Talk:Danish language

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Geographic distribution Official status - describe the status of Danish, include information on Dansk Sprognævn. Standard Danish Dialects Sound samples - Danish equivalent of Swedia 2000? Dialect map History Sounds Vowels Consonants Prosody - a thorough description of stød is essential Phonotactics Grammar - compare to other Scandinavian languages Syntax Vocabulary Writing system Should mention runes Should mention Fraktur and when it was abandoned Should mention when kj, skj, oe, aae were abandoned (Kjøbenhavn, skjøndt, foer, maae, all used in the 1870, but not in 1920) Last updated by Peter Isotalo 13:18, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

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Contents 1 praise 2 removed 3 Diff. Norwegian and Danish 4 Translation of 'rødgrød' 5 How can /a/ be palatal? 6 Just out of curiosity 7 Greenland having it's own dialect of Danish 8 Category:Danish language 9 'Open g' 10 Danish and Swedish are considered to be separate languages 11 Pharyngeal?? 12 Tourist phrases aren't encyclopedic 13 Mentioning of the Faroe Islands 14 Danish vowels 15 contest 16 Dialects 17 Spoken in: 18 Help with IPA codes 19 Jysk and English 20 Learning Danish 21 Devoiced stops

[edit] praise

"praise" do difficult to given by Danish.

What? arj 10:07, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] removed

Removed The toast skål has its origin in the English word 'skull' and was yelled out loud at Viking feasts when they drank from the skulls of their defeated enemies. This is not likely to be true. I believe it is more likely to come from the word for bowl. arj 10:07, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

Correct! The drinking-from-skulls tale began with a Latin mistranslation of a poetic kenning for drinking horns: the original Norse phrase was bjugviðum hausa "curved branches of skulls". Skål does mean "bowl" in all the continental Nordic languages, though. Its use as a toast probably comes from the medieval practice of having guests fill their cups from a common bowl; the host would remind people "help yourself from the bowl" before drinking in someone's honor. --ISNorden 00:44, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Diff. Norwegian and Danish

The article on Norwegian language say that the Norwegian Language Council regulates Norwegian language. The article on Danish says Danish isn't regulated. But we have Danish Language Council (http://(www.dsn.dk). What is the difference?--Wildt 17:21, 21 Jul fuck (UTC)

I don't know about Norwegian, but the Danish council in principle merely records the most common usage, and when asked advices others to follow the same usage.--Niels Ø 22:12, Dec 19, 2004 (UTC)

I don't know what's meant by "regulated" either, but Dansk Sprognævn does define the standards that are taught in school. They also publish guides about the standards considered "correct" by most -- notably "Retskrivningsordbogen", the dictionary of correct spelling. --Morten Sørensen 18:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Translation of 'rødgrød'

The former translation of 'rødgrød' was 'red pudding'. I changed this to the more accurate translation 'strawberry porridge'. --Peterih 15:52, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Isn't it actually made of a purée of summer berries such as strawberries, redcurrants, blackcurrants, raspberries and blackberries? So saying it's made purely of stawberries is inaccurate?

Anonymous User. Aug 19, 2004

I certainly never tried rødgrød made of strawberries. Calling it 'strawberry porridge' would be misleading. I can't find it on the page though.

Shawn Ogg, Aug 27, 2005

I've never tasted or heard of rødgrød made of anything but strawberries, strawberries are definetely the most common ingredient of rødgrød in Denmark. [[Magnuspharao 01:21, 30 August 2005 (UTC)]]

I think the requirement just is that it's a red porridge made of berries. My mother used to make it of raspberries. --Morten Sørensen 18:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

In "frøken Jensens kogebog"Rødgrød is made of sticks of rhubarb, red currant, black currant, strawberries and raspberries...

I'm danish, and frankly, I have never tasted rødgrød. (Irnic.. I have "frøken Jensen's kogebog, and my last name used to be Jensen) I have always been of the conviction that rødgrød is rhubarb porridge. The direct translation of rødgrød, however, is red porridge. (if it is, in fact, rhubarb porridge, then ive had it loads of times, and its actually quite good!) -- Shae LeFay

I think most Danes would differ between strawberry porridge and "rødgrød" - I know I would. To me, rødgrød uses any other red berries than strawberries. --dllu 16:58, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How can /a/ be palatal?

How can /a/ be palatal? It's a vowel. -Branddobbe 22:33, Aug 8, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Just out of curiosity

Just out of curiosity: How do you get a figure of 10 million speakers for Danish? By counting the Norwegians too? Io 13:02, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Linguistically speaking, "Bokmål" is a Danish dialect - in writing. --dllu 17:11, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Greenland having it's own dialect of Danish

I've seen vague references to Greenland having it's own dialect of Danish, but i've yet to find detailed information on this.Gringo300 12:44, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Greenland is pretty much a free-thinking country. Yes, it is owned by Denmark, but it has its own flag, own nationality.. and - dun dun dun - its own language!

Greenland does not have its own dialect of Danish, it might just sound a bit funny cause its not their native tongue! -- Shae LeFay

Exactly. "Greenland-Danish" isn't a dialect, it's Danish spoken with an accent. The same goes for "Faroese-Danish". --dllu 17:15, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Danish language

There is no category Danish language. Can this be changed ? Sarcelles 18:42, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 'Open g'

I have a teach yourself Danish book at home (published in 1973). Does the Danish language still use the 'open g' or voiced velar fricative [ɣ]?
For example in the pronunciation of the word vælge [vɛlɣə] 'select' (pronunciation from book). – AxSkov (T) 09:25, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm not Danish, but I'm pretty sure that velar fricatives aren't present anymore. At least it sounds intuitively un-Danish to me. I think the fricative realizations of "g" turned into [j] about the same time as in Swedish.

Peter ^Isotalo 19:07, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

The 1950s edition of the Danish book I learned from still refers to the open g-sound [ɣ]; I was surprised to hear younger speakers replacing it with [j], [w] or no sound at all (depending on the phonetic environment). Hearing my literature professor pronounce my name ['eŋəbɔɐɣ] definitely gave me an idea of his age.... --ISNorden 00:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

It's not used anymore (except for some really old speakers). It was replaced by j after front vowels and w after back vowels. --Twid 09:09, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

When did this occur in Swedish (30, 50 or 100 years ago)?
I've also found some other more modern books on Danish, that says [ɣ] has become a briefly pronounced [j]. – AxSkov (T) 12:37, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The brief j pronounciation is the most common, I think. In some dia- or sociolects, especially upper class north of Copenhagen, the old "soft g" is still used by some, though. This is perceived as an affectation by many others. --Morten Sørensen 18:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Danish and Swedish are considered to be separate languages

I've removed the comments of "Danish dialects in Sweden". Please read Swedish language#Classification and related languages for an explanation for why it's inappropriate to start dividing the three national Mainland Scandinavian languages into further minor languages.

Furthermore, Scanian is definetly not a seperate language, and calling it a Danish dialect is really misleading, since Scanian is not more similar to Danish than most Central Swedish dialects. While it might have originally been a Danish dialect, it has for the past 400 years been heavily influenced by what has evolved into Standard Swedish and grammar, vocabulary and phonology are virtually identical. The difference is basically not greater than between Southern American English or West Coast American English. Please read the article Scanian (linguistics) (moved from Scanian language and the discussion page for further explanations.

Peter ^Isotalo 18:57, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

I think this is absolutely correct. The only way to make Scanian a Danish dialect is to consider all three languages one and the same - not a completely crazy idea, but especially after the move towards standard national languages during last century or two (with a significant decline in the use of heavy dialects), a rather unorthodox idea. So, a couple of hundred years ago the identification of three separate scandinavian languages, and the classification of all dialects as belonging with 100% certainty to one and only one of the three, may have been a fiction inspired by nationalism. But today, it is real.--Niels Ø 08:59, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I reintroduced Skåne, Sweden as a place where danish is spoken. This doesn't have anything to do with Scanian, but is simply a consequence of the many danes moving to sweden after the opening of Øresundsbron. Danes in skåne now number above throusand. Maunus 16:06, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Scanian is of course a Swedish dialect, but i's definitely much closer to Danish than the Swedish spoken in Svealand or further north - and easier to understand for most Danes. And if you have ever heard the local dialect(s) of Bornholm, they are sometimes closer to Swedish than Danish. That's why there is a category called "East Danish" - it makes sense. --dllu 17:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pharyngeal??

I highly doubt that the Danish <r> is pharyngeal- the only IE languages with those are PIE itself, and Hittite. They never existed in Germanic, and they don't now. I would describe it as a uvular fricative, like the German or French <r>.

The /ʀ/ of the more prestigious variants of French and German are actually uvular trills, but like in other languages and dialects they are very often realized as the fricative [ʁ]. It all depends on the phonetic context. The comments about the Danish pharyngeal /ʁ/ seem fairly valid to me. The sound is described as "uvu-pharyngeal" by Danish phonetician Hans Basbøll. In general, pharyngealization seems to be a common aspect of Danish; more than half of the vowels are pharyngealized, for example.

Jaqcues Durand of the University of Toulouse has written a fairly comprehensive article on the vowel system of Danish that covers a lot of this and is well worth reading.

Peter ^Isotalo July 2, 2005 12:11 (UTC)

[edit] Tourist phrases aren't encyclopedic

Since Wikipedia is not a usage guide and since there is rather pointless to define exactly what a "Common phrase" is, I think we should skip the entire section. While certainly helpful to tourists, it gives little or no insight to either phonology or grammar of Danish, which is one of the objectives of this article.

The sound recordings are good, but to properly illustrate how Danish phonemes differ from one another and to describe their allophones, better examples are needed. To be really useful in this aspects the recordings need to be of minimal pairs. For example hunde and hynde or binde and pinde. The current phonology section needs a serious work-over, but I'm going to wait until I get a hold of Hans Basbøll's quite authoritive The Phonology of Danish, which should be a month at most, before taking on that section. I'm sure that it contains plenty of good examples of minimal pairs we can use to record sounds later on.

Peter ^Isotalo 7 July 2005 18:53 (UTC)

[edit] Mentioning of the Faroe Islands

The Faroe Islands have never been a Danish colony, and it's doubtful if Danish is official in the Faroe Islands, since it's neither mentioned in the Danish constitution nor in the Faroese Home Rule Act (though, it mentioned that Danish must be properly learnt, but this doesn't make it official)

In addition, the Faroe Islands have a very distinct way of pronuncing Danish, Gøtudanskt, which is Danish orthography pronunced phonetically (with a few exception): dag [da:g] etc.

If not a colony, what were the Faroe Islands before they became semi-autnonoums? The wording you mention about "must be properly learnt" sounds like a de-facto official status, which is not too uncommon.

-Peter ^Isotalo 10:53, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

In 1380 the Faroe Islands became a part of Denmark together with Norway. In 1948 they recived homerule. From about 2000 there has been negotiations about indepentance (without results)..

-Eva 15:20 29 August 2006

The Faroe Islands have never had colonial status, although in the 1700s they were treated pretty much as a colony. They were treated like a part of Denmark, being mostly a disadvantage to them because the government didn't want to acknowledge their special language and culture. So the answer is, before they became autonomous, they were a Danish county. They are still part of the Kingdom of Denmark. Autonomy is not mentioned in the Constitution but in a seperate law (devolution, similar to Scotland and Wales). Ever since 1948 about half of them wish to be fully independent, and half of them to remain under Danish rule. Nobody wants to return to being a mere Danish county, though.--Sasper 12:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Whether the Faroe Islands were officially a colony is a matter of discussion, but de facto they most certainly were, just like Greenland, Iceland etc. If this is an attempt at (misplaced) political correctness, I don't think any Faroese people will disagree that the Faroe Is. were in any meaningful sense of the word a colony.

As for Danish, it is a "necessary" language (so to speak) for the Faroese, because most of them come to Denmark to e.g. get a higher education. I for one have never met a single Faroese who didn't speak Danish fluently, in Denmark or elsewhere. In fact, because they speak what is called gøtudanskt, they often master Danish ortography better than many Danes. --dllu 17:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Danish vowels

The article claims that Danish has 12 vowels that also contrast in length for a total of 24 vowels, implying that all of Danish's twelve qualities have two quantities. It then presents a table of some sixteen vowels, including [ɶ], which (I'm lead to believe) does not occur as a phoneme in any language. I therefore come to the conclusion that the table is horribly wrong. Am I right? Could some who knows the topic fix it? (as well as the Danish phonology page, which is not a page on Danish phonology).

If it helps, the German and French Wikipedias, at least, seem to have something rather more useful available at de:Dänische Sprache, fr:Danois and fr:Prononciation du danois. I don't read German or French, though, so I can't much help any translation effort...

—Felix the Cassowary (ɑe hɪː jɐ) 13:59, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Some of the vowels in that table might be different in principle, but in practical use the difference is so small that most Danes would have trouble hearing the difference. I would say it is arguable if they really constitute distinctly different sounds. --dllu 17:40, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] contest

I am currently participating in a contest at Universal Studios Florida. One of the clues is in a foreign language which I BELIEVE may have Danish or Nordic roots. I thought that perhaps someone here might be able to assist me.

The clue is in an audio file, which you can hear by going to the Halloween Horror Nights website and doing the following. As it is an audio file, you will need a computer with sound.

1) Go to: http://themeparks.universalstudios.com/orlando/hhn/?__dest=hhn.OFFER_right_1 2) Click on the book in the upper right hand corner (Next to FAQ's) 3) Click on the skull in the bookcase 4) Click on the large skull at the upper right hand of map. It is here that you will hear the audio file.

Your assistance would be greatly appreciated. In the event that the audio file is not of Danish roots, do you have any idea of what language it may be in? I have already confirmed that it is not in Latin. 24.110.97.56 (talk • contribs)

The words were not a language at all, they were simply made up. The site is still fun to navigate! User:Steve In Florida

[edit] Dialects

Not much about the dialects,and the difference between jutland(west) speakers and the rest.. I think about the E or Æ or A before a word in this dialect.Like (dialect)æ hund=(norm danish)hunden=(english)the dog Anybody knows the reason for this divide?Platdeutsch(Platgerman) influence ?Jønne

[edit] Spoken in:

Further up on this page, user Maunus wrote: I reintroduced Skåne, Sweden as a place where danish is spoken. This doesn't have anything to do with Scanian, but is simply a consequence of the many danes moving to sweden after the opening of Øresundsbron. Danes in skåne now number above throusand.

I think it needs to be discussed exactly what is meant by "Spoken in" in the infobox (it might well have been discussed somewhere before, which I have not seen). Should Sweden be on the list because there are many Danish speakers there? In Norway, there are over 19000 Danish people, presumably mostly Danish speakers[1]. Should Norway be on the list as well? I am sure there are also thousands of Danish speakers in, for instance, the UK and the USA. And for that matter, smaller or larger groups scattered all over the world, as indeed is the case for most languages. The question is what is useful information, and what is not. In my opinion, "spoken in" in the infobox should list those places where Danish is an official language, or has spoken by a compact group of people in a certain area over a longer period of time (generations). Is this the case with Skåne?

Also, why is Iceland on the list? Danish is taught as a second language there, but is that enough to class Iceland as a country where Danish is spoken? --Barend 17:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I merely assumed ths was a list of places with considerable danish speaking communties. Since there s another category saying in which places danish is an official language. Maunus 17:18, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, the amount of Danish speakers on Iceland is neglectible. Iceland shouldn't be on the list. Argentina, USA and Canada could be added. Shouldn't there be a more neat list with numbers of speakers in each country?--Sasper 12:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

There is Danish people living in Iceland like there is Icelandic people living in Denmark, the same with Faroe Islands. But why is Norway on the list? --Arigato1 16:30, 10 February 2007 (UTC) Oh i didt know there live 19000 Danish speakers in Norway. --Arigato1 16:33, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, there are about 50,000 Danes living in London. ;o)

I think the paragraph as it is now pretty much gives the correct information. Iceland should of course be mentioned because of the historical ties - Danish still at least the same status in Icelandic schools as German has in Danish schools. --dllu 17:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Help with IPA codes

Can anyone knowledgeable in IPA codes help me fix the pronunciation in the article Daldøs, as mentioned here: Talk:Daldøs#Pronunciation, and afterwards remove the present post?

[edit] Jysk and English

Is it worth point out that the dialect (and vocabulary) of Jysk (in the western coastal areas of Jylland) is, in some cases, so similar to the English spoken by some inhabitants of parts of north-east England (traditional eastern Yorkshire and Northumberland dialects), that these speakers can still understand one another? – Agendum 13:18, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but it needs a proper citation. I suspect that it's uncommon now. Mikkel 17:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

No, it is not true. The Jutlander will of course understand the Yorkshireman, given that all Danes know at least basic English. The other way round understanding will be more scarce. A genuine Northern Englander (or Northern Englishman?) will know certain words of Danish or Norse origin, but way too little to understand a Jutish sentence. But the sounds and melody of the dialects may sound similar, especially to outsiders. And then the mentality and humour of Northern England may be similar to that of Jutland, helping communication along. I come from a fishing village in Northwestern Jutland and speak a genuine dialect myself. We have the W sound, a great deal of diphtongs (worm and hole is pronounced almost like in English, whereas in Standard Danish it is orm and hul). The words are also stripped of the final -e so common in Standard Danish, changing the melody to harsh one-syllabic words. These things, and the special Jutish grammar makes it very difficult to understand for eastern Danes. I guess the myth about English and Jutish fishermen communicating is something that was invented to make us even more exotic. Many people in Jutland like the myth, though, because it makes us feel more special. (As if we would need that - we know we are best!) --Sasper 12:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

It is true. It is not a myth - at least it wasn't about half a century ago.

The same actually applies further south. I'm from South Jutland, and I have a friend who is half Dutch. His grand parents are from Frisia, and I was able to talk to them using our separate local dialects.

Don't be so quick to discard stories as "myths". ;o) --dllu 17:55, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Learning Danish

Hello,

I'm fairly new to Wikipedia so I'm not sure if adding a section on "Learning Danish" would be appropriate. I am half Danish but only learned a few words as a child. When I was 20 I moved to Copenhagen and learned to speak fluently but, as many who have tried will know, this was no easy task. I feel like I could provide some useful information and recommendations on how to learn the language (e.g. where you can find the most intensive, government sponsored courses). If this is appropriate, please reply letting me know and I'd be happy to contribute.

Kristian —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kkibak (talk • contribs) 06:25, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Hi Kristian. Information on learning Danish could be relevant, but recommendations of courses would not. Important wikipedia principles to consider are WP:NPOV (give a neutral point of view, not a personal opinion) and WP:NOR (avoid original research; facts stated should be available from reliable citable sources). But WP:BB (be bold) - go ahead and do some editing; if it's inappropriate, someone will either fix it or remove it, and that's no big deal.--Niels Ø 07:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Devoiced stops

Article says that /b, d, g/ are all decoiced in all contexts. Is there evidence of these being underlyingly voiced, or should these be /p,t,k/? Seems that the the transcription of the word following the chart should be [lapə], as well, not [labə]. Would change it, but I'll leave it to someone with a lot more expertise in the subject. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.208.95.112 (talk) 17:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC).