Talk:Dalmatian language

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[edit] Place names style

I had edited the intro to the original text to reflect the current place names (Rab, Krk, Zadar, Dubrovnik, Kotor). User Bogdangiusca reverted back to Italian-names only appearing in the English text.

This I feel unjustified. In international usage current official place names should be used, while names as they appear in other languages can be added as an alternative, in parenthesis etc. There is no politics in this - just plain fact. So I feel that at least an alteration (eg. Krk/Veglia or Veglia/Krk, I wouldn't split hairs) is the only justified style and suggest the text be reverted. Hrundi 07:31, 13 December 2005 (UTC)



The Croatian/Serbian language is sometimes referred to as "Dalmatian" in modern usage, however this is a mingling of terminology, and the two languages are not closely related. --203.109.254.40

I've no idea where this comes from, I've never heard anyone say anything like that. Does such self-admitted vagueness really belong to encyclopedia? --Shallot 01:49, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I've heard the Croatian language referred to as "Dalmatian" far more often than as "Croatian". This is from the mouths of Dalmatians no less. The word Croatian was swapped for "Serbian" in that paragraph by a user others claim has a Serbian nationalistic agenda. Crusadeonilliteracy 13:22, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Well, um, my mother is Dalmatian, and at that from the Pelješac peninsula that was part of the Dubrovnik Republic, and I've never heard of any such term. Their language, while in many ways different from the standard Croatian especially in the vocabulary which is full of terms of Italian/Latin origin, is still far more Slavic than Romance. --Shallot 22:57, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It is interesting to note that Dalmation kept the Latin words connected to the urban life which were lost in Romanian.

I don't understand this sentence - can anyone explain, please? --denny vrandečić 13:49, Feb 6, 2004 (UTC)

Almost all words about the urban life organization in Romanian were lost, as it seems that the Romanians lived in isolated small mountain settlements in the Middle Ages (the cities could not be mentained in the Balkans of the Migration Age). It seems that Dalmatians kept an active city life.Bogdan | Talk 14:12, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Thanks --denny vrandečić 16:41, Feb 6, 2004 (UTC)
I've added Bogdan's explanation to the article. BTW, it's a good one - very interesting. -- ChrisO 17:20, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)
It makes sense according to Dalmatian history -- the region was more or less defined by the Italic city states during those times and Ragusa was one of the important ones. --Shallot 22:57, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I feel that this page will soon turn to have the Lord's Prayer in all Romance languages.

Italian and Istro-Romanian are OK, since they are nearby Romance languages, but what do Romanian and Portugues have to do with Dalmatian ? Bogdan | Talk 20:44, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I understand why the Portuguese is there. It is to reinforce the statement (which I can't neither endorse neither deny) "Dalmatian was actually more closely related to Western Romance languages than to Italian". --Alessandro Riolo 10:40, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I feel the same. Especially about the Portugues, that really surprised me. Even Croatian would be somewhat closer (not because of the linguistic relationship but due to dalmatian history)...
Isn't there already a Lord's Prayer in I don't know how many languages page on the Wikipedia? --denny vrandečić 23:02, Mar 5, 2004 (UTC)

Having read just the Pater Noster, Dalmatian seemed me pretty a bridge between the Venetian (the language spoken for centuries in the parts of the Adriatic sea under Venetian rule) and the Romanian. --Alessandro Riolo 10:40, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Currently, the page is self-contradictory. It both had and not had Thracian substratum:

  1. no Thracian substratum - was added by me, but I forgot where I read that :)
  2. has Thracian substratum - was added again by me, but from the French wiki.

If anybody knows more about this subject, please reply. Bogdan | Talk 19:56, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

BTW, can anybody trace the Dalmation word "menur" (="to lead") in Latin or is it a substrate word? Bogdan | Talk 20:04, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Menur is 100% from Latin. It's found in Romanian as manare (and mana, 'to lead' ), Italian as menare ('to lead'), in French as mener ('to lead'), and Occitan as menar ('to lead'), to name a few. Dictionaries give the etymology as "from Late Latin minare (unattested; 'to drive, lead'), from Latin minari (to threaten)". See Latin minax, mineo, minatio, et cetera. The English word menace comes from these Latin words by way of Old French. Alexander 007 00:35, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bartoli on the net

Question: is Bartoli's work available on the net, or sections of it. Alexander 007 07:53, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No, it is not, although the German version is in public domain. Bogdan | Talk 10:06, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If somebody has the time and the references, somebody should put a link to a partial Dalmatian glossary or write one up if there isn't one. Alexander 007 07:55, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Dalmatian influence on Croatian, etc.

What's the scoop on this. Are there old Dalmatian words in Croatian, or other linguistic influences on neighboring or nearby Slavs. Alexander 007 07:58, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I just noticed this sentence: Some of its (Dalmatian language) words have entered as borrowings in South Slavic languages and Albanian. They probably did (yes, I'm not being sarcastic, just skeptical), I'm just wondering if anybody can supply examples of such words, as I'd like to see them. Alexander 007 01:43, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Just checking

Not that I'm questioning the idea, but I'm trying to find out how much certainty there is behind the statement that the romance Dalmatians were Roman colonists, and not a Romanized population. Even a lack of known substratum words may not be conclusive. Alexander 007 02:57, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

My (single, for the moment) source, Pavle Ivic, points out historical records. Would you like me to check and see if he cites any? --VKokielov 04:31, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
That would be cool. I'm skeptical of things often stated in Wikipedia, and my skepticism doesn't imply that I believe a given statement to be true or false. Until verified, I consider such statements somewhere in-between. Alexander 007 19:24, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Croatian"-->....

I changed the term under "influences," because, if we're consistent, it turns out that there couldn't have been a Croatian language when there was no Croatian people. To put it a little more pragmatically, it doesn't look very good to talk about Croatian here. Plus to be specific never hurts...

Yes, of course this has to do with the language argument in Yugoslavia. But if we start infecting history with that argument, goodness - when do we stop? --VKokielov 04:30, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, while there's argument with regard to whether there were Croatian people in Ragusa, there can be little doubt as to their existence in Zara and Veglia - at least I've yet to see a single reference of non-Croat Slavs in those areas. I agree that a claim that all those dialects are to be called "Croatian language" is stretched, but to state that "there was no Croatian people" is quite incorrect as a rationale. --Joy [shallot] 09:49, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
You're all in a position to influence me. Especially since all this literature is old. Whenever you don't sound out of your mind - which in tvoje case is never - I listen to you. I checked again. There was a nationality to identify with, but not in any modern sense...is what I wanted to say. Anyway, what bothered me was that Croatian, Serbian, and, um, their smaller cousins were all created (like Serbo-Croatian) and appropriated relatively recently. Before that -- this is my impression from my sources -- no one really knew what to call the language spoken all over the territory because the Mean Big Europeans and the Nasty Turks wouldn't let most of ex-Yugoslavia develop and keep an identity. Which was the rule in feudalistic society anyway, so it isn't surprising... --VKokielov 16:28, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

I must disagree about Croatia being created recently. Yugoslavia was a recent creation, post WWI, but Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, etc... all had a sense of nationaltiy long before.

Basic historical data:

around 400BC the first Greek colonies are founded on Adriatic islands

around 100BC Romans rule over the east coast of Adriatic

305. Roman emperor Diocletian in present-day Split

around 600. Croats start moving to what is today Croatia

852. Duke Trpimir issues the Charter in which for the first time is mentioned the name Croatia, in domestic official documents

925. Tomislav, the first Croatian king is mentioned, unifier of Pannonian and Dalmatian Croatia

1102. After the death of Petar Svacic, the last Croatian king, Croatia enters into a union with Hungary

1242. King Bela IV issues the Golden Bull in which he proclaims Zagreb a Free Royal City

1433. The beginning of defense against the Turks, who through time occupy the larger part of Croatian territory

1527. By a decision of the Croatian Assembly, the dynasty of Habsburg comes to the Croatian throne

1699. Croatia is largely liberated of Turkish rule; continental Croatia remains under the rule of Habsburg, and the largest part of the Adriatic coast and islands are under Venice; only Dubrovnik Republic remains completely independent

1815. After the short-term rule of the French under Napoleon, who abolished Venice and Dubrovnik Republic, almost the whole of present-day Croatia enters into the Habsburg Monarchy

1847. Croatian becomes the official language of Croatia in Croatian Parliament (Sabor), replacing the Latin language

1848. Ban (Viceroy) Josip Jelacic defends Croatia against attempts of Hungarian occupation and unites all Croatian provinces

1866. Bishop Josip Juraj Strossmayer founds the Croatian Academy of Arts and Sciences, the first in southeastern Europe

1918. After the downfall of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy in World War I, Croatia becomes part of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, later proclaimed Yugoslavia

1941. German and Italian forces occupy Yugoslavia; the organized partisan resistance starts, led by Croatian antifascists under the guidance of Josip Broz Tito

1945. The Federative Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia is proclaimed and within Yugoslavia, today's Croatia is a federative republic

The rest can be found on http://www.hr or more specifically http://www.hr/hrvatska/history.en.html

[edit] Dalmatian closer to western romance?

I deletted that statement because it's not true, Dalmatian never shared the palatalization of the group /-kt-/ as in western romance, but turned it into /-pt-/as in Romanian v.g.: L. octo > Sp. ocho, Fr. huit, Port. oito, but Rom. opt, Dalmatian guapto, the plural of nouns according to the Pater Noster version showed here was vocalic, as in Italian and Romanian, and not adding -s or -es as in western romance languages proper.

[edit] Korzulot

I have removed a paragraph describing "Korzulot", which User:195.194.240.65 claims is a Dalmatian language which has survived into the present day. A cursory check proves this to be untrue and the dialect to be nonexistant. Dewrad 08:03, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why did you do this?!!

Korzulot (as a Dialect) does exist you moron. How dare you question its existance. The problem with people like you is that,.. being a Croat Nationalist, you can not imagine your beautiful little country speaking any other language than Croatian. I mean HOW FUCKING DOGMA does one have to get, to deny something as basic as this. What did you do,.. check the word out in google and see whether it turns up?!!

I am a Dalmatian of Italian Extraction, (and a Croatian Citizen). My grandmother was from Korcula(Old City) and spoke Korzulot quite well (might I add). Being so close to both Dubrovnik and Zadar, Korzulot is actually mentioned in the old archives of Dubrv.(found in Sponza Palace).

Don't tell me words like; "Shkoj", "Lenga" and "Zmuo" don't exist. Come on, plz,... I know you awsomely love your country and all that crap,.. but plz don't falsify History.

Just, wow. Wow. Let's have a look at this. First, I'm not a Croat: a cursory glance at my user page would in fact reveal that I'm Welsh. I've never been to Croatia and have no emotional involvement with the country- it's not my "beautiful little country", nor do I "awesomely love" it. That I might be a Croat Nationalist is, frankly, laughable.
What I am, however, is a linguist. And, more, a linguist who has studied the Dalmatian language. In all the literature I've ever read, I have never encountered a "Korzulot" dialect of the language. Vegliot, yes. Ragusan, yes. Korzulot, never. In all the literature on Romance linguistics I've ever read (and, believe me, that's a lot), I have never encountered any mention of a "Korzulot" dialect of the Romance Dalmatian language, let alone any claims that the language has survived into the present day.
Considering that a whole language community does not simply avoid detection or study in Europe of all places, a continent where virtually every extant language has a body of literature devoted to it, considering that you haven't actually provided any academic citations for this newly discovered Romance dialect, and considering that a google search on the terms "Korzulot", "Korčula jezik", "Corzulan" gives nothing except Wikipedia and its mirrors, I can only conclude one of two things:
    • You've mistaken a Slavonic dialect for a Romance one.
    • You're lying.
As we are enjoined to assume good faith, I will assume that it's the former. However, either way, "Korzulot" has no place in this article until proof is provided in the form of academic sources. As such, I've reverted it to the last substantiated version. Dewrad 21:03, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Majority of Dalmatia is in the Republic of Croatia. With a point sticking in Montenegro. This means, any literature you're talkin about is found in none other then Croatia. To be specivic the old archives of 3 oldest cities; Dubrovnik, Split and Zadar. To tell me that you haven't seen this word mentioned anywere else, is your problem not mine. Cakavian generally is problematic when it comes to sortation.

Right now,.. You caught me, out of time to moderate anything,.. but bear in mind that this is not over. I agree that the Internet is full of garbage and that Wikipedia is rather shallow, and very speculative (at some places), but Korzulot is real.

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