Image talk:Davos Switzerland G8 Summit.jpg

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this is cool, I helped build that cow.

1 The image was
2 link to weblog
3 epigraphy
4 From WP:IFD
5 Rounded S?

[edit] The image was

The image was uploaded by a pov-pusher wanting to point out a connection between the Anti-Globalization movement and Anti-Semitism. This particular protest was criticised for using "Star of David" badges, and the caption originally used on this image pointed out that one protester is wearing an Ariel Sharon mask. If the yellow badge was intended to be a Star of David, doesn't anyone find it strange that Donald Rumsfeld should be wearing it, rather than Ariel Sharon?? The explanaiton is that it's supposed to be a Sheriff badge, intended to denounce U.S. rough-and-tumble World-Policing. Some innocent soul made the mistake of making the Sheriff badge six-pointed rather than seven-pointed. I think there were even Sheriff badges with six points, historically, it's just that the six-pointed star is suffering from symbolism overload. Any political advisor would of course have pointed this out to the protester in question, but that's what you get for being a grass roots movement, authenticity comes with lack of professionalism. dab (ᛏ) 08:33, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dab, I've removed the description you inserted onto the image page, as we have no evidence that it's correct, and it seems to serve no purpose other than you making a personal political point. If you can provide a reference, by all means do so. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:41, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

I have no idea whether dab's description is correct, but the point is: it's plausible, and we have absolutely no other way of knowing what that picture is about otherwise. Dab's description is the only description of the picture I've heard before that it even claims to have first-hand knowledge. Without some sort of accurate description, this picture is bizarre in an encyclopedia. DanKeshet 06:11, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

You mean I have no way of proving to you that I have evidence. But I do, in fact, have evidence, because I was there when the unhappy thing was made, plus I was at the protest. I only later read about "Star of David badges" on the Internet (indymedia, I think, I may even have left a comment there, at the time), and we all went *d'oh*, as that had not even occurred to anyone. The point is that the protest wasn't Israel-related at all, there were masks of about a dozen different politicians. Sure, in this photograph it looks like "Sharon + Rumsfeld", but live it was more like a horde of a dozen "world leaders" gone Berserk :o) I am not trying to make a personal political point, I usually don't even go near political articles on WP, and the fact that a busload of people went to Davos in funny costumes will not help me make one, either way. It's just that, since somebody seems to have decided this image should be on WP, I would like to inform you about its background. In retrospect, I can see that the badges look exactly like Nazi Germany "Jew" badges, while sheriff badges would of course be made of brass, but that really didn't occur to anyone. Well, I cannot help it, if some people want to read into this image that anti-globalization protesters wanted to make some weird anti-semitic reference to the holocaust, I cannot stop them. I told you how it was, and you can believe me, or not. As for the "golden calf stuffed with money, representing rouge capitalism or the globalized economy", I do hope this is perfectly obvious and you don't need 'evidence' that this is what it's supposed to represent. Provided you even believe that this is WEF, Davos, Jan 2003. I was very proud of that cow, and I don't think any symbolism backfired, in its case... dab (ᛏ) 07:37, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

dab is quite correct. It was on the occasion of the WEF. Check G8: there never was a G8 summit in Davos. The 2003 G8 summit was in Évian-les-Bains, and in June at that (no snow!); the manifestations against that meeting took place in Geneva and in Lausanne. Some more background (not on the star, but the event with the golden calf) from a participant at [1], unfortunately in German language only. Also check out these images of that event: ~~I don't see the star at all??~~ (Scratch that, it was Rumsfeld, not Bush. Lupo 08:35, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)) [2] is another image of that performance. Lupo 08:24, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Lupo, I think everyone realizes that Davos is the WEF. Dab, it's not a question of believing or not believing you; it's that it's original research. We have to go by what the published sources say this is, and the published consensus seems to be that it's the Star of David, so that's what we'll have to publish too, if the article stays. Also, how can you personally know what the intention was of the person who made the star?

If you do have personal knowledge of it, just as a matter of interest, what's the word that's written on it? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:27, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

Lupo, can you link directly to the German article about Davos 2003, please? I'd like to read it, but the links you sent mostly mention Bern. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:31, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

It is on [3]; just scroll down until the message entitled "Ihr fallt jedesmal drauf rein!!!!!" from 27.01.2003 18:58, posted by "12th Monkey". His account of Davos starts at the third paragraph. Lupo 08:35, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Lupo, got it. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:43, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

we attribute statements all the time. How about you quote me, not as a Wikipedian, but as one of the protesters involved in this particular event. I was there man. I didn't make the stupid badges, though, and I thought they looked crappy (but the "Star of David" connection didn't occur to me, at that point). Incidentally, I think the image could be useful (provided you buy my version) to illustrate Klein's "The globalization movement isn't anti-Semitic, it just hasn't fully confronted the implications of diving into the Middle East conflict.". It's an illustration of how uninvolved these protesters are with the entrenched memes of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. For them, Sharon is just a politician like any other. As leftists, they think in terms of class, not race, so the idea to think about who may or may not be a Semite/Jew doesn't even occur to them, what they are looking at is who is oppressing whom. This is naive, of course, since the Israeli conflict is immersed in racial notions and the holocaust discourse. In this case, however, nobody even thought of making a statement about the Middle East at all, it's about the world leaders adoring the golden calf of capitalism, and Israel doesn't even enter the picture. Besides Sharon and Rumsfeld, we had Bush, Chirac, Blair, and fuck knows who else. Regarding your question, what's the word that's written on what? None of the statements on that indymedia page are mine, btw. I think I left a comment on another site somewhere, but I'm not sure now. dab (ᛏ) 09:04, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What I hadn't realized until I read the article Lupo sent is that the demonstrators were German, which makes the yellow star even more unfortunate. Dab, you might want to look at Wikipedia:No original research. We can only use material that has already been published in credible publications. Regarding the word I asked about: I meant the word written on the star. I thought if you had personal knowledge of the star, you might know what it said. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 09:12, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

Ahem... "German"??? Where'd you get that from? "12th Monkey" complains about the violent protests in Berne, which caused him trouble on his way back home from Davos. A German would not travel home from Davos via Berne. He'd travel through Zurich and Basel. I find no indication on the page I linked that they were German. Note that 2/3 of the Swiss speak Swiss German language and write in German language... Lupo 09:36, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

credible publications, such as weblogs? I'll be happy to publish a statement on another server, so you can take it from there. really. The protesters were Swiss, for the simple reason that the WEF happened to take place in Davos, Switzerland. dab (ᛏ) 09:16, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

what word? are you pulling my leg now? The star is plain yellow. dab (ᛏ) 09:19, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm... take a look at [4]. Methinks the star has the word "sheriff" on it... Lupo 09:36, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

you;re right... that's possible. Now, would that make me more (because I said it was I Sheriff badge all along) or less (because I didn't remember it was written on it) credible? dab (ᛏ) 09:40, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hi Lupo, it's not the word "sheriff." I've blown it up using Adobe Photoshop, and I've just managed to see what's written on it. If Dab knows so much about it, perhaps he can tell us. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 09:44, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

It is the word "sheriff". Check out the Santa Monica Daily Press from Monday, January 27, 2003 (warning: a 2MB PDF!), on page 10 they have an even better quality B/W version of Coffrini's image. There you can quite clearly read "sheriff", especially if you blow it up a bit to 200% in Acrobat Reader. Lupo 09:56, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] link to weblog

Thanks for finding that. Some interesting discussion about it here. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:18, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

I'm really pained that our idea of "adoring capitalism" should have been spoiled by these stupid badges. I cannot help but wonder if the photographer tried to get the badge and Sharon in the same image on purpose to suggest this anti-Semitic reading. However, since you removed my explanation, I am also removing your link to the "anti-semitism" weblog discussion, since it's at least as much about making a political point. dab (ᛏ) 09:10, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Don't remove references. I removed your material because it's original research. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 09:12, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

references to what? give me a break.

on [5] it is evident that Rumsfeld was the only character wearing the bloody sheriff badge. That's because, like, he was "the sheriff" of Bush's foreign policy, ok? Nobody wanted to suggest Rumsfeld was a Jew (what would be the point of that?) Note there was also a huge (modified) American flag, and a big inflatable globe (which the monkeys were bashing with their clubs). So, if you want to argue the protest was Anti-Americanistic, be my guest. But Semites don't even enter into it. dab (ᛏ) 09:16, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hey Lupo, well done for finding the photographer's name. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 09:25, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

re original research -- your weblog discussion is based on the single image apparently designed to have Sharon and 'badged' Rumsfeld in the image. I am pointing you to more images of the same protest, published on remote.ch, with captions such as

Globalisierungsgegner inszenieren den Tanz ums goldene Kalb. Masken: Sharon, Bush, Powel, Anti WEF Demo 2003, Davos :: DIGITAL IMAGE ::

Martin Stollenwerk, 01.2003

which it is clearly the better reference. We have attribution to the photographer. Date, location and occasion are given correctly. The caption (written by someone who was there apparently) says "anti-globalization protesters celebrate the adoration of the golden calf. Masks: Sharon, Bush, Powel". From the other captions it is apparent that there was even a mask of Bin Laden. While your link is to some random weblog where somebody chose to read an anti-Semitic context into that single image found on the web, without any knowledge of what it was about, or doing any research. So, which 'resource' should be linked on the image page, do you think?? dab (ᛏ) 09:29, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

you will also note that our image is not on the remote.ch page. ~~So what do you mean by "finding the photographer's name"? You honestly seem prettty confused, now.~~ dab (ᛏ) 09:29, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

sorry, I just realize you were referring to Luop's edit to the image page. dab (ᛏ) 09:32, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] epigraphy

ok, I just fiddled with the image.

Image:Rumsfelds sheriff badge.png

I think the inscription is clearly visible, I think it is written with a felt marking pen, you can see how they started with a big S, and had to squeeze in two narrow F's because they ran out of space. The H is not visible due to a fold in the cloth, but we can make out

S.ERIFF

So can we agree that Rumsfeld (not Sharon!) wearing a star with the inscription "Sheriff" is more likely an allusion to the Foreign policy of the George W. Bush administration than to the holocaust? Especially seeing that the Rumsfeld character appears in the context of an american flag modified so that the white stripes are the exhaust of cruise missiles, and other notables such as GW Bush and Bin Laden are beating the shit out of an inflatable globe? (as we can see on the other images provided on remote.ch) dab (ᛏ) 09:52, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Don't you read what I wrote? I told you: I have blown it up properly, and I can now see what's written on it. It isn't the word "sheriff" or anything like it. If you were there, why don't you know? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 09:57, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, go read the Santa Monica Daily Press (see lk above). There it is clearly readable, without any sophisticated image manipulation. It is "SHERIFF". Lupo 10:09, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

but, for the sake of curiosity, what was your reading? dab (ᛏ) 10:11, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Which link, Lupo? Dab, if you were there, and even know what the intention was of the person who made the star, I'm surprised you don't know, or can't find out, what's written on it. Perhaps you can ask one of your friends. It is not the word sheriff, I can tell you that. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 10:13, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

See this edit of mine, where I wrote: "Check out the Santa Monica Daily Press from Monday, January 27, 2003 (warning: a 2MB PDF!), on page 10 they have an even better quality B/W version of Coffrini's image." Lupo 10:20, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

And I really do wonder what you believed to have made out written on that star. Care to share it with us? Lupo 10:21, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Your b/w newspaper version isn't clearer. The only reason I'm not saying what's on it is to see whether Dab knows. I can tell you that it isn't a relevant word. There were people on the blog saying it was Israel. It isn't Israel or sheriff or anything related to the issue. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 10:24, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

Image:Rumsfeld sheriff.png

It's sheriff. Sorry I didn't remember the guy scrawled that on his crappy badge, more than two years ago. You are in Rorschach inkblot test territory, Slimvirgin, sorry. dab (ᛏ) 10:30, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, quit stalling. See here:

From the Santa Monica Daily Press, January 27, 2003.

Lupo 10:32, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm also wondering, if you claim the image is illegible, how you are supposed to know, since unlike me you don't seem to claim to have actually seen the badge? dab (ᛏ) 10:35, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

finally, since the word is clearly legible on the original image, I also withdraw the suspicion that the photographer may have tried to consciously portray the protest as anti-semitic. dab (ᛏ) 10:38, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

LOL! Someone has helpfully pencilled in what they think the letters ought to be. I didn't say it was illegible, Dab. Please read more carefully. If you get rid of the light and the shadow, you can see what's written on it, and it isn't a word that sheds any light on the photograph. It appears to have been something that was printed on the cloth, not written in felt tip. Anyway, enough. You clearly don't know and now we're being shown touched up photographs, so this has obviously degenerated into POV territory. If you were personally involved in this issue, Dab, as you say you were, you probably shouldn't be editing this page. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 10:41, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

Stop trolling. And I take offense at your insinuating that I had touched up that image. Lupo 10:46, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

what absolute twaddle. I shouldn't be editing this page because you seem to have completely lost it. I said it was a sheriff badge, becaues I was there (yes, involved, are you also suggesting that Christians shouldn't be allowed to edit Christianity, or Nigerians shouldn't edit Nigeria?). This was before Lupo came up with the image, which was however published at the time of the event, and not after some drawn out discussion on weblogs. Why would they retouche it? They don't even allude to the badge. Are you saying this is all one big conspiracy, and I knew all along that there was this "retouched" version of the image? For fuck's sake, show us your legible version already, I already admitted I didn't remember the inscription. The badge is cardboard, btw. Also, are you trying to show I wasn't there, since I don't remember, or that I was there, and therefore shouldn't be editing here? What's going on, SlimVirgin, I thought you were a fair and good-faith editor? dab (ᛏ) 10:49, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

remove that 'retouched' idiocy from the image page, please. The colour version I show above, Image:Rumsfelds sheriff badge.png is derived from the colour version, and it clearly shows the same inscription. You can see all letters except for the H. You have no point at all (but feel free to show us your "blown up" legible version. dab (ᛏ) 11:01, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Let me just point out that even some participants in the LFG blog (see entries #65, 92, 168, 250, 252) agreed that the word read "SHERIFF". No one in that discussion claimed it read something else. Lupo 11:11, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

quote,

I don't think there was an intentional double meaning, but the protester certainly didn't care if he offended Jews by wearing it.

there you are, that really about covers it. I should have torn off the stupid thing when I had a chance. I agree it's stupid, and a perfect illustration of the anti-globalization movement not having "fully confronted the implications of diving into the Middle East conflict" (except nobody at this party had any intention of diving into it at all). Maybe with all the discussions about it, it has the notability to warrant an Anti-WEF protests in Switzerland, January 2003 article? dab (ᛏ) 11:19, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What a kerfuffle. The most peculiar thing is that editors I thought I knew seem to have developed alter egos just on this page; spooky or what? Still, I'm glad that I've read it all, as without the discussion here I'd have gone away thinking that Rumsfeld was being attacked with a truncheon by Harpo Marx (actually, perhaps I'd rather have held on to that than be brought down by the mundane reality). I would love to know what SlimVirgin thinks that the word is; I can't see anything but 'SHERIFF', but that's after reading the debate, so perhaps I was influenced by it. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:56, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] From WP:IFD

From WP:IFD:

Image:Davos Switzerland G8 Summit.jpg — a blurred image uploaded in order to imply that the demonstrators in the photo were wearing concentration-camp-style yellow stars. Obsoleted by the higher-resolution image Image:Davos_WEF_Golden_Calf.png, in which one can see that it is a sheriff's badge. Helpful Dave 11:55, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Keep both. First, I had already replaced the original overcompressed JPG of the first one with a better version. Second, the first is a color image, while the second is a grayscale cut-out from a newspaper. Lupo 06:24, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- abstain. Note that the image is now used on Anti-WEF protests in Switzerland, January 2003. But also note that the image is copyrighted and owned by a press agency, and may have to be deleted as a copyvio. dab (ᛏ) 08:51, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Delete. As the link to the other photo indicates, this is a copyrighted AP photo and is a copyvio. --Wgfinley 19:37, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- No, it's not. Its use in the article on the Anti-WEF protests in Switzerland, January 2003 is fair use, and the source is properly attributed. Lupo 19:45, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Furthermore, please note that the copyright for the image is not AP's, it's Keystone's. See also User talk:Lupo. Lupo 20:24, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Delete and replace with the b/w devos WEF version. This oversaturated , confusing image not only is confusing, over-saturated and of low quality (thru over_manipulation?) but is also being used to cast accusations of anti-semitism in the anti-global/anti-cap movement ... see > Anti-globalization and Anti-Semitism - - max rspct 19:14, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Keep Conveys important info. Sam Spade 20:25, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Not deleted. dbenbenn | talk 16:55, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)