Talk:Danny Kirwan

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Regarding "Then Play On":

"His other songs are all on the later CD release, however." That's actually not accurate. Two of his songs are still not on the CD release. See the "Then Play On" page for details. --Sojambi Pinola 15:51, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I guess it depends on whether you're talking about the original US release or the UK one, since 'One Sunny Day' and 'Without You' weren't on the original US release, because they were already on "English Rose". I'll re-jig it so it makes sense. Those two songs were older recordings anyway, so its a bit odd they were ever included on "Then Play On" in the first place. Bretonbanquet 19:26, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I rewrote it a couple of times till I was happy with it - let me know if I've made a mistake anywhere. Bretonbanquet 20:09, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Alternatively, you could just edit it again yourself... I've changed most of your edit back since it wasn't accurate. You can't say that two MORE of his songs were dropped if they were the only two that were dropped. "Without You" and "One Sunny Day" were not dropped fom the US release because they were never on it in the first place. You can't drop something that wasn't originally there. It just makes it confusing to read. Equally, those two songs did not REMAIN absent on the CD release in all territories because in the UK they weren't previously absent. Call it the finer points of semantics, but I'd rather it was correct. Bretonbanquet 18:36, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I guess it's just different ways of looking at it. I think of the UK original as the legit song lineup, since they were a UK band. I don't think the first two "missing" songs belonged to the US English Rose any more than the Beatles' "And Your Bird Can Sing" & two other Lennon songs belonged to the US "Yesterday and Today", even though they appeared there before the 14-song UK Revolver came out.

Yes, they were older songs, but I don't think they were the only songs of that vintage to show up on "Then Play On." Or were they? Tell me whatcha know.

Your rewrites are quite decent. --Sojambi Pinola 06:57, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I think that because "English Rose" came out in the US months before "Then Play On", those two songs were just tacked on to the British release because British audiences hadn't heard them before. That said, "Something Inside Of Me" (also on "English Rose") is the same vintage, and it wasn't available in the UK for some time afterwards. "SIOM", "One Sunny Day" and "Without You" date from October '68, whereas "Then Play On" was recorded in the summer of '69, after "English Rose" had been released in the US. The only other song from "Then Play On" to date from '68 was "Coming Your Way", although I am fairly sure it was re-recorded in mid-1969 for the album. So "One Sunny Day" and "Without You" were already nearly a year old by the time they were released in the UK, on "Then Play On".

The "English Rose" article has a few inaccuracies, like "Something Inside Of Me" being from the "Then Play On" sessions - I might get around to editing that soon. Bretonbanquet 16:43, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=69957&page=3&pp=20

This current thread on the Steve Hoffman board strongly claims that the UK version is an organic whole, with even those older recordings edited seemlessly into the larger tapestry. There are no breaks between the songs, so they aren't just "tacked on." I haven't heard this version...and now I think I really must!  :) --Sojambi Pinola 04:24, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that link. The thing is, people remember the original UK LP version as "the original" and thus everything else after it is not the genuine article. The fact that the two Kirwan tracks were sequenced in to the UK track listing doesn't mean they were an intrinsic part of the album. They were a year old, and long-previously released in the US - and only included because they hadn't been available in the UK up to that point. Peter Green said in 1969, "We don't really record albums as such, we just record what we've got and then make an album up out of it." When I say, "tacked on", I mean that those two much older songs were included for reasons other than musical reasons or artistic reasons - I suspect (though I'm not sure) they were included to make Danny Kirwan more equal to Peter Green regarding the composition of the album. They couldn't have been intended for an album that they didn't start to write till 6 months later. Also, those two tracks were recorded while Mac were still at Blue Horizon/CBS, before the Immediate/Reprise saga. This is almost certainly why they got left off the CD, they're owned by different companies.

The original version is a bit different, and the sequencing makes the difference, but I wouldn't say it's vastly superior. Personally for example, I think it's odd that the Madge jams were split for the original release - since they were recorded together surely they should be sequenced together? But the fans of the original record will never accept them sequenced together... It's impossible to reach a conclusion with which everyone will be happy.

Another thing I remembered – “Like Crying” is also an old song from 1968, originally called “Woman’s Got The Blues”. But like “Coming Your Way” (originally known as “Going Your Way”) it was re-recorded in mid-1969 for “Then Play On”.That song and “Although The Sun Is Shining” were among the first to be recorded at those sessions, plus “Before The Beginning” which had been demoed and played live during January ’69. Bretonbanquet 00:39, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I hope you understand my responses to be in the spirit of friendly debate. I don't see anything crucial or serious about our different ways of seeing this, and to reiterate, I like the tone of your edits.

I think it's odd that the Madge jams were split for the original release - since they were recorded together surely they should be sequenced together?

Not necessarily. The version on the current CD is just plain weird to my ears. Part 2 is played before part one, and it sounds like the jam randomly fades out and fades back in. I think that in their original thinking, these two excerpts (of a much longer jam) were best heard in little pieces, breaking up the mood between the other songs. The original album was suite-like, and the two jams were a returning, motivic part of that tapestry. We get a three minute taste of it early in the album, and then a much longer exploration of it later on.

Albums are not always recorded "all at once," and they certainly aren't sequenced chronologically. The Rolling Stones are famous for recording songs, then holding to them for years before finding a proper place for them. "Exile On Main Street" includes a song or two from the "Let It Bleed" sessions of three years earlier, and "Let It Bleed" includes songs from the "Beggars Banguet" sessions of a year earlier. And so on. But I feel the songs belong best where they eventually chose to put them. "You Can't Always Get What You Want" was left off Beggars Banquet. Why? It's one of their strongest songs, surely they'd want to use it? But they felt it made more artistic sense to put it on a different kind of album.

Simply, "Then Play On" was recorded over the period of a year. They recorded some of it in 1968, and some of it, after a break for touring, in 1969.

The fact that the two Kirwan tracks were sequenced in to the UK track listing doesn't mean they were an intrinsic part of the album.

Except that on the UK album, "Underway" is edited right into "One Sunny Day", no fade or silence, as if they are actually part of the same performance! Which they weren't, but that was the effect the band was going for. Apparently the same is true for "Without You" on Side 2. I don't know this from hearing it, I just keep reading about it. And I really wanna hear it!

Given that the UK version of the album is the version that the band composed and wanted released, I would say that it _is_ the most artistically "legit" version of the album. I think those two tracks were missing from the US album because they changed labels in the US and no longer had legal rights to adding those tracks in the US. The US version cut the songs apart from each other and added banding between the songs. The UK version has no breaks, sort of like "Abbey Road."

They [the songs] were a year old, and long-previously released in the US - and only included because they hadn't been available in the UK up to that point.

They had been released about 8 months earlier in the US, but not out of any creative decision on the band's part. Maybe it had even been done against their will, for all I know. "English Rose" is not generally a collection of new songs....it was slapped together by a US label who was trying to drum up interest in the the band for the USA. It's sort of a misbegotten "singles plus a few tracks from a record we're only releasing in England (Mr. Wonderful.)"

I think they were included on the UK "Then Play On" album because they felt they fit well on the album! And no matter what Peter Green claimed in an interview, the proof is in the pudding...the songs on "Then Play On" hang together, and are distinct from anything else the band did before or afterwards.

As to whether one is "vastly superior" to the other, I agree with you that it is debatable. I wrote the sentence on the Then_Play_On page claiming that it is arguable that the illogical US sequence works! Sometimes I prefer listening to the US sequence. Nonetheless, I do think that those two songs were "dropped" from the exported US release--cut out of the tape, actually-- and not "added" to the home-grown UK.

--Sojambi Pinola 18:12, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your comments, and your opinion of my edits. I guess some of the problem stems from the fact that we don't really know how much of the band's vision of the album came to fruition. We also don't know whether the sequencing and editing was done by the band, or by engineers / producers on behalf of the record company. But certainly both "Then Play On" and the British LP "Pious Bird of Good Omen" (another hotch-potch of singles and odd songs) were more band-designed concepts than "English Rose" was. But neither of those albums included "Man of the World" which had been a big hit in early 1969. Commercially it seems very strange to include the two Kirwan songs and not MOTW.

Simply, "Then Play On" was recorded over the period of a year. They recorded some of it in 1968, and some of it, after a break for touring, in 1969.

So two songs were recorded on one day in 1968, and the rest over 6 months later. Doesn't sound like a plan to me! I mean, it's just as plausible that the US sequence was considered to be the best plan until someone suggested adding the two 1968 songs since UK audiences hadn't heard them before and it would give a better introduction to Danny Kirwan being in the band. Those songs had to have been brought in and added to the track listing, no matter when it was decided they would be included, simply because they were older recordings, on different tape with different producer/engineers, in a different studio for a different label! I just think it's more likely that they weren't originally meant to be part of "Then Play On", otherwise they would surely have been re-recorded during the mid-1969 sessions like "Coming Your Way" and "Like Crying" were re-recorded.

Except that on the UK album, "Underway" is edited right into "One Sunny Day", no fade or silence, as if they are actually part of the same performance! Which they weren't, but that was the effect the band was going for.

I definitely don't buy that - "Underway" is of course over 15 minutes long in unedited form, and a point was chosen afterwards at which to edit it into "One Sunny Day". Clearly they weren't recording the "Underway" jam bearing in mind that "One Sunny Day" was going to be cut in there at some point. This would surely only have been brought up during sequencing, and as I say, we don't really know who influenced the sequencing.

Given that the UK version of the album is the version that the band composed and wanted released

We just don't know that. Record companies had/have a strong input over track listings and it is entirely conceivable that the band had no input into the inclusion of those two songs. I'm not saying that's the case, but that it is plausible. As you pointed out, "English Rose" seems to have been released without much/any input from Fleetwood Mac themselves, although someone in the UK had to have suggested those three October '68 Kirwan songs for CBS to put on "English Rose", because they were previously unreleased, and new. If they were intended at that point for inclusion for the next proper album, they would have been put aside.

I think those two tracks were missing from the US album because they changed labels in the US and no longer had legal rights to adding those tracks in the US.

They changed labels in the UK as well, so the legal aspect seems invalid. That's why those two 1968 songs are on the "Complete Blue Horizon" box etc, and the rest of "Then Play On" isn't. That may also lead to them not being included on a "Then Play On" remaster (should that ever ever happen...) - who knows? Until a comprehensive repackaging of the album, I suspect we'll never know what the intentions were. Danny's not talking, Peter tends not to remember that kind of thing, and Mick and John usually say things like "I didn't know then, let alone now." But it's interesting to try and figure it out. Bretonbanquet 01:19, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Bretonbanquet, you write:

But neither of those albums included "Man of the World" which had been a big hit in early 1969. Commercially it seems very strange to include the two Kirwan songs and not MOTW.

That was standard policy in the UK. Singles and albums were usually considered to be separate entities. If you put the hit single on the album it was considered redundant and a ripoff. Opposite situation in the US.

My point about Underway was not that it was recorded with a plan in mind to connect it to "One Sunny Day", but rather than when the album was sequenced, it was sequenced in such a way that these two songs were hard-wired together into that sequencing. Remember that in 1969 it was not EASY to do fades or edits from one song to another...it required two stereo decks, being mixed to a third deck. This was a very new idea, having been introduced a mere 700 days before with the "Sgt. Pepper" album (or perhaps "Freak Out" a few months earlier). This sort of thing did not happen unless a lot of thought and care was being put into the album. It is very unlikely that this process was done twice, which is what would have had to happen for the original sequence to come from the US. It just doesn't make sense.

To confirm, versions of four of the 14 songs from the UK album had versions recorded in October 1968. Then they changed direction for a while and recorded the "Blues Jam at Chess" LP in January 1969. In January they were also playing two additional "Then Play On" songs live ("Show Biz Blues" and "Before the Beginning") Then, in April, they apparently rejected at least one of the old recordings and resumed recording.

--Sojambi Pinola 06:21, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

To confirm, versions of four of the 14 songs from the UK album had versions recorded in October 1968. Then they changed direction for a while and recorded the "Blues Jam at Chess" LP in January 1969. In January they were also playing two additional "Then Play On" songs live ("Show Biz Blues" and "Before the Beginning") Then, in April, they apparently rejected at least one of the old recordings and resumed recording.

That's pretty much how I see it. "One Sunny Day", "Without You", and the first takes of "Coming Your Way" were all recorded on 6th October 1968 (the same day as "Albatross" and "Jigsaw Puzzle Blues") and an early version of "Like Crying" dated from around the same time. Albatross came out as a single shortly afterwards. I wouldn't say the Chess sessions were a change of direction, more a continuation of the original direction - the Albatross/Coming Your Way vibe represented the change in direction. Also in early January 1969, they recorded "Man of the World" and "Like It This Way", plus the Otis Spann "Colossus" album. Live tapes show "Before The Beginning" and "Albatross" being played in concert. I don't know about "Show-biz Blues" being played live that early (maybe you have a show from this time that includes it?), but it was recorded as "Do You Give a Damn For Me" around that time. "Someone's Gonna Get Their Head Kicked In Tonite" was recorded soon after, plus some BBC sessions in March of "Albatross" plus the blues tunes. An April live tape I have also shows only "Albatross" alongside the blues songs, and only "Coming Your Way" features in radio sessions I know of during May and June.

Then in April they turned to the "Then Play On" sessions. All previous recordings except "One Sunny Day" and "Without You" were sooner or later rejected for the purposes of "Then Play On", but we don't know at what point it was decided those two would be included (that's the important thing). The first album tracks laid down in April were "Although The Sun Is Shining" and a reworking of "Coming Your Way". "Like Crying" and "Show-biz Blues" were also reworked, in the latter's case reworked several dozen times over the following weeks. The other songs followed, and I think "Oh Well" was about the last track recorded at those sessions.

So, barring those two Kirwan songs, the whole album came from the April-July sessions. That's why to me they stick out like Brighton pier. Why they weren't reworked like the other older songs, who wanted them included, when it was decided they would be included, who chose them over "Something Inside of Me" or "Like It This Way" etc - they're all questions we don't have the answers to. In April, they were playing Danny's "One Sided Love" at gigs, and that song had a "Without You" vibe to it - why wasn't that chosen instead? We need Martin Birch or someone to tell us. If those two were intended as important tracks to be used in the future, it seems odd that they were never played live between the time they were written and "Then Play On" coming out, nor afterwards. The only other version of either of them that I know of is a studio demo of "One Sunny Day" videoed at Benifold in late 1970. Nearly all the other songs had a life outside the album (only "Closing My Eyes" and "My Dream" never surfaced live or reworked).

I accept your point that "Underway" wasn't recorded with the sequencing in mind, but although it's undeniable that this kind of editing was hard to achieve, it's still irrelevant. What's important is not the fact that they were included, but why. If it was because the record company decided that they wanted them on there so people would stop importing "English Rose" in order to hear them (and I suspect this kind of reason rather than the band saying they wanted them on there), then they're hardly an integral part of the fabric of "Then Play On". I don't see any evidence that the band considered them important songs, which leads me to believe that they didn't intend them to be on the album when the rest of the album was being done. Bretonbanquet 18:24, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Gotcha. In the end, we just don't know. Very good theories, though. I continue to contend, however, that without a definitive word from band members or Martin Birch, the UK version is most likely the "original," (no matter who was stirring that pot) and the US versions derive from it. "Underway" is apparently quite a bit longer on the UK version.

Hey, if I manage to snag a copy, I'll transfer it to CD and burn ya one. How's that for a deal?  :)

I think "One Sunny Day" has the weakest lyrics on the album, and I agree the mood doesn't fit so much, but "Without You" is pretty darn lovely. --Sojambi Pinola 14:18, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Definitely agree with you on "Without You" - one of Danny's greatest. I'd love a CD of the original LP  :o) Let me know if you get one, and maybe I can find something to trade. Bretonbanquet 23:48, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dragonfly video

Well done with the Dragonfly video! It's from mid-1971, and Beat-Club was a West German TV show that ran from 1965-1972. Despite the comments on YouTube, Peter Green had no part in recording "Dragonfly". Bretonbanquet 17:55, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tag

Can the person who thinks this article needs immediate attention please outline his / her problem with the article. Cheap insults in edit summaries are neither constructive nor pleasant. Bretonbanquet 22:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't take it as an insult. The article needs work. Not a single inline cite to be found...poetic adjectives abound... Look at this paragraph:

During the late 1970s Danny's health deteriorated significantly and since then he has played no further part in the music industry. During the 1980s and 1990s, Danny endured an indeterminate period of homelessness living in London, although more recent anecdotal reports suggest he is now more settled thanks to the support of his family. Despite the 27 years since Kirwan's last recording, there is a small but steady stream of fans discovering his music through the Fleetwood Mac back catalogue, many of whom have been saddened by his apparent decline. However there is a suspicion among some in the fan community that Kirwan is unaware of any popular interest in him, as he lives a life far removed from his Fleetwood Mac days.

"more recent anecdotal reports"??? "suspicion among some in the fan community"??...a couple of glaring WP:NOR vios there. The article is balanced well. But needs a POV shave, at least 25 inlines and some reduction of the NOR. The attention=yes is to promote a positive contribution to the article. Lots of articles are tagged for attention. If this one were to go through a peer or GA review right now it would get raked. If you feel some sort of ownership of the article then by all means...it's all yours to apply the req'd repairs. Good luck. Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 23:11, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, thanks for your input. WP:OWN is something I run from, but no-one else ever has much to do with this one, and I effectively wrote it myself, so forgive me if I take things a bit seriously with this one. I take your points on that particular paragraph - I'm not ecstatic with it either. The point is that anecdotal reports in a lot of cases are all we are going to get. The alternative is removing the information altogether. It's an improvement on the previous quote from a fan... You'll have to explain to me what an 'inline' is though. This will never be GA status because there are simply too many information black holes. I take your point on the woolly sourcing, but the alternative is removal of those sections and adding one-sentence bare-fact statements. Such as "Kirwan was homeless for a while." Don't know for how long, where, why, what's happened since, nothing. That information is not available, except in sparse reports from unreliable sources. Bretonbanquet 23:20, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, inline cites - I get you. I hate them. I could add 500, or none, without anything being achieved. Suggest some statements that might need cites, and I'll do them. 99% of the article is sourcable. Bretonbanquet 23:22, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The lines that jump out as needing a ref, in any article, are the direct quotes. They are usually the easiest to find too. Plus any text that contains a powerfully descriptive adjectives.

Just Browsing through quickly I found the lines:

"Although Fleetwood Mac's hit singles from 1969-70 were all Green-penned tunes, Kirwan's style showed through thanks to Green allowing space for his protegé to shine. He took the solo on Oh Well Pt 1 and joined Green in the dual guitar harmonies on Albatross. The final hit from this line-up, The Green Manalishi, also provided Kirwan with opportunity to step forward, although Green generally stole the show."

They read like a first hand account. Or perhaps something from a review? That's more of an example of OR than a {cn} but it reads so "matter of factly" that some sort of reference should be in place to remove the WP:NOR feel of it.

"Kirwan and Welch did not always get on well personally, but musically their styles gelled superbly. The last two Fleetwood Mac albums to feature Kirwan showed a fast-growing maturity in his songwriting and playing, his songs taking up about half of each album. His sound also showed strongly in several songs written by Welch and McVie, as they developed the vibe that would propel the band towards superstardom in the mid-1970s."

"Before a concert on a US tour, Kirwan and Welch rowed over tuning and Kirwan flew into a rage, smashing his guitar and refusing to go onstage. Instead he watched while Mac struggled through without him, only to offer criticism afterwards. Kirwan had to be sacked by Fleetwood, who had hitherto been the only other member still speaking to him."

...Are 2 more example similar to the first one. They are written, very poetically, like an ey-witness report. Maybe a {citebook} ref is available to use as foundations for those types of atatements. They all read like they were paraphrased from an FM biography? Maybe? Like you, I don't think the content should be removed. But the article should maintain some amount of encyclopedic integrity. People should know who this artist was. For many Wikipedia is the only sourced for interesting bios of long forgotten guitar heroes. Most people don't know there was a Fleetwood Mac prior to the Rumours album. But they should. Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 23:47, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

That's very helpful, thanks. I've spotted a couple of things just now and changed them - POV words etc. I will do more tomorrow. I understand your point that some of it looks like it's paraphrased from a FM biography. It's not, but I guess I wrote it in that style - it's basically a mixture of what I've read over many years. This was the first thing I wrote for Wikipedia and I did things I wouldn't do now. I can perhaps find a couple of more reliable quotes on the homeless period, and I can certainly cite the direct quotes, and cite other stuff that looks a bit like OR. I hadn't considered that anyone else would think Kirwan was worth creating a perfect article about, but of course, he is - so I'll try to do that. Obviously anyone else's input is welcome. Bretonbanquet 23:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

How reliable is "The Penguin"? I've been nrowing through it quickly and it looks like a very good, detailed site(albeit a "taboo" fansite) Can content from it pass WP:V? Just curious.Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 21:33, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

It's a good, reliable site, but still a fansite. I am only using the one-to-one interviews with band members, which I imagine won't cause any problems...? Bretonbanquet 22:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)