Talk:Dave's Gourmet

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This article was proposed for deletion January 2005. The discussion is archived at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Dave's Gourmet. Joyous 23:13, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion requiring possible edit to this page

Discussions in reference to the SHU for pure capsaicin has the maximum possible value at 15,000,000. Which would make the suggestion that Blair's 16,000,000 reserve is actually higher 15,000,000 SHUs a faulty statement. It is in need of verification. Tina Brooks 03:47, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

• I believe it's verifiable in the sense of the verifiability policy, i.e. what is verifiable is that Blair's makes that claim. As far as I know Scoville units are an organoleptic test (i.e. determined by tasting) and not very accurate; it's not as if the scale were defined as having a maximum at 15,000,000 or anything like that. Conceivably someone could discover or synthesize hotter than pure capsaicin, and if something tasted equally hot at a greater dilution that pure capsaicin it would have an even higher score. If you have a reference that says pure capsaicin measures only 15,000,000, that should of course go in the article too. It wouldn't be astonishing if makers of record-hot pepper sauces were guilty of exaggeration. Might be worth seeing whether Blair's says anywhere who tested the strength and how it was done. Dpbsmith (talk) 11:37, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

• I found at least one online source [1] that says pure capsaicin is 16,000,000 Scoville units, and Talk:Scoville scale has an inconclusive discussion of the issue. Apparently nobody's found a really good source. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:43, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

• I attended the Fiery Foods Show in New Mexico this last weekend and while there I had opportunity to speak in person to the HPLC specialist from the Chile Pepper Institute. She stated to me quite unequivocally that since Capsaicin is calculated by converting PPM from 1 to 15 SHUs, that 16,000,000 is impossible. I have asked her to send me this in writing on CPI letterhead. I will be scanning it and posting it when it gets to me.

• Given that anything higher than 15,000,000 is physically impossible, any reference to any count higher than that would be exaggeration or pure marketing.Tina Brooks 19:18, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, first, I stand by what I said. Verifiability, as used by Wikipedia, does not mean truth; it means there is a reputable published source, and there are reputable sources that say pure capsaicin measures 16,000,000. Second, I think you are misunderstanding the relation between the Scoville scale and the determination of heat via HPLC. The Scoville scale existed for decades before HPLC, and multiplying the PPM as measured by HPLC can only be a conventional approximation to the Scoville scale. That is, PPM times 15 can't possibly be the definition of SHU, it can only be an approximation to SHU. There are really two questions here. First, is Blair's Sixteen-Million-whatever.

Second, a letter from the Chile Pepper Institute does not meet the standards of the verifiability policy, which requires publication.

What you need, IMHO, is a published reference from an industry standards organization that says that the definition of an SHU changed from what Scoville defined it to be to be 15.000 times the concentration in ppm. Such changes are not uncommon in metrology, as when the definition of a meter changed from the length of a physical platinum-iridium bar to the length of so many wavelengths of the light. Dpbsmith (talk) 19:40, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

* Firstly, any "reputable source" that suggests that pure capsaicin is 16,000,000 scoville units, is automatically neither. Regardless of that point, which has nothing to do with the verifiability of Blair claiming his sauce has 16,000,000 scoville units... I personally have seen NO verifiable source that states that he has attained someting that is impossible. Not even Guinness claims that he actually has 16,000,000 SHUs. 16,000,000 reserve as far as I can tell is simply the name of his product. I have yet to see anything reliable that states that Pure cap is 16,000,000 since the industry max IS 15,000,000. The Telegraph article quoted as reference in THIS article states this, then goes on to claim that pure cap is 16,000,000. One need simply do the math.

* the ultimate point of my original statement is that if we're going to state in THIS article that Blair claims 16,000,000 SHUs, that is all good and well, but a source for that claim is required and EVEN then it should definitely be stated that according to chile pepper industry standards, (ie CPI and ASTA) this is an impossible number. As a matter for information only, when the letter from CPI gets here, I expect to have something on THEIR letterhead giving me published references that I can cite that will allow me to publish the impossibility of 16,000,000 SHUs.

Good.

That or simply remove the Blair reference on this page altogether. I can cite published references that say the moon is made of green cheese. They are verifiable, but they are not reputable.

My understanding of the verifiability policy is that, particularly in a case where there is a dispute, the right thing to do is to cite the published references that say the moon is made of green cheese and also cite the published references that say it is not.

Exactly my point!! BUT, not one without the other... or am I missing something??? I know for a fact that the other is so, my difficulty in publishing it in the article is that I don't have the reference. I'll find one, and when I do, then I can publish. Maybe someone else can post THAT first???

* As for the definition having been changed: This link: http://www.chilepepperinstitute.org/FAQ.htm implies this fact and ASTA states it unequivocally, but only members to their site, can see that.Tina Brooks 20:34, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

What's the language that the ASTA site uses? I'll trust you to quote it correctly. The reference you just cited merely talks about a "quick conversion," not the official definition of an SHU. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:54, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

You can trust me to cite ASTA if you like, but I don't have access to the actual published article only the online ASTA reference to it, which is why I requested the letter from CPI. I requested similar info from ASTA, but that will only come via email if at all. They've posted my request for published references on the industry only board, and have told me they will send me the responses, if they get any. As for ASTA's FAQ on the topic: http://www.astaspice.org/faq/faqtech.cfm?CFID=30940594&CFTOKEN=9433920. What it says is this: "ASTA Official Method 21.3, Pungency of Capsicums and their Oleoresins (HPLC) Method is recommended. This is the newest method and was collaborated by 19 laboratories, including private, corporate and government labs. It has been accepted by the Association of Official Analytical Chemists (AOAC) as an official method. (To order ASTA Analytical Methods contact the ASTA office.)" Again, ASTA's membership is quite dear and it will probably be a few years before I myself get in there, if at all. But they don't say 1-15. As I said it is industry standard, what I don't have is a verifiable published reference, which is why I post it here, rather than directly on the article.Tina Brooks 21:19, 7 March 2006 (UTC)