Wikipedia talk:Deletion guidelines for administrators

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[edit] Rough Consensus

In general, only delete pages where there is consensus for deletion. You may also choose to delete pages where many people have expressed an opinion and there is a substantial majority in favour of deletion.

This guideline is bad. It contradicts the spirit of consensus and can lead to some very very bad decisions. You can't have both the dictatorship of the majority and consensus because then the majority will always win out. Not to mention that substantial majority is awfully subjective. BL 15:43, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I had just noticed that myself. It gives two contradicting recommendations. First, it says to only delete where there is consensus, but then it says you can delete when there is merely a substantial majority. -BuddhaInside

Going with Buddha's definition of consensus is ridiculous. You can't keep a page because one person wants it kept. Deleting when the majority (75 per cent has been proposed in the past) is fine. Otherwise you get one person who is severly anti-deletionist who simply objects to anything being deleted. That is not workable. Angela 16:13, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Angela, if you want to delete articles with a 75% majority, just say so. But don't start claiming that a 75% majority is somehow consensus, when 25% have not consented. -BuddhaInside

Ok, I want to delete articles with a 75 per cent majority. I don't claim such a percentage is consensus, but I don't think one dissenter prevents the decision being viewed as consensus either. Angela 16:29, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

No it is not fine. Majority has never been a reason for deletion before and I don't think it is now either. MyRedDice added that statement Sep 20, 2003 and it cannot be considered policy. IF the deletion policy should be changed, it is not the guidelines that should be changed that if I understand correctly is a more straightforward description of the policies, but the policies themselves. See Wikipedia:Deletion policy. And yes, in the classic definition of consensus, one dissenter prevents the decision from being viewed as consensus. The point of VfD is not to delete pages but to create consensuses. BL 16:31, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

But those objecting just for sake of it or to prove a point will never consent. Hence, a policy which demands consensus is unworkable. Angela 16:36, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Then neither demand consensus, nor claim to have it when it does not exist. Having a policy of deleting anything which achieved a 75% vote against would at least be an honest policy, even if whether it is the right policy is debatable.-BuddhaInside

That is what the current policy says: "You may also choose to delete pages where many people have expressed an opinion and there is a substantial majority in favour of deletion." That is being honest. Trying to remove this statement from the page is wrong because we do not (by your definition) require consensus. Angela 16:44, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Consensus requires people to be rational and reasonable. That people actually are, is the reason that WP is such a success that it is. When or if someone objects just to prove a point isn't it possible that it is a valid point that the majority hasn't gotten? Examples where people actually are totally unreasonable and are objecting just for sake are few and far between. Those few examples are not a reason to change something that has worked very good before. It's akin to the idea that only registered users should be able to edit WP pages because there is a few vandals out there.

Your constant reverting is quite childish. You are reverting to a new position that wasn't there before. And you might remember me from such edits as removing "wikipedia is not a slang or idiom guide" in which you suggested that I'd call a vote to get that rule changed. I suggest you do the same. BL 16:52, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Wasn't there before what? It was certainly there before you started this edit war today. Angela

It must have been somewhere before because this is what people do. Angela

Angela, that is circular logic. It wasn't there before Martin put it there three days ago. Does that mean that Martin started an edit war? -BuddhaInside

Well his edit is what triggered it but clearly he is not involved in the edit war as he has not edited it since. Angela

Angela, if you are only concerned with the second part of the statement then you should remove the first part that says In general, only delete pages where there is consensus for deletion. - what you are saying is consensus doesn't matter as long as you have a substantial majority. Since consensus doesn't matter, why even mention it. With regards to the definition of consensus, while I grant that other definitions exist, I believe that every dictionary that you and I consulted gave unanimity as the primary meaning. You also wrote (revert - this is how it has always been done - you can't just delete it now) - I assure you, this is not how it has always been done. Wikipedians were far more reluctant to delete anything in 2001 then they are now. -BuddhaInside

As you missing the in general part of that sentence? Whether anyone was reluctant to delete anything in 2001 is irrelevant - it doesn't mean they demanded absolute consensus before deleting it, so your statement proves nothing. Angela

And what do you think that "general" means? Check your dictionary and see if the primary meaning isn't defined as something like "in all cases" or "applicable to the whole". -BuddhaInside

It is used here to mean "usually". In other words - there are exceptions to the rule and consensus is not always going to be necessary before deletion can occur. Angela 17:13, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Then we are not in agreement as to what the word is supposed to mean. Go back to the definition of consensus and you will see many dictionaries use the phrase "general agreement" in the primary definition. Look up the word general, you will see that the primary definition means something that applies to the whole. In fact, Mirriam-Webster's says that "General Agreement" is synonymous with unanimous. So what you are saying above appears to be that despite the fact that the primary meaning of "general" is "in all cases", you want to read it here as "usually". Fine, if that is what you want then why don't you edit the article to begin Usually only delete pages where there is consensus for deletion. Heck, I'll do it for you. -BuddhaInside

Perhaps it an British English thing but I use "in general" to mean "not always". Angela

Let's get practical. It is obvious that we cannot allow deletion only when there is unanimity. If nobody wanted the information there it wouldn't be there. The sentence above seems to describe two cases, and makes perfect sense if you think of it like that. Deletion should occur if either there is a consensus, or there are many votes and a substantial majority. So two votes for and one against is not a consensus, and although 66% is a pretty substantial majority there should be no deletion. On the other hand twelve for and two against is both many and a substantial majority, so it gets deleted.

Let's also remember we can't lay down hard and fast rules about this. If Wikipedia is not to dissolve into bureaucracy then we have to rely on the judgement of administrators. DJ Clayworth 17:28, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I agree. Angela

How is stating that a consensus is not required an "impractical" statement? Angela 17:57, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I have already explained to you why a writing that basically gives leeway to administrators to chose however they want to delete articles is dangerous. BL

Yes, but as David states above, admins do need to be able to make judgements about these things. Angela

Admins are mere Wikipedia contributors. I think it would be very unfair to them to burden them with that requirement. And unfair to the non-admins whos judgement does not count. BL

But they are also people who are trusted to make these decisions. Angela

I have also explained why such an ambigious writing as "many people have expressed an opinion and there is a substantial majority" is very impractical because it can be interpreted in so many different ways. BL

Well then that needs to be defined better. Perhaps adding the 75 per cent guideline? But it needs to be realised that in the case of a very small number of votes, such a percentage is less applicable. Angela

Details. What is more disturbing is that, more often than not, when a consensus is not reached is that someone is listed on Wikipedia:Problem users and someone mails the mailinglist. BL

I hardly think this is the general case. There would be a lot of problem users if everyone who disagreed on a deletion was listed. Angela

What YOU have NOT answered is WHERE, except for the edit MyRedDice did Sep 20, it states that "a substantial majority" is enough for an article to get removed. BL

When Martin added that statement, he was merely codifying what is already accepted procedure. Angela

Then it was a sneaky way to codify it. No offense to Martin who obviously tried to solve a perceived problem. I don't think it was the right solution and I don't believe it is accepted procedure.

Adding it to the policy page is about the least sneaky way you can do anything. Angela

Neither have you cared to explain how that guideline is compatible with consensus decision making. BL 18:28, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I haven't explained that because, as I stated above, the demand for consensus here is impractical. Angela 18:41, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

How do you want consensus to be interpeted? BL 21:26, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

As a majority but it's irrelevant when consensus is impractical. Angela

A lot of conversation while I was away. DJ Clayworth wrote Let's also remember we can't lay down hard and fast rules about this. Hard and fast rules are exactly what are needed here. There should never be an ambiguous vote where an administrator has to make a decision whether to delete or not. The purpose of holding votes is to have a process where the decision making is transparent, not a process were some administrator is trying to interpret the best solution. Regarding consensus, if the article simply dropped the first part of the phrasing all together at least it would be honest. -BuddhaInside

But there will be times where an admin needs to make a decision for themselves. That's why admins are (supposedly) trustworthy people who are allowed to do this. Regarding consensus - which article? The consensus one or this one? If you wish to talk about definitions of consensus, go to talk:consensus. You might want to add it to List of words having different meanings in British and American English as well. Angela 23:59, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

You misread my statement about consensus. I was talking about the use of the word in *this* article. The language in question was In general, only delete pages where there is consensus for deletion. You may also choose to delete pages where many people have expressed an opinion and there is a substantial majority in favour of deletion. In other words - Hey admin, only delete articles when there is consensus, unless you really want to delete them, in which case a majority will be sufficient. Why even bother playing lipservice to consensus when what the statement really is asking for is a "substantial majority". As far as whether an admin should ever make a decision, no, there isn't. As the article says When in doubt, don't delete. -BuddhaInside

The necessity to make a decision does not mean I am in doubt of anything. What the policy is saying is that consensus is a good thing, but this isn't always possible, so an admin should use their judgement rather than depend on any hard and fast rule. Angela

The author of an article is very rarely going to consent to it being deleted so how can you propose to enforce consensus? If I just create a load of absolute nonsense (staying just on the right side of patent nonsense) and then oppose its deletion - is that then supposed to stay in the encyclopedia? Angela

Do you read me saying "we need consensus, we need consensus"? What I am saying is if you are going to delete things without requiring consensus, then just take all references to consensus out of the article. Why on earth would you pretend that consensus matters when you are saying that is does not. -BuddhaInside

Perhaps I was confusing your views with those of BL who certainly does seem to be saying we need consensus. Perhaps the aim is to get consensus which is why it should stay in, but it should be recognised that it will not always be achieved. Angela

My two cents on what the "consensus" of the Deletion Guidelines, as well as anywhere else within Wiki actually is:

From the IETF's The Tao of IETF ([1]):

Another aspect of Working Groups that confounds many people is the fact that there is no formal voting. The general rule on disputed topics is that the Working Group has to come to "rough consensus," meaning that a very large majority of those who care must agree. The exact method of determining rough consensus varies from Working Group to Working Group. The lack of voting has caused some very long delays for some proposals, but most IETF participants who have witnessed rough consensus after acrimonious debates feel that the delays often result in better protocols. (And, if you think about it, how could you have "voting" in a group that anyone can join, and when it's impossible to count the participants?)

That seems to perfectly describe the process here, and makes it fairly simple for anyone to understand. So I would suggest altering the language to use "rough consensus" (with the quotes). The last parenthetical bit in the IETF quote, I think, sums up Angela's arguments against a unanimous-style consensus, as well as why a pure percentage style assessment doesn't really work either. It strikes me that the "exact method of determining rough consensus" here is the discretion of an admin.

Ducker 02:13, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Well put Ducker. I fully agree. Angela 02:30, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)

A "rough consensus" is aimed for before deleting a page - That fails to state what happens when you miss what you are aiming for. What if you are exactly one vote short of rough consensus? -BuddhaInside

I've tried to clarify the language a bit, but I'm sure Buddha will find something to complain about, since it doesn't serve its interest to concede.

Ducker 05:04, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Ducker's IETF quote is fantastic, and I think highly appropriate for this page. Since Angela agrees too, I stole it. As per usual, revert if you object. I'll go edit wikipedia:deletion policy to match. Martin 22:32, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)

This is good stuff. I agree strongly. DJ Clayworth 13:14, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)

[edit] request or orphan

Sometimes we delete stuff for being something we'd never want a wikipedia article on. In these cases, we should also remove links to that article. That will discourage the article's recreation, which is good.

At other times, we delete stuff because it's crap, but we're aware that a good article on this topic would be welcome. For example, some newbie creates an article on someone that just says "why don't you have an article on this?". In these cases, if that person is right, we should list the article on wikipedia:requested articles.

I think there's a balance between these two options: one of them will almost always apply. Martin 19:21, 11 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I'm with you on orphaning useless titles, but I'm not so sure about listing others on Wikipedia:Requested articles - that's heading towards listing everything that has a link to it but doesn't have an article. I think it would be better if that page only included articles that people wanted enough that they were bothered to list them there - that would make the page more meaningful (mind, the page is already massive, so maybe it's too late for that). I certainly don't feel strongly enough to remove the guideline, but I probably won't be following it myself. --Camembert

fair point. :) Martin 22:33, 11 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I've removed "whether those voting are doing so in good faith" (recently added) from the "Deciding whether to delete" section. We don't "vote", as the paragraph below the list to which this was added makes clear. Bearing that in mind, the question of whether somebody is commenting on an article in "good faith" (difficult to define in any case) is irrelevant, I think - a good argument is a good argument, no matter why it's made. That said, if somebody wants to add it back as "Whether those commenting on an article are doing so in good faith" or something similar, I won't complain too much. --Camembert

But people do vote. A lot of the time, the only comment they make is "delete". If given without reason, are you saying this should not be counted in a decision on whether or not to delete an article? Angela 00:50, Oct 31, 2003 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'd go that far, but I do think that deciding whether to delete a page should be more than a case of simply totting up how many people have said "delete" and how many people have said "keep" and then declaring a winner. Pages should be deleted for a reason, preferably on the basis of a policy page (Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, or whatever). I think it's only really in the last few months that people have been taking the title of "Votes for deletion" literally. It would be better renamed "Requests for deletion", in my opinion. Anyway, I think this overlaps with the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy, so I'll say nothing more on this page.

At a more basic level, though, I'm not sure I'd know how to define "good faith", and it's very odd to have a line concerning which votes you can ignore and then immediately after it have a paragraph saying that we don't have votes anyway. --Camembert

[edit] speedy deletion reminder

Before an admin deletes a page, he or she is prompted with this message:

You are about to permanently delete a page or image along with all of its history from the database. Please confirm that you intend to do this, that you understand the consequences, and that you are doing this in accordance with Wikipedia:Policy.

I think the following should be added:

If this is a speedy deletion, please review the criteria for speedy deletions.

Kingturtle 19:55, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Once we get the new MediaWiki namespace, sysops will be able to change that text, but there are bugs in it at the moment, so the namespace was removed a couple of days ago. Angela 20:30, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)

[edit] re fluff

I restored "fluff", because I think it's fair to give attribution to the document we're quoting, and I think the aside, while non-essential, is a helpful one. I care modeately more about the former, though I don't have a terribly strong opinion on either.

[edit] Window for votes, Comments

After reading Eric B. Rakim's email to WikiEN-l about some articles he wrote that were quickly deleted, I took a look at this page to get a sense just how long a candidate should sit on VfD before it is deleted -- & found that was an undefined variable.

I have no problem about a majority of a quorum voting to delete an article, nor about articles being deleted. But I do have a problem with decisions being made quickly -- especially if it is faster than the average interested Wikipedian can learn about the issue. (Not all of us visit VfD every day, nor even once every week or three.) I'd like to see some kind of Window for voting on deleting a given article: 3-5 days would be good, a week would be best, but I can live with 48-72 hours.

I hope someone else has something to add; I wrote this to start a discussion on this point, & find a suitably wide window of time for all. -- llywrch 01:55, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

There are guidelines at Wikipedia:Deletion policy#Lag times. Articles that are candidates for speedy deletion can be deleted instantly. Anything else waits at least 5 days (on the main VfD) or 7 days (on the VfD subpages, like redirects, images). There is currently some disagreement on what should be done with articles that are both candidates for speedy deletion and listed on VfD. See Wikipedia talk:Votes for deletion and some examples on votes for undeletion. Angela . 02:31, May 20, 2004 (UTC)

Now that you pointed the section out, Angela, I see what I was looking for. It'd be helpful to find a term that is a little more obvious to describe the period for discussing the deletion of an article. (And yes, I admit "window" isn't it.) -- llywrch 02:43, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Nonsense "rules"

I just deleted "# Please do not include {{delete}} in the summary.". If you want the delete template removed then get it changed in the code. I'm not going to waste my time. Rick K 05:37, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] making links to good titles instead of putting them on Requested articles

I aplogize if this has already been discussed to death(I see that it was talked about some last year). I suggest that we change the line "then consider listing it on wikipedia:requested articles" to " then consider listing it on wikipedia:requested articles or adding a link to it on a sensible page" or something like that. I think having a red link(or more than one) is a better way to get an article created than listing it on wikipedia:requested articles. I doubt if most admins have time to do that, so it might not be worth it, but I thought I'd mention it. Thanks for all you do for Wikipedia. JesseW 08:13, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing instructions?

I simply not sure I grok Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators#On deleting pages #11, because it appears to have one step (the move) duplicated. Or maybe I'm missing something? If not, would it be better put as:

If an article title needs to be deleted, but some of the content could be used in a different (existing) article, proceed as follows: move the article from really silly article title to a better title, in order to preserve the history (as this may be required for the GFDL). Next, copy the content to the existing article, with an edit comment like (moved content from really silly article title - see the page history of better title for author attribution). The Really silly article title will then be a redirect with no page history which can be deleted.

If I correctly understood what was meant, I'll do the fix. If not, came someone please explain what was meant, because I sure can't figure it out! :-) Noel (talk) 14:19, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've implemented your fix. dbenbenn | talk 04:31, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Another option for edit preservation

Also, there's another option for preserving the edit history on a duplicate article, when content from it is merged into the other article, and it's one which I much prefer, as opposed to merging the edit histories (which usually creates an incomprehensible mess in the history). I would like to add it here, and in other places where it is appropriate. (I think WP:RfD and WP:RfM already have it.)

If I have FooBar1 and FooBar2, I simply move FooBar2 to Talk:FooBar1/FooBar2, and put note at the top of Talk:FooBar1 to the effect that some of the content in FooBar1 is from the duplicate article now archived at Talk:FooBar1/FooBar2. (One can also put the same message in the edit summary for the edit of FooBar1 where the content of FooBar2 is merged in, but it's easy to miss that, which s why I prefer the belt-and-suspenders method of doing it both places.)

Comments? Noel (talk) 14:19, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Rough Consensus. The infamous question.

"If you think about it, how could you have "voting" in a group you can't count the participants of, and which anyone can join?" . There are answers to that question but, for some reason, some administrators dont wants to discuss them. Admins still refuse to define Consensus accurately, and this is not by chance. It is because they actually want to be able to decide whatever they want, and they acctualy refuse consensus in favour of their subjective opinions.

Rough consensus is not a matter of voting, so it doesn't matter if you can count the participants of the group. It certainly doesn't matter that anyone can join (that is the wiki way). —Stormie 11:19, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] On deleting pages, point 4

Point 4 under "On deleting pages" says

Do not delete a page containing a personal essay or other content from the main article namespace without first posting a copy elsewhere ... unless the content is simply vandalism.

What the? Non-vandalism pages are deleted via VfD every day. As far as I know, no one posts all this stuff on Meta before deleting. Shall I simply delete this point (without posting it anywhere else :) ? dbenbenn | talk 00:26, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, I think that sentence is meant to be parsed as "personal essay or other personal content". But anyway, while I would certainly expect anyone who lists such a thing on VfD to make a good faith effort to let the creator know so they could make their own safe copy, I very strongly oppose any directive to not delete a page which had consensus for deletion just because it contained personal content which had not been copied elsewhere!! I certainly support your suggestion that that point be removed. --Stormie 02:57, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Addition to the guidelines

In a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Votes for deletion, a user recently expressed confusion about "Votes for deletion" not really being about "voting". It has also come up several times in recent VfD discussion threads. The reply below seemed to answer the question and clarify the user's confusion. It was based on the contents of this page, the deletion policy page, prior versions of the header at the top of the main VfD page and many now-archived discussions either in VfD discussion threads or at Wikipedia talk:Votes for deletion. To the best of my knowledge, it isn't written down anywhere in one place. I'd like to propose that some cleaned up version of this discussion be included here so that everyone can see what decision criteria and process are used. Rossami (talk) 21:49, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

What we are doing on VfD pages is not a "vote" at all. The intent of the page is to arrive at concensus through discussion. The "votes" are merely a way of gauging the current degree of concensus achieved.

Regardless of the "vote count", the final keep or delete decision is the responsibility of the deciding admin. That admin is allowed and expected to exercise discretion when evaluating the comments. The comments are far more important than the simple "keep" or "delete" votes.

In addition to the more widely known caveats about discounting of votes by unsigned, anonymous and very new users and proven or suspected sockpuppets, the admin may also have to make hard choices to discount certain votes in other circumstances. For example:

If the article is substantially rewritten during the discussion in such a way that the early comments no longer apply (This is why many experience contributors periodically return to the discussion and either change their vote or explicitly comment no change of vote.)

If new facts are presented late in the discussion which invalidate the reasoning that early voters used to make their decision (Another common reason why experienced folks return to the vote.)

Opinions of experienced users who have demonstrated over time that they understand Wikipedia's standards and conventions may be weighted over the opinions of users who through their comments clearly demonstrate a lack of such understanding.

If the conclusion is completely unsupportable by any reasonable interpretation of policy and precedent, the deciding admin may have to completely override the decision. (A common example is when the vote count says "delete" but material was merged. In order to preserve attribution history for GFDL, we "keep as redirect" instead.)

Comments determined to be trollish or abusive of the process may be summarily ignored.

Comments presented without reasoning or rationale may also be ignored at the admin's discretion.

The bottom line is that it's the deciding admin's decision. The "vote" advises the decision but only that.

There are established checks and balances against "abuse of admin power" and "elitism". An inappropriate decision can be challenged at Votes for undeletion. Users can appeal to other admins. A pattern of misconduct can be addressed through Request for comment, etc. It's not a democracy. It's not a tyranny. It's not anarchy. And somehow it all works.

If the above is part of the Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators why isn't it actually on that page in some form? It seems quite sensible. Esquizombi 00:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Rossami didn't say it is part of the deletion guidelines. It's just a proposal that nobody ever replied to, apparently. I can't think of any good reason to keep it off the page, though. If there are no objections, I'll add it in (with some revisions to reflect the fact that we now call VfD AfD and VfU DRV). Johnleemk | Talk 17:50, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Voting and consensus

It's still not clear, so I deleted the intro sentence to the "Rough consensus" section:

An aspect of Wikipedia that confounds many people is the fact that there is essentially no formal voting, and informal votes or straw polls are rare.

The section from which the above sentence was deleted seems to both confirm and deny that voting is an essential part of the Wikipedia:article deletion process. Which is it? That we vote? Or that we do not vote?

Seems to me it's that we do vote but that we do not want to say that votes determine the result. If that's it, let's say it - plainly. Uncle Ed 14:22, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Version deletion

A comment on the recent addition of version deletion guidelines (thanks, Isomorphic; didn't realize there weren't any). As for GFDL compliance: I recently deleted several revisions of an article due to libelous content in the history; during the time the libelous content had been in the article several good revisions were made as well. In the edit summary for the edit in which I removed the problematic text I mentioned that the current revision contained changes by the intervening authors (which I listed: fortunately not many), then deleted the intervening revisions. It's not an ideal solution but it does at least retain it on the history page. Thoughts/improvements? Mindspillage (spill yours?) 05:22, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Redirect" option

Your opinion please in Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy#"Redirect" option. Mukadderat 23:49, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Personal essay"

There is a text:

"Do not delete a page containing a personal essay or other content from the main article namespace without first posting a copy..blabla".

I am wondering who invented this? Why I I shall bother with someone's musings? This is wikipedia, not Hyde Park. there is plenty of blogs around. If the author does not care, why should we? I suggest to delete this item. mikka (t) 06:36, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] PROD and consensus bypass

I put the following on the article; User:Cryptic reverted it.

===Consensus bypass=== Wikipedia:Proposed deletion bypasses consensus. If no person removes the proposed-deletion tag, administrators are encouraged to delete the article after 5 days are elapsed. No forum for discussion of the proposed deletion is made available. No guidelines are specified as to what criteria admins should use in deciding whether to delete an article with this process.

Since "proposed deletion" is live and operating, some mention of it is appropriate here. User:Cryptic has not responded to me; does anyone else have any input? -ikkyu2 (talk) 23:33, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

The standard way of showing consensus for changes is by failure to object. Proposed deletion does not bypass consensus, it uses the standard way of showing consensus. If nobody objects for five days, the article is deleted, and it remains deleted until somebody objects. Your suggested text is sufficiently wrong that it needed to be removed. The guideline is straightforward, and is located at Wikipedia:Proposed deletion#Procedure for administrators; the most we would need here is a pointer there (not a copy, as otherwise they will become different over time). But it doesn't need to be here at all, because this is really about closing XfD discussions. GRBerry 18:28, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of links

The more I get involved in article deletion cases the more I see admins failing to follow guideline #9 on deleting pages - to delete leftover links to the deleted page. This makes it confusing when one comes across a redlink as to whether an article needs to be created or a redlink removed; I make an effort to clean up these links as I find them, but it would be much more efficient if it was done when the deletion took place. I don't know what I can do about this except make a fuss here. Please do try, admins! Perhaps if it's too much work when articles need to be efficiently speedied then a list could be made of deleted articles that need links removing, for non-admins to clear. BigBlueFish 22:28, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I think that it is a good idea to create such a list. Remember, admins are often quite busy in other aspects of Wikipedia and that could be one of the reasons why some articles are left undeleted. This could idea could greatly decrease the burden of admins, considering how few admins Wikipedia has. --S iva1979^{Talk to me} 15:08, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't suppose it would be possible to make an automated list of deleted articles with links (or even just a list of deleted articles) would it? Deletion logs don't seem to come with the database dumps. This would make it possible to identify the backlog being created and allow non-admins to more efficiently help maintain it. BigBlueFish 20:09, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Closing an AfD when you have been involved in its discussion

The Deletion process states "Non-administrators should not close discussions in which they have been involved."[2] I think this should apply to administrators as well. I propose adding a statemetn to this guideline that says "Do not close AfD's if you were involved in the AfD discussion, unless the AfD has run the full five days and reached unanimous agreement." Johntex\^talk 03:41, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I think this is too prescriptive. Administrators, by their very nature, are experienced and responsible - if not, they can be casdministrated. Also, administrators have a chance to point out why the article is being deleted in the discussion, which could improve future articles. This should not prevent them from closing the discussion. I am happy to accept that some mistakes will be made, but these can be fixed later. Stephen B Streater 06:39, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. Some tightasses will probably go nuts over this, but WP:SNOW (despite its non-policy status) clearly applies. A wrong close can always be reviewed by DRV, and I think it's assuming bad faith to assume an admin who was involved in a debate can't close it appropriately. Personally, I avoid closing AfDs where the result is close, but otherwise -- where WP:SNOW clearly applies -- why bother leaving a backlog? Johnleemk | Talk 14:24, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Blanking of AfD discussions

This page is missing a note about blanking AfD discussions if they requested by their subjects. I haven't found it in the other deletion discussions as well; I'm sure there is also a template, but cannot find it any longer. Any objection to updating this page. - Liberatore(T) 17:22, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Informing the creators is being ignored

This was crossposted and has little to do with the specific workings of this page. Please discuss at Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy#Informing the creators is being ignored. The comments have already been moved. Please do not spam such complaints across multiple pages. Rossami (talk) 19:23, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category instructions

The Category_deletion subsection seems badly out of place. If no one screams I'm going to move it.
brenneman ^{L} 11:36, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Move it where? - EurekaLott 00:05, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:BIO

Should we also explicitly add WP:BIO concerns to the policy declarations in Rough Consensus? It seems to me to be implied in the WP:BIO policies as well as the recent attention to WP:BIO issues. --Tbeatty 00:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Given that WP:BIO is a guideline, not a policy, no such addition would be justified.

This question is prompted by a particular recent hotly contested AfD, which has now become a hotly contested DRV. Editors concerned with the deletion guidelines for admins might want to grit their teeth and look at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2006 October 22#Andy Stephenson as a case study. The subject of the article was a U.S. political activist, definitely on the left, and particularly interested in pursuing the issue whether the 2004 presidential election was stolen. Given the nature of his life, both sides of the deletion debate are inevitably colored by politics. Putting that aside, though, the case raises some important issues about how admins should close a contested AfD.

The admin who closed the Stephenson AfD wrote only, "The result was Delete, per WP:BIO." Several of us have argued that deletion was incorrect, because editors disagreed about whether WP:BIO called for deletion; there was no consensus. In response, it's been argued that "an AfD discussion is not a vote" and even that "the nose count is irrelevant, the strength of the arguments is what is most important." This view gives far too much importance to the personal opinion of one Wikipedian (the closing admin). Based on the example of this article, it appears to me that the guideline for admins needs to spell out more clearly that the admin is generally not supposed to substitute his or her personal opinion for the determination of consensus or lack thereof. JamesMLane t c 07:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Closing an AFD you're involved in

The guideline says "as a general rule, don't delete pages you nominate for deletion". There's a thread above suggesting not closing an AfD you've been involved in unless it's run 5 days and is unanimous. Perhaps not the best wording, but the idea of generally not closing a discussion you're involved in seems like a very good idea to me, and has been suggested by a user (who felt ramrodded). Any objections to changing step #3 under deciding whether to delete to:

3. As a general rule, don't close discussions or delete pages whose discussions you've participated in.

The idea is to eliminate even the appearance of admins acting as judge, jury, and executioner. -- Rick Block (talk) 00:42, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that's an extremely good idea. I've noticed the same issue at CFD from time to time, and actually meant to bring it up here before I got myself sidetracked. It would be a great way to avoid the appearance of impropriety. - EurekaLott 01:59, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

It's a good idea. But, there can be some exceptions. Eg. if the voting is towards a unanimous delete (without any controversy such as sockpuppetry). utcursch | talk 13:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

"As a general rule" is meant to imply there may be exceptions. There's a point I forgot to include as well which is that nominating an article for deletion involves you in the discussion (and the existing guideline has more text). So, the proposed wording would be as follows. -- Rick Block (talk) 14:56, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

3. As a general rule, don't close discussions or delete pages you nominated or in whose discussions you've participated. Let someone else do it.

Wow, I always thought (obviously presumed) this was already policy... as well it should be. Glen 06:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Bad faith".

Not all anonymous edits are bad faith, and ignoring them could ignore very good faith positions (PS. This here is a good faith "edit".) 70.101.147.74 00:43, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Permanently locking consistent recreations

I'm trying to lock Category:Northern Irish women from being recreated per the latest deletion vote (Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 December 18#Category:Northern Irish women) but can't find the process for locking it on the guidelines page. Timrollpickering 14:34, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

The instructions are at Category:Protected deleted categories. More details are at Wikipedia:Protection policy. - EurekaLott 15:11, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Cheers - now locked. Timrollpickering 15:19, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Key Policies

The guidelines page currently reads: "Note also that the three key policies..." and goes on to list WP:V, WP:OR, and WP:NPOV. But there are five key policies as per WP:POLICY 9which combines WP:V and WP:OR and has WP:COPYRIGHT as another key policy.. I'm wondering why are WP:NOT and WP:CIVIL ignored here? They are both relevant to deletion considerations. Also WP:COPYRIGHT is mentioned in an almost secondary fashion. Bwithh 04:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Do not delete essays???

An extremely dubious guideline is sitting here:

"Do not delete a page containing a personal essay or other content from the main article namespace without first posting a copy elsewhere"

Now what? Wikipedia becomes a repository of each and every babble a teenager does for his school project or a kook elaborating his petty General Theory of Everything?

I suggest to delete this item with prejudice. It is an encyclopedia, not a multiblog. `'mikka 18:04, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, this was just brought to my attention... personal essays are decidedly not appropriate content in the main article namespace, and protecting them like they were some holy writ is just all kinds of stupid; I think we can safely strike that one from the list... EVula // talk // ☯ // 05:48, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

It must just be that time of the year. I didn't take a look at the talk page before asking User:EVula about it, but this was brought up in February 2005 and again in February 2006 with nobody suggesting that it be kept (though there was only one person who responded either time, and that was to remove anyway). I agree it should just be removed, so I'm going to go ahead and be bold. ShadowHalo 06:50, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Overriding consensus

A question about the following paragraph:

Note also that the three key policies, which warrant that articles and information be verifiable, avoid being original research, and be written from a neutral point of view are held to be non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines or by editors' consensus. A closing admin must determine whether any article violates such policies, and where it is impossible that an article on any topic can exist without breaching these three policies, such policies must again be respected above other opinions.

Does this mean that an admin can override legitimate consensus not to delete if the article as it now stands violates any one of the three? Or can he/she only override consensus if the article cannot conceivably fulfill any one of the three in the future? What about if there's a verifiable source but it's behind a paywall? Esn 14:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

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