Talk:Daito-ryu aiki-jujutsu
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[edit] Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art add yourself!
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Just a few ideas,
I think the general entry for Daito-ryu is pretty good however I'd like to see it expanded a bit and have something more added concerning the techniques of the art rather than just arguments between different groups about rightful succession.
The current entry states that Takeda Tokimune did not appoint a successor, which is true according to all the sources which I have read from places like Aiki News/www.aikidojournal.com and from what I heard while studying the art in Japan. Later it mentions the 'mainline' of Daito-ryu and identifies neither Kondo's Shimbukan organization or Kato's Daito-kai organization as representing the 'mainline'. This is bound to raise some eyebrows as they are the two groups who argue the most that they represent the mainline; Kondo as having the greatest claim in terms of licenses and Kato and Arisawa having the greatest claim in terms of time directly under Takeda.
It is probably better to avoid the use of the term 'mainline' altogether as it tends to be used to label other traditions as somehow illigitimate while all the people we are mentioning here have long associations with Takeda-sensei.
It is my feeling that it would be better to keep an encyclopdia entry inclusive of all true information rather than as a vehicle for the promotion of a particular perspective.
Matt
- Matt There is so much room for expansion on this article - please do. I was also thinking that the Aikijujutsu article should be merged with this one. I did not put in the merge tag for before I had some input. What do you think?Peter Rehse 00:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Peter- I also find it curious that the "aikijujutsu" is a redirect of "aikijutsu" when the former is the name of an art and the latter is not used that way to my knowledge in Japan. -I have seen it used in Blackbelt articles when associated with people like Lovret however.
The only reason I could see for not merging them is that some other budo forms which do not claim direct association to Daito-ryu now use the term aikijujutsu. Personally I haven't heard any good evidence of budo forms which used the term predating Takeda Sokaku.
I was once told that the contemporary Takenouchi ryu uses the term to describe its jujutsu however I am doubtful that this was historically true.
Any thoughts on this?--Mateo2006 02:13, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
The way I see it we really only have two choices.
An article called Daito-ryu aikijujutsu (basically the Daito-ryu article moved) with only a few modifications. In that article we mention that the term has been used by some modern schools (with or without connection to Takeda). Terms like Aikijutsu (which also causes me pain), Aikijujutsu, and the several versions of Daito-ryu would link to that.
The second choice would be an article called Aikijujutsu which would be the Daito-ryu article with a bit more of a re-write. I like this option less. I'm going to leave the merge tag out till Monday and see if we have some sort of consensus for either way or leave alone.
The use of Aikijujutsu prior to the Takeda/Ueshiba get togeather in Ayabe has no historical basis. One of my teachers is a Professor of Budo History at Waseda University. He says that the name was suggested by certain high ranking military officers (he suspects Takeshita but is not sure which one exactly) and they were inspired by some popular books at the time. I just reread the yet to be published article on the subject and it really is interesting on how important the name change was vis a vis the relationship between the two men. It wasn't just a spur of the moment thing over a bit of sake.Peter Rehse 03:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
To me the former approach also seems to make more sense and seems less trouble. :)--Mateo2006 03:20, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I added material about the various branches of the art. I apologize if this breaks the flow of the narrative which was established. Will try to smooth it out later if that's okay.--Mateo2006 00:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Who me complain - this is the sort of thing the article was crying out for.Peter Rehse 02:36, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- On the subject of who is mainline I think the word 'mainline' is the wrong word to use. But maybe 'mainstream' seeing as Kondokai is the most "popular" form of Daito-Ryu. I'm sure there is a way to convey that one school is more popular then the other without reducing the others to inferiority. Gelsamel 02:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Tension between Kondokai and Takumakai
Being a Takumakai student I understand that there is alot of political tension betwen Takumakai and Kondokai as to whose replicate Sokaku's style most closely. From what I understand in Kondokai there is more jujutsu and less Aiki then in Takumakai (which stresses that if you use any amount of strength to preform the move then you aren't using Aiki properly).
Also I think the amount of techniques may differ from one school for the next. Here is an excerpt from the Takumakai website:
Shoden 118 kajo ura-omote
Aikinojutsu 53 kajo ura-omote
Hidenoogi 36 kajo ura-omote
Daito-ryu Aiki Nito-ryu Hiden
Goshinyonote 84 kajo jo-chu-ge
Kaishakusoudennokoto 477
Kaidennokoto 88 kajo
Also as I understand it Takumakai Aikijujutsu is the only Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu school to have Soden (Killing techniques).
With all the variations and things you can add on to the techniques there are some 2800+ techniques alltogether. Gelsamel 01:28, 15 November 2006 (UTC) (Forgot to log in :D)
Thanks for the additional input.
I know that Kondo and his affiliates refer to their line as "Daito-ryu Mainline" rather than 'Kondokan'. People who wish to acknowledge that Tokimune didn't select an official successor and wished for a family member to take over the art often refer to this group as the 'Shimbukan' which is really just the name of Kondo's dojo. Although this isn't really accurate either it is probably preferable to 'Kondokan' which I'm sure you are using only as a term of convenience.
I don't think that any branch of Daito-ryu has the 'aiki' market covered. Many groups such as the Roppokai would claim to have greater emphasis on aiki than other branches. Kondo at recent seminar staed that every technique in daito-ryu must have an element of aiki in it.
Although you subtitle is concerned with tension between the Takumakai and Kondo's group your submission doesn't really speak to this directly.
The additional technique list is great and of course still well short of the thousands of techniques often claimed by the art.
I have never heard of the Soden waza referred to as the "killing techniques" of the art, as of course many of the other techniques can kill pretty good too.:) The soden offially refers to the books which preserve the art as taught first by Ueshiba and then by Sokaku. There are also police restaint techniques and woman's self defense techniques featured the last couple of volumes. I believe that Ogawa of the Daibukan is the only person who teaches directly from Soden as his primary teaching method.
According to Mori sensei the Takumakai has evolved its own method for teaching techniques over the years which doesn't come directly from the manuals and Hisa Takuma also did not teach directly from the manuals. Interestingly The Nippon Kobudo film feature techniques recreated from the Soden for the purpose of their preservation on film I'm told. Teachers like Ogawa, Mori, Okabayashi and Kawabe-sensei (the most active senior teacher in the takumakai presently)were all featured on this documentary doing techniques with specific cues given to them by Hisa Takuma during the filming. Many of the techniques were not familiar to the participants at the time of the filming, or so I'm told.
Interesting stuff. :)--Mateo2006 09:40, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry about talking about different stuff under the title. I'm not too great at organizing my infomation haha. The Soden were refered to Killing Techniques by my sensei (rather, not as a direct translation) probably as a way of explaining the massive difference between normal waza and the Soden Waza. Sure a lot of other techniques involves snapping the neck but these ones seemed to be especially dangerous and violent.
- On the Takumakai website they say that they're the only Daito-Ryu branch which includes the Soden, which is interesting because according to an interview with Katsuyuki Kondo he received copies of the Soden.
- "I believe that you have practiced with several other advanced students of Sokaku Takeda Sensei. Would you tell us about these experiences?
- Since I have already talked about the headmaster, Tokimune Takeda Sensei, Tsunejiro Hosono Sensei and Kotaro Yoshida Sensei earlier, I won't mention them again now. I received instruction many times from Takuma Hisa Sensei between 1970 and 1973, and in 1972 he gave me copies of the eleven volumes of the Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Soden."
Also, just as some misc. info. Kawabe is visiting my dojo starting from the 1st of December I think. Which is quiet great considering we're one of two (three, but the thrid is only just starting up) dojos in Australia with a total of probably around 20 people (for the 2 dojos). Gelsamel 01:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Nice. Kawabe is great to train with from what I hear and a nice guy too.
Re: the Soden; I guess the difference is that Kondo probably doesn't teach the techniques from the Soden. But who knows? If he trained with Hisa then that training may have informed some of his approach.
There is a lot of great experience out there in many different places. :) --Mateo2006 01:27, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, my sensei tells me he is really nice and fun to be with. And that when you see him and get thrown by him you think "He'll never be able to do this, he is so small" but of course - he does. And when you're thrown by him it feels like you're floating and you won't know you've been thrown till you hit the ground :D. I can't wait! Gelsamel 07:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I was just graded Rokkyu :D, I've been doing it for 3 or 4 months now. They're going to send off the stuff to japan so they canwrite up a certificate. Hopefully I will get it when Kawabe-sensei comes down. Gelsamel 03:16, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Article Promotion
Still needs a pici though.Peter Rehse 05:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] And Takeda-Ryu?
I deplore the fact that "Aikijujutsu" directly leads towards Daito-Ryu; Takeda-Ryu is even older and hasn't its own website...
Response: The only traditional "Takeda ryu" with a verifiable history and lineage that I know of is a school of kyujutsu which specializes in archery while on horseback.
I believe that you are referring to the Nakamura-ha Takeda Ryu which most believe to be a modern composite art employing portions of Kukishin Ryu and other more modern arts.
When I was first living in Japan Nakamura-sensei was promoting his art as a sogo bujutsu rather than a school of aikijujutsu and referred to the empty handed grappling in his art as Takeda ryu aikido. I have seen others refer to portions of his curriculum as aikido and other portions as aiki no jutsu since then.
Some of the controversy, of which there is no shortage is discussed here:
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-15229.html
You see that the school has its own website as do several of its branches.
Don't take my word for it. Ask questions at places like Koryu.com or Hoplos who have scholars with legitimate credentials specializing the history of Japanese budo and bujutsu systems who have no vested interest in the answer. If you wish you should start a separate page on "Nakamura-ha Takeda Ryu" (which he doesn't refer to as an aikijujutsu system but rather as a sogo bujutsu sytem). Many may be interested in the teachings of Nakamura's system. I exchanged e-mails with a Tomiki Ryu aikidoka who trained with Nakamura-sensei and he was very satisfied and enthusiastic about his training there.--Mateo2006 22:49, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I also meant Maroto-Ha Takeda-Ryu, which was officially accepted by the DNBK (Dai Nihon Butoku Kai) on 2006. It is also the first Ryu to be registered under the denomition "Aikijujutsu".
Matt's Response:
Maroto-ha Takeda ryu is the invention of Roland Maroteaux student of Nakamura-ha Takeda-ryu who also studied Hakko-ryu before joining with Nakamura's organization and then, having problems with Nakamura, formed his own organization. From their own organization's information it appears as if this school is less than 10 years old. Any google search will give you this infomation.
This comes off the Maroto-ha website with English errors included:
"Roland J. Maroteaux, was back in the 70's the first european Shihan of a traditional jujutsu school (Hakko Ryu - derived also from Takeda traditions). He went back to Japan looking for a more traditional system as close as possible from an Aiki original source considered disapeared by the most practitioners. So he discivers takeda Ryu and Soke Nakamura, folowing a book from am library. He follows Nakamura Sensei in training for more then 10 years with no rank and in 1990 he is certified as Joden Shihan Takeda Ryu (6 Dan Aikijutsu, 5 Dan Iaido, 5 Dan Jodo). So he bacame the first outsider of the school and he is allowed to teach the school, in his own manner Maroto Ha - outside borders of Japan. Starting with 1998-99, Soke Nakamura grants the right of unique representative of Takeda Ryu in Europe to a 3rd dan Judo Imaf - Kobilza, with no rank in Takeda Ryu. The Kobilza is sueing Sensei Maroteaux for illegal use of the Takeda Ryu Logo in Europe. Contactated by Sensei Maroteaux, Soke Nakamura offers evasive explanations. Because Sensei Maroteaux also was against the high prices politics of Soke Nakamura, and specialy because he asked some discounts for East Europeans countries, Mr, kobilza speculated this information and made to Soke Nakamura an offer of mantaining high prices in exchange of his nominations as Chief Instructor for Europe. He even send many letters and faxes to all Takeda Ryu Dojo leaders (including me) promising favours too all who will quit the "fake" Sensei Maroteaux and join his new organisation. So mr Kobilza gets a quick jump from 3 Dan Judo IMAF, to Okuden Shihan, 7 Dan Aikijutsu Takeda Ryu, etc ...Sensei Maroteaux chose to quit Takeda Ryu nakamrua Ha and burns in public his official apointement from Soke Nakamura as leader of European Sobukai Takeda Ryu. Then he is practical forced to continue his own way of teaching the same school under the name of Takeda Ryu Maroto Ha."
The Dai Nippon Butokukai also registered Mr. Davey of the Saigo-ha tradition. This doesn't mean that the history behind a martial art has be confirmed as legitimate. This organization was orginally primarily a kendo governing body which was disolved after the second world war. It was revived on a small scale later. I used to train in Daito-ryu every week in the Budokuden in Kyoto on their premises. To be registered there doesn't really mean much. You can register new martial arts there.
I've seen some of Mr. Maroteaux demonstrations. There are some elements of good budo there however their history is a rather short one.--Mateo2006 18:14, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Keiko Techo
Because I have recently been graded Rokkyu I receive a copy of Keiko Techo 3rd Edition for Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu Takumakai English Version, I'm curious as to how legal it would be if I could post a few excerpts from this manual.
Also, last day of training with Kawabe-sensei today! He is so awesome :D Gelsamel 00:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Rengokai
We have a link to the Rengokai organization which I identified as a Saigo-ha lineage because they use the same term to refer to their art as the Saigo-ha which is not used by Kondo or Kato's group, nor used by the Takumakai (or legimate offshoots from Ohgami or Okabayashi's group), or the Kodokai (or the Roppokai or the Yonezawa offshoots).
Futhermore there is identification on their website of Saigo Shiro and Houei Yamashita as being Daito-ryu practitioners. That Saigo studied Daito-ryu is denied by major Daito-ryu figures such as Kondo and by the Kodokan where he began training at a very young age. I can't see why this website would identify these figures if they were not of this lineage.
Let's hear some dialogue on this.
Also registered posters are always taken more seriously than anonymous ones.--Mateo2006 05:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello Mateo2006;
Rengokai are not affiliated with any "saigo-ha" lineage which includes, but not limited to, Sogawa-sensei, Mr. Williams or anyone else claiming any type of lineage to Tanomo Saigo. I am well aware of the attempts to credit or discredit Sogawa-sensei and more than enough has already been said of Mr. Williams, so I will not flog that dead horse either. Adding "saigo-ha lineage" to the link is not only incorrect, but also unnecessary. We should strive as a community to ensure Wikipedia is as factual as possible editing out any content based on speculation, assumption or opinion and stating Rengokai are saigo-ha is clearly based on one of those. You are doing a great service keeping this article up to date and thank you for that, but please do not edit the link. Instead, if you have any questions feel free to contact me via the Rengokai website for any further clarifications. Thank you for taking the time to discuss this. Take Care.
Zain Fuji Yama Dojo
I'm not trying to discredit Mr. Williams as I don't know him. But I think we need more information here. What lineage does Rengokai belong to?--Mateo2006 02:49, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
There's no response here so I'm removing the link altogether. Maybe when Zain checks back in he can replace it and explain the group's lineage, which would be great.--Mateo2006 21:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Aiki-jujutsu an Internal art?
I heard that aiki-jujutsu is also an internal martial art (at least in the higher levels) similar to aikido.
Can anyone fluent in Japanese or lives in Japan confirm this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.98.128.230 (talk) 11:46, 4 March 2007 (UTC).
