Talk:Damour massacre

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User:Gramaic asked me to comment on this page. I know nothing about the specific incident, so I have little to say about the specific content, but I would suggest that this is the type of topic where references should certainly be given, and none are. -- Jmabel | Talk 17:40, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

Here's some of the references I looked at;

[1]

[2] .

BTW, according to those references, the Damour massacre is what later led to the Sabra and Shatila massacre. --Gramaic | Talk 18:49, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

• I have to say: I'm not particularly impressed by the only sources being one on GeneralAoun.org that ends with "God bless the souls of our martyrs" and an unsigned page on Geocities. I'm not saying any of this material is wrong, just that it's not very well cited, and you might do well to hunt down a press source, or a respected international agency, or some such, because inevitably this will be a controversial article and should probably have better citation. Anyway, I would suggest that if these are your references, you should add them to the article. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:03, July 24, 2005 (UTC)
  • I've justed added those two links to the article, but I will search for better sources. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 20:24, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

the massacre was carried by the saika which is controlled by damascus but not an islamist group. Also, I think that Saika is part of PLO but it's unclear if Arafat had any control on it--equitor 04:41, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

• • • LOL, shoot, well if ending with "God Bless of the souls of the martyrs" disqualifies documents from being sources, then I should never have made those changes to the bicycle article. Babajobu 20:53, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 source 2 "Incident" section 3 Cedarland.org 4 Sources of information 5 Church in Damour 6 Formatting 7 BBC link 8 forces who carried out the massacre 9 Contradiction? 10 War.of.lebanon documentary 11 Weak citation

[edit] source

as for the source, I think that that the priest in (father labaky) wrote a testimony book about the massacre --equitor 05:06, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

actually I am sure, but it's not for sale anymore--equitor 05:16, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Incident" section

Ian Pitchford, can you please tell why you keep deleting this section. What is stated in that section is a fact. You said in the summary "for which no references have been provided." I provided sources, and you deleted them. I would never add anything to an article if it did not have sources. Thanks, --Gramaic | Talk 20:38, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cedarland.org

I replaced the anonymous Geocities link with a link to this Lebanese Christian website. It's exactly the same material, but claimed by the organization rather than just left floating out in cyberspace. The Geocities page was from an earlier effort by the same people who later created Cedarland.org Babajobu 20:49, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sources of information

Here's a source I found as I searched through Amazon.com. To let everyone know ahead of time, the pictures shown on that site are quite graphic and disturbing. --Gramaic | Talk 08:12, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

An encyclopedia should be comprehensive, authoritative and cite relevant scholarly sources. Inaccurate web pages full of POV commentary don't qualify as "sources" in this context. How reliable can the pages be when they both have the date wrong? It will be a considerable boon to all interested in this event if we can find and list appropriate scholarly sources. --Ian Pitchford 15:00, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I have a hard time believing that multiple Lebanese Christian websites get the date wrong on a massacre of Lebanese Christians, and only Mr. Pitchford's "honorable white liberals" get it right. There's got to be more to this. However, I do agree that these should probably not be listed as sources...but they are definitely appropriate as external links. The aggrieved community's account of its own butchering is absolutely relevant. Babajobu 15:05, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Can you think of any reason why the date might be deliberately inaccurate? --Ian Pitchford 15:30, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I can, yes, but I can also imagine why sources favored by Robert of Arabia may have fudged the date, too. In general "when the swarthy colonials disagree, just ask Sahib Robert (or whoever is the nearest white male) what actually occured" is not a good strategy for getting at the truth. I'd like to see more sources before concluding that all the Lebanese Christians are lying because Sahib Robert said so. Babajobu 15:47, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Mordechai Nisan concurs and Fisk's account is eyewitness, not derived from "sources". --Ian Pitchford 16:23, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Eyewitness? Were the Palestinians pulling him there on a rickshaw so he could observe the silly little locals massacre one another, "good show, good show, sport"? How was he an eyewitness? Regardless, if it is true, and if it true that the family members of the massacred Lebanese are engaged in a cynical political disinformation campaign, I still think their account of their own communal butchering is notable as a link. Babajobu 16:33, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm sure we both want to assist readers by finding good sources and citing them - let's concentrate on that. --Ian Pitchford 16:34, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Okay. Babajobu 16:37, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I seem to remember there's something about a link between Damour and Sabra and Chatila in Friedman's 'From Beirut to Jerusalem', though he gets the date wrong too (Feb 1976). I'll check later. --Ian Pitchford 16:41, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

(<--- move back to margin) Mr. Pitchford, I the linked pictures very clearly indicate that bodies, including those of children, were mutilated. It would be hard to imagine more explicit "proof" that such things occured. So I've reverted to the previous version (but made a minor copyedit). However, I won't engage in a revert war. If you want to revert back, go head. But I don't think it's justified. Babajobu 13:11, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I added the links to the pictures. They don't show any decapitations, mutilations or dismemberments. These events could have occurred, but I haven't yet been able to find any reliable references to them. --Ian Pitchford 14:20, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I must have followed Gramaic's link, which included pictures of children with their limbs removed. Is that link not in the article? Actually, if we do put it in the article, it needs not to be a hypertext link, and has to include a warning. Babajobu 15:38, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm willing to stick with your version, but I still sense a "sahib Robert is right, other people are wrong or lying to the extent that they deviate from sahib Robert's account" mentality here. If there were a Palestinian account of the Sabra and Shatilla massacre, would you head the link that this was "an extremely partisan and contentious account" of the massacre. I think the link should just state that it is a Falangist account. Babajobu 15:54, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

The Phalangist account is inaccurate - just read the opening sentence. --Ian Pitchford 16:02, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

About the mutilating and maiming, if the link I provided above is not enough proof that such incidents took place during the massacre, I don't know what is! Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 19:38, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Mr. Pitchford, you've stated it so that "some sources claim" that people were mutilated. How is that you are not convinced by the pictures of mutilated bodies? To me this is equivalent to stating regarding the Sabra and Shatilla massacre that "some sources claim that people were killed." Do you think that would be appropriate? Babajobu 01:53, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

You can find father Labaky's testimony on a lot of websites (some versions are slightly different because people edit the text). After some research I was able to find its origin: The PLO by Jillian Becker. ISBN 0312593791 --equitor 05:15, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Church in Damour

I added a statement to the article, about the church being used as a repair garage and a target practice. But I also added "Other sources claim" at the beginning of the statement so we can remain NPOV. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 20:09, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Formatting

The text is "wrapped" around the small square Table of Context box in order to avoid ugly gaping holes of blank space. Try alternatives yourself and see the effect. "TOCleft" is preferably, unless there are reasons for setting it at the right. There is currently an editor going about making a mess of carefully formatted articles to satisfy some obscure personal agenda. --Wetman 21:52, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] BBC link

Do we need this link in the "External links" section? It talks about Lebanon, but there's no mention of even the word Damour itself. --Gramaic | Talk 00:08, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] forces who carried out the massacre

The intro refers to

the combined forces of the Lebanese National Movement, which consisted of Palestinians from the Fatah, Habash and Hawatmeh movements

This isn't what the LNM consisted of at all, although the Palestinian groups mentioned were allied to the LNM all right. This needs to be fixed.

Also, the peculiar reference to the "Habash and Hawatmeh movements" should be changed to "the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine" if these groups were indeed involved. Palmiro | Talk 12:39, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

We've all been struggling with the paucity of sources here. If you have something useful you should go ahead and add it. --Ian Pitchford 18:12, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I didn't realize that "Habash" here actually referred to George Habash, founder and leader of the PFLP. Makes sense, I'll change the reference. Babajobu 19:01, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Introduction makes more sense. That's a good change. --Gramaic | Talk 00:35, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction?

The claim that none of the 349 remaining villagers survived seems to contrast with the broader range of possible victims given in the introduction. I wouldn't know which one is correct, but I guess the wiser thing to do would be to remove the "349" from that sentence, if it is known that there were no prisoners taken. Arre 04:27, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] War.of.lebanon documentary

In the documentary made by Al-jazeera TV channel, communist leader George Hawi said that the damour invasion was a syrian response to what was happening in the east beirut camps, especially the LF attacks on Tal-al-Zaatar. He also mentioned that syrians had US backing on this issue at that time. Thats why "al-Saiqa" forces where present, they were under strict command of Hafez al-Assad. Similar quotes were also made by Phalange member Karim Pakradouni in that documentary. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by H-CTR (talk • contribs) 25 Feb 2006.

[edit] Weak citation

The citation for 1000 dead at Karantina is from 111101.net, basically a literary webzine based in Beirut. They do not provide a citation for their number. I'm not saying the number is wrong; I am saying that it could use a better citation. - Jmabel | Talk 04:07, 19 September 2006 (UTC)