Talk:Dale Carnegie
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[edit] Advert Tag
Recently all material relating to the Dale Carnegie course was removed by an editor who considered it unencyclopedic. I have restored it, but am seeking a consensus for what to do with it long term. Please could I have some opinions: is info re the course unencyclopedic, in which case it should be removed? If it is encyclopedic, is it relevant to this article about Dale Carnegie, or should it have its own article? My opinion is that the course is an undeniable aspect of Western culture, and if there can be articles about videogames then there should at least be info on the Dale Carnegie course. I think we should keep the info, and consider splitting it into its own article. BreathingMeat 21:17, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Response:
Thank you for responding nicely. I would like to find a good alternative. Posting info about his course sounds a little out of place for an enyclopedia. It almost sounds like we are being marketed to. Hopefully we can work something out.
- I have put a tag on the page to invite further contibutions to this discussion. BreathingMeat 00:39, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
- I don't think the information about the course reads like an advertisement. It simply describes what happens in the course. However, the Books section feels pretty biased to me. Half the books there are described in a tone that sounds like it's straight out of the publishers' descriptions.
- So it reads like an advertisement. You are getting information about the books and the course in the tone of the books and course's content. I think it's right on the target for the intent of the courses. Frankly, I think the whole Carnegie stuff is just an early attempt at mind control or manipulative control over others. Besides that, I hate somebody using my first name at the start or end of every other sentence and always seeing people smiling. It makes me edgy.--TGC55 00:57, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
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- I can see how you could think that, and I still feel it is useful to have the information about the course, because it is one of the major things known about him. --Bear Eagleson 02:40, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Removal of advert tag
I would like to remove the advert tag now. Are there any objections? BreathingMeat 02:35, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the advert tag now. However, this article will need to be watched closely as it seems to be a particular target for advert-like text. BreathingMeat 18:19, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
- Where do I get a corespondence course on writing ad copy? This manipulation thing through written words sounds like the wave of the future. --TGC55 00:57, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Unfair criticism?
Having taken the course myself, I was surprised by the "manipulative" comment regarding holding a genuine interest in other people. My instructor went out of her way to focus on genuine interest, not fake interest, because A) It's not the right thing to do and B) People can tell the difference usually anyways. My personal experience has taught me that there's very few people I don't have a genuine interest in, because I like hearing other people's stories.
Honestly genuine interest is not a bad thing at all. It forces you to listen to other people more and people really do appreciate the positive attention (and often return the favor!).
Reply: Whether it's a fair criticism or not is not what is being reported here; the article simply states that it's something that critics say. Feel free to add some qualifying information to the article if you like. However, as an aside, I too have done the course and my instructor also stressed the importance of genuine interest. My only concern would be that there was no discussion on what to do if you cannot foster such an interest.
Comment: I was very disappointed to find such a promotion on an encyclopedia page. Being a long time reader of Dale Carnegie, I believe that information regarding the training course should be separated from the Dale Carnegie article; and that Carnegie's biography should be expanded. (It is irrelevant, but I was also surprised to find that there is no information about Dale Carnegie himself on the Dale Carnegie Training website.) Nikita N. 19:33, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
- I'm interested to know why you call it a "promotion". The information on the course is balanced imho, does not contain any direct advocacy, and has a criticism section - in fact other readers seem to be suggesting that the sections on the course are, if anything, too negative (though this is not something I would agree with). It could certainly be moved into its own article - in fact I have been considering doing this myself - but I doubt that would address the original objection you raise here. I agree that there is certainly room for more biographical information here. BreathingMeat 21:53, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
- Comment -- The review of the course seemed even handed. I think Dale Carnegie himself is worth being described in the encylopedia. I came to the site looking for more informaton about him, since I am reading one of his books. I am not particularly interested in the class. It seems this section should be shortened, with more emphasis on his biography. Mike
Comment:Promotional links can be useful, and I trust the readers of Dale are an enlightened crew who would not loose sight of the purpose of Wikipedia. For example, try as I might I cannot find a Chinese copy of "How to stop worrying and start living" for my poor dear old mother even though the book was suppose to have been translated into many different languages. I therefore appeal to the nobler motive of Dale's readers and challange you all to find out where it could be. Alas Dale's homesite have been neglected, which would never have happened if he was still alive. Would the winner of that quest please post the result here for the benefit of International readers ? kencheung26@hotmail.com
You can go to http://www.books.com.tw/exep/prod/booksfile.php?item=0010110374 and purchase a copy of the book in Chinese.
[edit] Official word on death
I dont understand what does this mean??
"The official word from Dale Carnegie & Associates, Inc is that he died of Hodgkin's disease on November 1, 1955."
Is this official word included in every biography of a person who is dead.There seems to an hidden effort to give credence to some urban myth. There is this reference from NYTimes articles which should suffice to remove any doubts I guess:
http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/1124.html
Even if there is a controversy, why doesnt the article discuss it in detail rather than just making a sarcastic comment like that.
- I made reference to the suicide rumours when I wrote the original text, but the suicide rumours have since been deleted from the article, so now it reads strangely.
- The link you supplied doesn't specifically say what Carnegie died of, and the only source I have found for the Hodgkin's Disease information is though conversations I have had with representatives of Dale Carnegie and Associates, Inc. Now, this corporation that makes money on the name of the late Mr Carnegie may or may not be the most reliable source of information, so I did not present the information as fact. I have attempted to be as honest as I can in providing information on Dale Carnegie's death, which there had been considerable demand for. BreathingMeat 22:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Original Research Tag
The Criticism section now reads like an argument, with both sides citing "some critics" or "proponents" more than real people. BreathingMeat 19:33, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Aye, you’re right. What would a discussion be without proponents and critics? The comment has been moved to a better place (in the Dale Carnegie Course section). Marksez 16:55, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
What is the significance of “the philosophy of responsibility assumption”? After reading the definition at the link of what responsibility assumption means, I don’t see a connection or understand what the nature of the criticism related to it would be. Marksez 17:28, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
