Wikipedia:NPOV forbids any article from endorsing.

Say, rather, that Mr. X_____ advanced the view that deprogramming would have brought more consistent (better?) results had their been "formal training, certification and oversight of deprogrammers". --Uncle Ed 13:38, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deprogramming in Japan

"In 2002, the courts declared "deprogramming" illegal in a case involving members of Jehovah's Witnesses. However, in 2003, the Supreme Court rejected the Unification Church's appeal in a case involving charges against the victim's family and the kidnappers for kidnapping and "deprogramming." In that case, the court determined that the bases of the appeal were not matters involving a violation of the Constitution. A Unification Church spokesman estimated there were 20 deprogramming cases during the period covered by this report; however, at the families' request, none of the cases were reported to the police. "According to a spokesman for Jehovah's Witnesses, members are free to practice their religion without restriction. Other than one forced confinement in January 2005, which was reported to the police after the fact, there have been no reported deprogramming cases since 2003."U.S. Department of State, Japan, International Religious Freedom Report 2005, Section II. Status of Religious Freedom --HResearcher 00:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ACLU / Ted Patrick

"In the late 1970s the American Civil Liberties Union issued a public statement and report on deprogramming. The report asserts that deprogramming is a civil liberty issue. Most of the first half of the report has information about Ted Patrick, the father of deprogramming, who has evoked justification laws and conservatorships in order to legalize deprogrammings. He was very successful at getting acquitted by the courts."CESNUR 2005 International Conference, June 2-5, 2005, Palermo, Sicily --HResearcher 01:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Claims of brainwashing shrouds discrimination

"Discrimination, or legal action, against religious groups because someone doesn't like them is clearly a violation of the free exercise of religion, a human right increasingly recognized around the world. But the claim of "brainwashing" shrouds the discrimination by claiming that religious groups are victimizing recruits and potential recruits by employing powerful means of manipulation that are extremely difficult to resist."Cult Group Controversies: The Brainwashing Controversy, University of Virginia, The Religious Movement Page --HResearcher 01:08, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History & Background

I removed a rather weak analogy that a previous author had made with Descartes and his philosophical method. I really see no similarities at all between Descartes' approach to philosophy and deprogramming, and it leads to a very misleading idea of what Cartesian philosophy is all about. I suppose that if somebody really wanted to search for early historical parallels they might be able to find some (Dominican activities in medieval France might be a good place to start), but this is really not necessary and would introduce more NPOV challenges, so I would suggest sticking to the recent history of the deprogramming movement for this article. Demmeis 03:12, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Singer

Hi folks. I have a reservation about this passage: "Also, in the mid-1980s, psychologist Margaret Singer lost her status as an expert witness when the APA declined to endorse the DIMPAC report. From this point on, involuntary deprogramming's legal basis almost immediately vanished...Since that time, involuntary deprogramming has been virtually unknown in the United States."

First of all, what is meant by "lost her status as an expert witness"? Does this mean that she couldn't get any more gigs as an expert witness when the APA declined to endorse? We know this?

Secondly, did involuntary deprogramming ever have a "legal basis", much less a legal basis that "vanished"?

Thirdly, why do we think that the APA decision had anything whatsoever to do with the status of involuntary deprogramming? Singer didn't endorse involuntary deprogramming, so I don't see that there could have been any connection.

Thanks! Tanaats 04:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

About Singer: There is probably some truth in this. To counter this, one would have to find one single appearance as expert witness after the Fishman decision.
Is it up to me to disprove the statement? I thought that WP guidelines say that it is up to the person who inserted that statement to provide a verifiable source for it. Maybe I misunderstand the guidelines. Tanaats 19:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, of course, the person who inserted the statement should prove it. I usually assume that it did at the time it was inserted... I am usually reluctant to delete, even stuff I don't like. But go ahead :-) Some pro-cult editor might find the source. --Tilman 20:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, but heck, almost nothing in this article is sourced. I guess that means I can slap whatever OR I want into it :). If you think there's some truth in the statement I'll just leave it alone. (Although it no longer fits into the flow of the section IMO.) Tanaats 21:06, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Much might be sourced in the comments of the history section, the "ref" thing is rather recent. Of course, you might still add that "citation needed" tag [citation needed]. (I prefer this, than to start WW3 with cult apologists) Maybe it isn't all sourced - but most of it is probably either true, or can be found in the "scholarly" (haha) publications of cult apologists. --Tilman 21:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Good suggestion. Did that. Tanaats 21:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


About involuntary deprogramming: it was legal in the beginning, parents were getting conservatorships, i.e. the "legal power" over their adult children.
Ok, thanks, I'd completely forgotten that. Tanaats 19:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
About APA and deprogramming: has nothing to do with each other. --Tilman 07:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I took it out. I also moved the statement "Since that time, involuntary deprogramming has been virtually unknown in the United States" after "After 10 or 15 years of this, some adult children began suing their parents or deprogrammers" because the latter is much more likely to be the actual proximate cause of the end of deprogamming. Tanaats 19:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Are personal websites a valid source?

The paragraph beginning with "The number of forcible deprogrammings had diminished by the end of the 1980s" is referenced from the http://bernie.cncfamily.com/ website. Are personal websites allowed as a reliable source? WP:RS seems to say otherwise. Tanaats 04:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that "Bernie" is never a reliable source. This is an anonymous "moderate" propaganda site. He's certainly not a researcher himself. Although I would accept it if he quotes actual researchers, even cult apologists. --Tilman 07:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pseudoscience?

Regarding "The existence of mind control is widely disputed, and sometimes dismissed as pseudoscience by the psychiatric establishment"...Where can the opinions of a "psychiatric establishment" be found? Who exactly has dismissed mind control as "pseudoscience". How about changing this to something like "The existence of mind control is a subject of dispute among psychiatrists, psychologists, and sociologists."? Tanaats 04:55, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Agreed. Btw, see this: [1] Zimbardo was president of the APA... I couldn't find a quick mention that people consider it as a pseudoscience, but I know that some sociologists dispute its existance. And it is not endorsed by the APA. --Tilman 07:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
It's not there anymore, and I can't find in "History" where it was changed. Puzzled am I. Oh well. Tanaats 20:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Popular Culture (1): Roseanne

The Roseanne episode Springtime For David has David Healy working in a rabbit suit at a fascist amusement park, where his thoughts are highly controlled. Roseanne is able to take David away from the facility without violence, after realizing that he has completely changed. After the credits roll, David is seen bound to a chair while being deprogrammed and slapped by Roseanne. The deprogramming succeeds when Roseanne tells David that rabbits don't dance and sing - they're food! [2] --Tilman 21:49, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Popular Culture (2): Ellen

The Ellen episode Oh, Sweet Rapture deals with the deprogramming of her friend Audrey, after she joins a group of "rapture" car fanatics and changes completely. Ellen deprograms Audrey by luring her into a "rapture" car, and then activates the children lock, and explains to Audrey that "these people love you only because they don't know you; those who do, consider you annoying and still love you". (Translated from german version) --Tilman 15:34, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Popular Culture (3, 4): Split Image / Ticket to Heaven

The movies Split Image and Ticket to Heaven both deal with young people recruited into a cult and then deprogrammed. --Tilman 15:12, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

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