Template talk:Databases

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I think this template needs some help.

It links to List of relational database management systems twice. I tried to fix that, but my change was reverted without explanation. Can anyone explain why? Indeed, the article has been added to lots of topics; it would've been a good idea to review the template before publishing it so far and wide.

Here are some other problems; I'd fix them, but the reversion of my previous edit and the large "do not change" comment are a little to intimidating:

  • There's no seperator between "Relational Model" and "Relational Algebra" in the "Concepts" section.
  • The template links to "DB2", which is a disambiguation page.
  • The link to "ODBC" redirects.
  • "Referential integrity" is missing.
  • "Relational database management system" and "Distributed database management system" seem like they belong under "Types of implementations" instead of "Concepts".
  • Seems odd to abbreviate "DBMS" when "database management systems" is spelled-out elsehwere.
  • A couple of links in the "SQL Topics" area go to articles whih are tiny; one of them (UNION) is up for merging.
  • The "Components" section seems a little inconsistent. "ODBC" isn't a database component. Some of the things listed are objects in a database's relational space, while others are features of its implementation.

Let me know how this project is proceeding. --Mikeblas 02:44, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

"Surrogate key" is missin', too. -- Mikeblas 02:45, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Coponents and objects split

With no objections, I've split "Components" to "Objects", and put "objects" under the implementation line. "Referential Integrity" and "Surrogate Key" still aren't in the template.--Mikeblas 21:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

no objections, except maybe for "JDBC" as its a type of ODBC and relates more on the java side. --larsinio (poke)(prod) 21:11, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More Missing

I've added "partition". How should "Materialized view" be added? With a dash, after "View"? -- Mikeblas 14:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Should logical schema be linked in the "Concepts" list"? -- Mikeblas 14:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
what about result set? -- Mikeblas 19:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adding Comparison of SQL syntax

I want to add it after all other comparisons. Any objections? --GreyCat

Seems like a good idea to me. Might wanna fix the formatting, like
Comparisons: relational | object-relational | SQL Syntax
instead of just adding another pipe.
--Mikeblas 20:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I see that Larsinio has made another change without discussing it here. I guess that big comment in the source isn't too effective! What I was thinking of is shown at Template:Databases/Comparisons. -- Mikeblas 00:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
The reason i made the change the way I did was to keep the SQL related items together. --larsinio (poke)(prod) 13:35, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Why not keep the implementation-level items together? -- Mikeblas 17:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough. Make the change its not a big deal. In the future try not to create subpages with the templates. as there will eventually need to be a WP:TFD for the subpages . --larsinio (poke)(prod) 18:41, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What databases to include in the template

The current list of database software implementations is: Caché | db4o | dBASE | Firebird | Helix database | DB2 | Informix | Ingres | InterBase | Microsoft SQL Server | MySQL | OpenLink Virtuoso | Oracle | PostgreSQL | SQLite | Sybase IQ | Sybase | Teradata | Visual FoxPro

Are all of these notable enought to be listed? Cache, db4o, Helix, and Virtuoso seem to have too little market or mindshare to be worthwhile including in a global template. The template shouldn't try to be an exhaustive list of all DB programs.

Comments? Georgewilliamherbert 20:56, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe that MaxDB should be included. This is one of the few SAP compliant database and one of the very few open source enterprise database. True, that the current version of the article sounds like advertisement. Maybe that's why it is not included? I can try to find the time to improve this article. Mbaudier 14:42, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested redesign

I've redesigned a copy of this template on my scratch page, in a way I believe improves the way the products are listed. Discussion is welcome, of course, this page is on my watchlist. Feel free to use it, or improve upon it further. :) -- Limn 17:56, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

         Looks good to me Will henderson 18:06, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Looks good to me - I suggest we use it! Alex Jackl 08:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree, the new one does look better. I suggest we use it as well! Cgsguy2 16:05, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I do agree as well. It's much clearer. I would also add MaxDb (see my previous comment above) Mbaudier 12:57, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I suggest we go ahead with implementing Limns redesign of the template. Unless anyone objects, I think this should be done asap. As far as I can see, there are some DBs missing from the list at Limns page, which are in the list in the current template, namely: Paradox | eXtremeDB | Filemaker Pro | Greenplum | H2 | Microsoft Access | Mimer SQL | MonetDB | Oracle Rdb | Perst | UniVerse. Also, the Candidate key article is not in Limns table. These should maybe be added in? Jerazol 08:41, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of Database products

It seems this list is continually getting added to, with more or less notable products. Should there maybe be some sort of criteria for what is included in this list? For instance the link to Alpha Five, which is basically a sales pitch for that particular product. Jerazol 07:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

What kind of criteria do you have in mind? What you see so far on Alpha Five was not intended to be a sales pitch, it's what I dug up for two editors that were repeatedly marking the article for deletion due to lack of nobility (which they no longer dispute). PeetMoss 15:19, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

PeetMoss: Nobody was "marking the article for deletion" — the {{notability}} tag is not a deletion tag, but a cleanup notice. It would help if you actually read what it says before reverting repeatedly.
As for a criteria for the list, I agree that we need one; the navigation box is too big already as it is. But I can't see any obvious places where to draw the line. -- intgr 17:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I have a suggestion that can help make Wikipedia a more inviting community Intgr: don't bother editing articles unless you're willing to go a little further then a game of tit-for-tat when confronted or when your actions are questioned. The obvious is not always so obvious to others. You may also want to note: "if you actually read it" is a statement that suggests a high degree of arrogance on the part of the party making the remark. PeetMoss 17:45, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Considering the massive influx of vanispamcruftisement articles, sometimes even drafted by marketing departments (I've been directly contacted by a few, Wikimedia Foundation is dealing with them daily[1]), I personally think Wikipedians aren't being ruthless enough when it comes to articles about companies and products. I seriously cannot see why would an encyclopedia need to cover hundreds of different database products, as opposed to for example, generic academic articles about databases; but let's drop that argument, it's not leading us anywhere. -- intgr 18:10, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I find the company/product articles extremely useful when it comes to learning about the development and evolution of databases, whether they are notable or not. PeetMoss 19:21, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Sounds like you would be looking for something in the lines of "history of database managements systems", rather than "Alpha Five" then. It is fine to mention non-notable products in such an article if they are indeed relevant to the history of databases. -- intgr 19:58, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I think a good criteria would be to only include links to articles that aren't stubs. I'll work on this today ... -- Mikeblas 18:04, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, that's a good start. -- intgr 18:10, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree. In addition, the article to be included, should maybe have reached a certain maturity with contributions by a number of editors. EXtremeDB is an example of an article which I think should maybe be excluded on the basis that it's so far only been edited by a sole editor. Jerazol 19:18, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for chipping in, Jerazol. I've gone through and removed stubs, including tagging a few. I think I've also got to the point where the template is included on all the articles that are actually in the template, which wasn't the case before. -- Mikeblas 21:14, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I disagree. Rather then pick and choose which one's are in this template I think it would be better to simply include a link to an article listing all of them, stubs or not so people will continue to expand on the articles. PeetMoss 19:21, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, such an approach doesn't scale. There are lots of DBMSes, and listing them all would make the template intrusive. I don't see inclusion or exclusion from this template as a significant motivator for the improvement of articles. Perhaps a better approach would be to remove the list altogether, and let the template focus on pure database management topics without vendor or product involvement. After all, there is already Category:Database management systems and List of relational database management systems to collect products; perhaps the template should link to those, instead. -- Mikeblas 20:01, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ACID

Isn't it odd that this template links to "ACID" but not to "Transaction"? I think there might be an issue about inclusion of concepts, too, aside from the product list. -- Mikeblas 18:18, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

It does link to Transactions, but in the Objects list. I'm not sure who decided this distinction, and I'm not sure why a transaction is considered an object. Jerazol 13:01, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Oh! There it is! -- Mikeblas 13:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Smaller Template

I think there's already some concensus that the existing template is too large. I've put together a smaller version at User:Mikeblas/databases which doesn't use quite as much space. Is there any objection to switching to that layout? -- Mikeblas 12:26, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't see it justified to switch to a layout which is, imo, a lot less readable than what we have now, in order to save 140px of screen space. I think what we've got now is fine, as long as we're able to prevent the database products section from expanding beyond control. Jerazol 12:50, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
140px is a linear measure; shouldn't you should be thinking about area? -- Mikeblas 12:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Let's not get to hung up on my highly inaccurate attempt at illustrating why I don't think we should use your new layout. The point is, I don't agree that there is a problem that needs fixing. Jerazol 12:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Hung up? I'm just trying to understand your opinion. -- Mikeblas 13:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Okey, my opinion is that we should not switch the layout, ie. I object to switching the layout.Jerazol 13:16, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Er, I guess it's more accurate to say that I'm trying to understand the reasoning for your opinion. But maybe it's not worth the effort. -- Mikeblas 13:23, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
The reasoning was explained in my first reply. I think your proposed layout is a lot less readable than what we already have, and I don't think the modest savings in space makes up for that.Jerazol 13:28, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I certainly agree that the current template is huge, but your draft indeed reduces clarity present in the current template. Perhaps we can break it into smaller boxes where only relevant sub-boxes are shown on articles — the only example I know is {{crypto navbox}}, which transcludes sub-boxes like {{crypto hash}}, {{crypto block}} (wow, that list is worse than the database products list ever was). This would increase relevance as well as reduce the size and number of links. Live examples can be seen at Wikipedia:WikiProject Cryptography#The main crypto navigation box. -- intgr 13:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
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