Talk:Denmark–Norway
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Archive of talk page prior Aug 10th, 2006 (Troll warning)
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[edit] Wends and Goths
I venture to reintroduce the term "Goths" in the title of the kings of Denmark-Norway, instead of "Geats". It seems to me that the formula "de Venders og Goters Konge", as used in the official title of the Danish kings until 1972, is more precisely rendered in English as "Wends and Goths". The commonly used Latin translation was "Vandalorum et Gothorum". Most likely, the term "Goters" refers not to the inhabitants of Götaland in Sweden, but to the Goths, the East Germanic tribe that may originally have migrated from Sweden, but during the first centuries inhabited parts of present day Poland and Russia, later to split into the Visigoths and Ostrogoths who established successor states to the Roman Empire. While Denmark-Norway existed, both titles were of course recognised as empty titles of pretension, and the peoples referred to were more or less mythical.
The Swedish kings, by the way, claimed dominion over the same peoples, usually in the opposite order: "Götes och Vendes Konung". When Norway entered into a personal union with Sweden in 1814, the king's Norwegian title was "Konge til Norge og Sverige de Goters og Venders". Roede 18:34, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
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- The title refers to Gotland, not Götaland, despite of the historical connections between Denmark and Västergötland. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 02:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] King to Denmark and Norway
I have found a royal ordinance from 1792 where Christian VII has the title "konge til Danmark og Norge" ("king to Denmark and Norway") [1] and though some of the contributors here would like to see it. Nidator 20:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
You linking to a norwegian homepage. BTW can you see the ship behind, and can you see it has a Danish flag. No union flag. --Arigato1 22:36, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
- Of course not since such a flag didn't exist, as you no doubt already know. This is getting completely and utterly ridiculous (the preceding part of this thread is on Talk:Greenland). The Dannebrog was the symbol of the KING and consequently used by his army / navy in both Denmark, Norway, Schleswig, Holstein etc etc. Use of this flag was restricted to the army / navy / king's presence until c. 1850, during the First Schleswig War, when common people were allowed to use it as well. You still haven't provided any sources to back up your claim that Norway was annexed, except a crappy article written by a BBC journalist. You'll need much better sources than this, and for starters, you still haven't addressed the fact that Professor Knud J.V. Jespersen (Dansk Udenrigspolitiks Historie) and Store Danske Encyklopædi disagree with you or why Frederick III talked about TWO countries in his "Kongelov" rather than one. After all, he ran the place and his word was law. There is a reason why Kongeloven speaks of two nations, why Christian V didn't give the same laws to both Denmark and Norway, and why the Union coat of arms is used almost exclusively on Danish coins but not on Norwegian coins. The list of proof is a lot longer than this. Valentinian T / C 23:25, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I see the old debate has reopened so I'll quote a bit from Nordens historia by Harald Gustafsson (a Swedish basic university level textbook)
- I en omdiskuterad paragraf i Christian III:s handfästing heter det att Norge "hädenefter inte ska vara ellet heta ett eget kungarike, utan vara en del av Danmarks rike". Trots denne är det emellertid klart att de danska kungarna också i fortsättningen betraktade Norge som ett eget kungarike, med egna lagar, egen förvaltning och egna ständermöten.
Fornadan (t) 16:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The Norwegian Royal line died out it says.
So Norway could not be a kingdom.
I have fixed the introducing now. --Arigato1 21:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
- You didn't fix it, you messed it up. In medieval and renaissance law, the same person could easily hold several titles. E.g. the house of Habsburg were both Dukes of Austria, Kings of Bohemnia and Kings of Hungary = The same person holding and using several titles. If you had actually read Kongeloven, or books on medieval and renaissance state systems, you would also be aware of this. E.g. Frederick III of Denmark and Norway stressed very strongly that he had TWO titles. So did Christian IV. Stop beating a dead horse. Valentinian T / C 22:26, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] If you have a Union between two kingdoms
Then you need two monarchs. Right?
