Talk:Demographics of Lebanon

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This article reaks of pro-christian bias. Statements like "christians from latin america are generally wealthy" is a load of crap. There are millions of affluent lebanese from ALL walks of life, regardless of religion. If you are going to GENERALIZE religios sects to a statement like "christians are wealthier" at lesat provide reliable data! Racist article, it reaks of pro-christian bias. And ancestorial lineage from 2000+ years ago is irrelivant! HECK why don't we all call ourselves africans?! Isn't that were most civilizations came from!? Lets stop being ridiculous and saying foolish things such as christians are pheonicians and muslims are whatever. Its useless.

Contents 1 1 2 Methodology 2.1 I Palestinian refugees 2.2 II Foreign workers 2.3 III the lebanese diaspora 2.4 IV The topic of the 1994 naturalized 3 Levantine 3.1 Levantine/phoenician/syrian/arab. 4 Lebanese people 5 Phoenicians 6 Impending deletion of Lebanese musician page 7 net migration

[edit] 1

GUYS PLEASE STOP QUARRELLING! There are thousands of web-sites and chats, from the lebanese diaspora, where you can discuss. this is supposed to be a free encyclopedia, people need quick and reliable information on the we. THIS ARTICLE MUST BE FIXED BY SOMEBODY. if you check other web sites on sensitive issues, you'll see they hav found standards accepted by everybody. For instance it seems more correct to write Maronites REGARD THEMSELVES as descendants as Phoenicians. Most muslims probably share the same origins, but don't consider this relevant. You clearly have two different Lebanons in mind. Please divide actual facts from your personal or ethnic views. Tariq

Lebanon is not an arabic country or arabic culture . Lebanon is the door to middleeast and Asia since Phoeniciens . It is the door to middleast for Europe and the door to Europe for middleast . Lebanon`s culture is mixed by west and east culture . The form of lebanese language is 60% arabic ,30% frensh , and 10% turkish .It is a mix language ,and the culture is mediterranean . The population in lebanon in the last statistics for 2004 shows that the lebanese inside Lebanon are 3,777,000 and outside Lebanon around 12,000,000 millions . Many peaples ask why the lebanese are many outside Lebanon than inside Lebanon , simply because the Phoenicien culture did not die.

Lebanon is an Arabic country, its official language is Arabic. We are here in an encyclopedia, not a propaganda site and not a site for some extremists, or negationistes or else. If you have your own idea about what you think of lebanon, wikipedia is not the right place to put them, here we are in an encyclopedia. The language is Arabic, 100% arabic. Though the spoken dialect, may contain words from other languages, LIKE ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. In france, there is a lot of english, spanish and german words in the spoken language, though their language is french. The estimation of 12 000 000 lebanese outside lebanon is totally wrong. A lebanese is someone who HAS the nationality. There is no official recensement in lebanon since 1932, because of persons like you that refuses a REAL count of population. Please stop vandalism, or you ip will be blocked. Addoula 22:11, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

kurds are less then one percent in lebanon. Addoula 20:38, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sorry for reverting OneGuy, i just wanted to add the ethnicities back! so i opted for the quicker way (reverting!).. Addoula 18:42, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

NPOV Disputable: This article is heavily biased by someone who is skilled at working bias into articles. Who is most observers ? What is the source of this alleged 70% figure ?; why is the redundant statement make up the majority included ? The article states as fact that Christian comprise 23% - where does such a figure come from ?; the Lebonese people I have known would strongly dispute both alleged figures; the article already states no census has taken place since 1932, therefore obviously the author of this is inventing or stating highly dubious figures as fact. This appears to be another example of the pro-Islam bias editing which OneGuy/John_Kenney has practised elsewhere. The intent of mixing the alleged 23% figure along with the supposed Jewish and Buddhist communities of Lebanon is clearly to infer that Christians form a insignificant group in the country as part of the authors attempts to push his unfounded POV. Real & knowledgable authors list their sources. (they also do not steal artwork)--Daeron 15:06, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I am skilled at removing bias :)) The source for the 70% is in the article. The exact paragraph was taken from the US State Department public domain report on religion:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2002/14006.htm

The country has a total area of 4,035 square miles, and its population is approximately 3.6 million. Because the matter of religious balance is such a sensitive political issue, a national census has not been conducted since 1932, before the founding of the modern Lebanese State. Consequently there is an absence of accurate data on the relative percentages of the population of the major religions and groups. Most observers believe that Muslims, at approximately 70 percent of the population, make up the majority, but Muslims do not represent a homogenous group. There also are a variety of other religious groups, primarily Christian denominations, which constitute approximately 23 percent of the population, as well as a small Jewish population. There are also some very small numbers of Baha'is, Buddhists, and Hindus in the country. There are some atheists in the country. [1]

If you insert your own false numbers in the article, someone skilled will of course fix that :)) OneGuy

Well, i would like to say, that the official count of those eligible to vote (so those who are registered and are ABOVE 21 YEARS), shows that :

Sunnites 26.5% Shiites 26.2% Maronites 22.1% Orthodoxes 7.8% Druzes 5.6% Catholiques 5.2% etc... So in a results, christians are 40%, muslims are 60%

So if we add those who are UNDER 21, then things would a lot change. Because, basing on private estimations, most of them are shiites.

So the number 70% muslims to 30% christians is more accurate. Also the number of 35% (at least) shiites... In a consequence, maronites will be a lot less then 22%, they will be like 16-18%.

In most privates (international or national) estimations, it shows between 65 to 75% of muslims to 25-35% of christians... Addoula 22:42, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

1) Addoula, please give accurate sources for your estimations, do not overanalyze based on your subjective opinion. For instance, give me the source behind your following arguments:

“So if we add those who are UNDER 21, then things would a lot change. Because, based on private estimations, most of them are Shiites.” Source?!!

You talked about “national estimations”. What are they? No national counting was done since 1932!

2) How did you extrapolate the percentages in the ethnicities section? From where did you get the 18%, 20%, 35% etc you mentioned for the ethnicities?!!

3) From where did you get the numbers of those below 21?!!

4) The numbers of those eligible for voting do not include most of the Lebanese which are currently outside the country. They also do not include a portion of the Lebanese present in Lebanon, even above 21.

5) You are saying at least 35% Shiites…Are you crazy or what?!! user: George.

George, as i can see your modifications, you make the article very POV.

As every estimations in the world (even from the USA), conclude that 60-70 % of the population are muslims. So i can't see how you end with 50-60.

Those eligible to vote include all those registered... Addoula 02:25, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Many estimations speak of “Residents” not “Citizens”, so refugees and Syrian workers are included. Do not fall in the mistake of mixing residents (including foreigners) and citizens (with Lebanese nationality). Second, “Those eligible to vote include all those registered” as you said…well this is theoretically true but practically speaking, the lists in the previous elections had unfortunately a 10% error rate (missing names, dead people listed…). As it was mentioned on LBC during a political program about a month ago, a recent study has been made by experts from the Lebanese University which has lead to 47-50% Christians, 50-53% Muslims. user:George

If you qualifie that the USA and everyone else in the world's estimations on the lebanese people are false, then something goes wrong with your pov. An no, the estimations talk about "citizens" that have lebanese nationality, eveywhere in the word. So stop reverting. I think you are a christian, so you must admit that they do not represent more then 30% of the population, and stop trying to change the reality. Addoula 18:36, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

So you said “you must admit that they DO NOT represent more then 30%”…I will give you a counterexample: CIA World Factbook 2004 gives 60% Muslims and 40% Christians. So you got the answer from the CIA! I know, like most Muslims, you might have this anti-Christians complex. Anyway, Christians count 2 billions (minimum) whereas Muslims 1.4 billions (pushed to the highest maximum). So there’s no reason to change the reality… Do all estimations speak of citizens? No, International Report on Religious Freedom, for example, speaks of residents. user:George.

Well, so you agree that muslims are at least 60% of Lebnanese population. So you pov about 50-60 is wrong. A 60-70% is more accurate and correct. Even though there is 2 billions of christians (not all beleive in their religion, they were just born like that), Maronites are a lot less then that.. And i don't have an anti-christian complex, but i think you have some hate against muslims. Anyway, this isn't going to change the fact that muslims are 60-70% of the population.. And i think because of people like you, we didn't have any population count in Lebanon since 1932.... So please stop reverting... If you want to express you propaganda and political POV, then do it somewhere else, and don't destroy what is left in the credibility of Wikipedia. Addoula 00:16, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Addoula, the CIA World Factbook is an excellent source, and it says 59.7 per cent Muslim. [2] Perhaps the best thing to do would be if you said 60 per cent according to the World Factbook, and between 60 and 70 per cent, according to Y. If you provide a credible source for your figure, both references can be linked to after that sentence to avoid similar disputes in the future. SlimVirgin 00:44, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

I am not agreeing that Muslims count “at least” 60% of the population!!! It’s “at most”, if one should agree. So I’m just giving you a clear counterexample from a US source to say that the highest possible figure is 60% (even 59.7%), so it's 50-60 not 60-70. I stick to the local estimates which say 50-53 Muslims, 47-50 Christians.
Do I hate Muslims? Where did I say so?! There is no reason for you to think that, unless you have an anti-Christians complex. And no, I don’t hate anyone.
You said not all Christians believe in their religion…do all Muslims believe in their religion? At least in Christian countries people are free to worship as they want, whereas in Muslim countries everything is taken by the sword, no freedom of speech, no freedom of religion…if one leaves Islam, they kill him according to the Shari’ a. People don’t really have choices there.
No one is destroying the credibility of Wikipedia here, because the topic of our discussion is subjective. There’s no one answer to it. In the absence of an objective official census, estimates are estimates. George. 08:31, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No sir, the US estimations are "at least" 60%, besdide they use the official number of those eligible to vote. And yes, an estimation is an estimation. All international estiomations talk about 65-70% of Muslims.. So i gave you a favor by saying 60-70 instead of 65-70.. Anyway, putting in wikipedia that 50-60 are muslims won't change the reality that they are 60-70.. Addoula 15:59, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Addoula, I have supplied a credible reference showing 60 per cent. If you want to use any other figure, you will also have to supply a credible reference, so please do that. Everything done here must be supported by references where there is any dispute or likelihood of one. Also, our job is to describe disputes, not to engage in them, so it would probably be a good idea to tone down the arguments on this page. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 16:34, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

Yes i agree exactly about what you say. George puts the numbre 50-60, i put it 60-70. The souce you gave say 60. So the questin is if muslims are "at least" or "at most" 60%. I will give here some links [3] , i will give other links later Addoula 19:02, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps you could say "in the region of 60 per cent" as a compromise between you. SlimVirgin 19:06, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

Addoula, again you have to give sources for your claims; otherwise you would be doing nothing. And no, in the CIA Factbook, 60% is “at most”.
When I say “estimates are estimates”, I mean it’s not necessarily the reality (I see that you understood it wrongly in one of your responses above).
Your link Lebanonwire is not relevant. It gives the following warning: “However, Feghali explained that the percentages of religions and sects within the Lebanese electorate, are quite different from the percentages of religions and sects within actual voters.” This source leads to no authoritative answer (not to mention that it is based on the observations of a person, Mr. Feghali). George. 19:37, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've changed it to around 60 per cent and added a link to the World Factbook, which is a very reliable source. Hope that's okay with everyone. SlimVirgin 20:10, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

That's ok with me.. I was just going to propose this. Addoula 21:26, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Anyway aggregating the percentages of muslims is irrelevant since 'muslim' is not a community but a collection of deeply divided communities + ethnicity as Levantine or Arabs is somewhat irrelevant after centuries of mixing. Apart for Armenian and Kurds, ethnic features have completely disappeared. Even muslims are from Syriac/aramean descent. After all "syrian nationalism" is the same than "levantine nationalism". What you can say is that Levantine identity is stronger in christian communities but that's it.Equitor equitor 05:00, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Levantines: 50% Arabs: 44% Armenians : 5%

This is related to the discussion aboev, but what is the meaning of the term "Levantine"? By virtue of Lebanon's being in the Levant, aren't all Lebanese (except Armenians) Levantines? I don't dispute that the Lebanese have a Phoenecian heritage, as reflected in their entrepreneurship, but that doesn't mean that they aren't Arabs. Lebanon has certainly been a member of the Arab League.Dinopup 20:44, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Levantines can have several meanings. 1) It can mean any inhabitant of the Levant (Lebanese, west syrian, palestinians, even part of Turkey etc) whatever his religion and this is how it is understood by most people. 2) It can also be used for the original inhabitants of the levants, who were living there before the arab conquest in the VIIth century. In this context, Levantine means pure christian non-ethnic Arab (who used to speak distinct semitic languages) as opposed to pure muslim arab conquerors.

That is theoretically speaking. But this distinction is somewhat irrelevant since modern arab muslims do not only descend frompure Arab conquerors since they mainly descend from local inhabitants who converted to Islam and became Arabs. Even local christians cannot be viewed as entirely distinct from ethnic Arabs (ethnic arabs meaning the arabs before the VIIth century). Some early christian arabs tribes did not convert to Islam and merged with non-arab christians (this may have contributed to the introduction of arabic language in the local christian communities BTW). Moreover, the distinction between early arabs and arabized (converted people) that used to exist in the early days of Islam has completely disappeared. You could say that modern arab muslims are relatively more related to early arabs and local christians are relatively more related to early Levantines but you cannot divide these groups along pure bloodlines. Arabs see themselves as a culture based on the arabic language and on Islam (the second element being disputed). Not as a distinct ethnic group.

In its second meaning, the term of Levantine is used by specialists or middle east scholars . Specialists are aware of all these facts but it's ok for them to use that term since they can replace it in its context. Before the fall of the ottoman empire, Levantine was frequently associated to Levantine christians (I am not sure of that, but the term could even englobe jews, greeks or armenians). Using it in that way nowadays is misleading to casual wikipedia readers. The term should be removed.

--equitor 14:51, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Methodology

I think that you shouldn't argue about but the exact percentage but cite the different point of views and document the source. Range of christians-muslims vary from 25-75 (Hezbollah) to 50-50 (maronite church) or 60-40 (CIA).

Also, the following topics are important and should be treated in specific paragraphs (in a neutral and well documented way). They are currently mixed with other topics and the article has no structure at all.

[edit] I Palestinian refugees

200 000? 300 000? 500 000?

[edit] II Foreign workers

there's plenty of them and (disregarding syrians) the presence of egyptians, indians, sri lankese, filippos and others is not 'marginal' in Lebanon wether Lebanese accept or not. The article is on the demographics of Lebanon and not lebanese.

[edit] III the lebanese diaspora

Most of it is pre-50's and a lot of people do not feel lebanese and married with local population. It's worth telling that before saying that there's 10-15 millions lebanese abroad. We might as well include the phoenicians who left lebanon 3000 years ago in that case! I think we should focus on the real emigration, the one that kept ties with Lebanon. Anyway, before telling any number please provide the source.

In Brazil, the government estimated that Lebanese emigrants and descendents are around 7 million.

[edit] IV The topic of the 1994 naturalized

Highly controversial, estimation vary from 80 000 to 450000. It's worth talking about it.

Finally I think that the french version is (for once) better documented and balanced and that you should have a look on it if you understand french. --equitor 15:25, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Check the UNRWA for Palestinian refugee estimates, I think they are the most accurate. Also, levantines is not an ethnicity. Arab is an ethnicity only that it refers to Arab-speakers that are not Armenian, Kurdish, or Circassian. Yes, we all know that many maronites don't regard themselves as Arab, but that doesn't let us invent a whole new label called 'Levantine' and put 50% of the Lebanese populatoin in it. As for the Syrian naturalized, I agree this is a very tricky issue. However, you have to remember that many Syrian workers have taken Lebanese wives and now live in Lebanon.Yuber 18:49, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Levantine

Even under your definition of Levantine, it is very hard to draw the line between a Levantine Lebanese and an Arab Lebanese. I think it would be better to give the religious breakdown for Lebanon, since there is a clearer line there.

I don't claim to be an expert on Lebanon, but I have heard that many Lebanese Christians are very ambivalent about Arabness, prefering to think of themselves as misplaced Europeans. If you consider Lebanese Christians to be more Phoenician than Arab, or more European than Arab, perhaps you could write about this instead of calling the Lebanese "Levantines," which is confusing. Can you produce quotations illustrating the point?

Also, don't the words "Levant" and "Lebanon" derive from the same root? Thus, calling Lebanese people "Levantines" seems a little redundant.</>Dinopup 01:40, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Levant and lebanon derive from totally different roots, one's from the french word to rise the other's from the Aramaic "white". Anyways, yes there are many Lebanese christians who don't like to be called Arab. However, we call them Arab on this encyclopedia SOLELY going by the definition of being native Arab-speakers. A statement might have to be added that many lebanese christians don't want to be considered Arab. However, the creation of a whole new ethnicity to suit some people is ridiculous especially when it has never been heard of before.Yuber^(talk) 04:55, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

yep that's what I am saying, ethnic lines is a bad concept in Lebanon (if you give a biological definition to ethnicity). Maybe the distinction between arabs and levantines was ok 1200 years ago but today arabness is more a cultural identity than an ethnic one (though some arab nationalist tried to define it as ethnic, the allegation simply doesn't hold). However ,this does not mean that arabic identity is based on weak theories because identity and ethnicity are not the same thing.

It's also true that a lot of christians do not consider themselves as arab but as arab speaking people (the latter being undeniable for most christian communities). It must be noted that there's no consensus about arabness in the christinan communities and I don't know if any poll was conducted on this question. It's interesting to note that muslim minorities consider themselves as arab but are rarely interested in panarabism. I think that the main reason for this is that the relation between arabness (or at least panarabism) and sunni Islam is still ambiguous (my opinion is that panarabism is somewhat related to sunni Islam nowadays, but it's strongly disputed)--equitor 11:51, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Levantine/phoenician/syrian/arab.

I am getting tired of these ethnic theories. First of all and historically the mountains were maronites established themselves was inhabited by syriac-speaking people while the phoenicians settled on the coast. Second of all, the maronites use syriac as their religious language. Third: phoenicians cities were spread on all the Lebanese coast, but also on part of the Syrian and Palestinan coast. I think we should remove all references to ethnic origins wether syriac, phoenician or arab. After 1000 ans of mixing, it's really not that relevant.--equitor 13:09, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

I'm pretty much in agreement. It seems to me that many Christian Lebanese are more likely identify themselves as ethnically different from the Muslims, and one way to do that is to say "We're Phoenicians, and we were here before you." Genetically, populations in the Levant (Israel/Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria) are all very close. This would say to me that the whole region has experienced more-or-less the same levels of admixture from different groups (Canaanites, Arabs, et cetera). See [[4]], for example. I propose that references stating that one RELIGIOUS group descends from an ETHNIC group and another from another be taken out. If we are speaking of religious groups, let us speak of religious groups. If we speak of ethnic groups, let us speak of ethnic groups. Above all, let us not confuse these two. There are Christian Arabs, there are Muslim Arabs. There are Aymara in Bolivia that practice Christianity, while there are those who practise their traditional religion. Ethnic and Religious groups EASILY overlap. Let us be so simplistic not fool ourselves otherwise-- this is an encylcopedia, a compilation of facts, not opinions, and should not be tainted by self-identity. Objectivity is key. D.E. Cottrell 20:59, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Lebanese people

What is the point of this article, which was inserted as a "main article" of the section on the Lebanese? Except for the table, it does not seem to give any information that is not already included in this article. Shouldn't it just be a redirect here? Arre 21:14, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

• What happened to the Lebanese people (ethnic group) article ? Clearly many, if not most, Lebanese see themselves as a distinct ethnic group that is also part of the heterogenous grouping of Arabs. They have a distinct dialect, culture and most importantly, a common descent mainly to Phoenician and pre-Phoenician (Levantine) peoples with very limited Arab influence compared to Syrians (mixed Arab-Levantine origins) or others. Epf 06:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Phoenicians

http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature2/online_extra.html

"Today's Lebanese, the Phoenicians, and the Canaanites before them are all the same people."

http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature2/index.html

[edit] Impending deletion of Lebanese musician page

Some editors here might care that the (terrible) page on Nourhanne has been flagged for deletion; improving it (a lot) would save it. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 21:45, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] net migration

Net migration is estimated at 0/1000? Even before the current exodus, is this possible? Dan Carkner 13:06, 31 July 2006 (UTC)