User talk:David Betesh

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[edit] Shalom

Hi David and welcome to Wikipedia. Feel free to contact me. Best wishes. IZAK 04:51, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flatbush

David, I made some changes at the Yeshivah of Flatbush article. It came to mind that there is no article as of yet on Syrian Jews, or on the Syrian community in Flatbush. If you have the time, please go ahead and start one - you are more qualified than I am to write about it. I would call it Syrian Jews and include all the information (Flatbush, Deal, Magen David, important rabbis, ethnic food, customs, etc.) I'll fill in what I can.

Also, see if you can find a picture of YOF (one that fits copyright restrictions). That's really all the article is missing. Take care, DLandTALK 00:42, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the article looks very nice now, but the very nature of Wikipedia dictates that an article is never "done." Anyone, anytime, can edit any article and try to improve it. That way, the longer an article exists, the better it becomes - through the efforts of a collective group of editors. You don't have to take it upon yourself to improve an article, because in Wikipedia, it will improve "on its own" so to speak. That said, yashar koach (or should I say, hazak u'baruch...) on the article and keep up the good work. --DLandTALK 17:33, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pizmonim

Do you think you could let me have the Hebrew wording of the Nahawand entry in your table? As it now appears it is hopelessly garbled, but if we could have a revised version the table could be a very useful addition to the article. I'll try to get round to translating the second "Baqashot" article eventually! --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 09:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I share Ttiotsw's feeling that adding the sources is the editor's responsibility. The article is not for the benefit of "WP" The article is for the benefit of its readers, who will want to know about activities such as those of your society. No need for any argument--just add the references. The project was surely mentioned in some appropriate source, and surely got its money from somewhere, and some announcement has been made and published. It is your organization, and it is your responsibility, both to get the article started and to grow it further. We've given you some hints. If you're going to edit WP, do it right. DGG 00:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I have nominated the article for deletion, as I don't think it's notable enough for Wikipedia standards. I realize that within the Syrian community it's a big deal, but even that much you have not referenced in the article. You can absolutely cite books as references. If you convince the participants in the AfD discussion that the SPP is notable, then it will stay. Best, DLandTALK 17:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
This is how it works in a bibliography or in footnotes of any scholarly work - books are always acceptable. In terms of verifiability, the Wikipedia community can either trust that you're telling the truth, or actually go get the book and check it out - that's anyone's prerogative. The problem might lie in convincing people that your sources are reliable. Anyway, you can comment on the articles deletion page. --DLandTALK 18:37, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Please give us the book references (ideally Title,Author,Publisher, Date, Page and ISBN) - if it has got an ISBN and especially if it's from a known or University publisher then it'll definitely make the article stick in Wikipedia. Even if it was self-published from a notable author it'll probably help it stick. Right now with nothing then it's on shaky ground. It may be that eventually someone goes out of their way to check the cites and verify the exact page and edition (and when a dispute starts on the fine details on some articles it gets down to that) but right now they don't even know which book to look in. Ttiotsw 20:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC).

There is a template, {{Request quote}} reading "[Quote from source requested on talk page to verify interpretation of source]" and also one {{Failed verification}} "not in citation given" for individual citations, and {{Citecheck}} "A user suspects that this article or section may contain inappropriate or misinterpreted citations which do not verify the text." for sections. These should take care of a good deal. Material available online can of course be linked to. Quite a lot of rabbinic material is available on CD, and can be cut and pasted. DGG 22:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I will mention it, but this is not quite enough to make a firm case, I shall say you have added 1 & are looking for more. DGG 16:54, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
of course you should put in the book reference. include the isbn. Dont worry that people will need

to find the book--it counts anyway. If it happens not to be English that is OK too if you have a translation. Get in in today. last chance. Otherwise, plan for a re-creation when there are accounts published. I know they're Askenazi, but maybe you can get the Yiddish Book Center to run a story. They've mentioned Ladino projects from time to time. Another place is Jewish Currents. DGG 00:51, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] West Bank

I'll take a look, but sometimes you have to choose your battles, if you know what I mean. --DLandTALK 03:38, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd be glad to help, but there are two things to consider. 1- POV problems, such as "Judea and Samaria do not necessarily correspond to the modern West Bank land area" or the simple fact of redirecting Judea and Samaria to West Bank might be offensive to both Israeli and Palestinian supporters. 2- Length: WP had a recommended article length that it's advised not to go over. Perhaps it might be worth placing merge tags on the articles you are proposing and seeing what responses we get.

On a separate note, and just out of curiosity, how are pizmonim related (if at all) to Klezmer music? And another question which you may be able to answer since I can't find it anywhere: Have you ever seen (or heard the theme song of) the movie Pulp Fiction? I actually heard that theme song sung with Yiddish lyrics by an elderly rabbi who knew the song since his childhood. Do you know the origins of this song, by any chance? Thanks, Ramallite (talk) 19:41, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Parasha Pages

Thanks for your kind words on the Torah parshah pages. That kind of positive reinforcement will just keep me expanding them! Thanks again. Dauster 12:50, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

And thanks again for your further kind comments this month. I do believe that Wikipedia provides a very good platform for collecting materials for Torah study. And I am happy to hear that you find the parshah pages useful. Do drop a line if you see anything further that I can do to improve them. Thanks again. -- Dauster 23:19, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
You have a splendid idea to add the Weekly Maqam to the parshah pages. Thanks very much for the great suggestion. At your prompt, I have added an entry to Beshalach, just after the Haftarah. Can you follow that format and add entries to other pages as you have time? Thanks again. I appreciate your help. -- Dauster 12:18, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
David, Nice job on the Weekly Maqam additions. And you have the right attitude to make the additions now on the parshiot for which you know the right material, and adding further additions as you come across new information. Thanks for improving the pages. -- Dauster 02:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sephardic Pizmonim Project

Do you realize that other users can see when you edit pages? It's probably not a good thing for your case to remove the delete votes from your article's Vote for Deletion. It's considered vandalism. --DLandTALK 18:04, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Nothing that he wrote seems exceptionally insulting. Either way, it's not an excuse for vandalism - let alone for trying to tamper with a vote! Look, so far it seems like the tide is in your favor, so try to just let Wikipedia take its course. I'm probably the most familiar with the SY community out of all the editors involved in this AfD (besides you, of course) and I'm 100% sure that the Sephardic Pizmonim Project is not notable enough for Wikipedia, given its limited scope and influence. But if the vote ends as keep, then I'll submit to that. The point is that when you get involved in Wikipedia, you have to follow the rules. Best, DLandTALK 18:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I think we should avoid too great a proliferation of articles on these themes: I think one on Pizmonim, one on Baqashot and one on Syrian hazzanut practices (whatever we call it) is ample. The contents of "Sephardic Pizmonim Project" should be merged with "Pizmonim", and "Weekly Maqam" should go with "Syrian Cantors" (or whatever we call it); and a summary can go into the "maqam" article itself. That said, the more information the better!

Just one other point. I think we should avoid labelling all these traditions "Sephardic" without more, as if they extended throughout the Sephardi world. Yes, Iraqis and the North African communities have similar traditions, but they are different in detail and would need separate articles (if we had the knowledge), while Greek/Turkish Sephardim and Spanish and Portuguese Jews have entirely different traditions. We need to say something like "the tradition of Syrian Jewish communities".

Best wishes, and keep up the great work! --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 10:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

In answer to your questions. I think "Syrian Cantors" should be retained, and re-named something like "Syrian Jewish music". It then needs to be beefed up and divided into sections. One section would (very briefly) explain about baqashot and pizmonim, and refer to the two main articles on those themes. Another would be about taamim, and refer to the "Cantillation" article (and link to the Pizmonim site). A third would be about hazzanut: both the general recitative style and the system of using the melodies of pizmonim for particular passages in the prayers. The fourth would be about the maqamat themselves: it would incorporate the table from the Hebrew article (when I have got round to translating it properly), and then the explanations in the existing "Weekly Maqam" article. The "Weekly Maqam" article itself can then be deleted. Does that sound about right? --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 09:58, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Surnames

The original article on Syrian Jews contained only the most common surnames, like Betesh, Gindi and Esses. But since everyone has been adding their two-penn'orth, it has begun to look like the Brooklyn telephone directory.

If we retain it, I don't think we should have a bullet point for each name. On the other hand, to have one continuous paragraph would be equally forbidding. Perhaps one paragraph for each letter of the alphabet? --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 10:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sephardic Pizmonim Project (2nd nomination)

I'm sorry if you feel that I belittled you or the SPP - I never intended to do so. I still hold your organization in extremely high regard, and I have tremendous respect for you as a person as well, for your accomplishments. However, I remain convinced that the SPP does not deserve its own article, on grounds of notability. The proper way to address this is NOT to delete information from talk pages, or to delete the AfD tag on the page - that it considered vandalism and users are routinely blocked for doing things like that. If you want the article to remain, I suggest that you join the discussion on the deletion page and plead your case.

As for the hypocrisy, I said that I would submit to the decision of the vote. I acted consistently with this - the vote was no consensus, not keep. Since there was no consensus, I am trying to build consensus again. We'll see what happens. I implore you not to take this personally - I certainly don't mean for it to be so. Shabbat shalom, DLandTALK 20:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

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