Talk:David Zancai

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This page has been cited as a source by a media organization. See the 2006 press source article for details. The citation is in: Peter Cheney. "An online debate: What's the meaning of Zanta? He may be local, but fans say he belongs in Wikipedia", Globe and Mail, December 23, 2006.

This article was nominated for deletion on December 6, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Contents 1 Zanta Documentary 2 Does Zanta perform for money? 3 Proposed deletion 4 Speedy Deletion 5 Revised article 6 Additional reference 7 Picture 8 Keep Zanta 9 In the news 10 YES YES YES quote 11 Biography "Start" Class rating 12 Actor?

[edit] Zanta Documentary

There's been a bit of editing activity happening recently with respect to the Zanta documentary. The current edit stripped the article down to the barest of mentions, to say as little as "a Zanta documentary does exist". I propose one of two changes:

• This sentence should either be removed entirely, since the reader can already see that the documentary exists by following the references, or
• The article should be reverted to incorporate the information contained in this earlier edit, since a decision to include a mention of the documentary in the article body should be backed up by more details than merely that "one exists".

I prefer the second option, but I would not give the documentary its own section heading; I think it falls nicely under "Notoreity". Consensus? BFD1 16:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and made the change, but obviously this is still open to discussion. BFD1 14:59, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Does Zanta perform for money?

I don't know for sure, and I can't find any sources on this point. I suspect he does not based on personal observation, but we can't insert that into the article without a source. Also, assuming Zancai does not perform for money, I think he still qualifies as a Busker, since entertaining for money is not a necessary condition for buskering. People can busker for fun or attention, as would seem to be the case with Zancai. So I've reverted the last edit. BFD1 21:53, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't count him as a busker (though I've no other word to describe him) as he doesn't really perform does he? I've seen him around Toronto, and I've seen his "busking". As far as I can tell, he walks around, does pushups, flexes and hollers at people. He's a novelty to be sure, but is it performing or performance art? I'm not too sure. I don't really think it is, as the term busker implies some sort of intended entertainment. If he is just looking for attention, then I'm not sure it counts. Chewbacca1010 20:03, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed deletion

For the initial deletion review of the speedy delete, see Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2006_December_5#Zanta.

For the subsequent Article for Deletion debate see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zanta.

I removed the proposed deletion alert as the article does not meet criteria for deletion, speedy or otherwise. The assertion of notability is clearly evident in the article under sub-section "notoreity". Additionally, subject has made numerous television appearances. Article is well-sourced from a number of newspaper articles and assorted other media. Subject is of local relevance and interest to the Greater Toronto Area. Article is not a vanity piece and every effort has been made to uphold WP:NOR and WP:V as clearly shown in the edit history. I would be happy to argue for the retention of this article at greater length in the event this article is brought to an AfD debate. In the meantime it would be helpful if any editors' specific concerns could be addressed in writing so that this article may be continue to be improved. BFD1 18:46, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Ahh but you see the problem is that his "fame" is entirely local to Toronto. I would say there is sufficient notability if say a newspaper in India or Japan reported on him. But as all sources for notability are local to toronto ... Lets break it down shall we from WP:BIO:

• "The person has been the primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person." — it doesnt really count if its only the local/regional paper. The local newspaper in my town of residence (circulation around 35,000 copies) has had 12 stories in the past 10 years with my name in them, and 1 of those 12 was entirely about my business as a DJ... does that make me WP:NOTABLE? I think you'll find just about everyone would agree thats a no.
  • You're kidding, right? Toronto is the fifth largest city in North America. This isn't some hick podunk town. When a few million people know about him, I'd say he's got some poularity. 205.207.78.4 20:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• "The person made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in their specific field." — This certainly doesnt apply.
• "Political figures holding or who have held international, national or statewide/provincewide office, and members and former members of a national, state or provincial legislature" — This also doesnt apply.
• "Major local political figures who receive (or received) significant press coverage" — again this does not apply.
• "Widely recognized entertainment personalities and opinion makers (e.g., - Hollywood Walk of Fame)" — does not apply.
• "Sportspeople/athletes/competitors who have played in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, or at the highest level in mainly amateur sports or other competitive activities that are themselves considered notable..." — does not apply.
• "Notable actors and television personalities who have appeared in well-known films or television productions." — not a filmed/televised actor... doesnt apply.
  • Right now I'm currently watching an episode of the Show 'Kenny Vs. Spenny', in which Zanta has a major role (Season 3, episode 5). This episode has been shown across Canada and the United States.Ruteger 05:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
• "Published authors, editors and photographers who received multiple independent reviews of or awards for their work" — again, nope.
• "Painters, sculptors, architects, engineers, and other professionals whose work is widely recognized (for better or worse) and who are likely to become a part of the enduring historical record of that field" — again, nope.
• "Persons achieving renown or notoriety for their involvement in newsworthy events, such as by being assassinated" — might apply, although making ones self into a news item does not mean they are involved in a newsworthy event. Example of my argument here... no one would debate that John F Kennedy's Secret Service agents the day he was asassinated are notable since they were quite visibly involved in that newsworthy shooting. But would the Dog of a person standing on the side of the road be considered noteworthy? It was there... but I doubt you'd find anyone willing to argue its notability.

The more I look at this list... the more clearly I think it fails WP:CSD A7.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 01:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Speedy Deletion

I have gone ahead and deleted it per debate on irc. If you have an objection with that, please feel free to take it to deletion review.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 01:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Please provide a link to the "debate on irc" that you are referring to.-- Jreferee 13:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• IRC is a chat service many Wikipedians use. It is not archived, and thus can't be linked to. -- Zanimum 15:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
• For the record, I do not use IRC. I don't know who User:Alkivar spoke to over IRC about this article before deleting it, but it wasn't me. BFD1 16:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete, Per WP:BIO, people who satisfy at least one of the items in WP:BIO may merit their own Wikipedia articles. Per WP:NOTABLE and WP:BIO, a topic is notable if it has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial published works whose sources are independent of the subject itself. Zanta has been the subject of (1) McLaren, Leah. (April 30, 2005). Globe and Mail. Who is that capped man? Meet Zanta Ho Ho. Page M1 and (2) Gerson, Jen. (September 12, 2006). Toronto Star. So close to the stars, yet so far away; Tiny Penelope transfixes crowd Going with the Flow nets no result. Section: Entertainment, Page C3. Since Zanta has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial published works whose sources are independent of the subject itself, Zanta is notable per WP:NOTABLE. In addition, per WP:NOTABLE, "Published works" is intentionally broad and includes published works in all forms. Both Globe and Mail and Toronto Star are Published works per WP:NOTABLE. Further, WP:NOTABLE does not require a minimum geographic region for the fame. The opinion that "his "fame" is entirely local to Toronto" as posted by a Wikipedian is not relevant to whether Zanta is notable per WP:NOTABLE and WP:BIO. Moreover, whether a Wikipedian personally thinks a subject is or is not notable is not relevant to whether Zanta is notable per WP:NOTABLE. Failure to satisfy all of the items in WP:BIO is not a justification for speedy deletion and not a justification to conclude that Zanta is not WP:NOTABLE. In particular to the speedy deletion, there is no identified WP:CSD#General_criteria for the speedy deletion as required by WP:CSD#Procedure_for_administrators. Because the topic fails to meet the speedy deletion requirements and the speedy deletion procedures were not followed in deleting the Zanta article, it is improper to require the matter be sent to deletion review. Your speedy deletion of an article under deletion review appears to have subverted the five day deletion review process and appears to be a shocking behavior for an administrator. Your apparent manufacturing non Wikipedia criteria to justify your speedy deletion appears to be a shocking behavior for an administrator. The speedy deletion needs to be undone.-- Jreferee 13:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revised article

I revised the article to be more consistent with other biographies. If I deleted your contribution or switched it to your dislike it was done by accident as it took a considerable amount of time to revise the article. Please continue modifying the article from its present state and feel free to add back in your contribution if I left it out. -- Jreferee 20:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Nice job, thanks. BFD1 20:28, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

But you've mistaken an important point. The character of Zanta arose from a court appearance Zancai made in a custody battle for his daughter. Your revision puts undue emphasis on his attention-seeking television appearances as the source of the character with phrases like "his first appearance as Zanta was on television". And furthermore, I think it's a matter of WP:POV to say without any qualification that Zancai is an actor.BFD1 20:39, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah, it's ok... A work in progress, right? I think it needs to be tightened up with redundant mentions removed or merged. I also think there are too many sections and some of the info can be consolidated. I still think some good information might be missing from this revision but I'll look at it with fresh eyes tomorrow. BFD1 21:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• My first response is, don't confuse me with the facts! LOL! My main goal was to give some needed overall structure to the article. I used Martin Short as a model. I tried to work in the facts as best as I could and extrapolated when I thought it important to have some text rather than none at all as it is easier to modify and move text rather than to discover that it needs to be added in the first place. That is why there was an "early life" section with one sentence. It told other editors that the early life section needed to be expanded. As the article now appears, it does not convey that an early life section is missing. Anyway, have at it! Modify and change to your hearts content. It's all a journey, isn't it?-- Jreferee 02:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

You're absolutely right. The AfD must have been getting to me! You've done a pretty good job synthesizing the old structure with the new. I've tried to brush up details a little and restore anything that got missed. I think the new structure works fairly well and certainly conforms better to a generic biography format. If and when something reputable gets published about Zancai's early life we can fill that gap in, but since it's the Zanta bit that makes him notable, I don't think an early life section will be missed for some time... Until, perhaps, he develops a new persona... Now there's a provocative thought. ;) BFD1 15:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Additional reference

Banned from TTC link (National Post) 74.98.220.153 00:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

That one's gold! Thanks. BFD1 15:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

Anyone care to upload this to Wikimedia Commons, as it is CC-BY-2.0? -- Zanimum 21:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• Done! Thylark 22:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Keep Zanta

Right...so Ill be deleting the Nakkid Cowboy as well...

• The Toronto Star is available across Ontario and online - Zanta has appeared in it.
• The Toronto Sun is available across Ontario with special Ottawa and Sarnia editions as well as Sun Media's Press service with newspapers across Canada and online editions- Zanta has been mentioned in various articles/opinion/letters.
• City Tv is available across Ontario and across Canada.
• Showcase is available across Canada - Zanta was on a Showcase show
• Toronto is only one section of a larger area (with close to 5 million people total) for which Zanta is known via press, word of mouth and online websites.
• Zanta's friends section on myspace has people from around the world via his website and word of mouth
• Zanta's antics have been mentioned in Hollywood news sources and tabloids via the Cruz-Yorkville inncidents.

.72.63.236.3 16:02, 8 December 2006 (UTC)DunnoWhyUSux

The last bullet you wrote is of interest... do you remember which tabloids/tabloid TV shows showed him? -- Zanimum 16:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I saw it during the film fest time while flipping through a them in line at a drug store. The exact name of it I do not remember but I was like is that Zanta! and I am like yes it is. In terms on tv, E-Talk Daily (an Canadian Entertainment News program) had him on in the background during the film fest coverage.

[edit] In the news

This may or may not qualify as a {{hightraffic}} item, but this subject was featured in the Toronto Globe and Mail yesterday, available here: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20061223.ZANTA23/TPStory/TPEntertainment/Ontario/ Can't sleep, clown will eat me 11:43, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip. It's been a while since I read up on the policy of self-referential wikipedia articles, but that may now become a concern for this article. It's my feeling that the above Globe and Mail article doesn't offer much in the way of new and relevant information worth including in Zancai's entry on wikipedia. Ironically, most of the information in the G&M article is taken from the wikipedia article itself. BFD1 17:09, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to see it included, as it is from a verifiable source and now part of his story. Tyrenius 23:32, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair point. I can see adding it as an external link. Not too sure how or if it could be incorporated into the article body, however. If you have any ideas, go for it! BFD1 00:38, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] YES YES YES quote

Might it be wise to include mention of his famed "YESYESYES" way of speaking? A lot of people know him as the "guy in a santa hat who yells YES YES YES". Anyone who has met him knows what I am talking about. --Goyston 00:39, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Done. 72.137.4.154 17:02, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Biography "Start" Class rating

The article was given a start class rating because there is not much information about Zancai's life away from being Zanta. If someone has sourced information about Zancai's life away from the field, please add it. -- Jreferee 15:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Actor?

Can we really consider Zanta to be an actor. He does have a few television appearances, but I would not consider him to be an actor of any kind. I just noticed that he's categorized under Canadian Actors and I thought this might be pushing it a bit much. I'd have a tendency to remove that Category. --Renrenren 15:20, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, it's a bit of a stretch. Busker, yes; actor, not so much... It's a value judgement, though. To me, 'actor' entails much more than merely being in character. Feel free to make the changes and remove the category. BFD1 15:29, 19 March 2007 (UTC)