Talk:Dalian

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[edit] Cleanup request - Off By Forty Miles

I'm placing this clean here as this matter needs attention by someone with appropriate geographical references.

Lushun (Port Arthur) is about 40 miles from Dalian, The first paragraph is thus in error. The opening sentence should probably read that Lushun is administered as a district or sub-port of Dalian, which I believe I've seen somewhere in text, but the whole statement seems to be an akward way of interposing the free port (City) status onto the geography. Moreover, iirc, Dalian may be unique in the world in that both sides of the peninsula have useful deepwater harbors and are used that way. Any article covering the city should cover this fact. (See the landsat photo herein), albeit 80 plus nautical miles apart by boat or ship, but only a brief flight to Jonathan Livingston Seagull. In any event, this needs untangled by someone with better geographical references than I have, being concerned with the Russo-Japanese war. Sorry. Fabartus 22:59, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Golden Pebble Beach

This national resort area should have its own discussion.

I do not know enough to write the article but I do know that this area is protected from certain kinds of development, has a world-class 36 hole golf course, every August hosts some kind of festival or something similar, now has a really nice road leading there and is the terminus of the Dalian commuter railway. There are several luxury housing and hotel projects currently under construction. This area has some unique rock structures along the water's edge and has many areas where fossils are being dug up.

I am sure that there are many other important and fascinating facts and details that could be added by someone who is more familiar with it than I and I encourage someone to write an article and post some pictures. I do have a couple of suitable pictures that I can add if the article is written.

Thanks,

California Tiger

Hey, Are you really a tiger or just a couger trying to pass as one? --Manchurian Tiger 01:49, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Hey Manchurian Tiger - How have you been? My wife told me that you posted here. You inspired my name. Any guesses as to who I am? Say hello to your wife and son for me. p.s. Take a look at Dalian on Google Earth. It is really cool. Maybe we could post a picture here. It is much better than the satellite photo posted here. - California Tiger 03:31, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

hi buddy. I sure knew who you are right away when you first showed up here. I did some work on this article and contributed some pictures including that Lushun Train Station picture I took this spring. Have fun.--Manchurian Tiger 02:14, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of Name

Does anyone know why the name "Port Arthur" was originally given to the city/district? ~ Dpr 04:02, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Port Arthur was named after a British navy captain. He sailed his ship to the port after it was damaged during a conflict later 1800s. I don't quite remember the details but if I found more I'll post here.--Manchurian Tiger 02:39, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Thank you...though why did the Russians adopt such a name? --Dpr 22:36, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

what does Dalny mean in Russian? Hanfresco 03:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Transportation

Section seems kinda vague. E.g. the full list of international/domestic destinations by plane is available here, is it usual practise to include this information? http://www.dlairport.com/English/CityConnections.htm

More importantly, the 客轮 (translate as "ferry" rather than "oceanliner"? It doesn't travel on the open ocean; but the amenities on board are more like a cruise ship than a commuter ferry) probably deserves some more mention, seeing as it is a more unusual form of travel (especially international travel). Right now the cities served include Yantai, Tianjin, and Incheon (S. Korea). The Incheon ferry runs 3x/week, with the whole trip taking about 16 hours. Since it's about 60% less than a plane ticket, a lot of students from Korea coming for holiday/studying take the ferry instead of a plane. http://www.daking.com.cn/Article_Print.asp?ArticleID=3336

cab 21:21, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Climate

It would be nice if there was a reference to the climate during the different seasons (in geography). I might be living there next year, and it would have been a usefull addition. ABart26 17:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Massive deletions

Could anybody explain why the following passage was deleted from the article:

"Part of the State of Yan in the Spring and Autumn Period, a minor fishing village Ch'ing-ni-wa became a small town in the 1880s, when the Qing Empire established bridges, cannon platforms and camps there. The settlement was occupied by the British in 1858, returned to the Chinese in the 1880s, and then occupied by Japan in 1895 during the first Sino-Japanese War.

In 1898, the Russians took the lease of the peninsular and established Port Arthur (Lüshunkou) as ice-free headquarters of their Pacific Fleet and Dalnyi as a major commercial port. The city's name is derived from the Russian word "dalnyi", which means "distant (port)". Recently, some Chinese scholars pointed out that the Chinese form of the name, Dalian, had been used as early as October 1879, in a document by Li Hongzhang.

Both Dalny (Qingniwaqiao 青泥洼桥 of Zhongshan District, Dalian) and Port Arthur were developed and heavily fortified by the Russians in the period prior to 1904. Consequently, some historians blame the fall of Port Arthur, a world shaking event of epic proportions, during the siege of Port Arthur on January 2nd, 1905 for the failure by Admiral Eugene Alexeieff, to concentrate on the naval base and its fortifications, instead spliting precious resources shipped 5,000 miles across the single tracked Trans-Siberian Railway and Manchurian railways.

After the Russo-Japanese war Port Arthur was conceded to Japan (Treaty of Portsmouth), who set up the Kwantung Leased Territory or Guandongzhou. Since the foundation of Manchukuo in 1932, the sovereignty of the territory moved from China to Manchukuo. Japan still leased it from Manchukuo. In 1937, the modern Dalian City was enlarged and modernized by the Japanese as two cities: the northern Dairen (Dalian) and the southern Ryojun (Lushun)." --Ghirla ^-трёп- 11:13, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I had a quick glance at this and I see no problems with it. Give your detractors some time to respond, and then you can include. As for Dalian vs. Dalny, I know that the Gulf of Dalian got its name before 1898 and I have seen Chinese records referring to Dalian wan 大連灣. I don't think we need to prove who was first, it suffices to state that both names were in use at the time of tjhe foundation of the city.--Niohe 16:05, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the current version is better. The above to too long and too many unnecessary info, in consideration of other sections of the article. Zhang Qiang 19:57, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Massive deletions reverted. `'mikka (t) 04:37, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dalny

I added the Russian name in the heading, follwing the practice in Harbin. --Niohe 18:53, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Dalian is just too far away for you to add Russian name. What's wrong with you? Snle 17:16, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't get what you mean with "too far away". --Niohe 18:39, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

This is an English Wikipedia. There is no need for Russian language. There are a lot of languages in the world. Why do you want to put Russian name here. Is it because Dalian was invaded by Russians before or sth? Snle 19:23, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this is English Wikipedia, thanks for reminding me. But why don't we do away with all kinds of variant Chinese renderings and content ourselves with just one?

Well, the particular rationale here would be that the Russians founded Dalian as a modern city and named it accordingly. That is part of that city's history just as much as any other city in the world. As you are no doubt aware of, there are precedents for giving multiple names for cities on Wikipedia, such as İzmir and Gdańsk. --Niohe 19:28, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Dalian existed well before the Russians came. Snle 19:32, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, they built the city, but I guess that is not important to you. Anyway, that was not my only argument. Shall we go and change the articles on İzmir and Gdańsk, following your suggestions?--Niohe 19:36, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Go ahead. Change them. But Dalian is different from them. It was only temporily occupied by invaders. So only English and Chinese names are needed here. Snle 19:41, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand you here. Are you seriously suggesting that we change those articles? Or can I reinsert Mukden into Shenyang?--Niohe 19:47, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, I have reinserted Dalny and added Dairen to the heading of this article. Hope it stays this way. The Russians and Soviets continued using the name Dalny long after the city fell into Japanese hands, and the name Dairen was the most commonly used name in English for a long time. I think it has an encyclopedic value to include both. If someone disagrees, please come back to the discussion.--Niohe 00:49, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Considering Dalian's history with heavy influence by Russia and Japan, it makes sense to list the Russian and Japanese names.--Manchurian Tiger 00:59, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

The Russians and Japanese they build the railways in their own interest, not in the interest of the Chinese. Versions in other languages is only one click away, on the left of the article. It is ridiculous to have Russian and Japanese language here.Zhang Qiang 19:38, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Stop these deletions of verifiable content, this is clearly a WP:POINT edit. Whether the Russians and Japanese built railways in their own interest is immaterial.--Niohe 19:45, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

This is not point of view thing. Dalian was also heavily influenced by the Mongols and Koreans. How many languages do you need to put here. This is an English encyclopedia. Stop adding other languages. Zhang Qiang 19:48, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about? If you're a serious contributor to Wiki not just wanna pick a fight here, let me teach you something about history: In Dalian's history, the Russians and Japanese both established legitimate governments and ruled the city for a considerable time with the offial names in their languages widely recognized. Whereas neither Mongols nor Koreans did, and Dalian never had offial names in Mongolian or Korean except translations. The infrastructure of modern Dalian were built first by the Russians then the Japanese, the last, the Chinese. That why I said listing the Russian and Japanese names makes sense here because in many historic publications Dalian is under these names.--Manchurian Tiger 02:13, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Dalian was under Mongol and Korean control during the Yuan dynasty and Goguryeo. The Russian name "Dalny" doesn't even exist in English. If you look it up in the Merriam-Webster dictionary. You even can't find this word [1]. As for the Japanese word, it is totally inappropriate for you to put it here in consideration of Japanese invasion of Northeast China during World War II. Zhang Qiang 14:48, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

During the Yuan dynasty and Goguryeo, there was no Dalian at all. Talking about Dalian by Yuan and Goguryeo times is like talking about computer in 1600s. It totally makes no sense at all. Regarding Japanese invasion, what does it have anything to do with a city's name which was adopted about 50 years before? Wiki is not a political forum, if you wanna sell you nationalist mania crap, go some where else to dump your *****.--Manchurian Tiger 15:01, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Lao Zhang, if you ever bothered to look at sources from the early twentieth century, you would find both Dalny and Dairen in use. Just take a look at this map , for instance.

As to whether a name should be included into Wikipedia or not, the extent to which that name is considered "offensive" by some people or not is immaterial. Please look at to the article on Xinjiang for reference.--Niohe 16:30, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how Xinjiang is relevant here. As you know, Xinjiang is an autonomous regions. The languages used in are local languages. There is nothing wrong with that. Anyway, the words you want add are nonstandard outdated words. It is better keep them in the history section. Zhang Qiang 17:00, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Zhang Qiang, if you don't stop disrupting wikipedia by deleting information, and putting misleading edit summaries, you will be blocked from editing. `'mikka (t) 18:00, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

First, Zhang Qiang, you did not respond to the evidence I presented.

Second, Xinjiang is relevant because the very name Xinjiang "is considered offensive by many advocates of independence, who prefer to use historical or ethnic names", as the article points out. Are we to exclude that name on those grounds? Of course not. Similarly, you should refrain from editing verifiable content that you find offensive.--Niohe 20:00, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

As you said yourself. The words you want to add were used in the early twentieth century. They are definitely outdated. As for Xinjiang is offensive to independence advocates doesn't help here at all. At least it is not offensive for the local people and governoment. On the other hands the non-standard, outdated words you want to add are offensive to local Dalian people and the governoment. Zhang Qiang 20:19, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

May I ask for a source supporting those very bold statements? And could you explain to me why the taking of offence of one group should be taken more seriously than other groups? When I visited Xinjiang I found a lot of people that were offended by the word Xinjiang. I hope you can take my word for it, but I still don't think it's a good idea changing the article on Xinjiang because of that. If you feel uncomfortable with the verifiable contents that other editor post at Wikipedia, I suggest that you refrain for using this resource.--Niohe 20:25, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, Xinjiang is the official name, like Dalian. At least nobody will find it offensive, if those nonstandard words are moved to the history sections. Zhang Qiang 20:30, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Dalian is a Chinese city, not a Japanese or Russian one. It is totally inappropriate to put Japanese and Russian names here. Snle 17:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia:Naming conventions. Istanbul is a Turkish city, yet we have the Greek name up there for historical reasons. —Khoi khoi 20:30, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no such policy for Chinese cities. [2] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 918 (talk • contribs) .

Where's the rule that says we can't have historical names at the top? —Khoi khoi 20:57, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no such rule that says it is a must to put nonstandard, outdated names on the heading either. Since there are people offended by your addition, it is better not to list them on the top of the article. People only need to know these words, when it comes to history. So some indication in the history section will do it. 918 21:23, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. We shouldn't hide these names in the history section, remember what I said about serving the reader? By having them at the top the reader can see the names right away from easier reference. As I said before, compare to Lviv and Istanbul... —Khoi khoi 21:25, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

(To Snle/Zhang Qiang/918) If not being offensive is so important to you, User:Snle, why did you choose the date of the Japanese invasion of Manchuria as your new username?--Niohe 21:27, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

It is a number not a date. 918 21:30, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

So I must have misunderstood this completely then.--Niohe 21:48, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

You see. Taiwan was liberated by the Japanese from the Machu Qing's enslavement. And Taiwanese are quite grateful for that. If your reasoning holds water, then every city in Taiwan should have a Japanese name on the top of its article then. Zhang Qiang 15:27, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I will add that today Dalian has a strong russian influence (we can see some adds in the city in russian beside japanese and chinese of course), there is a russian little town in Dalian, and there are a lot of russians tourists in Dalian. I think that the name in russian should be kept :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Anselme (talk • contribs).

[edit] Historical names

Snle, it's important to have historical names for cities at the top, not just the current ones. The question is really what serves the reader, and by erasing these names I don't think we're helping them at all. You will find similar policies in other areas which have been governed or populated by many different language groups over time. For example:

Sibiu (IPA [si'biw], German: Hermannstadt, Hungarian: Nagyszeben) -- in Romania
Lviv (Ukrainian: Львів, L’viv [ljviw], German: Lemberg; Polish: Lwów; Russian: Львов, Lvov; see also other names) -- in Ukraine

I think it is a good thing to represent all the history of a place, not just its recent history. —Khoi khoi 17:51, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more with the above. I find it very useful to have historical names at the top of the page.--Niohe 19:57, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History of Dalian

The following is the history information about Dalian I find at Dalian's official website. [3]. As you can see Dalian was not founded by the Russians or Japanese.

"As early as 6000 years ago, our ancestors first exploited Dalian region. In Qin and Han period (221B.C.-220A.D.), Dalian region was under the jurisdiction of Liaodong county. In the early period of Tang Dynasty (618-907), Dalian region was under the jurisdiction of Andong Prefecture in Jili state, and in Liao Dynasty (916-1125), it was under the jurisdiction of Dong Jing Tong Liaoyang county. Dalian was named Sanshan in the period of Weijin (220-420), San Shanpu in Tang Dynasty (618-907), Sanshan Seaport in Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) and Qing Niwakou in Qing Dynasty (1644-1911). In the 1880’s, Qing government constructed loading bridges and fortifications with built-in cannons, and set up mine camps in the northern coast of Dalian gulf, making it become a small town. After the invasion and occupation of Russia, the city was called Qing Niwa and was renamed Dalian in 1899.During the 1st and 2nd Opium War, Dalian was invaded and harassed by the British army. As the main battlefield of the Sino-Japanese War of 1894-1895 and Japanese-Russian War, Dalian suffered great calamity in these two wars in modern history. Consequently, Dalian became Russian and Japanese colony for nearly half a century, meanwhile under the Japanese colonial rule for 40 years. The unconditional surrender of Japan on August of 1945 marks the liberation of Dalian in the anti-fascist war, thus ends 40 years’ colonial rule over the city. On September of the same year, the Preparatory Committee of Dalian Workers' Union was founded. On October, the northeast bureau of the Communist Party of China appointed Mr. Hanguan secretary of the CPC Dalian Committee, and the CPC Dalian Committee and Dalian municipal government were founded. On July of 1946, the CPC Dalian Committee was reorganized into the CPC Lüda committee. From 1949 to 1956, the socialist transformation was almost finished. From 1957 to 1966, the all-around socialist construction started. From 1966 to 1976, Dalian experienced the Cultural Revolution. After 1976, Dalian entered the new period of socialist modernization construction. In 1984, Dalian was approved by the State Council to be the coastal open-up city and was designated as the city with separate economic plan in 1985, enjoying provincial level decision-making authority." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 918 (talk • contribs) 20:20, 1 October 2006.

What's your point? Do you think the criteria for having historic names at the top means they have to be founded by a certain ethnic group? —Khoi khoi 20:22, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

That's the ridiculous logic Niohe uses.918 20:27, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

What did he say? —Khoi khoi 20:29, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

You can see the above disscussion. Anyway, Dalian is a Chinese city not Russian or Japanese one. There shouldn't Russian or Japanese names on the heading of this article. 918

No, Zhang Qiang/Snle, that is not my logic. But if the Russians built Dalian as a modern city, it might be relevant to mention the name they gave the city.--Niohe 20:36, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

(to 918) It is common practice at Wikipedia to have historical names at the top. Did you see the example I gave about Lviv? It's a Ukranian city, yet we have the German, Polish, and Russian names up there. To erase these names would be something called 沙文主义. —Khoi khoi 20:37, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

BTW, why don't we use the authoritative Encyclopædia Britannica as an example?

Lü-ta: also called (locally) Ta-lien, Pinyin Lüda, or Dalian, Russian Dalny, conventional and Japanese Dairen, city and port on the Liaotung Peninsula, Liaoning sheng (province), China. The name derives from a combination of Lü-shun and Ta-lien.

I don't see Britannica erasing historical names from city articles because they are Chinese cities today. —Khoi khoi 22:32, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

918:

It is normal practice to provide the names of cities and regions in a variety of languages, including the languages of surrounding countries, the languages of former empires and powers, the languages of ethnicities that inhabit or have inhabited the region, etc. This is because we want to prevent the sort of confusion that readers may experience when dealing with alternate names, especially in historical contexts. It has nothing to do with politics. -- ran (talk) 23:32, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm really tired of wasting our time to deal with those "nationalist" idiots, aka inferiority complex syndrome patients. Dalian had never been a Chinese city before 1945, and before late 1800s there was no Dalian at all - there was only a fishing village. Even this small village was not Chinese - it was part of Manchurian Qing Empire. Then it was leased to Russian and Japanese till 1945 when the Soviets kicked out Japanese and occupied the city.--Manchurian Tiger 02:32, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed) It is so pathetic of you to flatter Russian and Japanese while deriding Chinese. The existence of Dalian and relevant names are all listed in the above. (Personal attack removed) Zhang Qiang 15:14, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Please tell us, why do you want so badly to think listing Russian and Japanese names to reflect a city's true history is to "flatter" Russians/Japanese and "deriding" you? --Manchurian Tiger 16:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

This discussion is about how we should list the Russian and Japanese names, not whether ancient settlements in the area before Russian colonization should be considered to "be" Dalian. Whether such a "sameness" exists is a matter of semantics and nationalist sentiment anyways. Please get back on topic.

Also: Zhang Qiang, Wikipedia is not a place for you to spew racist BS. -- ran (talk) 18:35, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Wow, I go away for a few weeks and look what happens. What is going on here? Zhang Qiang this is not the place to distort history. It is the place to report history and let the user make their own judgments. Also it is not up to you to decide what should be deleted and what should stay. If you have context to add, please do but do not try ti insert your editorial opinions whether by inclusions or by deletions. As you probably know, many cities around the world suffered from foreign invasions and had their names changed either temporarily or permanently by the invading force. That does not mean that the historical name should be omitted from a history of the place.--California Tiger 17 November 2006

[edit] Cultural Life

The annual Dalian Beer Festival should deserve some mention Hanfresco 10:38, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

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