Talk:Darren Hayday

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An individual covered in this article, Darren Hayday, has edited Wikipedia as Hayday (talk • contribs).

This article was nominated for deletion on 2006-03-06. The result of the discussion was delete (at request of article creator).

I intend to create an article here on the subject. See User talk: Hayday#Your aerticle for an explanation. I believe it was speedied before but he looks notable enough to have an article to me and and High Wycombe is my home town but if you object now is your chance andto do so, SqueakBox 23:34, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Darren Hayday. NoSeptember ^talk 23:38, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I had planned to nominate again, but it looks like he's not alone in terms of being a local councillor with an article... If such people are considered notable so be it! However, I think the vanity could be toned down (this gentleman is a cold-calling marketing expert folks! [1], [2]) and the personal information should have citations. --kingboyk 15:22, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion from User talk page

From User talk:Mtiedemann

The recreation of properly deleted articles is vandalism

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Darren Hayday WAS 4.250 17:10, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

It is not vandalism. From Wikipedia:Guide to deletion#Closure:

If you think that an article was wrongly deleted, you can recreate the article. If you do decide to recreate it, pay careful attention to the reasons that were proffered for deletion. Overcome the objections, and show that your new, improved work meets Wikipedia article policies. It can help to write down the reasons you think the article belongs on Wikipedia on the article's discussion page. If you manage to improve on the earlier version of the article and overcome its (perceived) shortcomings, the new article cannot be speedily deleted, and any attempt to remove it again must be settled before the community, on AFD.

I don't have strong opinions about this article, and in its original re-created form it was horribly POV. I just think that a claim to greater notability has now been asserted, due to having a prominent position at a very young age and much more info has been added, so it is not the same page and has made efforts to overcome objections.

It is unfortunate that we have not been able to agree criteria for local politicians. It strikes me as odd that dozens of one-sentence articles on Liverpool and Manchester City Councillors survived AfD simply because being a councillor was considered notable, yet a full article asserting a greater claim was deleted. Page-by-page consideration of local politicians creates this kind of problem. Mtiedemann 09:29, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Why do believe "a claim to greater notability has now been asserted"? WAS 4.250 10:42, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

He is now Mayor of High Wycombe and the youngest-ever, and 31 is a notable age to be so in any borough. Anyway, the outcome of the deletion page was that the subject and creator had requested deletion, but this is not the case as can be seen on his talk page. Mtiedemann 10:57, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

He has a ceremonial post with no mayoral powers, hence he is not a mayor. That the ceremonial post is called "mayor" doesn't make him one anymore than if the ceremonial post was called "President of the US" it would make him that. Read the on line sources on the page I redirected the page to. WAS 4.250 11:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

In the UK, that is what being the Mayor or Lord Mayor means, excepting the recent creation of directly-elected mayors in London and a few other districts. Given that this system has been in place for centuries, I don't think the title 'Mayor' for a UK civic mayor can be fairly challenged as less worthy than, say, a US City Mayor in a more recent political system. It is still an important position in the UK, in terms of rank, etiquette, etc. the highest-ranked person in an area unless the monarch is visiting. The chairing of meetings and other roles of civic mayors are not ceremonial. There are other articles on Lord mayors of London or other ceremonial mayors in the UK with little other info that have survived AfD.

And the assertion of notability is that he is a) a councillor, b) an office-holder as a cabinet member and mayor, c) holds other offices and d) the youngest-ever holder of the Mayoralty of High Wycombe, a long-standing position. I don't assert that these should lead to the page surviving, I just state, again, that this should be tested through AFD and not by a single editor. Wouldn't it be more reasonable to have this discussion on the article's talk page (with an article to talk about) or on AFD? Mtiedemann 12:10, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

If he is noteable, then he has done something noteable. Having a list of titles is very British, but meaningless. There are babies with titles in Britain - they are not noteable. How much money did he spend in his last campaign? What platform did he run on? Who was his opponet? What were the issues in the race? What changes has he made since elected? What is the address of his office? What are his priorities now that he is in power? Can you see how ridiculous all this is? He has less power than a local boy scout leader in America. Not noteable. WAS 4.250 12:30, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Sadly, in my opinion, there are hundreds of articles for people born to British titles; there are even articles for the heirs apparent of titles which survive AfD and are considered notable because of who their parents are. Hayday, on the other hand, has a direct role in people's lives (which you can summarise by the word 'power', inappropriate as British local government has shared power, rather than individual power), indeed more than they do, under the UK system, whatever you think of it, because he is an elected politician with a historic and still-relevant role in legislation at a local level. It may be British, I am not but I recognise how the local government system works and how mayors have a role in it - and how hard it is to become one at the age of 31, harder than if it were an elected position.

I am not going to argue on and on about this, I just reassert my point that this discussion should include others and be in a relevant place to gauge opinion about what makes local politicans notable or not, in a UK context. Mtiedemann 14:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Adding my tuppence, this is a borderline case. Each town in the UK (and there are hundreds of them) has the right to choose one individual to serve as mayor of that town. This is normally a local politician and they only serve for a one, or maybe two year term. As mayor the individual receives a lot of publicity, because they are considered a notable resident by the local people: in that sense the mayor certainly deserves a mention by an encyclopedia. However on the other hand next year there will be a different mayor of High Wycombe and Mr Hayday, with all due respect, will be another politician, and there are thousands of those up and down the country. What I would have done is merged the notable and verifiable information with Mayor of High Wycombe, and include a paragraph or two of information against each holder of the position. I don't think we can use the old afd debate to achieve this however, as although it's about the same subject, it is a completely different article. In order to merge the content we will need to achieve a consensus to do that, on this page. Unilaterally redirecting this page to the mayoralty article is not helpful. -- Francs2000 14:33, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

• In response to a request-for-viewpoint, I'm unfortunately on the fence; both Mtiedemann's and WAS4.250's points are valid; I agree with Francs2000 - with the extra point that if he moves upwards from here, he'll become more notable and be more worthy of an article. I believe that IF the article hadn't been created by Hayday himself and recreated by what appears to be a sockpuppet, this page would stand; it's tiresome that it's been tainted by that, since now even if it was deleted and then created later or much later by a valid non-partisan e.g. a random constituent of High Wycombe, then it would be regarded with suspicion. It's certainly better than the article that went up for AfD; it could perhaps be reduced to its notable points in a vague attempt to satisfy both parties. For example; his early life is non-notable and non-encyclopedaic. If the article only focused on the notable points, rather than being a short biography, then it would be more reasonable. Notable points would be: first line, mayorship. After looking through the article I'm actually purging a huge amount; his commercial stuff is irrelevant, his hopes for the future are non-encyclopedaic. Most of the information there is worthy of a biography but simply wouldn't be written by a NPOV contributor; while relevant to Hayday himself, in a WP context it's just too trivial. The companies are borderline, but I've removed them too since the companies themselves aren't noteworthy; they're not biggest or oldest or best yet, and his commercial background (read: where he used to work) is right out.

I'm writing a major edit in parallel with this comment; please could the parties from the discussion above comment on it. I'd also vaguely like to AfD the Mayor of High Wycombe page, since it's again vanity and created as a prop for this one. Annual election is by no means remarkable; perhaps it's the only one in the UK, but I suspect the list should be removed completely and the article merged into the High Wycombe page.

Comments? --User:Firien § 15:02, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Firien's edits, the content of the article is a considerable amount more encyclopedic now, although I still think a merge is the way ahead. As for the Mayor of High Wycombe page I don't see anything wrong with it: it contains some valid and useful information, although I would find some way of cutting down the length of the table (maybe having three columns of names, or linking to an external website with a list). -- Francs2000 15:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

When making my earlier comment here, I assumed the list would have come from the town's archives, since it was Hayday that created the article and presumably had access to the information about his predecessors; that's just a guess though. --User:Firien § 16:17, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

If it's in the civil archives then it's publicly available material. He just needs to say that's where it came from. -- Francs2000 18:49, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

If each mayor only serves for one year, there must be dozens of former mayors still living in that town. How notable are former mayors? I ask, because in one year, Hayday will be yet another former mayor. NoSeptember ^talk 09:22, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Hayday 21:28, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can the real Darren Hayday, please stand up..please stand up

Well, well, well..

I am Darren Hayday and this is my story.

I was raised in a real working class hard background and I made it to being the Mayor of my home tome and a potential future Member of Parliament. I lived in a YMCA, the other day I was invited to greet HRH the Duchess of Gloucester, who couldn't believe that I was living at the site and then become the Mayor.

I am currently not a big guy, i am far from being there.. however I am focused enough to make it & I am amused at your comments about me.

What do I have to do, to make it in your eyes?

What have you done, to make any difference to anyone’s life’s?

I have been elected to stand as a cllr, all my life I have had to listen to the crap, that I would never amount to anything and that I would never become anyone.

I've had to listen to the people that told me that I'm not an elected Mayor and that I don't have a Chauffeur or a car to take me to the many functions that I go to.

It seems to me, that there are a lot of jealous people out there, that jealous that just because I don't have a fancy title - that I shouldn’t be here.

I don't know 'Sky1066' but I think that I may of helped him, and I may of given him guidance in his life - I am flattered that he wants to write about me.

I ma the happiest man alive and I enjoy writing for Wikipedia, as I love History and Politics.

I really feel sorry, for poeple that think they are special to allow or not allow people to be mentioned here on this site.

I know that I will progress and continue to help people in politics or in life generally and personally I don't give a f*** if I’m on this site or not.

I only care that if my story can help someone to turn there life around, then I have really achieved something.

So if you want to take my name off here cause I am only a mayor, Cllr, business owner, or whatever - then your do what ever you have to do...

But I will be back!

o)

Hayday 21:28, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suspected sockpuppet activity

Note the contributions and dates of editing of the following user accounts:

• Hayday (talk • contribs)
• Sky1066 (talk • contribs)
• G8 (talk • contribs)

I am passing no comment on the validity of the article(s) in question, because that'll need an afd agreement. This type of activity does look suspicious however, especially considering that Darren Hayday appears to be the only interest of all three accounts. -- Francs2000 11:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Heh, I slapped a sockpuppet tag on these this morning too. Hayday's stopped throwing in his unwikified text too, and has left it for others to format. While I can continue to hope he's not just pasting it in from a file somewhere on the system, it's getting more unlikely. --User:Firien § 12:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC)