Talk:David Westerfield
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page. | ||
| ??? | This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article. [FAQ] | ||
 |
This article is part of WikiProject Crime, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide on true crime and criminology-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. |
| ??? | This article has not yet received a rating on the assessment scale. |
| Mid | This article is on a subject of mid-importance for Crime-related articles. |
|
WikiProject Crime To-do:
|
|
 |
This is a talk page for discussion of the article about David Westerfield. This page is not for discussion about David Westerfield's guilt or innocence, unless that discussion involves improving the article. See also: Wikipedia is not a soapbox. |
[edit] Unprotection
This article should be unprotected ASAP. The latest edit is not neutral. Since when do articles have to be anti-prosecution? Furthermore, the user who wants the edit in has a long history of inserting original research, spinning, lying, and a huge bias against Westerfield's conviction. This user has frequently blamed the victim, the victim's family, media, and community for Westerfield's conviction. To them it is EVERYONE'S fault except David Westerfield. He is right and everyone else is wrong. For them, he is the victim and thus their edit should not be allowed to stand. This user has NEVER made an edit in favor of the prosecution, although he "claims" to care about neutrality and balance. I believe the man is guilty as sin but I have still inserted information favoring his defense. I have contributed lots to wikipedia, while this user's only concern is David Westerfield. I believe he did not come to wikipedia with good faith on his mind. Fighting for Justice 22:52, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
- {{Editprotected}} removed. This request belongs on WP:RPP, but will likely fail if it is not clear what the original reason for protection was, and why a consensus solution to it has now been found. Sandstein 08:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
- All right. Fighting for Justice 08:45, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] NPOV
According to WP:NPOV All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly and without bias all significant views that have been published by a reliable source. This basically proves, 196.15.168.40 is wrong on two crucial arguments. First the latest edit in the article is not NPOV. THe line: "the prosecution could not" is not representing the case fairly. It shows a bias for his defense. That's basically my biggest problem with the edit. THe edit that Girdag proposed did not contain that line. That is what I was referring to as a good idea. 196.15.168.40 as usual spins and omits this point. He spins his argument to say that Girdag also wanted "the prosecution could not" line. This is completely deceitful but something I've grown accustomed to in dealing with him. THe second thing he is wrong about is regarding the inclusion of Westerfield's defense. Neutral does not mean we have to give the defense equal weight to the prosecution. What the article must include is viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source. In no way does the npov policy say articles about criminal defendants must contain ALL the main arguments of his defense. 196.15.168.40 can dislike it all he wants but the prosecution prevailed. That's what needs to carry more weight. Wikipedia does not have to give equal weight to the losing side. If he doesn't believe me he can read about it here. This is why I've clashed with him. He dislikes the verdict, so he makes his edits to undermine the verdict and the prosecution. I strongly believe he should be banned from editing this article. Fighting for Justice 07:23, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
The statement "The prosecution could not present any evidence that directly linked Westerfield to Danielle" is TRUE. If you dispute that, then please present the evidence. The fact that it is advantageous to the defense does not mean that it's biased. Your objection is purely because it reveals to readers how weak the prosecution case was. While Girdag's proposal may not have contained those words, neither did he explicitly exclude them - as he explicitly excluded another passage (the police no child porn report). He approved my source (so I don't know why you put "published by a reliable source" in bold), and this is from that source. You previously objected to these words, claiming that they were mine - which they are not - which casts doubt on the sincerity of your next claim, that it's not neutral. You also claimed my quote was from the closing argument, which it's not, and that the information wasn't verified, yet it is. Furthermore, if it really was just these words that you strongly objected to, then you would have removed just them, whereas you removed my entire edit, including what Girdag explicitly included. Girdag's proposal left out the phrase "including sound of the girl struggling", but you didn't remove that from the article. (He also changed "girl being raped by one man while another man restrained her" to "rape of an underage girl by two men", which is not what that source says.) I think you are just using any and every argument you can think of to suppress an uncomfortable truth. Furthermore, even if Girdag had explicitly excluded these words, the fact that you have subsequently added more pro-prosecution arguments, thereby further unbalancing the article, would be sufficient justification for including more pro-defense arguments.
I have explicitly said (not for the first time) I was NOT asking for equal weight for the defense. I would point out that it's NOT an opinion or point of view that I am advancing, but FACTS, and I'm allowing the reader to draw their own conclusion. Making a short statement followed by a couple of examples, as in the case of the lack of evidence in the van Dam house, can hardly be described as "undue weight". It's not a question of my DISLIKING the verdict, it's a question of the EVIDENCE pointing to the verdict being WRONG. What is significant is that it's so EASY to undermine the verdict and the prosecution. An angry community, law enforcement rushing to judgement and not doing their job properly, minimal evidence, innocent explanation for all of it, strong evidence of innocence. I can see why someone who is so emotionally involved would want to suppress the truth.196.15.168.40 17:43, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- There you go again trying to turn the discussion into another guilty versus not guilty argument. How many more times do you need to be told the talkpage is NOT for that!?!?! I don't care anymore about Girdag's proposal. Girdag and his proposal are not the end all and be all of wikipedia; Girdag hasn't made an edit since the first week of February. Wikipedia operates on reaching community consensus. Of course that hasn't been reachable here thanks to you monopolizing the article, and everything related to it, since March 2006. I'm also certain you've turned many people off with your disgusting comments about Danielle and her parents. I didn't say your quote was from the actual closing argument. I said it sounded as something a defense lawyer would spew during a closing argument. Circumstantial evidence cases are considered strong, otherwise the Supreme Court would have ruled against using it to convict somebody. Direct evidence is a good thing to have, but circumstantial evidence is the next best thing. If that line is really that important to you then have it in there. I think most people with common sense will see past your spin.
- As for the prosecution's case being weak; dream on. There is overwhelming evidence of her in his environment. The circumstances and his activities pre and post the abduction prove suspicion and guilt. And, no, it is not innocently explained. The only explanations given are preposterous. A 7 year old playing alone in the RV; only to leave incriminating evidence of herself behind. She didn't leave any toys behind, or make a mess. She was even nice enough to wipe down the place so the owners fingerprints and DNA are not found. Likely took a nap in his bed and never got caught or discovered missing. A pseudo science that failed to determine an EXACT(not approximate or estimate) time of her death. A cookie sale that yielded blood, dog hair, and carpet fibers. You want to undermine something? Undermine for me that there was no chance of Danielle being in the RV that weekend? None. Completely undermine it. Can you do that? Did Westerfield allow anyone in there? Strong evidence of innocent; dream on. Show me somebody else who can yield stronger evidence then Westerfield? What's his name? Who else but him knew a parent was out that night? Who else but him was unaccounted for during many hours, while they were searching for her? A casino he frequented was close to the dump site. Riiiight he's innocent all right. Thank You for showing me the light 196.15.168.40. <lots of sarcasm> And stop blaming the community, media, and law enforcement for the conviction. It is an insult to anyone who has ever served as a juror. David Westerfield has only himself to blame for being at San Quentin. Stop trying to scapegoat innocent people. Fighting for Justice 03:01, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, that 2-line edit IS really that important to me. So, if you are saying you will now accept it, as is, then Thank You, and we can move onto the next point of potential disagreement. In the Pornography section, I want to change “underage” to “apparently underage” (that’s in two places), because the ages weren’t established. Are you agreeable?196.15.168.40 03:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
- No. It is established that they are underage. In other words, minors not over the age of 18. He's been tried and convicted of a misdemeanor charge of possessing images of subjects under the age of 18 in a sexual pose on his computer; underage is a sufficient description. And there is nothing apparent about it. It is like saying John Couey(I suppose you blame the community and media for that too) is the apparent murderer of Jessica Lunsford, when in fact there's been a conviction. Stop trying to undermine the facts. Stop being a disruption to wikipedia. Search for a new hobby already. Fighting for Justice 04:03, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
How was it established? Would you accept “allegedly underage”? The article on OJ Simpson doesn’t state he was, or was not, guilty of the murders, it merely reports the juries’ verdicts. Surely that is the correct way to do it, seeing that juries are known to make mistakes.196.15.168.40 04:20, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
- No, I will not accept that; never!. Allege and apparently are considered weasel words around here. Neal Westerfield and his testimony establishes they were in fact underage. He disconnected himself from them. Clearly, he knew the images were unacceptable to own. It tells me the girls were not 16, 17, or 18 otherwise why would it be so terrible for Neal to admit the images belonged to him? He was 19 years old, at the time, it wouldn't look so awful if he saw a 16, 17, or 18 year old female nude. The media described them as prepubescent. I trust them. I do not care in the least if you don't. I also don't care for your OJ Simpson case comparison. If you really believe articles should report the juries findings then you'll leave the pornography section as it is. This jury concluded Westerfield had images of underage girls in a sexual pose. It needs to say that without you whitewashing it. THe outcome of other cases is irrelevant. Each case is judged differently, I'm tired, of you trying to paint them ALL with the same brush just 'cause you disagree with this verdict. Fighting for Justice 05:21, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
FFJ, it appears to me that you are the one with a tremendous emotional involvement in this case, and I simply don't see that in the logical explanations from 196.15.168.40. It find it hard to look past the rhetoric and innuendo you put out to try and derive what your point is, while 196.15.168.40's points are usually very clear. It would make it easier to discuss what should be included in the article by virtue of what was presented in court or another acceptable source, if you didn't keep alluding to poster's motives. Snidley W 08:58, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
FfJ: “allege” and “apparently” are both used dozens of times in the Court TV and Union-Tribune articles, which are overwhelmingly the main sources for the Wikipedia article, so it would not be surprising if they also appeared in the latter. I’d have thought “allege” was an appropriate word in a legal context. Neal had looked through the loose computer media, which is where most of the “questionable” images were (and even admitted downloading some of the contents onto his own computer), and he worked on the office computers, yet he testified that he HADN’T seen any child porn: further evidence there WASN’T any. In addition, some of the “questionable” images shown to the jury were from HIS computer - yet more evidence that the prosecution were FALSELY claiming that ADULT porn was child porn. MOST media reports did NOT describe them as prepubescent: “They [police investigators] cannot determine whether girls in the photos are under 18” “They [detectives] are unsure whether women in the photos are under 18” (Union-Tribune, February 23 and 24). You may place your trust in contradictory media reports, but I can’t, and neither should Wikipedia. But the bottom line is that you CAN’T prove the girls were underage. Yet the present wording of the Wikipedia article states, as if it were a proven fact, that ALL the images shown to the jury were of underage girls. We don’t even know which ones (or how many) the jury THOUGHT were underage. I’m pleased you seem to be drawing a distinction between “nude” and “sexual pose”: nude is not necessarily sexual. I believe that was another of the prosecution’s deceptions. You don’t explain why you don’t care for my OJ Simpson comparison. My argument was that jury verdicts are merely the opinion of fallible human beings, and should be treated as such, not as absolute, factual truth. I don’t see how you conclude from that that the pornography section should be left as is.196.15.168.40 04:07, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- Listen Westerfield-fan the word "allege" is an appropriate word in legal context IF the person is accused. Westerfield is CONVICTED. I don't read the words allege or apparently when the media describe the images(post conviction). That's why the pornography section should stay as it is. I don't care how much you disagree with it, but it will stay. I will see to it. You want to whitewash it because you don't like it. Stop quoting things from February 2002. The case changed by the time it came for the trial. Wikipedia is not a crime database. It does not have to be perfect. You want the article to your personal perfection, well, you aren't going to get it. I don't have to prove anything to you. If I owe to anybody it is wikipedia. I owe them that my contributions are verifiable. You are a perfect example why wikipedia should have a stricter policy on just who can contribute here. You, who contributes to nothing besides this child-killer article have had a huge influence on it when you really don't even deserve it. I say anonymous IP's, like you, should be forced to register and required to contribute to more then just one article. Wikipedia promises information that is VERIFIED. You describe yourself as a truth fan, right? Well, you are in the wrong place. Wikipedia doesn't claim it contains the truth. Where you get that it says something for a fact is your POV. Your own document "The Body Farm" states child pornography on his computer. Not allege, not apparently. THe wikipedia article states it is one misdemeanor count of images. That suggest one clump of pictures. I know you think the prosecution deceived people and you want the article to say so. You can't do that here! Are juries only fallible when they arrive at a verdict you dislike? This discussion is finished. Fighting for Justice 05:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- Please cease the personal and ad hominem attacks. --ElKevbo 05:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- Reply to FfJ:
- The article states that ALL the images shown to the jury were of underage girls: “EACH featuring underage girls”. You have failed to provide proof that ALL were indeed underage; you have failed to provide proof that the jury thought ALL were underage; you haven’t even provided a media report that goes as far as stating that (not even the one quoted, so THAT contribution is NOT verified). Under such circumstances, “alleged” is an APPROPRIATE qualifier. “Images” might suggest a “clump” of pictures to you, but that merely reveals your mind set: it could mean just TWO images, and certainly cannot be taken to mean ALL of them. The verdict actually reads as follows: “guilty of the crime of possess matter depicting person under eighteen in sexual conduct”. Not very good English, but it makes no mention of the NUMBER of images, so it might just be ONE - and just ONE person.
- The situation with the video girl is similar: no proof of age and no proof the jury thought this PARTICULAR girl was underage. Here you do have SOME media reports stating she was underage, but the reports differ wildly, so once again, “alleged” is a safe option. In view of the fact that expert opinion in law enforcement was that there was NO child porn, you should be grateful that I am willing to accept such a small change to the article. In what way did the case change between February and the trial? As I’ve already pointed out, the police had ALL the computer evidence on the FIRST day, and it was concentrated on a HANDFUL of disks. Or are you saying that someone in law enforcement sneakily added a few extra images later to strengthen a weak case?
- Statements you made: Wikipedia “does not have to be perfect”; Wikipedia “doesn’t claim it contains the truth”. (Don’t shout that too loudly: Wikipedia fans might object.) I’m trying to perfect it; I’m trying to ensure it DOES contain the truth. And you should be applauding my efforts, not fighting me at every turn. My contributions would be the same, even if I registered. “The Body Farm” is not MY document, I didn’t write it, it’s merely one I quoted. If you look at its list of references, you’ll see it relied heavily on media articles, so it would not be surprising if it repeated errors in those articles. I added a quote from it, so by definition my contribution WAS verified, which is YOUR standard, yet you nevertheless repeatedly REVERTED it anyway. Which reveals a double-standard on your part. I call juries fallible because they ARE. I believe this particular jury was wrong because that’s what the EVIDENCE says. And you have been unable to refute that evidence.196.15.168.40 17:59, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
- I don't care. The section stays as it is. I applaud you for squat. Because that's what you've done here; squat! You shouldn't even be editing here because you use an open proxy, which wikipedia strongly discourages using. WP:NOP Fighting for Justice
Unless I'm missing something, this cited reference seems to be pretty clear about the fact that Westerfield admitted being in possession of the child porn. I don't know how much clearer it could get than for him to admit that he had child porn: "Asked about the child pornography in his house, he told one friend, former business associate Carmen Genovese, that he was simply collecting the images so he could send them to Congress as examples of smut on the Internet." --ElKevbo 05:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for your opinion ElKevbo. I've explained that very point to him a million times. And I apologize for some of my comments but it is very frustrating dealing with this user. This user believes he's right and everyone else is wrong. His hijacking of this article needs to seize immediately. Wikipedia shouldn't have to put up with another 12 months of him rehashing the same arguments. Fighting for Justice 05:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- Whoa, I've been afk for a while (a few personal issues, but nothing big), and kinda forgot this existed. As it is, I feel that reaching a consensus on this is beyond mere mortals such as myself, I think the two of you will keep smashing your heads together for a while yet. I would strongly recommend some kind of official mediation on this, as I can't see any other way to reach a conclusion. Sorry that I can't be more help. Girdag 21:26, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
- Well, it appears that the troll's IP address has been exorcised for being an open proxy. Hopefully, this means he'll be gone for good. Fighting for Justice 02:40, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
- Whoa, I've been afk for a while (a few personal issues, but nothing big), and kinda forgot this existed. As it is, I feel that reaching a consensus on this is beyond mere mortals such as myself, I think the two of you will keep smashing your heads together for a while yet. I would strongly recommend some kind of official mediation on this, as I can't see any other way to reach a conclusion. Sorry that I can't be more help. Girdag 21:26, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
