Talk:Danny Boy

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Um, WHOA. Shouldn't this article be about the more famous IRISH SONG?! Mike H 17:45, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Two versions 2 National anthem issue 3 Names added to this Article 4 Sing-a-long, anybody? 5 Glens and Snow

[edit] Two versions

If you come across the phrase "There are at least two versions of the story behind this song" followed by two stories such as at [1], be aware that this is an internet myth and has nothing to do with how or why it was written. I have had to remove the stories twice so far. --Henrygb 22:12, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Removed the phrase "from a woman to a man" in the first sentence. The External Link The Mystery Solved (for one), clearly explains why this is not necessarily the case. It was the composer's intention to be vague about this point, allowing the audience to read into the lyric whatever they wanted to. This allows for greater flexibilty in its presentation. B00P 01:18, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually that link produces near contemporary evidence the other way, namely that a 1918 edition said that "Eily Dear" instead of "Danny Boy" should be used if sung by a man. Reverting back --Henrygb 02:39, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Some readers of that website might find that particluar argument persuasive, but I think the Michael Robinson is trying to lay out several contradictory interpretations, and to ultimately conclude that Weatherly was being deliberately ambiguous. And in Robinson's comments on the "Eily Dear" theory, he points out that the "Eily Dear" comment was not present on the 1913 publication. He suggests it may have been added between 1913 and 1918 by someone other than Weatherly. I suggest we acknowledge the different interpretations in the article. --Allen 04:37, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

But there is no evidence that Wetherby was trying to be ambiguous. The 1918 point shows that someone was clear early on. All the other evidence (first recording by a woman, Wetherby's tribute to Ellen Terry etc.) also points the same way. It is a song to a man, and fairly obviously from his lover. --Henrygb 01:13, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

That seems like a good argument to me personally. But to use Robinson's webpage to argue against the point he's trying to make seems like original research. If the article is to treat woman-to-her-lover as the consensus interpretation, and not mention that some people disagree, then it should ideally cite a source making that argument, and it definitely shouldn't cite Robinson. But I think the easier and more NPOV solution would be to keep the Robinson source, and simply say that some people hear the song as a woman to her lover, and some other people find it ambiguous. --Allen 02:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

There is no justification for saying it is ambiguous, just because of Robinson's general view of art - he seems be be arguing that art is in the eye (ear) of the beholder, while knocking down most of the alternative interpretations. My personal view is that when written the lyrics was probably originally located in the Scottish Highlands, before being associated with an Irish tune. Inserting that would be original research. --Henrygb 12:41, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Huh. I've always interpreted as being sung from a parent to their son. --Angr 12:09, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I don't know where I heard that, but I have, several times. I have added this interpretation to the article. Even though the song was written before World War I, it sounds like it's about a father who is upset that his son is going off to war (I say father because the song seems to be sung most often by a man). It makes more sense for a parent to think he/she would be dead soon than a lover. Academic Challenger 06:53, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't it be mentioned that this is often sung as an elegy or funeral dirge? I've actually never seen or heard the song used in any other way but as a final farewell. --Anonymous

I have only ever heard this sung as from a father about his son going to war. It wasn't until I heard Sinead O'Connor's version that it even occured to me that it would be considered to come from a female voice. I have only very rarely heard it sung by women. And I noticed someone deleted the additional political slant to it. Granted, those aren't the original lyrics, but since this is a folk song, and folk music is constantly being re-written, wouldn't it be prudent to include those lyrics? I know many people who purposefully include those lyrics into their renditions of "Danny Boy." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.139.7.64 (talk • contribs).

It is not a folk song - it was written by Frederick Weatherly as one of his many commercial songs and most of the recording artists were not natural folk singers. The Londonderry Air tune might be seen as Irish folk music, but it has had many different lyrics atached to it. --Henrygb 22:23, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

It is a folk song in the same way that the songs Phil Coulter, Bob Dylan, and Ewan McColl wrote have become folk songs -- perhaps even more so because only those people who have taken the time to research the song would know that it's writer is known. The tune itself is most indeed a folk tune, much in the same way the song known as "My Lagan Love," is a folk tune, and there have been many, many different lyrics put to that song. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.139.7.64 (talk • contribs).

I'm still not comfortable with the lover interpretation being presented as correct when we provide no source for that point of view. As I have argued before, the only source provided that discusses this issue is the Robinson website, and Robinson argues that the relationship of the characters is deliberately ambiguous. Henrygb, do you know of any reliable source that argues for the lover interpretation? My real opinion is that the article should say that there are three conflicting interpretations: 1) lover-to-lover, 2) parent-to-child, and 3) deliberate ambiguity. I'd be willing to compromise for the current state of the article (presenting lover-to-lover as correct, but mentioning other interpretations), but let's at least have one source backing it up. --Allen 02:06, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

We have early evidence of a woman singing

• The lyrics themselves imply a lover (at the time that would inevitably have been of the opposite sex to Danny)
• The first recording in 1915 was by a woman
• The alternative words when sung by a man "Eily Dear" in a version printed in 1918 but copyright 1913
• Wetherby's letter to the Sunday Times in 1928 that the second verse was a fitting requiem for Ellen Terry

In addition, the man father/son claims are generally associated with the assumption that it was originally written as an Irish song (for which there is no evidence - to English ears "pipes" and "glen" usually imply Scotland) and a nationalist song (which Wetherby explicitly denied) thus casting doubt on them --Henrygb 03:18, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that you're wrong about Wetherby's intent; I don't have an opinion on that. My argument is about whether or not the lover interpretation, correct though it may be, needs to be attributed to a person or group. My understanding of WP:NPOV is that if a viewpoint has consensus among recognized experts in the relevant field, then it can be stated as fact, but if there is controversy, then the viewpoint needs to be presented as "Group X believes Y based on argument Z". Do you have a different interpretation of NPOV policy than I do? Or is it that you feel the lover interpretation is in fact a consensus interpretation? --Allen 01:27, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

The beauty of the song is that the subjects can be anyone that the listener chooses them to be - lover to lover, father to son, mother to son etc - I personally beleive the original intention was parent to child - but at this stage it doesn't matter - the concept of Father to son I think has developed strongly simply because the song is mostly done buy Irish Tenors to show off their vocal range - there are some very difficult notes to hold and at a fairly high range too- you have to be a great singer to do Danny Boy justice - it is overall a song about life, loss, love and hope -. We have to remember that the song reflects a period in Irish history that was very grim - parents parted with their children knowing that they would never see them again but also knew that in order for the children to succeed in life they had to leave. However the song can relate to the turbulent history of war in Ireland - the words "The Pipes are Calling from Glen to Glen and Down the Mountain side - tis you must go" - The pipes were used to sound the call to arms, particualrly in Northern Ireland where the song originates thus Danny has to go off to battle with the other young men of the area - "Tis you must go and I must bide" the acceptance that there is no choice - The "but Come Ye Back" is also indicative of an expected return - "when the summers' in the meadow or the glen is hushed and white with snow" going off to battle seems the reasonable scenario. But each listener can have their own interpretation.

Personally, i'm under the impression that the author intentionally left his lyrics gender ambiguous to widen the number of singers to buy his sheet music. That said, i have a hard time reading Danny Boy as being sung by anyone other than an elder male relative. Why else would there be an entire line dedicated to emphasizing who must go? It doesn't make sense, linguistically, to repeat "tis you", except for emphasis, an emphasis furthered by putting "you" at the head position of the phrase (English normally tending towards head finality). Emphasis, in turn, only makes sense to me if it's a change, such as from the singer being called off to war leaving Danny to bide time at home, to the reverse. While, true, it could be simply a change from Danny not going to going, that wouldn't explain why the singer would say "i must bide", as that would be a given with a woman at that point. Between that, and the fear that he well may be dead when Danny returns, implies that it's an older, or infirm relative. Londubh 23:19, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

As the person who provided the words (for a male singer) to the Robinson website, I would be quite happy to provide a photocopy of the 1918 sheet music to someone willing to 'host' it as a JPEG or whatever, and thus allow it to be linked here. This would, perhaps, allow the discussion to centre around the 'released' version of the song. The 1918 sheet music is 'authorised' by the facsimile of Fred Weatherly's signature on the cover. On line copies of the 1913 sheet music seem to show authorisation by the facsimile signature of 'Boosey & Co'. Which would be considered more likely to show the original author's intent? Nigel Parsons 16.10.06

[edit] National anthem issue

Northern Ireland is technically a part of England or rather Britain/the UK so I think this song was quite deliberately chosen as the national anthem as it combines English and Irish music. Worth noting? Bowen 00:17, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Northern Ireland is not a part of England; the music is not English though the words are by an Englishman. We don't know why it was chosen, but we might guess because the music was collected by someone who lived in what is now Northern Ireland, while the song is popular and not obviously sectarian. But that speculation is hardly encyclopedic. --Henrygb 02:42, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

For me, it is the most loveliest gay love song :-) <eg> (and the Harry Belafonte version is the most moving...)

I suppose by your standards the Clancy Brothers rendition of "Jackets Green" that is about a young girl in 1798 is about cross dressers because it is men singing a song about a girl e.g it starts off "When I was a maiden, young and fair". Irish traditional songs are stories and are often sung by the opposite sex of what the story is about - Judy Collins singing "The Patriot Game" which is about a 16 year old boy etc.

[edit] Names added to this Article

Danny Boy is also the stage name of Chicago native Daniel Ray, a contemporary African-American soul singer.

Danny Boy is also the name of a comedian.

This article is exclusively about the SONG DANNY BOY - not an article about people named or using the name Danny Boy - if you want to have these individuals included in a Wikipedia Article - create one for them but they do not belong in this list unless they have relevance to the song or history of the song which is what it is for. 86.12.253.32 13:31, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. I think those lines were fine; they'll help readers find the articles they may be looking for. You might want to look at WP:DAB#Top_links; disambiguation lines like these are pretty normal on Wikipedia articles. --Allen 15:58, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps another heading should be within the article (after the external links) relating to the song to separate the text relating to the song for which this article initally was set-up and text related to people using the name "Danny Boy" that has relevance to the words Danny Boy but not the song 86.12.253.32 20:18, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

The Wikipedia style is for disambiguation at the top. As for the origin of this article, it said "Danny Boy, real name Daniel Ray, is a contempary African-American soul singer. He is signed to Death Row Records, or "Tha Row". He made his debut on 1994's Murder Was The Case soundtrack. Best known for singing the choruses of 2pac songs like "I Ain't Mad At 'Cha", "Picture Me Rollin'", and "Toss It Up". He is currently working on his solo album with Tha Row." [2] --Henrygb 01:11, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sing-a-long, anybody?

Since weatherly died 75 years ago, I assume the song is public domain? If so, I think it would be great if we could get someone to sing a GPL-licensed recording of the song to put on the article!Borisblue 14:15, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Glens and Snow

Your comment on the Danny Boy history page states the words "glen and snow" suggests Scotland. Why? Glens are quite common in Ireland and Scotland does not have a monopoly on snow. There are thousands of towns in Ireland whose names begin with Glen. The Scots and the Irish are virtually the same race with a common language and culture there are 'loughs' in Ireland and 'lochs' in Scotland but there are Glens in both! Danny Boy is associated with Ireland (wheter right or wrong that is teh reality of it - ) the history of the song is linked to Northern Ireland and the similarity between the Scots and the Irish is stronger in Northern Ireland than in the rest of Ireland but the words Glen and Snow does not 'suggest' one over the other. What about the song "The Green Glens of Antrim"? Does this suggest that Antrim is in Scotland? Or Glendalough in County Wicklow or Glengarriff in County Cork to only name a few are not in Scotland.81.99.65.220 17:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I accept that there are in fact pipes, glens, mountains and seasonal snow in Ireland as in Scotland. But the point is that it was a song written by an Englishman in 1910, with words which to an English eye and ear are cliché Scotland. It only got its Irish connection later when set to an Irish tune in 1913, and in the next few years became popular across the world, including among Irish émigrés. So it isn't justified to call it an Irish song (or indeed a Scottish song), rather than simply a song set to an Irish tune. (copied from my talk page) --Henrygb 19:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the actual song/words were composed by an English composer who heard the tune at some point from a traditioanl muscician the likelihood is that the tune goes back in time further and probably had various lyrics set to it over time. Most of the ballads of Ireland, Scotland and England 9British Isles) originate much earlier than the “lyrics” we know today. However I do not understand your reference to the “English Ear and eye” are you referring to; people from England only or to people throughout the world that speak English?

If I were a betting man, I would put my money on the majority of people throughout the world English speaking and non-English speaking and including England itself, of course - that the majority of people would classify “Danny Boy” as an Irish song. Now I am not saying that this classification is technically right - but the reality is; that is how the song is perceived - where the tune and lyrics originated is superfluous to this thinking and perception. I beleive the lyrics reflect an Irish identity and that thsi was teh intention of the composer. My opinion is that the song became popular among the Irish mainly because of its sentimental lyrics but more because of the dramatic performances by leading entertainers of the day - for instance Count John McCormick, and every other Irish tenor that was so popular within the context of vaudeville and music hall entertainment - the improvement in technology allowed it to be recorded by practically every popular singer in the world and of course Irish singers in particular, but again due to its potential for drama through performance - singers like Lucian Pavarotti, John McCormick, or indeed even Judy Garland could wring every ounce of emotion and drama from every word to maximum potential , showing off their voice's musical range within the lyrics and music from thundering power with some lyrics to sweet angelic high notes that fade away, leaving themselves drained and their audiences spellbound and emotional but of course appreciative of the singer’s talent to be able to do that to them . All of this contributed over the last 100 years to the perception that it is an Irish song. I don’t understand why this reality appears to be offensive to some , its just the way things have evolved. The “ English ear” would be accustomed to the song “You’ll Never Walk Alone” being associated with Liverpool with many never realising that this song is from the Great American Song Book written originally for the musical Carousel - this reality does not diminish its value to Liverpool supporters nor those that are unaware of its origins i.e. it’s Liverpool’s song! Who cares? Another example is "Johnny I Hardly Knew ye” - this is an old Irish ballad from the 18th Century - the music probably goes back much further but the lyrics are 18th Century. It is an Irish Ballad referring to the 1798 rebellion - the song’s tune went on to be associated with the American South during the American Civil War as “When Johnny Comes Marching Home” - the ethos is the same the tune is the same but the lyrics are different. The song is widley known as American - thsi is untrue - but again does it really matter? Another song is Nora Lee - a very beautiful Irish ballad - that evolved into “Love Me Tender”

The song Danny Boy can be analysed and dissected by anyone with any agenda - and the song is so universal that most any interpretive spin could be put on it. By way of example , the lesser know second verse refers to “Ave” this to me is a clear indication that the song is referring to Catholics - Whilst many Highlanders and other Scots remained Catholic the vast majority were Presbyterian and this was the same situation in Northern Ireland where the Ulster Scots that were/are more extreme in their hatred of Catholicism would never use the word “Ave” as it was associated with Catholicism or “Papists” - the Irish were by the vast majority Catholic - Therefore my own personal conclusion is that the song based on this and my previous analysis of its performance potential that particularly in America where the Irish had flocked and where a new “sentimental” Irish culture grew is Irish. This Irish-American culture to a degree overshadowed the reality of Ireland and Irish culture that was far older but it was teh USA that had the power to it export it throughout the world - even back to Ireland but ultimately promoted (wrongly or rightly) the song as Irish. I do not believe that the song was as popular in Ireland (until recent times) as it had been in the USA from the early part of the 20th Century during the height of Irish immigration and among the first and second generation irish that were now successful in their new country but still tied through culture to the "Old Sod". Sorry for being so longwinded.81.99.65.220 11:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The words of the song Danny Boy are original in 1910 to Frederick Weatherly, who was English (hence the value of an English eye and ear - if he had originally meant it to be about Ireland, he would have been able to show it in words as he did with his "Roses Are Blooming In Picardy", though that was not a French song, just about France). Only three years latter were they put to the tune Londonderry Air and so had any association with Ireland. Weatherly did not meet any traditional musician; Jane Ross may or may not have done sixty years earlier but that has nothing to do with the lyrics. Putting The Red Flag to the tune of O Tannenbaum rather than The White Cockade did not turn it into a German song. The second paragraph starts "The song is widely considered an Irish anthem" and that is what you are arguing. So I find it difficult for understand what more is needed. --Henrygb 14:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I am not really arguing anything in that I beleive that we agree on most issues related to this song - but I do feel that the "irishness" of or intention of Irishness is what is being disputed and I don't really understand why. Are you saying that Weatherly had Scotland in mind when he wrote the lyrics because he was English and English people associate glen and snow only with Scotland? I beleive that Weatherly had Ireland in mind because of the the clear link to someone leaving and the Irish Diaspora was a high profile event during Weatherly's lifetime, I guess he could hav been referring to the Highland clearances too, however they were 100 years ealrly in the 18th Century not within his lifetime or as well publicised in Britain. The Irish laments and the romantic works of Thomas Moore in particular were well known by artists of the time and I beleive that Weatherly was influenced by this. But at the end of the day - who really knows what was going on in his mind? It still is a great song for any real singer! 81.99.65.220 18:28, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

All three paragraphs now talk about Ireland. Isn't that enough? --Henrygb 00:27, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

It is not a matter of Ireland being mentioned 3 times in the article being enough or not, its irrelevent, the discussion was initiated by an edit that presented or explained the edit with the the opinion that Weatherly's "English ear and English eye" had Scotland in mind when he wrote the lyrics to Danny Boy based on the words Geln and Snow. I beleive this opinion to be untrue based on the fact that it is documented that Weatherly and his family had an interest in Ireland and things Irish - his sister lived in America where she heard the tune from irish immigrants there and sent the tune to him and Weatherly himself was concerned with the religious and social differences in Ireland - particularly Northern Ireland - therefore in my opinion there is evidence that whilst written by an Englhman the words always were intended to reflect an Irish theme not a Scots one as the edit suggested and am happy to leave the discussion at that - there is no more to be said unless anyone has anything else to add to the debate81.99.65.220 11:07, 29 March 2007 (UTC)